A lot of my blog readers had questions about the topic of masturbation: Is it a sin? Does the Bible mention it? Why do I feel guilty? Should I feel guilty?
The specific “masturbation” question I sent out to some of my friends was this one:
Is masturbation Biblically wrong? Where does it state this? Will masturbation before marriage damage or ruin one’s ability to have a healthy/fulfilling sexual relationship with their future marriage partner? –Anonymous
My ramble/opinion on masturbation…
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Some thoughts from other people:
ONE
The Bible does not say that masturbation is wrong. It doesn’t say it’s right either – Ecclesiastes 9:10 is not a pro masturbation passage even though it says, “Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might.” The popularly misused anti masturbation passage is in Genesis 38:9 where Onan “spills his semen on the ground.” That is far more about sex without responsibility, Onan was not masturbating – he was having sex and trying not to get Tamar pregnant.
So, here’s my perspective – you can masturbate all you want. The only catch is this – you have to be able to get an erection, and bring yourself to an orgasm without having any sexual thoughts whatsoever. If you can do that – you never have to leave the house again! The Bible does have plenty to say about lust. Jesus pretty much slams the door in Matthew 5:27-28. There he says, “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”
Lust is the issue. Masturbation flows from the lust in our hearts, and that’s what Jesus is always concerned about. He is more concerned about our hearts than our behavior.
As a speaker and radio host, I get asked questions about porn, sex and masturbation all the time. I was also in active addiction to all three for 24 years. I bought, along with our culture (and pastors too) that sex is a need. It’s not. It’s a want – and a really big one – but it is only a want. How do I know sex is not a need? Pretty simple – Jesus never ejaculated. There’s two words you never thought you would see in one sentence, huh? He would have had to have committed the sin of lust to have an orgasm, and since we know he was perfect and sinless, it could not have happened.
We go through all types of gymnastics to try and justify and rationalize, but the fact is that sex is not a need. It’s a want, and a healthy want, but still only a want.
Tal Prince
Speaker, radio broadcaster (and all around cool guy!)
TWO
Regarding masturbation, I’ll tell you what my Baptist mother told me after I became a Christian in my late teens, “The Bible is silent on the subject.” Yes, we can infer a lot from Scripture about God’s perspective on sexuality, but inordinate guilt is not healthy or productive. Neither is inordinate self-absorption, if you know what I mean. If, like the late Frank McCourt, you’re a young person given to masturbating 20 times a day, that might be a habit that’s out of control. If you’re lusting after your neighbor’s wife while masturbating, it’s wrong. Thoughts lead to actions, so I would say, if you need a physical release, or, as might be the case for questioner #1, you need to get to know your own body, you should concentrate on the sensation and you’ll probably get there.
Also, if previous sexual experience ruins a person for marriage, I don’t know my husband and I have been doing for 24 years. I thought we were having really good sex even though neither of us were any sort of virgins prior to our wedding night. If I’ve been missing out all these years, I hadn’t realized it! I will say, however, that I came into the marriage with baggage from the past and trust issues that needed to be worked through. It took time and a conscious decision to allow myself to be vulnerable to my trustworthy husband to bring healing and growth.
Christine A. Scheller
Journalist, essayist, blogger, and frequent contributor to Christianity Today
THREE
I have a few questions for Onan actually. First and formost… “Why were you having sex on the ground in the first place?” It’s a terrible place to spill seed. Onan’s sin in Genesis 8 was not masturbation. Onan’s sin was disobedience.
8 Then Judah said to Onan, “Lie with your brother’s wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother.” 9 But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother’s wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the LORD’s sight; so he put him to death also.
This story likely actually “preaches” better as a “Be obedience, sacrificial, and fruitful in what God’s called you to do it life” more than an anti-masturbation campaign.
I don’t think that masturbation is not the worst thing a guy can do. In excess with lustful thoughts… it can lead down very unhealthy roads but (not to be crude) it’s a single guy’s sheet saver. It will not ruin your ability to have a healthy sexual relationship with your future wife… but it’s also very important to remember that sex in marriage is designed not for our own pleasure… but to bring pleasure to your spouse. James Dobson has excellent things to say about it actually…
“Between 95 and 98 percent of all boys engage in this practice and the rest have been known to lie. It is as close to being a universal behavior as is likely to occur. I would suggest that parents talk to their twelve- or thirteen-year-old boys, especially, in the same general way my mother and father discussed this subject with me. We were riding in the car, and my dad said, “Jim, when I was a boy, I worried so much about masturbation. It really became a scary thing for me because I thought God was condemning me for what I couldn’t help. So I’m telling you now that I hope you don’t feel the need to engage in this act when you reach the teen years, but if you do, you shouldn’t be too concerned about it. I don’t believe it has much to do with your relationship with God.”
Dave Carrol, pastor [MPT: but a Canadian one-:)]
FOUR
Not wrong. I was told that the chapter about Onan (Gen. 38) was a prohibition of masturbation but I think my pastor stretched things a little bit too much. The Roman Catholics demanded total control of their followers’ sexual life and so misinterpreted that chapter to mean that masturbation (or spilling of your semen into anything but a vagina in order to procreate) is a sin. So, to complicate matters, they used the prohibition against adultery (the 10 commandments) and Jesus’ command to not even “commit adultery in your heart” to mean that thinking about sex is a sin. What your pastor or priest didn’t tell you is that “adultery” refers only to sex with another man’s wife, and not every woman you see.
Michael Mangold, MD
Doctor, and a Facebook friend
What do you think about masturbation? Leave your thoughts…
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Well, this is a rare thing for me to say, but I agree with everything you said on the video. I mean I can’t relate to the giving it up for lent wager, but I agree that the church spends far too much time obsessing about masturbation and other sexual behaviors. Masturbation is common and usually a healthy thing. Why the church makes such a big deal of it has mystified me since I was in Jr. High…
…why the church seems to think that it’s only a “guy thing” has mystified me too.
i appreciate you tackling this topic. for men, i think ya’ll talk about it more — on a joking level. but women, we never talk about it because “we’re not supposed to do it.” it is important to talk about it though because when issues like this are left in the dark, we can’t work on them and we’re just left in shame. kudos to you for putting it out there… or whipping it out there… 🙂 so we can all get real about it.
men can easily masturbate without lust, but i gotta be honest and say that for women, it is almost impossible. we’re too emotional to keep at the surface.
addiction is very real though and i don’t think it should be glazed over.
i look forward to the rest of this series.
Crystal Renaud
dirtygirlsministries.com
Excellent video commentary MPT. Thanks for your valour, wit, wisdom, fearlessness. We all should do as well.
My minister father gave me the masturbation talk one day after picking me up from the 7th grade in the VW van. We were crossing a bridge when the subject came up, and I remember freezing as I had already discovered that “that feels really good”.
Dad’s comment: If you try it, it’s natural and nothing to worry about.
A couple of years later my youth pastor told us we should not only worry about it, he manipulated Scriptures to soothe his, um, guilt. And he encouraged us to openly confess our private activities in small groups. (That would get youth workers arrested today.)
What did I do? I listened to the you pastor discovered guilt, worry, anxiety, confusion, and began to relate to God on that subject in a very unhealthy way.
It took a few years but one thing I know now: religious guilt is a very over-rated emotion and abusive tool. That kind of guilt does not come from God.
I should have listened to Dad.
Great post, and I don’t know if any mature Christians will say this, but I laughed out loud at the picture. But then, my mind must just be in the gutter – it’s a perfectly innocent and meaningless cartoon.
Great video and am very happy to see people tackling the subject. Masturbation is very healthy for women and men.
I do very much disagree with the comment from Crystal stating most women only masturbate with lust. I truly think women were told this over and over by the patriarchal system for the purpose of oppression. Masturbation is divinely designed for us too 😉 Like everything else, it can be abused but to stereotype women as being merely emotional creatures is doing a huge disservice to yourself as well as your fellow sisters.
I realize it’s irresponsible to comment without reading the entire post, so sorry. I love the picture at the top. I would like to mass produce t-shirts with that pic and distribute them at various Bible Colleges. We could change the world.
okay, to really get down to business… i don’t think masturbation is biblical at all. if it were, i think Jesus would have mentioned it as he was hanging out with this boys around the dinner table. it has become acceptable the more we get away from the idea that sex was intended for man and a woman i marriage. and further more… if married women and men are masturbating, you’re basically telling your spouse you don’t need them. i’m speaking as a single woman, not a wife who doesn’t like her husband wanking off. sex isn’t a solo act and it never was supposed to be. and before you say masturbation isn’t sex… umm… it is.
I’d have to disagree with Crystal on the comment that it’s almost impossible for a woman to masturbate without lust…because the comment I was going to originally make before reading through the comments thread was this: how does Tal Prince know that Jesus never ejaculated? Was he there? Nope! And what about wet dreams? These are perfectly natural occurrences.
Here’s the thing, and I’m just gonna keep it real here: I can get off purely because it feels good, and I don’t need to be thinking of a man to do so. In fact, it’s beyond rare that I ever fantasize about a man if I’m engaging in some “alone time”…so, how can anybody say that Jesus did or did not engage in a basic human function? A very presumptuous statement, in my opinion.
Thanks so much for your video on this topic. And for addressing it in such a balanced and clear manner. We’ve gotta get real in the church…so glad to see you helping to lead that effort.
Good post. I was just introduced to this site via Jon Acuff, and I thought this would be an interesting topic to start the week off.
I did hear/read some things that I disagreed with, and wanted to add my 2 pennies. First off, for Tal Prince, I think to say that Jesus never ejaculated is completely speculation. I don’t think ejaculation is always a result of lust, although it often is. There’s always the somewhat involuntary nocturnal emission, which, as far as my understanding goes (which isn’t very), is a natural release.
And for MPT, I think encouraging masturbation is a dangerous thing. What starts off as a teenager’s curiosity slowly but (almost) surely turns into looking at girls (or guys, for that matter) as parts, not people, and ultimately gives you the thought, “sex is about my satisfaction.”* From what I hear from married folks, sex is about the other person.
On a less serious note, when you said you thought you broke something, I laughed out loud because I can relate.
*Disclaimer: This series of events may very well only be what I experienced, and not be the norm.
Oey… I agree and disagree…
I will speak in the context of Marriage.
It can not keep the married person from meeting the needs of their spouse sexually.
If married and open about it with each other, and each has full knoweldge, then fine masturbate away.
But when done in secret and or in substitute for sex with your spouse then, No.
This is a great resource for married couples on many subjects related to sex. http://themarriagebed.com/
Over all it is about the state of mind and heart when done. If you and your spouse are in agreement, then your state of mind and heart will be correct.
Outside the bounds of marriage it becomes between you, the reason for masturbation, and God.
Oh and just because Jesus doesn’t mention something, doesn’t mean it isn’t wrong in the Eyes of God, but you are right on Grace. God holds the power of Grace, we should follow the example. I think we have all sinned…
lust doesn’t have to be about fantasizing about a man pleasing you while you do it. even the desire to want to have an orgasm is lusting after something we are not supposed to experience on our own. and if you’re masturbating without the desire of achieving orgasm… why are you even doing it? cause i’ll say it again, sex isn’t supposed to be a solo act. imo, of course. hooray for discussion and different opinions.
Isn’t the key to anything BALANCE?
MPT clearly said that if you are becoming addicted to seek help…and he encouraged this is a very loving way, not condemning at all.
Every good and perfect gift comes from the Father.
But the problem I have experienced in my lifetime in the church…people wanna take everything to the EXTREME…
Balance, people, balance!!!
crystal, you can’t speak for married women if you are not one yourself. I am a married woman. I masturbate. My husband masturbates. We masturbate together. Its a very natural thing to do & its a very wonderful way to connect.
Sorry to hijack the comments, but I also wanted to add that masturbation for me is rarely unaccompanied by porn. It’s not uncommon for my penis to be in one hand and my iPod Touch in the other. The two just go–yeah, I’m going there–hand in hand. If you’re going to encourage masturbation, I think you need to mention that you shouldn’t let its destructive friend tag along. I think we can all agree that porn is definitely sinful.
PS. Thank you for talking about this. I never thought I’d be this open without going anonymous
Ok, so I have to ask, because this has been on my mind in the past.
So, lust goes hand in hand with masturbation. When we do something sexual (masturbate), lustful, sexual thoughts start popping into our head.
BUT – what if the thoughts are of your spouse? We have been married over 10 years. That’s a LOT of memories. My thoughts have not strayed to someone else, I have never chosen myself over her or let it come between us (no dirty pun intended).
i would agree that mutual masturbation among consenting married adults is great AND healthy. i am speaking for the women i counsel who can’t please their husbands or can’t be please by their husbands because all they wanna do is masturbate. it is a slippery slope. no pun intended.
Crystal, here’s where we disagree: an orgasm in and of itselfdoes not equal lust. Yes, it can result from lust, but it doesn’t have to. A doctor will tell you that an orgasm is a physical phenomenon. (i.e., again, nocturnal emissions)
Seriously…am I the only one reading this that can achieve an orgasm purely from focusing on the physical pleasure and feeling of the act?
An excellent point is brought up here by Anonymous.
How do we define lust? Who defines it? Is it immoral in some cases but moral in another context?
And who defines that context–a religious institution, one’s partner, your psycho-sexual history or one’s conscience before God? Maybe a combination of all of the above?
i think the question is less about CAN it be done vs. whether it SHOULD be done. that’s what i am struggling to reconcile.
ah, and therein lies the rub…
/ok, I’m sorry…I just boo’ed myself on that one.
Masturbation isn’t only lust- it’s cheating on your marriage.
I’ve heard it said that “masturbation is taking sex into your own hands…literally.”
Part of the TRUST of marriage is giving your spouse 100% of the responsibility to satisfy you sexually. That’s a HUGE thing to trust to someone. But when we do it, it builds intimacy.
That said, the answer isn’t “don’t do it and you’ll be pure.” I think that pursuing Jesus and having his love take over is the best way to develop a healthy hate for sin. It should take care of itself.
Crystal, I would venture to say that masturbation may not be the problem. There is a root problem there and masturbation just happens to be the way its manifesting. Of course this may not be the issue in every case but it may be easier to figure that stuff out if you look at masturbation as natural.
No GingerSnaps, you are not alone 😉 I masturbate alone purely for the sack of orgasm with no lust issues.
yes the bible doesn’t say anything, but it is a distortion of Biblical sexuality. No where in the Bible does it say we should be sexually arousing ourselves.
As a single woman in my 30s who has not engaged in premarital sex with a man, I have really struggled with this question. Your blog didn’t resolve this issue in my mind, but it has made me begin to think of this topic differently. I know, for me, maturbation has been an issue that has somewhat kept me from achieving the intimacy with God that I want and has made me feel like I can never fully step into my calling. I have wondered before if something I do maybe once or twice a month should carry that kind of weight. I am pursuing my calling and intimacy with God, but I do feel that it is a barrier. Obviously, God wanted me to begin my ministry as a single woman, or I would be married. I know His grace covers me, and I know that it is better to “sin alone” than to bring someone else into it with you. I don’t see God as a mean dictator that has His lightning bolt thrower armed and pointed in my direction, but I hate the thought that He might be disappointed in me. I don’t want to be in sin, and I don’t want to justify it. But it’s something I’ve spent alot of time repenting for in my life and asking God about. Thank you for opening up the subject. I think you did well at bringing a balanced approach. I’m gonna pray some more about it, and see if I find freedom. My prayers have been to either overcome this deficiency or to accept it as something that God has provided me to keep me from falling into something more destructive.
I find it interesting that articles on masturbation are popping up all over the internet lately – I think God is telling me something 🙂
This debate on Relevant mag was especially insightful…
http://www.relevantmagazine.com/features-reviews/life/1605-is-masturbation-sin
…And the follow-up even more so:
http://www.relevantmagazine.com/features-reviews/life/17534-is-masturbation-sin-a-follow-up
These two articles really cleared a lot up for me, and I agree with Crystal’s last comment. Everything is permitted but not everything is beneficial.
Personally I’ve never been able to take myself seriously when trying to masturbate. I worry sometimes that there’s something wrong with me and that my future husband is going to struggle to please me if I can’t even please myself, but I’m learning to leave concerns about the possible future to God 🙂
Ok, I’ll clarify my position a bit –
Jesus did not masturbate. It’s very critical to the Gospel that he be sinless, and I’m gonna say that I’ve not yet met the guy who can masturbate without sexual thought or fantasy.
Is it normal? Yep. Does just about every guy do it? Yep. Do lots of women do it? Yep.
Outside of marriage, though, the question is still the state of the heart. Masturbation, if flowing out of lust, is a problem.
Inside of marriage, it can also be a problem. Masturbation is about meeting our own perceived needs, and not depending upon God to satisfy our desires through our spouses.
Why not let desire build up for your spouse? That is some of the best sex you can have in a marriage!
Basically, many of us don’t like to be dependent – either on our spouse, or God. Also, we’re not big fans of delayed gratification. We want what we want, when we want it. Holy cow – we complain about the internet being slow, right?
In counseling and working with other sex/porn addicts, one of the first things we do is get them to do 90 days of abstinence. No sex – with anyone – not even themselves. You should see the looks on their faces – they are terrified.
They honestly don’t believe they can make it. They also think things may go horribly wrong if they don’t ejaculate. They have bought into the whole sex is a need thing – and they buy the lie that they’ll turn blue, be in great pain, or explode.
When they find out that none of those things happen, they are amazed. They find out sex is a desire – and a healthy beautiful desire placed in us by a loving God who wants us to enjoy sex within a marriage.
I have had countless men say to me, “I thought I was going to die with that whole 90 day thing, but man that marked a huge turning point for me. I found out I can live just fine without having an orgasm or 7 or 8 a day.” Ok, I threw the 7 or 8 thing in there….
Are you going to hell if you masturbate? Nope – not if you know Jesus. Is lust any less a sin? Nope.
Take a look at Philippians 4:8 and see if, for you, masturbating fits – “Finally brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.”
I love the discussion, and particularly when it’s in a respectful forum like this.
You are gold, MPT.
Keep both hands on the keyboard… :0)
tal
Great post. Masturbation, as MPT also suggests, can help us get to know our bodies better. It opened the door for discussing sex with my husband, and we haven’t shut up about it since! I’ve found that knowing the roadmap well allows me to give my husband quite specific directions.
I think that on either side… it’s thought about/worried about more it should have ever been.
I remember a young engaged guy I was mentoring and he was beating himself up pretty badly about “screwing up” as his wedding approached. Like to point where he was doubting whether he could be “Pure” with his soon bride-to-be once they were married.
To me at that point it was a … whoa whoa whoa… just calm down fella.
I think it’s worth analyzing it and asking God what it’s accomplishing in your life. Is it helping your relationship with God/wife or hindering it. It’s a gray area which as Christians we should be able to give or take at any time really in the name of better relationships with God/Spouse.
Once someone came to me and told me that we should all be masturbating before going to a worship service so we could concentrate on God more wholly. MAYBE a caution light going up there
I definitely disagree with you when it comes to teaching kids how to masturbate in church. I think Jesus Christ does mention masturbation in many ways. He tells us to flee from sexual immorality. He tells us that even just by looking at a woman lustfully we’ve committed a sin in our hearts. That’s enough for me to know to back away from masturbation.
Now I definitely agree that we shouldn’t be making people feel so ashamed and guilt ridden because of it because they are going to fall harder with that guilt and shame. But the act of masturbation is not fleeing from sexual immorality like Jesus tells us.
I read the book “Every Young Man’s Battle” and I haven’t masturbated in like half a year. I don’t even remember the last time. Of course I get sexual urges but I just give it to God and ask him for the strength to over come temptation.
I seriously disagree with you when it comes to telling people to do it in the church. I would say teach them that they need to be open and transparent with each other with it and help each other over come this temptation.
@Bryan: Just to clarify, I’m not advocating people masturbate IN church. I just think people in church shouldn’t discourage it, but in fact encourage it in healthy ways…
Just wanted to make sure you didn’t think I was in favor of people doing it in the vestibule…
🙂
Jesus did not masturbate. It’s very critical to the Gospel that he be sinless, and I’m gonna say that I’ve not yet met the guy who can masturbate without sexual thought or fantasy.
Tal, once again I’m going to take you to task (please know, however, I am doing so with all sincerity and respect!)…
So what you are saying here is that masturbation is a sin (because if Jesus had masturbated, he would not have been sinless). You are also saying that a man cannot masturbate purely by focusing on the physical sensation of the act and without thinking of a lustful thought of a woman in his mind. Correct?
I’m not a guy, but wow, if that’s true, that’s something I never knew…and at 42, I am continually amazed at what I still don’t know about men, so there you have it!
Also, MPT: doing it in the vestibule… *SNORK!!!*
Passionate topic. I love your willingness to bring it up and everyone’s willingness to discuss the issue. I pray that we not only partake in the discussion in cyber-world and discuss it face to face with others (men and men, women and women).
Qualifier: I often disagree with most fundamentalist, legalistic, guilt gratifying ‘theology.’
Thoughts: Having had hundreds (or thousands) of conversations with men of all ages about this issue (thank God) I have to say that 99.9% of the time (for men) masturbation is the physical flow from ‘lust.’ Even if ‘lust’ isn’t what initiated it. Lust is a sin, and we ought to have the goal of ‘being holy as He is holy.’ Clearly we won’t achieve that, but it ought be our goal.
Masturbation therefore, should never have been or should be the scapegoat of guilt tripping sins (like homosexuality), but should be avoided. Arguments from silence about Christ’s likelihood of having masturbated are not convincing in the least. Nor are the arguments that it’s a ‘normal’ behavior. I agree that it is, but so is sin.
Again, I’m far from fundamentalist, but I pray that by God’s grace and my discipline that I will one day cum while my wife even starts to unbutton my pants;)
God Bless
Wow, I never cease to be amazed how secular culture has seeped into Christian culture. After having this discussion with many men I believe the following is true…..
-For a man to masturbate with out thinking of a partner is either lying or some sort of cyborg.
– Jesus summed up the whole lust thing pretty clear.
– the pornography industry would be broke with out masturbation.
I quit masturbating at the same time I made a decision to not look at porn, and I can say that porn is pretty useless with out masturbation. With a accountability brother and the Lord, its actually a lot easier to stop viewing porn if you have made a vow not to masturbate anymore.
People can justify it all they want, but Jesus is very clear on what constitutes adultery
Ok look…I do apologize for hijacking this thread, but I have questions. First of all, commenter “Andy” please ‘asplain your last 2 paragraphs? You lost me (and probably a few others)…
fwiw, my point in questioning Tal’s point in “did Jesus ejaculate or masturbate” isn’t to belabor if Jesus “did it” or not…I could seriously care less if He did or not…he would still be my perfect, sinless Savior in my eyes, because I simply do not believe masturbating is sin. (See: physical human function) However, I do think that if a “speaker” or someone of “spiritual leadership” is heaping guilt on hundreds of parishioners, congregants, followers, or whatever you choose to call them by saying He didn’t “do it” and then using THAT as an example to tear at people’s self-esteem and cause more brokenness in people’s lives (thus, once again, ripping them further away from a relationship with God), then I have a huge problem with that.
People’s souls and their futures (and the futures of those whose lives they touch) are at stake with how these very personal matters are handled. Sending someone down the road of guilt and condemnation can be JUST as destructive as any amount sexual lust can!!!
Everything you said is completely true. It would be interesting to have a female do this video and see if there is a difference though! x.
GingerSnaps,
I’ve yet to meet the man that masturbates without sexual thoughts accompanying the act.
I probably know less about women than you do about men, but I do think it’s safe to say guys masturbate while thinking about sex.
Another good question to ask ourselves in this is, does masturbation bring us closer to Jesus? Is masturbation seeking first the kingdom of God and his righteousness?
Sex inside a marriage does meet that criteria, but I’m not so sure masturbation, alone outside of marriage, does. Thoughts?
I do want to say, again, that I’m recovering sex addict and it’s not uncommon to see an alcoholic discourage drinking in any form. So, I do understand my position may be seen as extreme here.
I just know that God is honored and glorified in sex between a husband and wife. I don’t see how He is glorified and honored in masturbation.
As a recovering sex addict, I also know that what I was really addicted to was me. Masturbation is ultimately a selfish act, as was the sex I had before my marriage, and regrettably even in my marriage until I got help.
Just had to say kudos on the opening graphic! That was hilarious!
Very interesting discussion. Thanks for discussing it so openly. In my work as a youth minister/youth worker with YFC, this was a topic that came up often. And now, as the mother of a 7 year old son, I am preparing myself for the time when my husband and I need to deal with this subject with my son.
Honestly, I still don’t know what to think. But I do know that I don’t want my son, or anyone, to feel they cannot be in relationship with God because of their masturbation.
I’m interested in understanding why *lust* in this conversation is being limited to “inappropriate passion to have sexual relations with another person.”
Not to get all Greek on you, but epithumeo simply means “to set the heart upon”, or “strong desire” in the noun form, and it carries a negative connotation of serving one’s own desires, but it is not in any way limited to having another person as its object.
Here’s where I think this question gets to the heart of the gospel, and at the heart of the with-God life. There’s a principle of community and giving to others that runs right at the heart of the with-God life, and we’re counseled over and over again, in many different words and ways, that “it is better to give than to receive.”
Excluding mutual masturbation in the context of marriage, with unpressured consent from both parties, where both lovers are giving and receiving pleasure — I see no way that masturbation can be understood as giving to another. Simply put, where in Scripture are we encouraged to serve ourselves?
in HIS love,
nick
PS – I don’t buy the “it’s natural” argument — toddlers punch and kick and bite naturally, too, but we don’t see that as appropriate adult behavior.
The thing is, Romans defines sin as ‘whatsoever is not of faith’, and it stops there. Maybe I missed it, but I’ve yet to find the verse that says “masturbation (or whatever controversial subject is the topic of conversation) is the REALLY BIG SIN THAT CANNOT BE FORGIVEN. EVER!!!!” We can sit here all week long and split hairs over which ‘thing’ is okay and which ‘thing’ is strictly forbidden, but the underlying truth is that ALL sin is equal in the eyes of God. He hates it all!
While masturbation may or may not be a sin, and lust may or may not be the root of the masturbation sin, and it may or may not be a sin to masturbate in private, in excess, in public, or in the marriage bed, at the end of the day, it doesn’t truly make a difference if you masturbated 100 times or if you just condemned someone who did. Sin is sin is sin is sin, and I can guarantee you that every single one of us sinned today whether or not we masturbated.
I don’t know of Jesus masturbated OR ejaculated. But what I do know is, He never sat around pointing fingers at the disciples who undoubtedly DID masturbate.
Can I introduce another thread to this fascinating discussion? It’s related to whether or not lust is *always* involved in masturbation.
Read this article at Slate and, if you dare, take a look at the slideshow:
http://www.slate.com/id/2223013
It’s about how animals masturbate. Really. Which raises some fascinating questions…are these animals lusting or sinning when they do it? (Um…no. I think.)
So are they just acting on some sort of natural impulse due to the absence of sexual partners? Or are they just doing it because it feels good? (No one knows. Scientists are still trying to figure this out.)
Anyway, that’s what they do. Did God create them that way?
@Tal Prince and @nick gill
I have to say I agree with both of you on most of your points. I would say that there were times in my life when I would masturbate only based one the sensation (about 5% of the time) and I tried to justify my sinful lust with saying I was just doing it based on the sensation, but being that I do think porn and masturbation walk hand and hand I think it’s safer just to stay clear.
melis: Word UP! 🙂
I just had to give my two cents. I am a girl, so I won’t say anything about how this works for the guys. I’m married, but that doesn’t mean I truly understand how a guy thinks.
I will say that I absolutely think that females can mastrubate without it being a lustful thing.
I think the greater issue at least for girls like me is – is this ultimately a selfish thing that would be beneficial for me to avoid?
And for that question, I do not have an answer.
I do think that some of the very blanket statements that some of you have made on here are not helpful. I don’t know how you can say, without discussion, that mastrubation is wrong or that Jesus didn’t do it or that it’s impossible to do without lust. When the Bible is silent, how can you speak so confidently?
I certainly think that this is an area to proceed with caution, because sexual purity is a big deal. But… seriously… making blanket statements of right or wrong where the Bible is silent is innapropriate, in my opinion.
GingerSnaps,
Thanks for pointing out that I wasn’t entirely clear (par for the course for me), but what I was trying to say is that I agree that for far too long Christians have been condemning of those who are homosexuals, or those who are masturbating (both of which I am convinced are sin). We ought to love as Christ did. Period. Condemning peoples actions (without encouragement and correction) does nothing but build our pride and our own sin. I hate how we (Christians) have done such a poor job of loving, and are chomping at the bit to beat the crap out of others vulnerability.
Also, when people assumed that masturbation/ejaculation is a ‘natural’ thing, and because the bible doesn’t say that Christ didn’t do it, and therefore assume that He did, is an argument from silence. Those are poor premises for any arguments for anything.
Sin is the issue. Lust is sin. Let us pursue, and encourage others in their pursuit of righteousness.
The second paragraph is was only about my desire to funnel all sexual desire for my wife, now and in the future, in the intimate moments and in every application of love I can show to her.
Again, I don’t mean to sound or be legalistic about any of this. I know for me, and for the hundreds/thousands of guys I’ve spoken to, it is impossible to masturbate without lusting. Therefore it is or causes sin and ought to be avoided.
Side Note: If I were able to masturbate without ‘lusting’ (ignoring that that may apply to the sensation itself), would I be slowly eating away at the pleasure that my wife would be able to give to me? (i.e. I prefer to do it on my own b/c I know exactly what feels good, etc.) Thoughts?
Tal:
Sex inside a marriage does meet that criteria, but I’m not so sure masturbation, alone outside of marriage, does. Thoughts?
I believe that we must strive to live lives of balance. A Proverb that speaks to me constantly is “A false balance is an abomination to the Lord, but a just weight is His delight.” This can apply in every, single area of our lives.
Now, I am SO very fortunate that I did not inherit an addictive gene (unfortunately, my brother did) although I did get depression and some other junk passed down from the forefathers…or however you wanna call that…your choice. For those of you who do struggle with addiction, achieving balance is so difficult. Heck, it is for me and I don’t even have the addictive urges driving me like you do, so my heart truly hurts for you and wishes the very best for you each and every day in your journey.
However, I believe we can easily make generalizations through the lenses of our own experiences (addictions, weaknesses, baggage) that may just not apply to others. (i.e., I may be able to partake and it not cause me to stumble)…and I can still be seeking first the kingdom of God. I really think what Paul was speaking about in Romans 14 applies here…about how one man’s faith allows him to eat anything, but another man can not…but we must not look down on each other…
That just kinda struck me just now as I’ve been pondering this today.
I dunno…your mileage may vary…
You could have left us a balance in the comments and opinions at the end of your blog as you made it seem as though the normal Christian observer would consider Masturbation a righteous act, or even a healthy one. However, I must admit that I do not find this to be the case whatsoever. You are correct that the Bible is silent on this particular subject. However, it does not mention, for example, pornography specifically, yet this is obviously wrong. As you point out, the Bible is full of reference to lust. Human sexuality was created by God to be enjoyed within a holy covenant (marriage). When we participate in activites, thoughts, attitudes or lingering glances that pervert this (a perversion being the WRONG VERSION of a good thing) then we make impure what God has created for purity. It can be safely assumed that masturbation is always accompanied by lust. Lust is wrong, therefore masturbation should be avoided at all costs. When are tempted we should pray for our deliverance as Jesus taught us and God will provide the grace to live free from this. God is faithful and gives grace to those who ask Him. And, yes, it is possible even for a 19-year-old male like myself to live in this freedom and purity, which Jesus died to give us. Who’s the boss: you or your hormones? I, like the Apostle Paul said, beat my body into sumbission rather than submitting to the lusts of my flesh.
@GingerSnaps
😉 Thanks. I’ve just never understood the Sliding Scale of Sin section of the Christian bylaws. I’m also a huge hit at potlucks and structure document meetings.
Regarding a previous comment about “married women who can’t be pleased by their husbands because all they wanna do is masturbate”…
This may well be a sign–not that you masturbate too much, but that you don’t speak up in bed nearly enough.
Seventy five percent of women don’t reach orgasm with penile penetration alone.
What women do when they masturbate, men need to do (or closely approximate) when they have sex with them. Why? Because that is how 3 out of 4 female orgasms work.
Just wanna go on the books with GinergerSnaps that I too can masturbate while just thinking of the physical sensation. I used to feel incredible guilt over the few “lapses,” however it is my husband that has helped me understand masturbation as a natural thing. We have talked about this topic often, and how the Christian culture has warped all things involving sex. While filling out a premarital counseling form, my husband WANTED to answer the question “Have you struggled with masturbation?” with the answer, “Nope, I have enjoyed every minute of it!
Just a few thoughts or reactions to things that have been posted:
“men can easily masturbate without lust, but i gotta be honest and say that for women, it is almost impossible. we’re too emotional to keep at the surface.”
–I think this is too much of a generalization.
“so, how can anybody say that Jesus did or did not engage in a basic human function? A very presumptuous statement, in my opinion.”
–I totally agree.
“i don’t think masturbation is biblical at all. if it were, i think Jesus would have mentioned it as he was hanging out with this boys around the dinner table.”
–It may not be mentioned in the Bible, but entire theologies have been constructed around things that aren’t specifically mentioned in Scripture, i.e., abortion, the “trinity”, baptism in the Holy Ghost, the sinner’s prayer, accountability, etc.
“From what I hear from married folks, sex is about the other person.”
–This is true, but I’d just like to ask the guys reading this, don’t you derive a great deal of satisfaction from giving your wife the orgasm of her dreams? So in GIVING her pleasure, you GET a nice shot of “Yep, I’m good in bed.” And, for the women reading, isn’t the same thing true of us? When you GIVE a guy the best time he’s ever had, aren’t you also GETTING a nice boost of “Look at the effect I have on him? So–in my humble opinion, even when we wax eloquent about our sexual GIVING, our own egos are getting nicely shined up in the process.
“Seriously…am I the only one reading this that can achieve an orgasm purely from focusing on the physical pleasure and feeling of the act?”
–No, Ginger Snaps, you are not alone. :^)
“How do we define lust? Who defines it? Is it immoral in some cases but moral in another context?”
–Here’s an interesting blogpost about the word “lust” if anyone is interested in exploring the answer to these questions.
http://marriageinfo.blogspot.com/2006/02/lust-is-not-always-wrong.html
There are so many interesting facets to this conversation, and I could keep writing reactions until midnight, but I don’t want to completely hijack the comments section.
Just one more: Thanks, MPT, for initiating this discussion. I hope that people who have been shackled by shame will find freedom through some of the things being shared here.
I truly don’t know what I think about masturbation.
While I want to believe that masturbation is not a sin. I am not convinced. The argument of it being a perfectly natural thing doesn’t sit with me, because like someone before me alluded to, so is jealously, pride, unbelief, etc. and we can all agree (I hope) that those are sins, even though they come quite naturally. And while “everybody does it” is likely true, doesn’t make it right. Everybody also is proud, self-serving, etc. Make sense?
I am a single woman who is nearing 40 pretty quickly and what they say about a woman’s sexual peak being upper 30’s is spot on!
And, yes, it is possible, for me anyway, to masturbate based only on the physical sensations. That being said, it actually takes effort for me to only focus on the physical sensations.
And, the times that I’ve experienced an orgasm while sleeping is through a dream that would the contents have been in my awakened state would’ve been sin. I say this only to ask, “where did the dream come from?” Was it a result of pornography that was in my home as a kid and that I struggled with as a young adult? Was it a result of the sexual lust that I committed that day or the day before? Was it just simply a dream?
I gotta say, although I disagree a little bit, I really appreciate a guy with the balls to discuss something like this on his blog. For me, I know its really hard to masturbate without lust, to the point where the two are completely fused together.
I gotta recommend Driscoll’s Porn Again Christian. http://relit.org/porn_again_christian/ I tend to agree more with him, but I have complete respect for the position taken on this blog.
@ttm
I didn’t mean to imply that just because sex should be about your partner, that you shouldn’t get any gratification out of it. I’m fully aware that sex is (or at least should be) pleasurable to both parties.
But you kinda missed my point. When I’m masturbating, it is quite impossible for me to be doing it for my spouse, seeing as how I’m unmarried. And this just shapes my thinking so that sex is PRIMARILY about me, and not my (future) wife.
I must strongly disagree with Prince. Jesus must have ejaculated, since he was fully human. The male body is designed to ejaculate, and without either masturbation or sexual intercourse, it will take care of itself through nocturnal emissions. It’s not as though Jesus didn’t have semen, testicles, and a penis.
Matt Chandler always says that if something brings you closer to God to do it, but if it takes you further away from God to avoid it.
“All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be enslaved by anything.” (1 Corinthians 6:12)
We shouldn’t judge other for masturbation. God doesn’t have a gigantic list of things that are SIN. The point is whether or not we love Him with all our hearts, souls, and minds.
If you can masturbate and love God, do it. “Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves.” (Romans 14:22) If you can’t masturbate and love God, don’t do it. Whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats (substitute any other questionable thing), because the eating is not from faith. (Romans 14:23)
@J-Ra: Thank you for the clarification that great sex is pleasurable for both parties. You make a great point that masturbation is about the self.
Of course, solo masturbation does have the primary goal of SELF-gratification. But what I was trying to say was that if we are truly honest, the OTHER person’s pleasure is almost impossible to separate from our own pleasure because when two people are married, they are one. The pleasure of the other is the pleasure of self, the pleasure of the self is the pleasure of the other. I think it’s pretty impossible to have altruistic sex–your body will not climax if you are not focused on your own pleasure.
I’m sure there are a bunch of people reading this who will be quick to jump on the “others first and self last” bandwagon…but doesn’t Scripture say to love others AS you love yourself not INSTEAD of yourself?
Just my two cents. :^)
Okay, I just have to say it’s funny to get the captchas “forser” and “funess” when making a comment about sex.
Before I start debating “is X a sin?” I need to be honest with myself about my motives. Am I, on the one hand, shaking my finger at some sin I haven’t had trouble with or have been delivered from for the purpose of achieving “plus status”? Or am I, on the other hand, trading the mindset of “what does God want for me” for the mindset of “what might God let me get away with”?
When it comes to something not spelled out explicitly in the Bible, I have a hunch that God will provide guidance if we ask for it and sincerely want it. That being said, I don’t know how to account for the fact that so many apparently sincere and well-meaning people are so widely divided on this issue. I’m not the arbiter of anyone else’s motives; I don’t often trust my own.
The one thing I can say with certainty is that it’s a very bad thing to let your struggle with some particular sin define you. This happens quite commonly with lust during the teen years, like it did to me, and the results aren’t usually pretty. Instead of reaching outside myself and growing in Christ, I turned all my energy inward in a vain attempt to control my sin, and ended up addicted. (All the drugs didn’t help, either.)
The AA Big Book (and no, I don’t confuse the words of Bill W. with the Word of God) has a very common-sensical approach to the whole sex issue. Basically, the litmus test is: is this selfish or not? Pretty simple. (The sex section runs from the bottom of pg. 68 to about mid-way down pg. 70. Yes, that means it’s on page 69. The AA founders were “not a glum lot.”)
Ok – again – let me clarify a couple of things.
I was asked to offer my opinion – which I did. I have not said the Trinity becomes a quartet when I die – which it won’t.
I do not believe that God is sexually repressed, and I believe he created sex for our pleasure and as a foretaste of his glory.
As a pastor, I’m preaching through the Song of Solomon right now, and I pastor a community of recovering sex and porn addicts. This clearly colors my viewpoint, which I freely admitted to. I have, and love, everything from sex workers to homosexuals, to pedophiles in my church. All of which can tell you how many of their struggles started with masturbation.
I did say that if you can masturbate without lust, you’re on solid ground and you don’t have to leave the house! More power to you.
My issue with masturbation is not the behavior – it is the motivation behind it. If the motivation is lust, it’s sin.
What was meant as a fairly flippant remark has generated a great deal of discussion here. Yes, he could possibly have had a nocturnal emission, but God also created the male body so that excess semen exits during urination. The options are not limited to ejaculation.
I am very pleased that God’s people are having a healthy discussion on this issue. It’s something we need to be talking about much more often.
Thanks, again, MPT, for inviting me to take part in this!
So. . . . this is the PR that Jesus needs???? Is this blog really trying to be helpful here or just to increase the shock value and benefit off of it?
Tal, blessings to you for the work you are doing. I know it isn’t easy, and I have the utmost respect for you! I LOVE your opening line of this last comment: “I have not said the Trinity becomes a quartet when I die – which it won’t.
Classic! 🙂
Anonymous at 8/10/09, 7:52pm: I do not presume to speak for the author of this blog, but since I have been quite vocal in this thread, I must ask you: is there anything within this post & resulting comments that you could possibly deem unhelpful — thus, harmful?
Meh, let’s not talk about this issue…let’s just push it back under the rug once again and let people drown in their condemnation and lack of understanding.
Viva la Puritanism!
i hope you’re really reading these comments. 🙂
i wasn’t going to leave one but ive decided i HAVE to. i watched your video and, to be perfectly and “anonymously” honest, i am so torn and heartbroken. almost in tears as i write this.
i have masturbated regularly for 15 years, and it IS a burden. i WANT to be better. i WANT to be as whole as i can for my future husband. and i’m afraid i won’t be if i dont stop. (im also afraid my future husband will never be able to “make me happy” if i don’t stop soon enough prior to meeting him, whoever he is… does that make sense?)
i watched your video and almost cried, because all i heard was “its ok.. don’t beat yourself up” you were so loving. and ive never heard that. i think part of me wanted you to say the opposite so id have a reason to never do it again. so now i don’t know what to do. i wanted it to be wrong, but you say not to worry….
[in addition: im just gonna be honest here and admit something. when i do “it” i always pretend im someone else. so “I” have never done it, it’s always been someone else’s name, someone else story, etc… i know that makes me sound crazy, but its true. but that just makes it doubly hard. which is the sin? are both? are neither? i don’t know.]
honestly i am MORE confused now.
personally, i wanted to say OF COURSE it’s a sin, it’s sexual immorality. and anyone who questions that just WANTS it to be ok so they can get away with it.
but now… i just dont know…
but in your defense, i think i have problems that go a lot deeper than just masturbation, so i can’t blame you for my confusion (not completely anyway :))
keep up the {controversial) work! god knows we need more of it.
I hope these comments don’t sound too snarky. This is just a hot-button issue with me because as a clinical sexologist, I actually educate people about how to masturbate in a healthy way. Yep, that’s part of my job description.
Regarding Tal Prince’s take:
1) He claims that Jesus never ejaculated. So did Jesus never go through puberty? I believe they had wet dreams, even back then.
2) He says that you can’t masturbate without lusting. I beg to differ. Maybe he’s just doing it wrong.
3) If I could prove that someone can masturbate without lusting, what happens to his rationale?
4) Oh, and he also says that to masturbate, I have to get an erection. Um, that’s kind of hard (pun intended) since I don’t have a penis. Unless he’s talking about the clitoris getting enlarged, but somehow I don’t think that’s what he’s talking about.
Regarding Christine A. Scheller’s input:
– Bravo! Thank you for acknowledging that not being a virgin doesn’t mean that you’re doomed to a bad sex life. She says she had trust issues to work through, but I’ll assume she’d agree that even virgins can have trust issues. The condition of her hymen when she said her vows was not the predictor of her the condition of her married sex life.
In response to Dave Carrol:
– It may surprise people to know that one way I help people improve their sex life is to encourage them to NOT see sex as something you do for someone else, but something you do for yourself. I know that sounds selfish, but think of the stereotypical young mom who is too tired for sex. Isn’t part of the problem that she sees sex as another chore — to please her husband? What if she can think of sex as something she does for herself? What if she can desire sex simply for its lush richness of bodily pleasure? As an escape from chores into a deep and satisfying connection with her partner? People can improve their sex life simply by taking ownership of their own pleasure and not expecting their partner to “give them pleasure” or thinking it is their duty to “give pleasure.”
But here’s the thing- sex is not just about pleasure! It’s about intimacy and oneness between two people.
Sex is an act of unity and an act of sacrifice.
That’s what makes masturbation so completely unfulfilling- it’s making love…to no one. Love is selfless, not selfish.
@jay brock
or if you’re biblically accurate, it’s between
THREE people (Jacob)
1000 people (Solomon)
and I could go on…
@plain jane
I think the simple answer (and I really hate working with “simple answers”) would be to say that if you think it’s sinful, then don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. Romans 14 talks about abstaining from certain foods or drinks as a matter of one’s conscience. Verse 6 says, “…the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.” If you have made a decision in your mind to see it as sin, then to you it is sin. That’s the view I tend to take myself regarding the issue.
As far as doing it over and over and being trapped, know that there is forgiveness in Jesus Christ, so you don’t need to beat yourself up for it. Just give it to God and He’ll be happy to take your burden upon Himself.
Yeah, so all I need is for a client of mine to Google me and find this 🙂 But I HAVE to say it…Gingersnaps, you are certainly NOT alone. I can honestly be thinking about the laundry that needs to be done, my grocery list, the news I’m listening to…sometimes it’s just an itch that needs a quick scratch. And as far as how it benefits my marriage? Absolutely it does, because it reminds me of the fun, and the more fun I have, the more I want…with my husband. When you’ve been married a long time and have little kids, something that lights the fire for my husband is helpful. No guilt here whatsoever.
Firstly, MPT I am enjoying the blog and especially enjoying this week.
Secondly, J-Ra (about 10 posts from the top) has a good point that I can’t really see being addressed here, which is the almost inevitable link between masturbation (not necessarily wrong in and of itself) and porn (wrong – period).
It has been my experience that these two always go hand-in-hand (sorry.)
I would like to hear some other people’s thoughts on this.
C!
That’s what makes masturbation so completely unfulfilling- it’s making love…to no one.
Who said??? Can you please tell me where it was ever mandated that masturbation is an (“unfulfilling”) act of making love?
Just as eating is a biological function that is also a very pleasurable gift when indulged in responsibly, so is the sexual function of our bodies — YES, a biological function (unlike that human psychological issues of jealously, pride, unbelief, etc., which was a point brought up earlier…) so to condemn some and say it is “sin” when there is no mandate (again, barring the addiction and balance issues as discussed in this thread) seems to be putting ourselves in a Position that is just a bit higher than our pay grade…wouldn’t you say?
I do realize that pushing this issue probably makes it appear that I’m a fiend…but I assure you, I am not. I am just SO heartbroken to read comments like Plain Jane’s where she has beaten herself up over and condemned herself…and she feels like she’s “used up” before she even meets her future husband…and it’s all because of a bunch of puritanical, patriarchal bunk that was fed to society generations ago…I mean, remember…there are still women TODAY who are having their clitorises circumcised off of them — yes, CUT OFF — so they cannot feel pleasure, because some societies have bought in to the belief that it is evil for these women to feel any pleasure.
I am fired up about this. It is wrong to make people feel vile and evil about themselves…and the church has done a grand job of doing that…to its own detriment.
Jay, I think your statement that “Part of the TRUST of marriage is giving your spouse 100% of the responsibility to satisfy you sexually” is very dangerous.
I didn’t marry my husband expecting him to meet 100% of any of my needs, and if I did think that before, I was quickly set straight.
This is not to say that we shouldn’t strive to know and meet our spouse’s needs. But my happiness, sexual or otherwise, is my responsibility.
Dude, this has been a very enlightening thread.
I had no idea that this many people thought masturbation was wrong. Apparently, all those female patients who I’ve told to try it as a means to better sex (“you not going to be a very tour guide if you’ve never visited the country yourself”) are in a heap of trouble now.
And what’s this with this masturbation always comes with porn thing? Is that a guy thing? Because I can tell you, they definitely do not always go hand in hand (yeah, yeah…pun intended) for women.
@nick gill said
“Not to get all Greek on you, but epithumeo simply means “to set the heart upon”, or “strong desire” in the noun form, and it carries a negative connotation of serving one’s own desires, but it is not in any way limited to having another person as its object.”
Jesus himself used the same word for “desire” (desiring to have passover with the disciples) and for “lust” (lusting after a woman). In that case, the object is ALL important. That is, desiring something that is not yours to desire. Therefore if Jesus desired, desire is good.
Another thought is the “selfishness” of masturbating in marriage.
1) not having read all the comments, but I don’t see the subject of desire/drive mismatch raised. Nothing selfish is going on when the other doesn’t want what you have.
2) Who says that masturbating is not letting the Lord look after our desires?
I will put it to you this way. I am 38 years old, married, 2 kids. I still stumble in the area of lust leading to mastubation from time to time.
We must come to terms with the fact that we will stumble. Doesn’t make lust that leads to masturbation right by any means. Once we come to terms with the fact we can’t over come sin with out God the stumbles become less. And when we do stumble we are quick to look to him 1. For forgiveness, and 2. For God to pick us up and move closer to Him. The more we make it past the temptation without the stumble the more armor we build up to fight the battle against lust.
So I would ad Phil 4:13
Rely on God. We can do all things through him who gives us strength. Lets face it masturbation is a form of pleasure, and the pleasure is what we crave, and a selfish one at that(well any pleasure we seek outside what God provides is selfish). Once we realize that God will fulfill our pleasures according to our needs, we gain strength in Him. We stop putting pressure on ourselves to clean up, and start relying on the cleansing of the Holy Spirit.
Eph 6:10-11 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes.
So the question becomes what is the reason behinf masturbation and is it pleasure derived from God’s provision?
It is important to address the idea of cultivating a privatized sex life through the venue of self-gratification. This is true for both men and woman.
Clearly and biblically speaking, it seems obvious that sexuality was intended to be a two-player game, and to reserve it for oneself or to practice it with oneself – sets a person up a sex-life that does not include the love of other but solely for the sake of oneself.
Obviously this is an on-going question and concern, but it seems like the goal should be love toward God and toward your spouse. Also, regardless of whether it seems acceptable, as Paul says not all things are beneficial. And I think with a brief and calculated understanding, it is easy to come to the conclusion that the pleasure of sex is reserved for your husband or wife to give you.
Why? Because it cultivates a sex-life between the two if you, where the goal is unity, understanding the mystery of your bodies together as you begin to understand and love each other.
Does it make a difference if its prescribed by a doctor and/or in a doctor’s office? 😉
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I’ve been reading everyone’s comments about the lust being a part of it, and I have a question. Jesus specifically says that if you lust, you have committed adultery in your heart. Ok, that’s great if you are married. I am 33, single, never been married, and probably never will be. So who am I committing adultery against? My future husband that may never exist??
I read a book on the subject by Dr. Steve Gerali (great Christian, youth minister, adolescent psychologist) called The Struggle. I recommend everyone read it. He explains that yes, if you are married and are checking out some woman that isn’t your wife, then that can be a form of “adultery in your heart”. However, if me, a single woman, checks out some hot guy, how is that adultery? Isn’t that just the basic attraction that is needed to pursue a relationship?
Just my two cents, for what it’s worth.
@Plain Jane
Oh girl, my heart just breaks for you. Let me tell you, I have been there. Usually mastrubation begins in the teen years, but I don’t really remember a time of life when I didn’t matrubate sometimes… all through my childhood. I didn’t really know what it was or what I was doing, but I was punished for it when my mom found me, so I carried deep feelings of guilt.
Once I got into the teen years and it was talked about in church, I tried constantly to beat the habit, and although I could for a while, I never beat it permanently. I too carried that guilt and the worry that I would never be able to carry out a healthy sexual relationship with my husband.
Let me tell you, as a married woman, that having struggled with mastrubation doesn’t ruin you for your husband. It does actually mean that you know how your body works, and you can guide and teach him how to please you as well. I am still unsure how to think about mastrubation – is it wrong, or is it right? But from a purely practical standpoint, I actually think it was helpful in some ways, because it helped me to understand my own sexuality instead of just completely ignoring it and then trying to activate it post marriage.
I have never struggled with porn or any of that.
So yeah… understand that you are under the grace of God, and that perhaps, for people like you and me, we need not carry around the weight of guilt that we have.
To Becky Knight – thanks so much for your work and for commenting.
You have no reason to know me, but yes, I was doing it wrong for about 24 years. I am a recovering sex/porn addict, and now pastor and host a talk show on Sirius Satellite Radio. I have freely admitted here as to how that colors and provides context for my thinking, but again, I was asked to give my opinion.
I did say that if you can masturbate without lust, you’re fine.
As for Jesus, my flippancy doesn’t really translate well in black and white. My intent there was to say that Jesus never masturbated, and my belief in that is simply that I don’t know any men who masturbate free of any lust, sexual fantasy, or pornography. They may exist.
You got me – I interpreted the question as if from a male. And that’s normally my context. It was sexist and wrong – sorry!
Thanks again for your work and comments!
To Nick Gill –
As a pastor and one that also works at a seminary, I want to point out that epithymeo has multiple meanings and nuances. It is not confined to simply “desire.” It is used 16 times in the New Testament, and it does sometimes mean desire. It can also mean lust, or even desire with evil intent. Context is key.
To Ginger Snaps –
Thanks for your kind words. I’m sure we can be friends, even though you have painted me as puritanical and patriarchal. :0)
I do want to say the passage in Proverbs is about deceptive business practices and not so much about balance in life. Though finding that balance is highly important. :0)
To All:
Yes we have freedom in the Gospel. It’s a beautiful thing.
My only point is that if lust is involved in masturbation, it’s a problem. Does it mean you’re going to hell? Nope. The Gospel says so. You are forgiven – right here, right now. Jesus paid for stuff you haven’t even done yet – that’s a great day.
We do have to give thought to the process of sanctification – being made more like Jesus. That’s why the law still exists – it didn’t go away.
It’s very funny to me that on a masturbation debate, people are referencing mainly a passage about meat. Just had to say that…
Coming back to the word for lust and to Jesus. Do we all think it’s a coincidence that Jesus mentions lustful intent for a woman and then goes to the eye and the hand? I don’t think so.
How do we, as followers of Jesus, handle (loving the puns) Colossians 3:5? There are others, but those on the pro side of the debate aren’t addressing the lust passages.
If you can masturbate without lust, then you need not wrestle with this any further. If you do struggle with lust, you don’t need to beat yourself up – you need to stop.
The guilt is a sign that the Holy Spirit is doing his job. Shame, however is different – that’s not healthy. You are forgiven, if you are a follower of Jesus. He loves you and is NOT angry at you. He is fully pleased with you.
Again – SO good to see people discussing these issues!!! It’s what we do on our show most every Sunday night. Come hang out with us!
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Tal,
So now, in this thread, you have not only presumed to know whether or not Jesus masturbated/ejaculated in his lifetime — which you do NOT know, because, as has been discussed here, masturbation/ejaculation CAN occur without lust toward another human being. BUT now you also have PRESUMED to know the mind of the author of Proverbs to say that in their writings (Prov. 11) on balance were only referring to “business practices.”
I was not referring to you with my words “patriarchal” and “puritanical”…those were about entire societal philosophies. You are the one who made that “all about you.”
I do not know you at all. I will say that from this thread, you have come across as someone severely misguided regarding your knowledge of scripture, and worse, arrogant, because you state your opinions as FACT.
It truly concerns me that you are influencing people’s way of thinking with this attitude.
I may very well be wrong in my viewpoint on this thread’s topic, but one thing is for sure, there are medical facts about this topic mixed with a lot of Biblical speculation being tossed around here. It is very dangerous to mess with people’s fragile minds to state your speculation as fact.
RE: The statement that those on the “pro” side not addressing the “lust” issue…that is simply not true. It’s being addressed throughout this thread.
So after seeing this video blog post do people think twice about shaking your hand when they meet you? Just asking.
@Anonymous: I carry sanitizer. 😉
Great post; really like the topics you are covering during Sex Week. It’s refreshing and enlightening!
I haven’t “roughed up the suspect” in over 5 years and I haven’t looked at porn in 6+. I ran a website called Teens Against Porn for 3 years. What I am about to say comes from my experience. I do not assert to know facts.
I could not agree more that our Americanized Christian culture nurtures an unhealthy and disproportionate sin-to-shame ratio with regards to masturbation and guilt. This fosters narcissism and results in turning our behavior into a sort of idol, which takes the place of God, instead of being what a righteous life should be, which is a connection to God.
However.
I believe that masturbation is a significant contributing factor to the deterioration of marriages today. I think it is cheap and easy fast-food sex. To build on the metaphor, I have no appetite for filet mignon and wine (real sex with my wife) when my “sexual belly” is full of chicken mcnuggets and milk shakes (solo-sex). Consequently I never “get out my pans and get in the kitchen.” I create an environment that makes it easy for me to neglect my wife’s romantic needs. And on a long enough timeline I alter my sexual metabolism to prefer the fast food altogether.
But what about the single people?! Surely God owes them sexual pleasure and release, right? God would never invent a system whereby certain people on this earth went without a “basic need” like sex. Right?
I intended the inherent sarcasm to be the question and the answer.
During the pregnancy of one of our kids my wife began bleeding in the place that causes panic. We then went 6 months without intimate relations. We both did it gladly. It was not difficult. We were given the green light that sex would “probably be fine”, but we had priorities, damnit, and it wasn’t to our sex drives.
I don’t know what it’s like to go a year without sex or masturbation. Or 5 years. Or a lifetime. But I can tell you that as challenging as it was in small moments along the way, I felt as though I could go a year, or 5 years, or a lifetime if I had to. Because my priorities were not to myself, but a life that I held precious.
I am tempted to masturbate on a weekly basis these days. But the duration of the temptation and the intensity are a fraction of what they were before I quit. In fact they are lower than they were when I had quit for 5 years. And 5 years was lower than what I felt after 3, and so on and so on.
I think one of the lies we believe is that temptation will always be “this strong for this long” and we don’t realize that most times, it won’t. It gets easier in time. New habits replace old ones. Most people believe that we are born with one sexual metabolism (based on genetics) and we are stuck with that. But I think we influence our sexual metabolism by our consumption (lust/porn/masturbation). If we feed it, it will grow. And if we starve it, it will diminish. We are each programmed with a base level, but we can earn our ways into addiction if we try hard enough.
You are correct that our guilt is out of proportion. Thank you for saying that. But that is not a license to throw in the towel and give up completely.
peace | dewde
For more about lust and sexual addiction and recovery, check this out. It’s very “wordy” but it’s a good read. My favorite part in relation to what has been and is being discussed here at Matthew’s blog was when the author of the article (Jay Allbright) reminds us that Jesus LUSTED in Luke 22:15…check it out!
http://www.recoveryministries.com/sexualaddiction.htm
MPT, thanks for the hand sanitizer – :0) Classic.
Ginger Snaps,
Concerning Proverbs 11, I didn’t just pull that out myself. That comes from centuries of commentaries by people much smarter than me. (incidentally, people like that are incredibly easy to find) Proverbs 11 on the whole is about contrasting righteousness and wickedness – verse 1 is about merchants using dishonest scales, which was an incredibly common practice of that day. Business transactions usually involved scales and dishonest merchants would use false ones to tilt the transaction in their favor.
I didn’t just make that up, and I’m very sorry you think so, and that it bothered you.
I was teasing about the patriarchal and puritanical comment – I read that as you applying those words to any of us in the anti camp. I didn’t think you were speaking only to me. Again, I apologize for offending you. My intent was a light hearted gesture at trying to be friends – it clearly failed.
The men who have contributed here have overwhelmingly said that we don’t masturbate without lust being a component. I know that may surprised many of the women here, but so would much of what goes on in our brains.
Being a man with a great deal of experience in masturbation and in helping countless men in addiction, I’ve just not met those that have done it without lust as a component.
Several times I have said, If you can masturbate without lust then all is well.
For me this issue is not at all about the behavior – it’s about the heart. If lust is involved – sin is involved, and then God’s word has a lot to say about that.
Since the men here have overwhelmingly said lust is a component, and Jesus was a man, that’s where I base my position. I have said several times that it is my belief, and I have freely admitted several times that my context is colored by my own addiction and my ministry.
I didn’t say that the lust issue is not being dealt with – I said that those on the pro side aren’t dealing with the passages about lust. I do still think that’s the case, but like all else – it’s just my opinion.
Still hope we can be friends. :0)
I was married for long time before my husband decided the grass was greener…Sex was probably the best part of our marriage, and all I can say regarding Colossians 3:5 is that if my then-husband would have considered “[his] member dead to passion…”, I would have embodied Proverbs 19:13b “…a nagging spouse is a leaky faucet.” (The Message) ;^)
I stand by my original belief that it is not LUST that is sin, but the CONTEXT of your lust that might be sinful. You OUGHT TO LUST for (strongly desire, set your heart upon) your spouse just like Jesus LUSTED to have communion with his disciples. I don’t think all lust is wrong…and to get back on topic, I don’t think all masturbation is wrong either.
Tal,
I am absolutely about being friends, as we are fellow believers…when it’s all said and done, we’re on the “same side” after all. 🙂
That being said, regarding your comments about Proverbs 11, I must say that I was baffled by your initial response, and was left wondering exactly what your motive was in feeling the need to point out that the passage is about deceptive business practices rather than balance in life anyway.
I go back and read the entire chapter, and STILL see that the writer is using the scale and, yes, business practices as an EXAMPLE of contrasting righteousness and wickedness in LIFE. (RE: the commentaries, etc., I went to Bible skool, this ain’t my first rodeo, ok? LOL)
To jump on the context of that passage came across as trying to be dismissive to my comments. It was such a moot point in this thread. Doing so after the whole “Jesus didn’t ejaculate” debacle just blew (heh) my mind, and so that’s why it got my ire up.
I apologize for being so harsh in my tone earlier. Again, I am very passionate (heh) about matters of hurting and broken people who have been made to feel like dirt at the hands of people who speak on behalf of God. Please know that isn’t a slam on you, that is a general statement about the state of the church in general these days.
Lot’s of great discussion here. Kudos to you, MPT, for being willing to be the lightning rod on this one.
I’ve read the majority of the comments posted up to this point, and there are a lot of thoughtful responses as well as a couple of entertaining sidebar rants.
My unfortunate conclusion, however, is that most of the discussion here is myopic; that is to say it misses the big picture. I implore that none of you take that as a personal insult; nor do I wish to cast blame/judgement. And yet this discussion has become a microcosm for what we (the church) do with almost every single issue du jour: we make it about whether or not it is technically a sin.
This precisely what the Pharisees did. Rabbis of different “yokes” argued convincingly from opposing points of view, as has everyone here has done. Certainly some arguments are better than others, but once again they miss the point entirely. Ultimately our faith cannot be in The Law; it must be in the person and divine nature of Jesus Christ.
Jesus came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. And when asked which was the greatest commandment in The Law he responded, “Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul. And love your neighbor as yourself” (Matt. 22:36-40). But Jesus didn’t stop there; he even said we should love our enemies (Matt. 5:43-44).
Jesus lived out a life that was always others first; even with those who hated him. It’s the same life he asks of those who would follow him; a life that leaves no room for selfishness or pride (Matt. 16:24).
Pride, or selfishness–self-centeredness, is the ultimate form of idolatry. It is, in essence, self-worship. It refuses to be accountable to another, refuses to submit to another, and refuses to serve any other but itself. It is interesting to note that Lucifer’s fall from heaven was due to pride: he thought he knew better and could do better than God; he wanted it his way. Adam and Eve’s fall in the garden was essentially pride: they wanted to taste of the fruit and eat of the tree for themselves; they wanted to trust in their own experience and understanding rather than trust in God’s.
And so we find that while there are a myriad of actions and behaviors that we could debate as to whether or not they are “sinful;” that is to say whether or not they are permitted by the letter of “the law.” But the real roots and tree trunk of this thing we call Sin is our tendency to make everything about us, first and foremost. Everything else (lust, envy, greed, etc.) is just leaves on the branches.
Into this reality comes Jesus, who says “my yoke is easy and my burden is light” (Matt. 11:30). He lives a perfect, selfless life. And then he asks his followers to do the same. That is at the heart of what it means to follow Jesus… to give our lives, our selfish will and desires to him.
I know that isn’t a popular thing to say. It’s even harder to do. But that’s exactly how Jesus said it would be in Matthew 7:13-14 when he said, “wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”
You see, we can conclude that Jesus never masturbated, because in almost every instance–with or without accompanying lustful thoughts–masturbation is primarily a self-serving act. And being self-serving is against the supernatural, divine nature of Christ.
I hope this brings some new light/life to this discussion. Let’s not make masturbation a nearsighted argument about what is permitted or not permitted by whatever Law we think we are following. Paul said that “by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code” (Rom. 7:6).
Let us realize that whatever we do, we are to pursue a life that is not ultimately about self-gratification. And the authenticity of just such a life is perhaps proved more in the quiet, private moments than in the visible public ones.
Hal…
No offense bro, but you can’t negate everybody’s opinions with a comment about selfishness and 1 quote from jesus… that’s pretty cocky. not your intent. but still.
@dewde
****NOTE: Not sure how, but my comment got deleted… this is an shorter/less concise version of my original comment****
I appreciate your perspective, especially your kind presentation. I’d like to respond to a couple of your points.
First of all, my encouraging people to masturbate is not me “throwing in the towel.” (In fact, towels can be helpful… but I digress.)
I don’t think masturbation is sin. I think people can masturbate without “lusting.” And I also don’t believe the Bible teaches or even comes close to suggesting that every sexual thought that crosses one’s brain is “lust.” Christians throw the term “lust” around so much that it hardly has any “real” meaning.
Since I was a kid, I have heard well-meaning Christians complain about what the world has done to “sex.” But I think Christians have played just as big of a role in bringing hurt and pain and guilt and (fill in the blank) to sex.
It’s funny how all of us agree that “sexual desire” is natural, a part of our humanity–a gift from God even. But then so many of us try to use scripture to put unshakable definitions around “how” he intended sexual desire to be lived out. That’s always really strange to me, since the Bible is full of odd/mysterious situations where “sex” played a role in the storyline.
Just to name a few…
Esther spent months prepping for a possible one night stand with King Xerxes, and only after the King found her suitable (i.e. good in bed) did they become married.
Many scholars believe the same was truth for Ruth and Boaz, that they’re relationship was consummated sexually prior to marriage being an option.
One of my favorite biblical happenings happened after King David slept with Bathsheba. One of David’s punishments (ordained by God according to the prophet Nathan) was that ALL OF DAVID’S WIVES be handed over to his neighbor (who turned out to be his son Absolom) so he could have an ORGY with his father’s wives in broad daylight at the top of the city so everybody could watch. Why? To embarrass and mock David.
Leah had to trade flowers with her sister Rachel just to get the chance to sleep with Jacob, who was married to them both.
You think masturbation messes up marriages?
And I could go on and on.
My point is this: The Bible is full of stories and happenings that go against America’s “Christian sexual ethics,” ethics that are certainly supported with verses of scripture but are often contradicted by cultural ideals. Sometimes the Bible says that God himself ordained these things to be contradicted.
The Bible doesn’t even mention masturbation. Why? Probably because the men who wrote down the Bible masturbated, but also because it’s a normal function of the human body. 12-year-old boys have wet dreams. 5-year-old girls do it while watching cartoons. NOT because it’s sexual. But because it feels good. Men go into doctor’s offices and do it so their wives can get pregnat. Is it wrong then? Would you do it if you and your wife (not sure if you’re married) couldn’t have children?
(cont…)
(continued…)
But see, many in the evangelical community deem masturbation (of any sort) as sin because it goes hand-in-hand with porn (a man-made tool to fuel lust). And that’s true. But porn has only been around (in mass production, of course) since the 1930s/40s. AND it’s only become the multi-billion-dollar industry that it is today since the Internet came along in the early 90s. BUT because people look at porn and then masturbate, we assume that masturbation & porn must be sin. WHY? Because they can’t control themselves, and so, to make it easier: LET’S JUST CALL IT ALL SIN. They assume everybody is safer that way. (The Apostle Peter tried to do the same with eating meat & circumcision.) HOWEVER, most don’t assume that owning a laptop is sin, or having highspeed internet is sin or walking into a gas station where nude magazines are sold is sin… and all of those things go hand in hand with porn and masturbation.
Listen, I’m happy that you haven’t masturbated in five years. If you felt like it was standing in the way of your relationship with God (as well as other relationships), then I think that’s awesome that you’re doing what you feel is right. But I don’t believe that, just because you avoid masturbating that you’re closer to God than somebody who does. And just because you think it’s “fast food” doesn’t negate the fact that somebody else in a similar situation as yours might think of it as “veggies and fruit,” healthy and good for them.
I agree that YOU might feel closer to God because you don’t masturbate. But that’s personal conviction, that I respect. But it’s not something that you can go around preaching as if it’s God’s “truth.” Because it isn’t God’s truth; at least, not according to scripture. And not according to a large number of people who love Jesus just as much you do.
Again, I doubt we will change each other’s opinions on the matter. But I thought I would clarify my video blog with a comment.
mpt
Hal, I respectfully disagree with the idea that Christians ought to be selfless.
Even Jesus didn’t always put others first. Sometimes he refused to preach to or to heal the crowds–even when they followed him and begged and pleaded. Sometimes he kept sleeping through the storm. He took time to get away from everyone. It is my opinion that during these times he was taking care of himSELF.
You can’t pour water from an empty vessel. You can’t love your neighbor as yourself if you don’t even love yourself. How can you forgive someone who has wronged you, if you still flog yourself for every sin? How can you give your wife or your husband the gift of sexual adoration if you think what you offer in that act (yourSELF) is something to be put aside, diminished, or killed off.
The SELF is important–Jesus valued ourSELVES so highly that He died for them. Shouldn’t we at some point realize that our SELVES are not horrible things to be destroyed but are wonderful vessels of life through which God speaks to the world?
I’m not condoning selfISHness–I’m just saying I believe selfLESSness to be just as dangerous. I’d love to hear more about what you think…and why you think it.
MTP: *Cheers & Applause! Cheers & Applause!*
@MPT brings up a fantastic point: 5 year old girls do masturbate while watching cartoons. So, if that is natural, at what point does it become UNnatural? As her parent, when do I allow her to do it, and when do I not? Do I have to acknowledge it at all, and if so, when? How? Why?
Furthermore, (and for the sake of clarity and my own sanity, I’m going to use the term ‘we’ to include all of the commenters on this particular blog, across the board, collectively, not individually nor regarding specific people) we have decided that masturbation is a ‘sin’ if it is done while ‘lusting’. What about those who have never ‘seen’ porn or anything close to it? I’m referring to young children and people in countries where it is not commonplace to see sexual images on television or in movies? If a 13 year old boy in India masturbates because it feels good, is that ultimately ‘lust’?
While we’re on THAT subject…who defines lust in the first place? At what point does a thought cross over into lust?
Oh, wait. @halthomas is right. I’m being myopic and near-sighted. Let’s all just hold hands and sing Amazing Grace. MPT–Make sure you use that sanitizer, okay? 😉
of course sexual desire is normal… and God-given… but i’ve been thinking about a few other things since yesterday that if you’ll allow me, i’d like to bring up.
1) Where is self-control in masturbation? I do believe self-control is a fruit of the spirit and mentioned several times throughout the bible. Wouldn’t sexual desire also fall into the category of practicing self-control? Falling to the desires of our bodies by masturbating to “release” physically, seems to me just giving in and not having self-control in one’s sexuality.
2) and this is the one I keep coming back to again and again as I’ve thought on this topic. As I stated before, sex isn’t a solo act and an orgasm is intended to be a solo experience either. It is supposed to be mutual between 2 partners. In fact, an orgasm is a as much of a gift to your partner as it is to yourself. Showing your partner that they’ve satisfied you. Sex is an act of worship and an orgasm is the gift at the end. Masturbation is self-worship and self-gratification — which we’re not supposed to do either.
Okay then. 🙂
oops typo. should have been, “an orgasm ISN’T intended to be a solo experience either.”
@ MPT: Have you read/been reading The Uncensored Bible: The Bawdy and Naughty Bits of the Good Book by John Kaltner, Steven L. McKenzie, and Joel Kilpatrick? If not, run to the nearest bookstore…
Here are a few of the chapter titles:
Does the Bible command bikini waxing?
Did Jacob use sex toys?
Did Jacob use ancient Viagra?
Were Samson and Delilah into S & M?
It’s a relatively short, funny read and will give you some interesting conversation starters. For example, did you know that “Most mammals and almost all primates have a penis bone. But by some weird coincidence, only spider monkeys and human males lack one…” In the book, Hebrew Bible scholar Ziony Zevit shares why he believes human males do not have a baculum. (You and your friends will have to create your own theories as to why spider monkeys got the shaft or should that read DIDN’T get the shaft?) ;^)
@Crystal
Where do you get the logic that an orgasm isn’t supposed to be experienced alone?
I mean, I know women who say they’ve been having orgasms since they were 5.
I just don’t think that is very logical… maybe it’s just me…
well, i never said it was logical. nothing about our faith is logical. it is a belief. little girls CAN have orgasms. whether i think it is what God intended… there’s a big difference. orgasms are a part of the sexual experience that God created for man and woman. i’m just not sure that Adam just hung out in the garden “going to town” all the time. and if he did — that’s probably when God said, “it ain’t right for man to alone…”
hahahaa. okay. that even made me laugh.
@ Crystal:
When we are hungry, we eat. When we are thirsty, we drink. Can we overeat and become gluttons? Yes. Can we overdrink and become waterlogged. Yes. We can even die from overeating and overdrinking.
But does that mean that we completely avoid eating and drinking in an attempt to show others or ourselves how much self control we have? No. Does that mean that we label food and water dangerous or bad or sinful? No.
We might limit our own intake of these things or we might choose to fast for a period of time. But we come back to food and drink because we need them to meet our needs.
How is the act of masturbation different from eating and drinking? Sexual desire is a physiological urge just like hunger and thirst. The fact that Christians label it sin or evil or dangerous makes about as much sense to me as labeling food and water “sin.”
For those of us who are single (and especially those of us who were once married and could have “church-sanctioned sex” for a time), masturbation is simply a way to quell sexual urges. And for married couples who have mismatched libido or extended periods of time away from each other or who have health issues impacting sexuality, self-gratification is simply a tool to scratch the itch. Why is that so bad?
(Many Christians would be great Buddhists who say the cause of suffering is desire. Kill the desire, and you will find nirvana.)
So Crystal, you are actually teaching women that when they were girls and had orgasms alone it was sin?
The mind boggles.
In other words, I need to now repent for those times I was climbing up the basketball pole in my back yard…
Damn, who knew?
@GinderSnaps
Absolutely not. When I did say that? And in fact, never in my comments did I say that masturbation is a sin. I was very careful about ever calling it a sin.
A little girl doesn’t know what’s happening to her body when that happens to her. What I am saying is — I don’t think God intended for little girls to experience orgasms. I just don’t believe it.
And I don’t think masturbation is sin. I really don’t. I just think masturbation robs us of what sex and the whole sexual experience is intended to be.
Because something is possible… doesn’t mean it should be done.
That’s my point and I’m sticking to it.
Crystal, do you think that little girls experience orgasms ON PURPOSE???? Why would it happen if God didn’t “intend” for it to happen?
Fine, stick to your point…but don’t be telling women that what they experienced as girls was something God didn’t intended. You are heaping guilt on them that will affect them for the rest of their lives…and I hope you are ready to be held accountable for that.
@Crystal, didn’t you say in a comment above you were speaking as a single woman? Can you clarify that? If that’s the case, I would venture to say you have NO idea what married sex life is like. I certainly had NO idea what it was like before I was married…and it has evolved soooo much over the course of my marriage. Believing that it is “holy” or “spiritual” to leave the entirety of your sexual fulfillment in the hands of your spouse is just…wrong.
My kid has been masturbating since he was three. You can’t possibly tell me that’s a sin.
GingerSnaps… no I don’t think they are doing it on purpose. Of course not. It is natural function of our bodies… absolutely. I believe you there and I believe that completely. Little girls aren’t at the age of accountability and self-control in that area of their sexuality. I would never intentionally make a little girl or tell a little girl that what’s she’s experiencing is “not of God.”
Our sexual desires ARE of God. They are created by God… for us.
And I would say the same thing to a grown woman. But the difference is, adults are accountable for how they treat their bodies and respond to it their bodies sexually.
And I don’t think intentional masturbation is the way to do it.
I am not going to lie to you and say I’ve never masturbated. In fact, I’ve done it more times than there are probably numbers in the world. I was addicted, pure and simple. And this is where my passion for this topic comes from.
Excellent rebuttal to @dewde, MPT. You’re right. Scripture is very culturally relative when it comes to not just sex, but laws governing society, which food to eat, the role of women, how slaves should be treated, commerce and trade, just about every kind of human practice really. When we try to take it literally for our day we end up with lots of conundrums. However, I’ve found it begins to make better sense when I read it in proper cultural and historical context. Funny how we pick and choose without looking at Scripture as a dynamic continuum and progression of how to relate to God and each other, from age to age, culture to culture. I suppose there’s a learning curve in that for all of us.
@MainlineMom
You’re right. I don’t know anything about married life. And in previous comments I acknowledged mutual/accepted masturbation in a marriage setting is what it is. The married couple’s prerogative.
And I stated as well that I don’t think of masturbation as a sin. And I certainly don’t think a child is sinning when he’s experiencing that part of his sexuality.
I’m speaking as a single woman… to single women when I am commenting here. No one else.
Crystal,
Ok, cool…glad you clarified on that. I just can’t buy into the notion that God would (as you stated) not intend for our bodies to orgasm, especially as little children…heck, baby boys get erections inside the WOMB!!
Obviously, we disagree on this topic, but I do appreciate the dialog, and am really glad you were able to work through your addiction.
Peace.
@GingerSnaps … thank you 🙂 i appreciate the dialog. if nothing else, it strengthens both of our sides of the topic to talk it out. it is better to believe something strongly than be easily swayed by someone else’s. 🙂
@MPT:
Oops. As is often the case in the battlefield of blog comments, I focused more on our differences of opinion than our similarities. In my zeal, some significant areas where I agree with you got missed. My bad. Then I tweeted that I disagreed with you, which was more of an attempt to link-bait people into reading your post and my comment, and that further confused things.
I don’t believe that masturbation is a sin. The bible doesn’t speak into the topic as far as I know. You and I agree here. I don’t even think pornography, or to be more specific nude art or erotic literature, is a sin. Pornography itself is amoral. It is neither moral nor immoral just like a firearm is neither moral nor immoral. It’s all in how I choose to use them that determines sin.
In the second paragraph I completely forgot to mention that, and by me using the term “masturbation-to-guilt ratio”, I mislead you into thinking that I believe masturbation-induced guilt is warranted. Man I screwed that up.
I agree with the others who have said it is not masturbation that warrants guilt, it’s lust.
You mentioned the delineation of desire and lust. This is a crucial part to this type of discussion. A desire is not sin, but it may grow into a temptation. A temptation is also not sin. But it may grow into sin because it is a prerequisite.
If I’m driving and I notice an attractive female jogger, I have not sinned. But I may have been tempted. If I slow down to get a better look at her jiggly bits, in order to gratify my desires and satisfy my temptation, THEN I have sinned. If call up her image later and I replay the scene while mentally undressing her, THEN I have sinned.
I can notice attractive women, and even comment to myself that they are beautiful without lusting. I can even inadvertently (yes, really) glance at a woman’s chest, but look away and make a mental note to “keep your eyes horizontal dude!” without lusting.
I’ve always seen the delineation between temptation and lust to be the decision I make in the moment. It is the choice to pursue a line of thinking, in spite of the knowledge that I shouldn’t, that qualifies lust.
You said, “But I don’t believe that, just because you avoid masturbating that you’re closer to God than somebody who does.”
The idea that I’m closer to God than other people isn’t something I have much experience with. I was an Atheist for twice as long as I’ve been a Christian and I grew up in a typical, secular family. Sometimes this is a blessing. Sometimes not.
If you re-read my comment in the context that I don’t think masturbation itself is a sin, the point I was trying to make will stand out better. I do all of these things foremost for my wife and our relationship. That’s why you don’t see me referencing scripture and being God’s vocal chords for others. I don’t feel comfortable in that suit.
In my experience, the absence of porn and shaking-hands-with-the-unemployed helps me not lust. Like, an assload. This is something for which I believe God wants me to strive.
My choices are guided by serving my wife and following the guidance/principles the bible mentions with clarity. In my moments of shameful speculation and over-generalization, I do think most marriages, maybe even yours, would be improved by eliminating masturbation completely. It makes you think differently when you decide that your sole source for gratification is your wife. And it changes the way she thinks, too. If entered into with a healthy perspective, I believe it can deepen intimacy and improve sexual relationships.
peace | dewde
@TTM:
“And for married couples who have mismatched libido or extended periods of time away from each other or who have health issues impacting sexuality, self-gratification is simply a tool to scratch the itch. Why is that so bad?”
I’m not here to say that it is bad.
But I do believe one of your assumptions may be invalid, and if so it changes the dynamic entirely.
Fortunately for you, my thoughts are debatable (not a proven fact). What I believe is that our behaviors influence our libidos. So if the mismatched libidos are purely a matter of genetics, then that’s one thing. But if one partner is artificially inflating their own libido by surfing porn and masturbating chronically, then the assumption is invalid. Many don’t think sex drives work this way but I believe, from experience, that mine does.
A 150 lbs man does not have the appetite of a 400 lbs man. But he can eat his way into the metabolism, and body, of a 400 lbs man.
I believe our sexual appetites work similarly. Just don’t ask me to use Science :-).
peace | dewde
@dewde: So what you’re saying (I think this is what you’re saying, and please correct me if I’m wrong) is that masturbation does not help to relieve an overactive libido and help to acheive sexual balance between the mismatched sex drives–instead it stimulates the sex drive and puts the couple even further out of balance?
Interesting. For some weird reason it has me thinking about how usually men have an orgasm and then feel incredibly wiped out while women have an orgasm and feel energized and ready for more. (I am not assuming I speak for all women on that one. Just one or two that I know pretty well.) Maybe male sex addicts and chronic masturbators are simply men whose bodies respond like those of multiorgasmic women…always up for one more. (No pun intended but I’m too tired to reword it.)
I agree with you that masturbation can be a bad thing when overindulged, done secretly from a spouse, or used in place of available sexual intimacy with a spouse. I also think it can be a healthy way to relieve tension.
Thanks for sharing a different perspective.
Francis Chan once said that we often confuse what is “common” with what is “normal.” Just because something has become pervasive in our culture does not mean that it is what God intended. (Just a little food for thought…)
@GingerSnaps: Re: “do you think that little girls experience orgasms ON PURPOSE???? Why would it happen if God didn’t “intend” for it to happen?” God didn’t intend for Adam and Eve to sin, but it still happened. It wasn’t his intent, his purpose, or his plan, but because he created us all with free will, it was an unfortunate possibility.
@JasonOval, @ttm: If you think I’m off the mark with the way I painted a picture of the selfless nature of Christ or that I quoted verses out of context, then I would urge you to reread the gospels in their entirety; particularly Matthew and Luke–the two with the most red letters. Take the time to investigate for yourself. On a piece of paper make two columns. Place a check mark in one column every time Jesus talks about loving/serving yourself; in the second column make a check mark every time Jesus talks about loving/serving someone other than yourself (e.g. God, family, neighbors, enemies, the poor, etc.).
The statements I made were not the result of cherry-picking verses to support my pre-formed opinion. My opinion is the result of years of considering everything Jesus said throughout all four gospels within the context of each passage and within the context of Jesus’ life.
For the record, please note that I haven’t said anything specifically condemning masturbation or those who masturbate. My intention is not to pass judgement on anyone. That is certainly not my place. My goal is simply to caution all of us not to get too consumed with pro/con arguments, but rather to focus our attention on the person and life of Jesus Christ. That is who/what we are to be pursuing.
To be certain, we will all struggle with different things as we pursue Christ. My struggle may not be your struggle, and vice versa. We have to be careful not to judge the struggles of others as being somehow “worse” than ours because that particular attitude/activity is more personally offensive to us.
I think it is sad that behaviors like masturbation and homosexuality become the bulls-eye for scorn and condemnation among Christians, and yet divorce–according to a Barna study last year–is as prevalent in Christian homes as it is in non-Christian (only 1 percentage point difference). Why are we not equally concerned with the destructive capacity of this behavior as we are about that of masturbation?
(That is not meant as an indictment of divorced people; merely an example of the unhealthy, unbiblical way we often pick on certain things more than others.)
(Continued below…)
(Continued from above.)
I believe that a lot of Christians really struggle with the reality of grace and forgiveness, especially when it comes to forgiving themselves. In response to Jesus’ words in Matt. 25:40, “Whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me” Carl Jung once asked the following question:
What if you discovered that the least of the brothers of Jesus, the one who needs your love the most, the one you can help the most by being loving, the one to whom your love will be the most meaningful–what if you discovered that this least of the brothers of Jesus… is you?
The thing is, God is far more concerned with the person we are becoming than the behaviors we are performing. And YES, I do think there is a correlation between the two (James told us faith without works is dead). But we have to be careful that we do not make determining which behaviors are “in or out” our primary focus. We should strive to understand more and more the way Jesus lived his life and to become more the person he calls us to be. Reducing that journey to mainly trying determine what Jesus would not to do–and then not doing those things–is what I believe is myopic.
Please know, whatever you are wrestling with, that you have unsurpassable worth to the God who created you. So much so, that he was willing to give his son’s life in exchange for yours. Don’t ever let anyone tell you different.
If you are currently agonizing over masturbation, take heart: God loves you and is willing to extend you more grace than you are willing to extend to yourself on most days. Seek his face, seek community with others with whom you can share your struggle. Be radically honest. God will be faithful to complete the good work he began in you.
And if you are a believer who currently masturbates (with or without lustful thoughts), then I trust you to your relationship with our Father. His ways are not my ways, and so it is not for me to say when or if he will ever choose to make masturbation something you need to make a decision about one way or the other. He does not deal with each of us in the same way or in the same time, so it is not for me to try and force upon you conviction that is not from the Holy Spirit.
I wish grace and peace for all of you.
halthomas,
Thank you for continuing the conversation about Jesus and selflessness. I might just take you up on your “Challenge of the Checkmarks” but I think I will make 4 columns in my notes:
Column One: the COMMENTS Jesus makes about loving/serving yourself
Column Two: the COMMENTS Jesus makes about loving/serving someone other than yourself (e.g. God, family, neighbors, enemies, the poor, etc.)
Column Three: the ACTS Jesus committed which appear to be acts of self-preservation and self-renewal
Column Four: the ACTS Jesus committed which appear to be acts of service to others
(And I say “appear to be” because we truly don’t know what really motivates any person, let alone a person who lived thousands of years ago and was both human and God.)
Thanks for the idea and the other thoughts. You’ve given me a lot to think about today. As far as divorce goes, uh, yeah, it’s hard to wash off, rip off, cut out that scarlet “D” when the church keeps insisting that it be prominently displayed in plain sight.
Grace and peace back atcha…
ttm,
I love your heart, love your spirit, and love your willingness to explore… Who knows: you may even come to different conclusions than I have!
My hope is that the Holy Spirit can lead all of us into asking better questions, for sometimes asking better questions offers us a greater opportunity to grow closer to the heart of Jesus than better answers ever could (an idea I first considered after reading the work of today’s guest interviewee on this blog, Rob Bell).
Nevertheless, I do want to say that I think the masturbation question MPT has raised is a legitimate one, so I applaud him for encouraging us all to put our junk on the table and talk about it; even if we don’t all end up agreeing with each other and singing Cum By Yah.
And I think wherever one settles after wrestling with this issue, the important thing for all of us to realize is that this is not the defining question of what it means to love and be loved by God. I pray that we can all find grace and comfort in that.
halthomas,
Thanks for coming back on and elaborating on your first comments (which appeared to be quite cocky, as another commenter said…I mean…calling everybody myopic is not a way to win friends and influence people, ya know?).
Re: You comment addressed to me, yes, we are all born with sin nature (thanks, Adam and Eve); however, once again, that is referring to psychology and a state of the soul, rather than physical function. Do I really have to go in to what our bodies do involuntarily to get my point across? Are you going to say that God didn’t intend for us to urinate? Because that’s JUST AS NATURAL as the physical, involuntary orgasm that a child might experience OR a nocturnal emission a teenage boy will experience. Just sayin’…
We can deny what is until the cows come home…it doesn’t make it not so.
However, hal, I do want to tell you that I love the quote by Carl Jung, as well as the compassionate spirit in which you returned to this thread and shared the love of Christ.
Peace & blessings to you.
Just finally got to this video. While I agree with you that it’s a normal, even healthy activity (especially for men), I do wish you’d talked a little more about the dangers of using porn to masterbate. If I found out my husband masterbated, I wouldn’t be upset at all. There are times when things just get too busy to give him the attention he needs as often as he needs it. When porn’s involved? Well that hurts. A lot. Even if it’s not an addiction; even if it’s a one time thing. It changes everything.
you all who actually buy all this stuff that we SHOULD masturbate and we should tell others to masturbate are crazy!
the whole idea is appalling and disgusting!!
may God bless you and heal you!!
Hi! A friend of yours linked me to your nativity post and I started digging around. I saw your “most controversial posts” and HAD to read! Thanks for writing this. It has come up several times (and I wrote about it, too [http://auntieannwrites.blogspot.com/2009/07/divinyls-talked-about-it.html]) but no one has been able to offer references. I really appreciate you writing and clarifying those passages because they, like many others, are misinterpreted based on personal need. If people choose not to masturbate, whatever the reason, that’s fine, good on them. But they should know WHY it’s not always the best thing and why it is typically not a bad thing. Thanks!