What do you think about unmarried intimacy? How about premarital sex?
WATCH THIS VIDEO
Did I Shave My Legs For This?
by Nicole Wick [XXXChurch.com!
When Matthew asked if I’d write something for sex week I figured I would give a nod to Chapter 1 of his book, What You Didn’t Learn from Your Parents About Sex and start my post with a Cliff’s Notes style run down of my sexual history.
1984 – My mom told me about the “birds and the bees”… literally
1991 – Had my first sexual experience
1991 – Got pregnant
1991 – Pregnancy led to my second conversation about sex with my mother
(Yes, 1991 was a very busy year for me)
1994 – Found Jesus and with him, my “second virginity”
1995 – Victoria’s Secret introduces the Miracle bra (Miracle indeed!)
1995 – Where did I leave that second virginity? (Don’t look, Jesus)
Over the next few years my Miracle bra and I hit the town together and had what, in the opinion of other 20-something’s, added up to a pretty good time. But deep down, it didn’t feel like I was “Livin’ La Vida Loca.” In fact the theme song for those years felt a lot more like Deana Carter’s “Did I Shave My Legs for This?”
As “popular” as I was during that period, it always felt like I was missing something. Like there should be more to sex and relationships than one liners and phone numbers written on damp bar napkins. I craved connection and intimacy, I just didn’t realize it yet. I didn’t want to wake up on a Saturday morning thinking, “Did I shave my legs for that?” any longer.
I wish I could say that this revelation led to finding my third virginity, or at the very least the use of a WWJD chastity belt, but it didn’t. In fact, I don’t think I really understood what God had to say about sexual purity, or the importance of sexual purity, until I was married. Here’s what I finally figured out (and what I hope my kids figure out much sooner than I did): two becoming one flesh is about more than being tangled up with another person. It’s about the unity and connectedness that we were created for.
I love what The Message says about this in 1 Corinthians 6:16: “There’s more to sex than mere skin on skin. Sex is as much spiritual mystery as physical fact. As written in Scripture, ‘The two become one.’ Since we want to become spiritually one with the Master, we must not pursue the kind of sex that avoids commitment and intimacy, leaving us more lonely than ever—the kind of sex that can never ‘become one.’ “
Pursuit of the type of sex that is about commitment and intimacy is difficult. I didn’t have it before I was married, and frankly we only have it after we’re married if we really work at it. But it’s worth the work, and as I’ve learned, it really is worth shaving your legs for.
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Premarital Sex
by Rob Stennett [
With sex week Jesus Needs New PR is opening the biggest can of worms around (I’m sure there’s a “That’s what she said,” joke somewhere in there). To tackle sex you need more then Dr. Ruth, more then someone to talk about the specifics of four-play, intercourse, orgasms, and finally spooning. Because this CHRISTIANITY. And if there is one subject we love to complicate its sex. Enter novelist and Christian culture expert Rob Stennett who somehow has to find an answer for the anonymous author who wrote this bold paragraph:
I’ve looked through the Bible and all over the Internet and haven’t found a real answer to my question…where in the Bible does it say it’s wrong to have sex before marriage? I understand adultery is wrong but it just doesn’t seem clear to me that it’s wrong to have sex when neither party is married…don’t get me wrong, I don’t think one night stands are okay. When I talk to my Christian friends about this, I either get “it’s in there” w/o any reference or “I just know it’s wrong.” All I can come up with on my own is that God created marriage and for sex to be between married people (but where does it talk about sex being only for married people?) And if it’s so wrong, why didn’t I feel guilty? I feel guilty about everything I do that’s the slightest bit wrong.
Wow. Okay, where to begin? I empathize with you. If evangelicals wrote a new, hip, and improved 10 Commandments surely: Thou Shalt Not Have Sex Before Marriage would easily be in the top 5. Yet, for us being so passionate about this the Bible isn’t a clear as it seemingly should be. So, let’s explore this question once again and stop every time there is a question mark.
I’ve looked through the Bible and all over the Internet and haven’t found a real answer to my question…where in the Bible does it say it’s wrong to have sex before marriage?
Well, here are a few of the passages in the Bible where we get the ideology:
- Flee from sexual immorality…he who sins sexually sins against his own body. (1 Corinthians 6:18-20)
- Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.” Hebrews 13:4
- I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.” 2 Corinthians 11:2 (presented as a virgin is an important idea, specifically in the Old Testament)
- To avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.” 1 Corinthians 7:1-2,
Clearly, if we are to take the bible at its word, sexual immorality is bad. But where is the, “Do not have sex before marriage verse?” Sure, it’s italicized and underlined that adultery, lust, and immorality are wrong. It says that we should avoid fornication and get a husband and wife. But what do we do with these verses. Well, for Bible believing people there seem to be two schools of thought:
- Flee from all kinds of evil
Enter I Kissed Dating Goodbye—about six different girls used this book to date Jesus instead of me when I was in high school. But it’s not just this book. Youth Pastors across America have championed this idea. And I can’t blame them. This is so clean and safe. Do not date. Do not spend your high school years like you are in a John Hughes movie. This rips the How far is too far? question right out of the playbook. You simply do not date and then at the appropriate age get to know a girl, her family, get married, and then figure out what goes where on the wedding night.
And let me say this, I know people who this idea has worked wonderfully for. They are the poster children for Kissing Dating Goodbye—and they’re great people, thoughtful, loving, and fun. But I also know people for whom this idea has horribly backfired.
2) Listen To Your Heart
Which brings us to the second crowd. Maybe a portion of the IKDG group realized that they simply did not have the control, discipline, desire, or whatever else to kiss dating goodbye so they kissed everything else hello. Most in this group are trying to follow scripture and they want to flee from immorality and lust. So, they thought, if I really LOVE him/her then how can I be immoral? Don’t you understand I love this person with all my heart? This is what the Bible was saying: sexual immorality is using someone but if you’re in love, then you aren’t using him/her you’re loving her/him.
The author is hinting at this line of thinking with his next question/point: I understand adultery is wrong but it just doesn’t seem clear to me that it’s wrong to have sex when neither party is married…don’t get me wrong, I don’t think one night stands are okay…
Well okay. Good. I really wanted to write this whole blog post without having to talk about the specifics of STDs. But I will say this about STDs—my guess is there’s a whole branch of the United States Government where Harvard graduates get together and come up with names for STDs. I mean who came up with “The Clap”? Gives me shivers.
But when I talk to my Christian friends about this, I either get “it’s in there” w/o any reference or “I just know it’s wrong.” All I can come up with on my own is that God created marriage and for sex to be between married people (but where does it talk about sex being only for married people?)
This is a great point. I bet if I gave a similar survey my married friends would give a similar response. I think your questions highlight some of the red flags about the way the Christians approach sexuality. Here are some problems and possible solutions:
- We Need To Create Dialogue About Sex For Singles Who Are Older Then 15
I think all if not most of us can agree that 15 year olds having sex is trouble. My wife will watch MTV’s Sixteen and Pregnant. This is the scariest show on television—scarier then True Blood and scarier then The View. It makes me understand why youth pastors beg and plead for high school students to not even be alone together.
The problem is once a high school student graduates they get into college or even their careers. They ask what now? And usually the advice is to get married as quickly as possible. But sometimes we can push couples into relationships that are wrong, or sometimes a person will say, “I’m 22. I’m just not ready to get married.” There needs to be more advice within church walls and Christian homes on how to date. What are the dangers of getting into a relationship too quickly or sitting around and waiting for the perfect person to appear? And what are the consequences of marrying the wrong person? Avoiding sexual immorality is fine and good, but sometimes we fight that so fervently that we sacrifice everything else.
- We Need To Not Treat Sex Like It’s The Worse Sin There Is
Yes, I am going to say premarital sex is wrong. We can try to argue around it, but there are far too many passages about the specifics of immorality, sex intended for marriage, and the dangers of lust and fornication to say it’s not a sin. The problem we can come to other Christians and confess our lies, addictions, and pitfalls. But we put sex on a pedestal. It is not a sin—it is the sin. We make sex so big and so sacred, we make it the forbidden fruit and then we get obsessed. We know we can’t think about it so all we do is think about all the time. This makes our relationships unhealthy, our marriages crumble, and our ministries collapse.
I will say this as well: I think there have been a lot of great relationships that have been ruined by premarital sex not simply because of the sex itself but because the guilt that came with it. If we could talk about it, if we could treat it like we treat other shortcomings, then maybe relationships could be salvaged and marriages would not be plagued with so much guilt and shame before they even begin.
This line of thinking and the author’s final question and statement brings me to my third point:
If it’s so wrong, why didn’t I feel guilty? I feel guilty about everything I do that’s the slightest bit wrong.
- Don’t Get All Of Your Sex Advice From Blogs
I don’t know what things you’ve done and why you feel guilty about them and not premarital sex. This is why you need someone in your life who you can ask these questions to face to face. I’m just an author writing are blog but blogs or magazines books don’t replace flesh and blood people to talk about this things with. I will say I don’t know if our own guilt (or lack of) should ever be the ultimate litmus test. The reality is these are complicated issues. We all need trusted friends or pastors to discuss them with.
We should be able to ask questions and have them asked of us. Yes, the good news is the Bible specifically say don’t have premarital sex. But it also doesn’t specifically say don’t use crack-cocaine. The Bible isn’t meant to be read as an ultimate list of do’s and don’ts, it’s meant to be book of guiding principals. God understood that he could not come up with a book that would comment on every vice we’d ever come up with, otherwise the Bible would read like this: Thou Shalt Not Wager More Then $100 at the Craps Table; Thou Shalt Not Use Sexual Toys Before Seven Years of Marriage; and so on. Instead he gave us the Bible to guide us, he gave us prayer, he gave us Jesusneedsnewpr, and he gave us each other to ask the difficult questions to.
Okay, that was exhausting. I’m going to get back to writing novels about safer subjects like the rapture and demon possessed people.
OK, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
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What do I think?
I’m SO glad I didn’t have any sexual experiences with anyone other than my now-husband. (Memories of “making out” with other guys were vivid enough…) I’m SO glad it’s the same for him. The argument against premarital sex is certainly strong just from the “save it for your future spouse” point of view. It’s worth the intimacy.
I’m also SO glad we got to know each other intimately during our engagement. (Granted, we took engagement more seriously than may people, I think.) Getting to know someone else’s body (and your own!) takes a long time, and it was nice to have the time to figure each other out pre-“official sex”. I can’t imagine going from “just making out” to intercourse on a wedding night. I’m glad we had several months to learn about one another, so that the “first time” really was comfortable and intimate and not scary or too foreign.
Matthew,
First, as many have already done, I’d like to thank you for sex week. 🙂 It is a good thing, having a forum for discussions such as these.
I find this most recent post particularly interesting as its topic is one that frequently crosses my mind these days. I am in a serious relationship with the man I believe I will marry. In fact, unless something downright crazy happens, I’m fairly confident we’ll be married by the year’s end. As we have grown closer in many ways (spiritually, emotionally, mentally, and even physically) there are definitely places, literally and figuratively, that we won’t be going until we’re married.
As you mentioned in your video, every couple is different, and I agree that what is acceptable for one couple might not be acceptable for another. I don’t think that there are lines for every aspect of a physical relationship. I do, however, believe that as Christians there are certain things God has called up to in regard to our “purity.”
Rules have such a negative connotation, but I’m sure as a father of a lovely little boy (sooo adorable!) you’d agree that rules serve a purpose. The boundaries I imagine you’ll enforce or even recommend for Elias are set out of love and a desire to protect. I believe this to be the same motivation for God’s boundaries for us, specifically in regards to sex.
It is through marriage that God says we are to become one flesh, and it is through sex that we experience this oneness physically. I maintain that it is a sin to have sex before marriage. Is it a more of a sin than lying, cheating, or stealing? Perhaps not. It is, however, a failure in obedience to God’s design and plan for sex, a design and plan that would have a couple commit their hearts, minds, and bodies wholly to one-another and to no one else.
I would submit that problem #2 here (treating sex as The Sin) is a huge factor in the large number of abortions among churched teens. Why admit The Sin and walk around with a blinking neon “A” on your belly when you can quietly do The Other Sin and no one has to know? There’s a difference somewhere between “discourage” and “demonize”, and the church needs to find it.
I may be outside your typical demographic but I am a single woman (divorced), age 45 and have been single for 10 years. I find it sort of hmmm… odd? maybe that’s not the right word, but it seems every time this subject is mentioned, the word “premarital” is used, as if it’s assumed you WILL be married, or the relationship you’re in is leading up to marriage. Frankly I doubt I’ll get married again, though I was married for 14 years.
I did not have sex before I got married, and dated my husband-to-be for 4 years before we got married. It was a decision we made about our relationship and stuck to it. (BTW, to me, sex = intercourse.) So he was my one and only until I was a newly single adult.
Since then, though, it’s been a different world. I really don’t want to say what I do or don’t do now, or what I think is right or wrong, or what I know I can show the Bible to say. I guess I’m still not ready to confront that head-on. Just wanted to make the comment that there is a huge population of Christian adults who were married, with sex being a normal part of life, and are now divorced, and in their 40’s and 50’s or more and the whole “premarital” idea doesn’t have the same impact, as we’re not necessarily looking to get married.
Another BTW, my sex life during marriage and after marriage are vastly different. Sad to say but it’s been so much more enjoyable post marriage (understatement!). However, I know that should not play into my decision of doing something even if I know it to be Biblically wrong. I’m just saying…
…there is a huge population of Christian adults who were married, with sex being a normal part of life, and are now divorced, and in their 40’s and 50’s or more and the whole “premarital” idea doesn’t have the same impact, as we’re not necessarily looking to get married.
Anonymous, whoever you are, I just wanna say that you just hit the nail on the head for me.
Thanks for bringing that very important point up!!!
Well, that last paragraph hits home, as well…and I’d venture to say it does for MANY of your 40+ readers out there.
/cue the judgment stones.
@gingersnaps no stones allowed, it’s all glass houses around here
And anonymous is right. People are living longer lives these days. Some will have several monogamous long-term relationships throughout their lifetime.
I know several retirees who were raised with very traditional, Christian values who are choosing to NOT get married and still be together. If they marry, they lose their benefits, their only form of income, and they are now too old to work.
Anyway, who am I to tell grown adults who they should or shouldn’t sleep with? That’s a personal choice and none of my business. Reality check!
Christianity all over the world makes a big fuzz out of premarital sex. For young people it seems to be some ultimate test. If you pass, it’s holiness all over and all good things will eventually follow. But if you fail, it’s like the worst thing ever. God will punish you. He will take away all your gifts and demons will buzz around you all day long. And I am not exaggerating. Some people really seem to think that way.
I don’t like black’n’white attitudes around this issue. That’s partly because of my personal experiences. When I mention that premarital sex might not be so bad, people pretty much always mention STD:s, unwanted pregnancies, sacredness of marriage and stuff like that. It’s like premarital sex is always just about lust and never about commitment. But I think there is a gray area.
First of all. What is marriage? How it is defined in Bible? I think there is social construction known as marriage and that there is deeper bind between two people also known as marriage. For me, sex binds two people together and in eyes of God that makes them married. Therefore there is no such thing as premarital sex. Because marriage is preferably unbreakable, thinking this way doesn’t lead to wild sex orgies if you value marriage and commitment. It just doesn’t give that much credit to social side of marriage. I mean that it doesn’t matter if marriage is legal or blessed by pastor.
To tell you the truth, my thinking this way and my then girlfriend thinking totally differently (that getting married and totally committed is something that happens in church) caused some of the worst stuff that has ever happened to me. We were both virgins, but rather old (both over 25) when we started dating. I wasn’t in a rush for sex. I had my conviction that sex means that I will be with her for the rest of my life. She, member of some sort of fundamentalist evangelical church, however wanted sex so much, that much sooner than I thought our relationship will lead to sex, it did. (I don’t go into detail why she wanted sex so much. I just want to say that it wasn’t her fault in anyway. There were mental issues and child hood stuff that made things a lot more complicated that I were aware at that time.)
Well. I think sex binded us together. I really felt being “one flesh” as a spiritual thing. We were going to get legally married soon. Because she had a bit fragile mind (not that mine was much stronger), I didn’t want to do things too fast. That’s why we didn’t marry right away. But we lived much like married couple. Everything was pretty much okay – for me.
Then she got so afraid of judgemental attitudes from her church, that she went literally mad. She really feared demons. She feared that she was going to Hell. She feared that God will take away her spiritual (she was and is very charismatic) gifts and so on. She went suicidal and she was in mental hospital for some time.
Problem was not sex itself. Problem was attitudes towards sex.
I don’t know how things would have turned, if I had said “no”. We might have broke up after few months. Or we might now have some 110% perfect sex life. I don’t know.
I think one the problems was that were not on the same level on our thinking. I still think same way about “premarital sex” and she still feels somewhat guilty about her “impurity” back then. I believed she was as committed to our relationship as I was, but she later told me that she hadn’t actually thought about it all. For me our actually marriage wasn’t that big thing anymore (after all I had promised to be with her for the rest of my life already), but to her it was. With proper “no sex before marriage” approach, this mismatched thinking may not have caused such issues.
But still. I think sex itself didn’t cause any of the problems. It was that crazy fuzz and buzz around sex.
I am sorry about this long comment. I am also sorry about possible bad english. I am from Finland.
But thanks for Sex Week! Even though it’s way too much stuff for me to follow at once.
– Jani
OK, so just because there’s a story about something in the bible it means that God condones it? So what are your thoughts on polygamy (David, Solomon, etc.)? What about animal sacrifice (Israel)? Lying (Esther, Isaac, etc. etc.)? Suicide (Samson)? Betrayal (Judas)?
Here’s the verse (1 Corinth 7:1-4) – ” 1 Now concerning the things of which you wrote to me:
It is good for a man not to touch a woman. 2 Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband. 3 Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.”
For me it’s two fold. First, I had sex very young, I was 15, and I was sure I was in love. BUT of course that relationship ended not long after he got what he wanted. Then I did have sex two other times with two other guys for a total of 7 times before I was 22yrs old. Yes, I counted. SO by the time I met my husband at age 27 I had gone 7 years without sex and it was always a struggle. You know what they say, once you open that can of worms..well, that is very true, hence why it’s important to wait till your married. But anyway, when I met my husband at age 27, we didn’t wait and I felt extreme guilt. That was 15 years ago. I love my husband now more today then I did then, way more. He’s super hot, loving and I can say without any hint of a lie in my heart that I wish I had never had sex with anyone but him. We serve together, both have a heart for Orphans and God has used our past.
The worst part of having had sex with anyone besides my husband is that memories like to come back and torture you. I honestly wish I had never been with anyone but my love, my life partner, my husband.
When young people want to know our story, I hesitate to tell them all of it cuz we certainly are not the couple pastors want kinds acting like. but it is our story, we love each other and God way more so I tell it.
“First of all. What is marriage? How it is defined in Bible? I think there is social construction known as marriage and that there is deeper bind between two people also known as marriage. For me, sex binds two people together and in eyes of God that makes them married. Therefore there is no such thing as premarital sex. Because marriage is preferably unbreakable, thinking this way doesn’t lead to wild sex orgies if you value marriage and commitment. It just doesn’t give that much credit to social side of marriage. I mean that it doesn’t matter if marriage is legal or blessed by pastor.
I think this is quite interesting, I’ve heard this standpoint before. If whoever wrote this is reading my comment, I’d like them to hit me with an email. Not to argue- I’d just love to hear more about this belief…
Anyone else have thoughts like that? I’ve always wondered if God’s view on marriage is the same as society’s [legal documents, being blessed by a pastor]. Seeing as to God’s viewpoint is usually radically different from society’s, I think it’s a worthy question to ponder. Any thoughts?
My Rant, Part I:
I have much in common with Anonymous @ 2:36 P.M.: I’m 43, dated my husband for 5 years holding strictly to the idea that sex equaled intercourse, waited until the wedding night for THAT, was married for 14 years, was divorced, have been single for 6 years, and have significantly struggled with having to rein in the sexual parts of me that were free to roam within the sanctity of marriage for 14 years. (And I thought I was the only one in the older demographic around here…)
I have dated 3 people since my divorce and am currently in a committed relationship that looks as if it might result in marriage. I cannot tell you how confusing it is to try to make sense of some things as a once-married, now-single Christian woman.
For one thing, after the divorce, I found people prying into my sexual life “reminding” me not to invite my dates into my home after a certain time, to maintain separate hotel rooms if there was a weekend getaway, and to “stay as far back from the edge of the cliff as possible,” etc.
The “accountability for singles” thing gets SO OLD. Especially when the people prying are usually married and banging each other all the time.(Remember I’m single now and not “allowed” to have sex, so suddenly I forget what marriage is REALLY like and assume that all my married friends are getting it on 24-7 with flavored gels and vibrating gizmos and techno music.) :^)
It’s kind of like reaching into your wadded paper bag while watching your best friend in Kindergarten open her glittery lunchbox, eat her mom’s famous hot fudge cake, and lick her fingers with glee while she says “Your mom must love you a lot to give you all those yummy prunes!” Whenever I get one of the dating “warnings” or “questions” I feel like saying, “Uh, yeah, I’m keeping everything all zipped up. How about you guys, seen any good porn flicks lately? Been to any good Swinger’s parties? You know, I could swear I saw you two coming out of the XXX store over by Subway…doing anything I should know about?” And then James 3 explodes in my head….and I bite my tongue. (usually)
In Christian circles people are always trying to ascertain what category you fit into and what your boundaries are. Okay, to some extent I understand that kind of thinking–we all want to know if what we believe and are doing is anywhere remotely close to what everyone else believes and is doing. I guess that’s just human nature.
But just yesterday I was taking a quiz about modesty and women’s apparel and my answers could not be submitted until I answered the question of whether I was single and not sexually active, single and sexually active, or married. I tried to skip the question, but it was required to participate in the survey. I tried to check all three choices, but the system didn’t like that. Finally, I decided since my boyfriend and I kiss alot while I am touching his ever-so-sexy, chiseled biceps and I get all tingly feeling during these moments, I must be sexually active! (Anne, if you’re reading this, now you know which of MPT’s readers left the snarky comments on your survey. In retrospect, I think I might have been too quick to take out my single-woman frustrations on you and I feel bad about not being very kind. James 3 doesn’t always explode in my head when I need it to.) I just don’t understand the fascination Christians seem to have with categorizing people…and their beliefs.
My Rant, Part II:
Another thing that is difficult about being newly single and old (I mean older…) is that I no longer buy into what other people tell me the Bible means. Now, I want to go read it and figure it out for myself. I want to delve into a whole bunch of translations and word studies and commentaries. And I really care more about what God thinks than what my Sunday School teacher thinks. Oh, what a difficult path that is!
In my research into the Biblical phrase “sexual immorality” I’ve discovered that 9 times out of 10 (or maybe 10 times out of 10) it refers specifically to beastiality, homsexual activity between men, prostitution, taking advantage of a party who has not consented freely, ritualized temple sex with pagan priestesses, or adultery. Other than the phrase “it is better to marry than to burn with passion,” I see no clear reference to sex between two consenting unmarried adults being sinful. (Side bar: Some of us burn with passion all the time whether we are single and not sexually active, single and sexually active, or married! Marriage won’t cure my passion.)
In addition, Scripture (at least in the Old Testament) hints at the idea that the act of sexual intercourse itself may be what God considers “marriage.” Now that opens up a whole can of worms for people who have had multiple partners–does that mean they have a whole bunch of husbands or wives running around?
Also, in Bible times people married young. It was common for girls to marry between 13 and 15 and for men in their early 20s. Nowadays puberty is setting in as early as the ages of 8 and 9 in both boys and girls, and we want kids to wait to get married until they “know themselves” and have gotten an education–usually around the mid-to-late 20s. That’s almost 20 years of “What do I do with all these hormones?” It’s a little different than in Bible times.
So, all that said, I’m with you, MPT. I don’t think Scripture draws a definitive “Do NOT cross this before marriage” line. And, I’ll say that I can’t scripturally support it, but my opinion is that sometimes a physical relationship before marriage can be a GOOD thing.
Okay, rant over.
RiverJordan, here’s what I think about that…
There’s a reason God said “marriage”, “husband” and “wife”, and not “a committed relationship”. Yes, I understand that dating was much different when the Bible was written, but God knew we’d be reading it now and, I believe, wrote it accordingly!
I know people who have been in serious, loving, committed relationships for many years and seem to be very happy. I’m not saying that you cannot have a rewarding relationship without a marriage certificate.
However, having that “piece of paper” makes it seem final, serious…it makes you really think about what you’re doing.
Also, if you really are that in love and committed to someone, why NOT have it made legal and on paper? Why not take every step possible to deepen the security and meaning of your relationship?
ttm: Wow, I SO could have written your comments word for word!!! I heart you for your transparency and for speaking up for us divorced over 40 ladies!! *hugs*
GingerSnaps: All of your comments this week have resonated with me as well. Hugs to you, too. :^)
As a divorced (but still under 40) chick…I gotta say, I hear you, too, ttm.
I waited until I was married to have sex, and then I had lots and lots of really bad sex. Traumatically bad sex. For years.
I got divorced.
Then, I had a little friends with benefits sex. And the sex was great. In fact, it restored my faith in sex and went a long way towards erasing many of the fears I had built up with years of really bad sex.
I write that not as a confession nor as an endorsement to go screw your friends. It just is what it is.
Matthew the best talk i have ever heard you give was at elmbrook…and your message was “it is supposed to be a journey…..together. I loved that because that sums it all up…it’s not supposed to be a test….or keep going from person to person…to see how many people you can be with….god wants it to be a journey …just like life..together with the Special person….for the rest of your life……debbie
Hey this is Anonymous from 2:36 (hehe, looks like I have a new code name now!). I appreciated the comments and stories from my “sisters” here. Sounds like we have had similar experiences. Hmm, I don’t have lots to say in response other than I was quite curious to see if others might chime in on my post, and yes you did. And in reading everyone else’s thoughts, this definition of “marriage” and the study on the words about sexual immorality are new thoughts to me. The weird thing is, I just don’t feel the guilt that I think I’m supposed to! ha. I have a lot of Christian friends, but they don’t really do anything like “hold me accountable.” And I’ve dated a number of Christian guys in these last ten years, and I bet you barely two of them said they were planning on not having sex until they got married (again).
I’ve done the friends with benefits thing too, which is an interesting concept. It does seem to meet a primary need, but I’m sure you’d agree with me it really doesn’t truly satisfy. Of course we were made for intimacy – the kind that includes real vulnerability, trust, love, growing together, adventures (like MPT’s “journey” idea), commitment, etc. And of course ultimately that’s what I would like. And I think the longer I go with sex being something less than that, the more I settle and believe that that’s just fine.
So.. hmm… I don’t have a lot of answers. More like a lot of observations. One thing though – I don’t hear many men (even Christian ones) saying they truly long for the commitment, love, blah blah blah etc., that we women say we equate or should require before sex is involved. They just plain ol want it anyway. If men can live pretty happily with sex being mostly for fun, given that it’s still in the right and respectful context, then why can’t we women?
Ok is that a stupid question or what? haha. Though I’m actually pretty serious about that. Hmm…?
Well, my sisters, I just went on a rant over at the sex toys post…you may want to chime in…or not…
http://jesusneedsnewpr.blogspot.com/2009/08/q-about-sex-toys-plus-giveaway.html
So, I’ve been reading the blog for a few days. I linked to it from one I read every day written by one of your guest posters. I think open and honest talk with other Christians is long overdue on this topic. I think we have done children a disservice in the church by not having frank discussions and not giving them the opportunity as parents to ask what they need to.
However, on this post, in particular, I am troubled. Some of the other posts have a the same troubling flavor, but not quite as strong. What troubles me is that under the guise of honesty and openness, we have dropped the absolutes.
Absolute #1- Premarital sex is a sin. It is every bit as much a sin as extramarital sex. Saying premarital sex is bad is not the same as saying sex is bad. That is just not true. The problem with turning a black issue into a shade of grey is that we are called as Christians to be set apart, Holy, even as God is Holy.
I realize that MOST people, Christian or not, do not make it to the marriage bed with their virginity intact. The answer is not to say it isn’t wrong so they can enjoy marital bliss. The answer is repentance and acceptance of the grace that covers our sins that Jesus poured out on Calvary. It’s not legalism. It’s Freedom. It’s Mercy. It’s Healing. And it is Absolute #2.
When we teach our children premarital sex is bad, we must teach them also that God will still love them and will forgive them if they ask, and that we also will follow God’s example on this. We should encourage them to come to us with their mistakes and be the example of the Godly parent in forgiveness and not the worldly doctrine of tolerance on this issue.
It troubles me that Christians are buying into the world’s doctrines of No Absolutes. I also believe that sin hides in the dark and cannot exist where light is, so I think open discussions are long overdue and necessary. On this, I applaud this blog. On the other point, I ask that we hold each other accountable to the Absolutes of the Bible and do not waver.
kablot spot, would you please provide the Scripture verses that explicitly state that premarital sex or sex between a consenting unmarried man and a consenting unmarried woman is sin? Where does the Bible say that?
If you quote verses that use the phrase “sexual immorality,” can you explain exactly what that phrase means? What did it mean in the Greek language in the context of that day, and did it get translated correctly into our language? When Paul gives warnings about the “sexually immoral” could he have been referring to some of the cultural things going on in his part of the world at that time…like people going to pagan temples to engage in sex with priestesses or men using their young servant boys as sex objects?
If something is absolute, it can be proven, right? One thing I am really struggling with in my life right now is that so many Christians give “black and white” answers like yours, but then when you ask them to support those positions with proof, it all ends up looking quite gray.
I was raised with those absolutes and sometimes I still want to believe them (because it is easier!), but I can’t with any intellectual honesty prove them anymore. The older I get, the more gray I see in Scripture. The more troubled I am by the way Christians gloss over things with a “that’s what the Bible says” without really going back and looking at the original words. The more frustrated I am that God didn’t really make things easier for us to understand (and of course my own speculation is if it was all so cut and dried, we might stop seeking answers through Him and with Him.)
But because the Bible isn’t easy to understand, we end up cherrypicking–enforcing the passages we like or don’t struggle with and ignoring the others. For example, Scripture says women should be silent in church and not be allowed to speak. Really? I don’t know any church that enforces that guideline.
There are Christians who say it’s absolutely wrong for divorced people to remarry (some say if they do, God will punish them forever in Hell). Others make exceptions for remarriage.
You might say Scripture is clear about lying. Thou shalt not lie, right? Yet, the Hebrew midwives and Rahab were all rewarded for lying and deceiving. How about Thou shalt not kill? Well, Jael drove a tent peg through Sisera’s head while he slept in her tent (some even speculate that other things went on in that tent before he slept) and had songs written about her wonderful deed.
God told prophets in the Old Testament to marry prostitutes and to cook their food over human dung (which were clear violations of the law He Himself had given). In the New Testament, Peter was told to start eating “unclean” food, and Paul, after publicly chastising Peter for preaching that converts to Christianity MUST be circumcised, went on to insist that his own “intern” Timothy be circumcised before doing outreach work with him.
In some places people are told to put their brethren out of the church, yet another Scripture says no one should answer to anyone but God who is the only master.
So many things in Scripture just scream “GRAY AREA” to me! And it’s frustrating…If you can see it so clearly, why can’t I? Please connect the “unmarried intimacy is sin” dots for me. Please? Then it will be one thing I CAN prove while I struggle to make sense of the rest of Scriptural paradox…
ttm, once again…I am completely blown away at how similar we are. THEN, I go to your blogger profile to find you are from Miami! I am originally from there…born & raised! I would like to maintain contact with you on e-mail if you feel comfortable doing so (if not, no worries whatsoever!) my e-mail addy is: GingerSnapsTN at gmail dot com. 🙂
Talking about absolutes, i am reminded of Exodus 22.
“16 “If a man seduces a virgin who is not engaged to anyone and has sex with her, he must pay the customary bride price and marry her. 17 But if her father refuses to let him marry her, the man must still pay him an amount equal to the bride price of a virgin.”
in terms of absolutes, I *believe* that there is a world of difference, consequence-wise, between a couple of horny people who are otherwise not married and adulterers.
I don’t buy into the extrapolation that if you have sex with someone who is not going to be your wife or husband, that constitutes adultery because it is (or will be) someone else’s spouse.
I don’t buy into the establishment of artificial boundaries, because they are man-made and only serve to create guilt.
FTR, I am a married but separated man. After our long marriage, the only conclusion that is reasonable for either of us is divorce. I do not intend to have sex between marriages (if that happens again). I will say though that much of that is driven by the pain that I personally experienced as a result of my stbX holding me fully responsible for our pre-marital encounters. Even though we had “dealt with it” in some fashion numerous times, it was still held up to me after 20 years of marriage as one of the reasons that we had such a miserable sex life. FTR again, we were both active prior to knowing each other: her as a believer, me not.
I do think the bible directs against sex outside of marriage (not just premarital, extramarital, supra-marital, meta-marital…okay, I am getting carried away 😉 ). However, I also believe that if a young couple is embarking on marriage, that they had BETTER be having a hard time keeping their hands off of each other. If there is a disconnect, even at that time, I’d consider there to be a looming problem.
[/ramble]
There are absolutes. Try as we might to believe otherwise, Scripture is quite clear on this issue.
* Marriage is the tangible illustration of Christ and his church. That is a forever and exclusive relationship. All else is idolitry (spiritual adultry). When Israel and Judah dabbled with other gods, they were commiting spiritual sex acts outside of their spiritual marriage to God. It’s all there in Ezekiel.
* Did not our Savior himself teach that to “look at a woman lustfully” was the same as committing full-blown audultry? To LOOK! That’s it. The same goes for anger/murder, etc.
When it comes to “grey areas” in Scripture, the rules are generally tighter than we might think, not looser. Our God is a Holy God who does not dabble around the edges.
* When the NT refers to “sexual immorality” it is usually the Greek porneia, which is a very broad term for sexual sin that sweeps together just about all forms of sexual conduct outside of marriage.
In 1 Cor 7, how do you avoid porneia (fornication/sexual immorality)? You get a wife. It doesn’t get more clear than that. If it meant beastiality, etc, getting a wife isn’t the solution. Getting a wife solves having sex outside of a marriage.
God’s standards are higher than ours, not lower.
Praise be to Him for Grace when we (I) fall short.
StuK,
I’m glad you chimed in on this. How unfair of your wife to hold you solely accountable for the messing around you did together prior to marriage. That just doesn’t seem right. As long as there was no coercion, it would seem both parties share in the responsibility for that.
Sometimes I think the church encourages this damaging type of thinking by teaching young women that they must be the sex-guards keeping the dirty-minded scoundrels (men) away. They must downplay their femininity, and in the process they lose the innocence of enjoying their own beauty. They must always keep their guard up and make sure that they are the thermostat keeping things “cool”. Usually a woman doesn’t want to keep the room any cooler than the man (well, at least until menopause) and when she lets that guard down (I mean if she really loves him, he is starting to look more and more like a friend and lover to her than a dangerous pirate out to ravage her booty.), it’s easier to say it was HIS fault.
If she says it was HER fault she gives up all sense of identity. She can’t be the dirty girl she is because she’s a Christian. She can’t be the Christian girl she is because she’s dirty. So who the hell is she? She becomes (at least in her own mind) a victim. And she can get past it easier if she can get away from the perpetrator which is impossible if the perpetrator meets her in the mirror each day.
I agree with you that an engaged couple ought to have a hard time keeping their hands off each other or something’s wrong. And I’m sure if you ever do date and marry again, you’ll have quite a few red flags to watch out for. I’m getting pretty good at spotting them a mile away now, too.
By the way, what does stbX stand for? I don’t think I’ve ever seen that before.
Thanks for commenting. I’m still curious as to your Scriptural rationale for “sex is only for married people”…but I highly doubt any comment will help me solve my own questions with that.
Jeremiah of TH, I’m thinking about what you wrote. I’m sure I’ll be back to comment later (if you are still reading then), but I just wanted you to know that what you have written is working its way around my cerebral matter. Thanks for offering your answers to my questions. I appreciate that you want to help clear things up for me. :^)
Warning: Rabbit Trail Ahead!
ttm,
Usually a woman doesn’t want to keep the room any cooler than the man (well, at least until menopause)
That wasn’t the case for me. My menopause was surgically induced, but menopause nonetheless. I always hear horror stories of how post-menopausal women lose interest in sex. Well, gentlemen, I’m here to give you hope. For me, the exact opposite happened.
If this happens to your partner, PLEASE lovingly encourage her to see her GYN, because there is hope through hormonal therapy! God has blessed us through science…and science & spirituality can and do co-exist beautifully! You can have an abundant sex life (and ladies, an even BETTER one) after menopause!
Also, ttm, stbX = “soon to be Ex” 🙂
Driving home from work it occured to me…
I’m not here to judge anyone, beyond myself and most Americans, but what ever happened to the fruit of Self Control?
I’m as bad at it as the next guy/gal. We don’t have to wait for anything in this culture.
If my wife died or left, my sex drive wouldn’t shut off, but my moral responsibilities to my Lord wouldn’t suddenly go away either. Married sex would still be to my mind the only God-ordained sex around, just like before I was married and I had to excercise self-control.
Back from the auto parts store. Just to be clear, I have plenty of areas I still have to have self-control as a married man. Porn, coworkers, etc. I don’t get off the hook.
And another thing, the argument it’s awkward to not have sex and then you get married and boom suddenly you can start doing it…blah blah blah. The presumption is wrong that this is somehow justication for pushing the boundries before marriage.
If this is really a problem, don’t have sex your first night. Do some heavy petting. For the first night, week, whatever.
GingerSnaps, Thank you for that information–now I can sleep at night instead of lying awake wondering if I should hurry up and get married so I can use up the goods before they spoil! ;^)
Thank you for your invitation to keep in touch via email. Today has been busy. I’m almost done with a medical transcription course and am trying to knock out the last few reports and learning modules. And then the dreaded final. And then hopefully WORK!! Once I start working (outside the home–all women work), I’m sure I won’t have nearly as much time to hang around on blogs.
I will email you soon. I look forward to keeping in touch that way. By the way, thanks for the translation. :^)
@Jeremiah!
Haha! You are my favorite kind of Christian–the kind that spews judgment out one side of his mouth, but tries to downplay it with a “confession” out the other. You judge us with a whole bunch of “self-control-where is it b.s.” and then you tell us you’re home wanking it to porn or while thinking about all of the hotties at work.
You’re a riot, man. We should play golf sometime.
I bet you smoke cigars, too.
HAHAHAHA!
(Being unfairly judged doesn’t feel so good, does it?)
@Jack
🙂
I never claimed to be perfect. And I never asked anyone to try anything I’m not willing to try.
I’ve been justified by faith. Sanctification takes time and grace. Nobody claimed life was easy.
God bless.
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I am actually encouraged by the number of comments that take the viewpoint that sex outside of marriage is wrong, that there are still some moral absolutes, and this is one of them. I think Christians have a way of blaming everything that’s wrong on non-Christians, but this is an area where we need to be taking a hard look at our own behavior. By buying into the idea that there is no sin between consenting adults, we have contributed to a culture that has become increasingly self-absorbed and self-indulgent. God is pragmatic, and I think he absolutely did set this standard because he knows what sex outside of marriage does to us spiritually, emotionally, and physically, and because he knows it has a detrimental effect on the world around us when it becomes the norm. It’s not “na na na na boo boo – I get to have sex and you don’t.” It’s about providing moral and spiritual leadership to the generation that follow us. Yeah, the bar is set high, but it’s possible to abstain from sex and not waste away. We are not our own; we were bought at a price.
@ Anyone still reading this thread
I’d like to apologize for a lack of compassion in my rant on self-control. It was from the hip and I didn’t take enough time to be sure it didn’t come off as an attack.
@Jeremiah,
Unfortunately, I have a tendency to sometimes rant without compassion myself. And it always takes a lot of strength to come back and take responsibility. Thank you.
I waited until marriage to have sexual intercourse, was married 14 years and had an awesome sex life for most of it (That isn’t just my slant on things. If you ask my ex-husband, who is still my friend, he will agree.), and then my husband wanted a divorce. I didn’t.
It took a TON of self-control to wait until marriage to have sex. But it takes A LOT MORE self-control to wait to have sex until you are married again after you have been married.
The situations may be similar in that both require self-control…but the surrounding emotions are completely different. For one thing, you now know exactly what you are missing. For another, you might not trust the insitution of marriage to be a forever thing anymore (nor do you likely trust the opposite sex a whole lot). For another, you might feel cheated that God didn’t “heal” your marriage when you begged, prayed, pleaded, and were willing to repent and do better. When you feel you have been betrayed by God Himself it makes it much easier to fall into the (yes, idotic) thinking that if you have sex outside of marriage, you’re somehow getting even with Him.
Until you have actually had to live through a marriage falling apart or having the one you pledged your life to shrug and walk away, it’s easy to say what you would or would not do. It’s easy to think that your beliefs would not change. I know–because ten years ago I could have written every one of your comments word for word (except the “married man” part). In addition, I probably would not have come back to apologize for speaking/writing rashly.
I appreciate your comments. It makes me feel good to know that so many people are really passionate about what they believe and will admit to being works in progress. :^)
To Everybody:
What ttm said.
@Jeremiah: I don’t think “get a spouse” necessarily solves the “burning with passion” bit. What if one gets married and the sex turns out to be crap and doesn’t get any better over time, even though the couple love each other very much? What if the marriage turns into a sexless one for whatever reason? (Case in point: My parents, married for 29 years, have not shared a bed since the early 1990s, after my mum had a total hysterectomy…among other things.)
You bring up “fornication”. However, if you look up its etymology, it has a different connotation entirely to what most of us have been taught.
Word History: The word fornication had a lowly beginning suitable to what has long been the low moral status of the act to which it refers. The Latin word fornix, from which fornicātiō, the ancestor of fornication, is derived, meant “a vault, an arch.” The term also referred to a vaulted cellar or similar place where prostitutes plied their trade. This sense of fornix in Late Latin yielded the verb fornicārī, “to commit fornication,” from which is derived fornicātiō, “whoredom, fornication.” Our word is first recorded in Middle English about 1303. (source: American Heritage Dictionary, via dictionary.com)
(Aside: Most English translations/interpretations of the Bible are not based on the original Hebrew and Greek texts, but on the Latin Vulgate.)
So, really, the word “fornication” ought to mean “illicit/illegal sex” — ie, sex with a prostitute. In fact, the related Greek words “pornos” and “porne” both describe someone involved in illicit sexual activity: “pornos” means “male prostitute”; “porne” means “harlot” or “whore”. Surely it’s a bit of a stretch to reduce two unmarried, consenting adults who have sex who aren’t prostitutes to that level? Not to mention it would be, very much, wrong.
And from Easton’s 1897 Bible Dictionary (also seen at dictionary.com)…
in every form of it was sternly condemned by the Mosaic law (Lev. 21:9; 19:29; Deut. 22:20, 21, 23-29; 23:18; Ex. 22:16). (See ADULTERY.) But this word is more frequently used in a symbolical than in its ordinary sense. It frequently means a forsaking of God or a following after idols (Isa. 1:2; Jer. 2:20; Ezek. 16; Hos. 1:2; 2:1-5; Jer. 3:8,9).
Let’s also consider that Jacob, David and Solomon practiced polygamy, not to mention the latter had hundreds of concubines — women kept for the sole purpose of having sex; and that Jacob had children through both of his wives’ mistresses, to whom he was not “married” (as we would define the term today); and God didn’t punish them for it. Also, some Bible scholars/theologians suggest that the boy the centurion asked Jesus to heal may’ve been a “kept” boy, not his son. Jesus didn’t pass judgement; he simply praised the soldier’s faith and healed the boy.
In case you’re wondering, yes, I used to believe in the “absolute” that “sex outside marriage is a sin”. Nowadays, I find it is, very much, a grey area, and something people need to determine for themselves; and whatever conclusion you jump to is ultimately between you and God.
@Jani (who commented anonymously) and ttm: That is an excellent point you raised. Adam and Eve did not go through what would constitute as a marriage ceremony. They simply had sex and that was that. It does make one wonder how God really defined “marriage”; and–to me–it doesn’t seem as if it was defined by legal documents and a ceremony performed by a minister or court official.
@StuK: I’m sorry. 🙁
I didn’t read all the comments, but skipped down here to add this…
There may not be a verse that specifically says (in the oh-so-desired words) “premarital sex is wrong.” However, God discusses having sex and becoming one with one’s husband or wife…so having sex with someone else (whether before, during, or after your marriage) would logically be wrong. Traditional Jewish weddings were not final or consummated until the couple had had sex and emerged from the bedchamber to celebrate the marriage. If you are looking for a Biblically-based perspective on love, sex, and spirituality, I would recommend Rob Bell’s “sexgod.”
Blessings.
Wow. This blog + comments is so, so interesting. So I want to pose a question to you guys: What if there were a loving, committed couple who couldn’t get “married” at the point in time…due to finances, or schooling, or maybe even a long distance relationship? Could they have sex and be married in God’s eyes? Or is there a reason to wait, still?
Anonymous at 1:06 p.m., Those are good questions. I don’t know the answers, but I hope that someone is still reading this thread and chimes in with an opinion.
Anonymous re: What if there were a loving, committed couple who couldn’t get “married” at the point in time…due to finances, or schooling, or maybe even a long distance relationship? Could they have sex and be married in God’s eyes? Or is there a reason to wait, still?
I believe that followers of Christ are called to abstain from sex because of the message that it sends to the world. I know we tend to romanticize the past – to believe that things were better than they actually were. On this issue, though, I think just a few decades ago, Christians were more consistent on issues of sexual morality. I think that’s played a huge role in a society that has become increasingly cynical in recent years.
I understand the mindset that says God only cares what’s in our hearts so if we really love someone, sex is OK. But loving someone isn’t the same as standing before God and making him a partner in your marriage. Sex isn’t supposed to just be a physical thing, but that’s what we’ve made it, and Christians are as much a part of that as non-Christians.
Sex is supposed to be a spiritual and emotional act, as much a physical act. It’s supposed to be part of forming a bond between a husband and wife, but we’ve turned it into something else entirely that minimizes its importance. And as a result, nearly 40% of children in the US are born outside of marriage, which statistically puts them at a disadvantage. Too many Christians are contributing to that 40%. We should be living lives that show the difference Christ makes, but too often, we show that we’re not any different at all.
So yes, Anonymous, I think there is still reason to wait.
In Indonesia, we have tight rules/culture about that. Especially what we called ‘free-sex’ and not to mention that in bible says that we as Jesus followers should taking care of our holiness in front of our Lord. Until now i have so many question about western people who are prone to have a ‘free-sex’ and sometimes it becomes a common thing to make love before married or living together before married, but now i know that you all have the same struggle too about that…thank you and God bless! -ira-