I admire Rick in a lot of ways. I think he does a lot of things right. And I do think he desires to love everybody. I just wish he’d love all of us by not talking about homosexuality.
Also, Rick’s influence on Uganda’s Anti-Gay bill also further complicates his ability to talk about this issue, at least not without questions and skepticism.
Your thoughts?
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I’m a former homosexual and what he said wasn’t offensive until it was taken out of context. It’s interesting to note how even I am called a bigot when I say what the bible says about homosexuality…considering that I was there.
Well. Some people don’t agree that the Bible says what you believe it says, Will. So there’s that.
Chances are that you are a bisexual that is choosing to only form relationships with women at this time.
While sexual orientation isn’t as rigid as some people think it is, a complete change is improbable. That is why those involved with various “ex-gay” ministries, including the leadership and founders, tend to admit they were wrong several years after they were “healed.”
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/10/13/ex-gay-leader-john-smid-s-about-face.html
In other news, Pastor Rick Warren has had his 15 minutes. Isn’t it time to move on?
Good point. Human sexuality is extremely complex and is influenced by many factors. Free-will (or at least claiming such) doesn’t simplify it any more. There is no empirical data indicating a change in sexual orientation occurs.
The reason rational people discount your “there” experience is because:
1. You are lying about being there.
2. You are heterosexual and experimented a few times, doesn’t make you gay.
3. You are bisexual claiming to have changed when you just selected the other 50% of the population you are attracted to.
4. You are lying about the “former” part.
A bigot is someone who, for whatever reason cannot grasp the two most basic concepts of the Bible. Love thy neighbor as thyself (dont be an asshole to anyone) and treat others how you would like to be treated (dont be an asshole to anyone). You can pick apart any other part of the Bible you like, but if you cant achieve this extremely basic competence of human decency, then you deserve being called a bigot, because that’s what that word means. Someone who despises equality and equal opportunity and equal treatment (again the golden rule, treating others like yourself.. making the treatment equal..) I mean how much more does society have to break this down for you? How low can someone’s IQ be to not grasp these extremely basic concepts.
First you say:”A bigot is someone who, for whatever reason cannot grasp the two most basic concepts of the Bible. Love thy neighbor as thyself (dont be an asshole to anyone) and treat others how you would like to be treated (dont be an asshole to anyone).”
Then you say:
“How low can someone’s IQ be to not grasp these extremely basic concepts.”
That second one sure seems like something an asshole would say.
You = Will, not Bob.
Will, cmon man. Your giving us all a bad name.
I mostly just hope that Rick and every single person who feels the need to voice their opinion on homosexuality reads Justin Lee’s book, Torn. I have not read anything (and I’ve read quite a bit) that is as thoughtful and grace-filled and heart-rending as Justin’s book. Seriously, every single person involved in this discussion needs to read his book. Immediately.
yes.
I wouldn’t mind Rick Warren talking about homosexuality if he actually knew what he was talking about.
(Wait … “former homosexual”?? (above) … I have absolutely nothing to do for the next few hours, and yet … AND YET … I don’t have time to deal with that oxymoron.)
He has a very narrow and unscientific view of “source of authority.”
I’d love to hear Rick and Justin Lee sit down for a chat.
//AW
Yeah, he needs to just stop *attempting* to talk about homosexuality.
I particularly dont care what Rick Warren thinks. He can believe anything he wants…and that is fine and good. What Christians should not be able to do is restrict the ability of others Americans. Christians should not be trying to pass laws that require non-christians to live “biblically”. (which means according to THEIR controversial interpretation of what the Bible means)
Believe what you want—but let others do the same.
This is freedom of and from religion.
The problem here is that he has used his platform as an influential evangelical christian to take a stance on constitutional law in this country, and apparently elsewhere. When you back something like Prop 8 it is a distraction from ministry and it will be all you are asked about. People of differing views can coexist respectfully, but by backing prop 8 he completely misunderstands what it is LGBT and allies are asking for while also encouraging a political culture war. And as Christians, if you do not believe homosexuality is biblically acceptable, do you not also follow the part of the bible that says take the plank out of your own eye first? It is exasperating to me, as a christian, that we spend so much time dissecting the lives of others when we obviously have our own work to do.
Why would I, a straight woman, have anything to say to how a gay person should be living biblically? Life and sexuality are complicated, so I don’t think I get to have a judgement on other peoples sex lives…much as I don’t want someone dissecting my sexuality.
Its very simple really, love everyone as christ loved us. Also, does it matter? Does God love us less if we are right or wrong on this issue? If we are so fixated on this that we forget about the hungry, the abandoned, the marginalized because we are ‘defending marriage’ and having the ‘right’ interpretation of scripture is God going to recognize us or not know who we are?
If people are tired of hearing Warren talk about homosexuality and his take on it (God forbid he should be allowed to assert his opinion, because that’s all he said it was) then maybe all the shows (Huff Post and Pierce Morgan) and news outlets and blogs should stop asking him. Unless he completely changes his stance, we already know what he’s going to say. These shows just enjoy creating another opportunity to create a cultural/spiritual/relational divide between people. I didn’t find anything offensive in what he said. In fact, he said, “I don’t have it all figured out.” So lets give the guy some credit for not coming there like many conservative Christians and claiming that they “know” what the Bible says and they have a “clear” understanding of what is and isn’t sin. Warren is honest enough to admit this is HIS worldview and his interpretation of scripture.
Aleicia you have the wisest comment thus far.
“I just wish he’d love all of us by agreeing with me about homosexuality.”
Oops had a typo there Matt…fixed it for you. Always happy to help! 🙂
You’re the exact same thing as the conservatives you so love to bash on your site. The very same thing. You preface your blasts with “I really respect this guy but I think he should shut up because I think he’s wrong.” All you’d accept from Warren is unabashed agreement with homosexuality, just like all conservatives will accept is unabashed disagreement.
bobby: matt posted an opinion, and i think he’s a bit entitled to it; it is his blog, after all.and i don’t think he’s asking people to agree with him obstinately; rick warren, for all the time he spends talking about homosexuality (both prompted and not), tends to meander at best, or put his foot in his mouth at worst. with that in mind, and the fact that warren’s covertly helped with uganda’s “kill the gays” bill that came into being over the past few years, i think he deserves the scrutiny, especially with the profile that he has as a major-selling author and pastor of a church of tens of thousands.
that is to say he’s totally entitled to his publicly vague, nondescript views about gay people.
Bobby, Rick Warren does himself no favors talking about homosexuality. This isn’t about him agreeing with me or you or whoever. It’s about his platform as a pastor and how over the last several years he has run that platform through the social political mud because he has mixed it up with poorly addressed dialogues about homosexuality. His influence as a “pastor” has been limited and blemished because he keeps talking about an issue that he isn’t all that great at talking about. So you’re incorrect on your assumption. But that’s nothing new. I like Rick Warren. But I think he’s wrong on this topic, biblically, spiritually, and culturally. Sadly, history will likely remember Rick for being wrong on this subject and not for the good he has accomplished. But that’s beside the point, he has never won speaking out about this topic. I think he’d be better off if he didn’t.
Matt, your condescension is in full bloom. And that’s the point. You don’t say, I think this person is wrong, and here’s why. You say, this person shouldn’t even be speaking on the subject. His voice shouldn’t even be heard. Based on who’s court of opinion? Yours?
Tell me you still would have posted the video with a similar caption if Warren had said, I have no gay friends. I’ve never given a dollar to any gay cause or worked with any gay organizations, nor have I done a drop of research into homosexuality but I believe we should allow homosexual marriage and Biblically supported homosexual lifestyles.
What all of this has come down to is: Do you support the lifestyle or not? There is no middle ground or room for discussion. We want Yay or Nay, and that’s it.
Yay.
I really wish homosexuality wasn’t the hobby horse everyone has to ride on these days….I’m sick and tired of hearing about it from the fundies/conservatives and how its tearing at the very fabric of our society (as if the rampant sin ALSO mentioned in that famous Romans passage but conveniently ignored because the spotlight is always on homosexuality within the evangelical church aren’t contributing to that one bit)
Why not speak out about all the sin like pastors full of pride, deacons sleeping with other men’s wives, women gossiping, teenagers having sex and getting pregnant out of wedlock, lust, envy, and covetousness within the church (we gotta have that new LED sign just like the Presbyterians do, we gotta put that new addition on we gotta buy that 350,000 multimedia system we gotta build a big sanctuary with stadium seating just like the movie theaters…)
Meanwhile, Jesus is standing at the door knocking but nobody hears him.
Karen, does it occur to you that the reasons so many Christians talk about homosexuality is that they get asked about it every time they get onto these type of shows? Seems to me that the ones who disagree with them are the ones with the hang-up about the topic.
… does it occur to you that the reasons so many Christians talk about homosexuality is that they get asked about it every time they get onto these type of shows?
I believe Warren must have some knowledge of what questions he’ll be asked and has the right to reject questions and refuse to go on shows. I don’t think he’s being forced to subject himself to these questions.
That’s hardly the point.
*shrug* I think it is. Warren has the resources and the clout to move the conversation to other topics. He could refuse to go on shows where he’ll be asked about homosexuality. He could veto questions beforehand that touch on sexuality. He could launch his own show, he could only go on shows that he knows will be friendly, he could stick to his pulpit, etc.
One way or another, Warren has to want to keep talking about this, and not about issue like, for example, economic justice. Homosexuality must have greater importance to Warren than the other issues that Karen mentions. So I think Karen’s point still stands.
Karen,I do agree with you but as you and some of your commenters have eluded to I don’t agree that this burden falls on people like Warren. You will never get me to believe that he should just change the subject or come up with agreed upon questions before the interview or refuse to answer the question. That doesn’t work. The people who are doing doing the interviewing have a point they are trying to make just as much as Warren may be. People like him can refuse to make this an issue but interviewers will still bring it up, will still question their beliefs and will hound them to answer until they do. I’ve seen it. Even when people have agreed not to go there in an interview then we hear, “You said you didn’t want to discuss you beliefs on homosexuality. Why is that?” These interviewers have no boundaries. They are trying to get the story that they want to get. Warren is just doing his best to have an appropriate, honest answer prepared for when it does come up.
Sometimes the appropriate, honest answer is “I don’t know. I have said things about this in the past, but as I reflect on it, the more I realize I need to work on this one in my life. May we talk about something else now?”
If the interviewer returns, sit there quietly until the interviewer gets the message and talks about something else. Dead air doesn’t sell advertising.
Matt, I listened to this multiple times and honestly don’t see what your problem with it is. He says several times that this is the way he sees it, fully acknowledging that others have different perspectives. When the interviewer tries to put words in his mouth, he doesn’t take the bait (1;04 mark) and simply says that he doesn’t profess to have it all figured out.
It should also be noted that he didn’t go on Morgan’s program to discuss gay issues, but Morgan did the same thing he does to many christian leaders: he asks them about what they think of homosexuality. Some of them deliver horrible answers (see Osteen), but none of them should ever be blindsided, because Morgan (and others like Soledad O’Brien) always, always, always ask about homosexuality.
Im sure if these journalists were living in the 60’s they would ask about employment non-discrimination for blacks, desegregation of public schools, and marriage equality for inter-racial couples. This is the civil rights issue of our day – the same issues, a different group of people – employment, schools (bullying), and marriage. You should not be surprised that so many folks are interested in what current leaders think about the current issues.
I didn’t say I was surprised. I said that people who complain about Christian leaders always talking about this topic conveniently forget (or ignore) that 99% of the time, these types of clips show a response to a question not initiated by the pastor who’s doing the talking. Yet they post opinions about how the guy shouldn’t be spouting off his views on the topic.
By the way, Matthew, I do agree with you about the Uganda thing. I am not familiar with the extent of Warren’s involvment in sponsoring or endorsing that law, but if he has played a role, then it does complicate things.
I love Rick like I love Hitler. I dont. “Anti-Gay bill” is the understatement of the century.
I’m also unfamiliar with the Uganda legislation, but I personally thought this exchange was fine. He’s putting forth that he thinks homosexuality is a sin, which is an interpretation of scripture that a lot of Christians agree with. Some obviously disagree, but that’s Warren’s stance and I respect that.
I do however think he missed the biggest issue in the initial statement where the interviewer states: “God would create a sort of situation whereby someone could have feelings and desires that are natural to them but it’s still a sin.” I think it should have been restated that God doesn’t actually create any natural predilection for sin, no matter what you consider sin to be.