This post is the continuation of Part One: Mark Driscoll’s Church Discipline Contract.
After receiving a “church discipline contract” from Pastor X, Andrew offered no response for a week. This was intentional. One of Andrew’s friends was getting married and since he wanted to make sure he could attend the wedding, keeping his response under wraps until after the ceremony was necessary.
“I worked security,” Andrew tells me. “And so, I witnessed unwanted visitors being escorted off the property all the time. I wasn’t going to risk missing my friend’s wedding.”
A day or so after watching his friend get married, Andrew responded with the following email.
After extensive prayer and careful consideration, I have come to the conclusion that Mars Hill is not the place that God has for me to be right now. Therefore, I respectfully decline your help in this next stage of my life. I will not be returning to [name of community group leader’s] CG, and will not be attending Mars Hill anymore. Thank you for your continued prayers.
I asked Andrew, “Why did you decline to sign the contract?”
“Because I felt that the contract was legalistic, voyeuristic, and controlling. I felt like it was putting them in the place of God, determining when my heart was right or repentant enough. I didn’t want that.”
“Andrew, before you received the contract, did you feel like you were already walking in repentance?”
“Yes. I knew that I needed help. I knew that I’d done wrong, which is why I brought what I’d done into the light.”
Pastor X responded to Andrew’s email:
****
If this is your decision, you need to know you are leaving as a member under discipline not as a member in good standing. What this means is Matthew 18 discipline we discussed in our last meeting will be escalated, as there has not been enough time to determine if in fact you are walking in repentance. It is communicating to [name of community group leader] and me that you are unwilling to follow the leaders of your church who have determined you have been in sin and that time will be needed to determine if you are in fact walking in repentance.
[Paragraph mentioning Andrew’s ex-fiancee edited out by Matthew Paul Turner]If this is your final decision, you will also need to know this will not be our final communication as this is not an instance where you can walk away from the mess you have helped create and leave many issues unaddressed.
Please let me know if this is in fact your final decision as we will need to know how to best remain in follow up communication.
****
Andrew hasn’t responded to the pastor’s email. “Toward the end, their desire to control me sort of felt out of control. It’s like they believe that they have some power over me.”
A week or so after that final communication with the Mars Hill pastor, Andrew learned via a phone call with a good friend (a member of Mars Hill Church) what exactly Pastor X meant when he said that Matthew 18 discipline would be “escalated.”
During the conversation, Andrew’s friend mentioned something about “A letter”.
“A letter?” said Andrew. “What letter? I know nothing about it.”
Andrew’s friend informed him that a letter addressed to Mars Hills members had been posted on The City, which is described on Mars Hills’ website as “Mars Hill Church’s online network. Rather than encouraging virtual community, the purpose of The City is to enhance actual relationships within the church…” Andrew described The City to be like “Facebook for Mars Hill members.”
Mars Hill had blocked Andrew’s access to The City. Andrew’s friend copy and pasted the letter (in its entirety) and emailed it to Andrew.
The following is the content of the letter in its entirety.
**UPDATE**A source close to the situation informed me that 1) this letter is real and that it’s posted at The City and 2) that it was sent to a select membership of the Mars Hill Ballard campus. The number of people who received the letter was not available. Please know that I will update this page any time new information that is relevant to this post becomes available.**
(Editor’s note: Names edited out by Matthew Paul Turner).
[scribd id=79241578 key=key-gzjuyp5zj8y3svwzckx mode=list]That’s a mouthful, huh?
Where do I even begin? Honestly, this letter speaks for itself in my opinion. The harsh heavy-handed “theology”. The misuse of scripture to validate their reasoning. The carefully worded instructions on what to say, how to act, etc. The term “gospel shame”? The assumptions that their decisions are to be viewed equal to God’s decisions. At times, this letter comes off like the Roman Catholic church during the Dark Ages.
We discuss Mark Driscoll
But this letter offers a view of how Mars Hill manages their congregation, how they seek to control the words of people, how they manipulate scripture and use it push their rhetoric.
Do they truly believe that they’re the only church on the planet who can help Andrew engage a pathway toward restoration? Is the Mark Machine really that arrogant? That narrow-minded? That narcissistic?
Listen, I know what it feels like to get kicked out of a church. My family went through that in the early 90s. But even that little church of people on the Eastern Shore of Maryland didn’t seek to control how members were to treat us (though most of them knew how to do that on their own).
Mars Hill has been called an abusive environment by many. But “gospel shame”?
When I first read this letter, I was sitting in Starbucks, and I was shaking. Shaking because I was hurting for Andrew. And too, I was shaking because I was so angry that somebody (heck, a lot of somebodies–not just Mark) would use the words and messages of Jesus in such away.
And if this is how they plan to treat Andrew–as an “unbeliever”? How in the world do they treat people who really are non-Christian? (And not to mention the fact that Jesus hung out with Gentiles, tax-collectors, etc.)
Fine. If they don’t want Andrew to be a member of their church, take his name off the list! But this? I mean, seriously, did any of this letter, except for perhaps the “heavy heart”, infer that Mars Hill loves Andrew? Oh I know they think their actions represent love. But really, many of us have experienced firsthand that kind of “love,” and we know very well that it’s an abuse of the term.
I honestly wouldn’t wish this so-called “gospel shame” on Mark Driscoll, let alone somebody I know personally, somebody I’m called to love, somebody I am hoping to help restore.
And you know what’s sad? Many (not all) of Andrew’s friends (from Mars Hill) are “obeying” the advice in this letter. While every one of them has implied that they believe Mars Hill is completely out of line and blowing this out of proportion, they all end up using some variation of the words that Mars Hill told them to say.
Do you think that makes Andrew want to rejoin Mars Hill? Oh, trust me, he’s heart broken. A part of him aches every single time he hears or sees those words.
But he’s also free. And being free, especially in the beginning, is never easy. But in time, as his spirit gets used to living without chains, the love of God will refill Andrew.
And though he knows that the road ahead is not going to be easy, Andrew also knows that God is with him on the journey. “And I’m going to see a counselor. Cuz this hurts, and I don’t want to walk through it alone.”
ALSO READ: Spiritual Abuse Must Stop
A RESPONSE FROM MARS HILL CHURCH
Matthew Paul Turner’s book Churched for free
**Comments have been closed on this post
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Even if I were a biblicist, I wouldn’t think this approach follows the letter of the law. The passage in Matthew describes unacknowledged sin and the remedy which is 1) private discussion; 2) proof before witnesses; and as a last resort 3) discussing the matter with the whole church. If this is not unacknowledged sin, then the paradigm they are using doesn’t fit the apparent meaning of the passage. There is no discussion of a program of tortured repentance.
Incidentally, I am also a lawyer and I am horrified about the letter that went out. Actually, I’m not horrified because I’m a lawyer, I’m horrified because its so cruel and stupid – did I mention stupid? Any sane person reading that would be infinitely less likely to be forthcoming about their own problems or sins for fear of being thrown out of the group or just of being shamed so publicly.
Well, I just skimmed the comments, so I don’t know if anyone else said this, but…..
Did you read the script MH gives to it’s people for interaction with the disfellowshipped? I’m sorry, but I burst out laughing. And if anyone would say those things to my face, I would laugh at them. All this for a young guy who (I guess) was making out with a girl that wasn’t his girlfriend and then stopped? And then owned up to it? What world are these people living in? How old are these people? Who says they are capable of counseling anyone? Who in the world would hand them a list of sexual encounters and emotional attachments?
Andrew, I’m sorry this happened to you, but I’m very, very glad that you are smart enough to just stop interacting with them. And, I’m also very glad that you are willing to share your story. Thank you. There are people who need to know this.
I’m glad some people on here are so “biblically literate” that they can cheekily ’empathize’ with Andrew while simultaneously telling him to suck it up. “Can’t argue with the Bible there, chum! Sorry.”
What happened to Andrew is darkly serious. It was abuse, shame, and humiliation. I used to be a pastor and I know all the arguments for this and I know about motivations too.
This procedure was not about being ‘biblical’, it was about damage control for Mars Hill, plain and simple. It involved a girl who’s father is an elder; that’s a dead giveaway. Mark’s got an empire to run, folks. Can’t have scandal of any kind. The meetings were about establishing roles, and gaining information. It was strategic to save face for the multi-million dollar organization.
Said it before, I’ll say it again. This line from Part 1 sums up Mars Hill cult:
“He even volunteered on Sundays as church security.”
Cults have security. Churches do not.
Logic fail. Bars have security. NBA teams have security. The President of the United States has security. Only the NBA is a cult.
It thankfully hasn’t happened for a while (in the USA anyhow), but people do walk into churches and attack pastors and church members. Pastors have been shot dead by people walking in off the street. And beyond just the issue at hand, Driscoll has put a bulls-eye on himself, so it only makes sense to have security. If I was as hated as Driscoll I’d want security too, just from the commenter on this blog alone!
The church is located in one of the better parts of Seattle. Being afraid of crime there is absurd. It’s simply part of his power trip
While I’m about 2000 miles from Seattle, even I am aware that there have been death threats against Mark Driscoll (which as I mentioned is largely because Mark Driscoll has put that bulls-eye on himself). Just read the comments here and observe some of the vitriol – some of which comes from those who would say they are Christians. Imagine what someone who doesn’t follow Christ might think/say/do. The largest church in my state has a security plan, and being friends with the lead pastor there I can assure you he’s in no way the lightening rod Driscoll is. When you gather thousands and tens of thousands of people in Jesus’ name, it makes sense to have a plan. Even in my small church in a rural area we’ve talked about it – prompted by the last round of church shootings.
Churches definitely have security. The Pope, too, has security. Having security in no way makes an organization a cult.
What it does mean is that the organization has made itself some enemies, or that people within the organization have made themselves enemies. There are okay and not-okay ways to make enemies, but the fact that an organization has done so is significant and something that members should look into so they can better evaluate the merits of the organization.
Forgive me, but to assert that an organization or those within it have created enemies, as made obvious by the team they have in place to protect everyone there, is simply not true. It’s a precaution. There are crazy people everywhere, including churches. And pastors of large churches, just like the famous, are targets.
[…] Part 1 Part 2 […]
Perhaps I should buy helicopter full of copies of “A Tale of Three Kings” and drop them from the skies over Seattle in hopes that someone starts a Mars Hill Recovery Church nearby? Or maybe it should just be called “Venus Hill Church” as so many women would likely need such a church in that area (and a woman should preach there, by the way).
At some point Pastor Driscoll began to drink his own perfume instead of just smelling it, and things have become pretty ugly. I worry that we are going to hear stories like Andrew’s for years to come!
My prayers go out to those like Andrew who are subjected to this kind of over-extension of Matthew 18 and distorted accountability. Yes, the intent to establish some sense of church accountability and discipline in an age of permissiveness and individualism is an admirable instinct for a church like Mars Hill who is making it all up as they go along. However, the final result at Mars Hill shows a great deal of manipulation, misinterpretation and misuse of power.
Denominations are shunned by many as being passe and “over”–however, nearly all of them provide a kind of reasoned structure that actually protect their lay members from the kind of abuse of power we are now seeing at Mars Hill. Final thought: Who can put the elders of Mars Hill under discipline for this or any other action? Nobody. They answer to no one. That’s the key and one of the reasons I have stayed in a denomination even as an emerging church leader. It has it’s frustrations–but in the end I could never pull something like this as I’m not the final authority in my church, in fact, my church, even though it’s a mega-church, still has spiritual and financial authority over it.
No church is an island–unless it wants to flirt with becoming a cult.
Excellent point!
This is so sad. I am praying for Andrew that God will heal his heart and help him know that any condemnation he feels is not from the Holy Spirit. I am also sad because I have seen church discipline handled in the proper way and know that it really can bring restoration. I attended a very large church while in college and unfortunately one of the pastors needed to be disciplined because of an extramarital affair. The senior pastor truly handled it in a biblical way that was neither salacious or condemning. It truly was restorative. The way Mars Hill has done this is just wrong! When the Bible talks about bringing someone before the church it is talking about in the context of continued sin that will not stop even after the elders have gone to the person. It’s a shame that something that the Bible clearly spells out how to handle can be twisted in such a way.
My heart aches for Andrew and I hope he knows that not all churches are like that. I will be praying for him.
So let me get this straight. Andrew screwed up (as every single one of us has, including Mark Driscoll, and don’t anybody pretend different). He, of his own volition, confessed it to people in his group. He then willingly attended a month or so of constant meetings, all of which I imagined centered around his mistake. Also, in the midst of that, people around him in the “church” failed to treat him with love and grace, instead having a negative attitude toward him.
And then they finally demanded that he sign a discipline contract. When he refused, they released the details (naming names) to the entire church?
AND PEOPLE ARE DEFENDING THIS?!!?!
Taking a few verses out of context doesn’t excuse abusive, shame-driven manipulative behavior. Especially when those verses are interpreted in such a way as to give this disturbing power/control to the leaders of an institution masquerading as church.
Can anyone honestly imagine the Jesus of the gospels treating Andrew in such a way? Don’t hide behind a verse or two, actually tell me that you think Jesus would demand that Andrew sign a contract. The Jesus of the gospels was the safest place for the most screwed-up people. The Jesus of the gospels never had a word of condemnation to offer those who were known only by the sins they committed.
In John 5, when Jesus was under attack from the Jewish leaders, he told them that in the midst of their searching the scriptures, they had missed the One that the scriptures were all about. Pretty sure Mars Hill just did the same thing.
And why in the midst of all the scriptures they used to validate their treatment of “sinners”, did they never reference 2 Cor 5:16-21?
16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[a] The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[b] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Interesting that God has stopped counting sins but we do a great job of keeping tabs. Interesting that we’ve been given the ministry of reconciliation, not the ministry of separation.
Okay, I need to stop here. And listen, I’ve still got a lot (I mean, a LOT) of growing and learning to do. If I’ve gotten over-excited and said anything that offends someone, please let me know so I can apologize. It just really hurts to see someone go through this. If we, as the body of Christ, are not the safest place for people in the middle of their worst sins, then what are we?
Sorry folks, I don’t buy all of the commenters supposed allegiance to grace and forgiveness. 90% of the comments in this thread have hammered Mars Hill as a cult even though all that has been heard is one side of the story.
“The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.”
Proverbs 18:17
Ooh, Proverbs war.
“Give beer to those who are perishing, wine to those who are in anguish.” Proverbs 31:6
I’m actually a pretty big fan of that one.
🙂
I’m posting that to my Facebook.:)
Proverbs War Continued:
“A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an insult.” – Proverbs 12:16
or even:
“Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgment.” – Job 32:9
Gotta love Proverbs.
well if we’re gonna allow out of context scriptures applied to folks here’s one for the road… John 9:29 “We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man, we do not know where he comes from.”
I have been following Driscoll since he was the cussing pastor in Blue Like Jazz. Trust me, the other side of the story is obvious by Driscoll himself and what he teaches about many things that are extrabiblical and promote Mark.
Regarding calling MH a cult:
That’s just telling it like it is. Do you think it’s “mean” to call People’s Temple(Jim Jones’s church) a cult? What about the Branch Davidians? What about Heaven’s Gate?
I guess we have to wait until someone dies before it can be official. 😛
all that has been heard is one side of the story.
I said this above, but I’ll say it again. We do have at least some of MH’s “side” here. We have email correspondence from MH; we have official letters from MH; and, we have their public communication about the matter.
We aren’t privy to their internal dialogues and never will be, true, but we do have a good deal of information from both sides.
Wow, this is insanely cultish.
“I did a bad thing and I need help.”
“We’re the church, so we decide if you’re sorry enough.”
“Um.. I think God decides that?”
“No, us. Sign this.”
“Respectfully, I think I’m leaving your church. “
“You can’t leave, we’re excommunicating you. And slandering you to all your friends. only because we love you, of course.”
…
This sums it up pretty much perfectly, I think.
“At times, this letter comes off like the Roman Catholic church during the Dark Ages.”
As a Catholic Christian, I respectfully take great offense to this statement. I know the history of my Church very well & to intimate that the Catholic Church has ever used such offensive & un-Christian tactics as described in your post is uncharitable & untruthful.
Catholics & Protestants use many of the same words but give slightly (& sometimes not so slightly) different meanings to them. This could be what has happened here. (For example, Protestants consistently mistake the meaning of the word “anathema” as used historically by the Catholic Church.) I’m not sure what sorts of incidents you would be referring to in such a statement but, based on history & the teaching of the Catholic Church for 2000 years, it’s unfounded. To make such a claim without citing specific examples does not lend your post any strength. In fact, a far more apt comparison would have been that of Jim Jones.
Andrew’s experiences with Mars Hill are horrific & I, as a member of the Body of Christ, am stunned by the treatment he received. It should make Christians every quite angry that the name of Christ is being misrepresented & misused to purposefully divide the Body & do harm to a believer. Cult-like tactics, indeed. I’ll keep Andrew & all involved in my prayers.
So if it wasn’t the Roman Catholic Church that was pretty well-known for having controlled (and often limiting) art, culture, philosophy, morals, politics, and education during the Dark Ages–hence, the Dark ages–which church was it?
I know the history of my Church very well & to intimate that the Catholic Church has ever used such offensive & un-Christian tactics as described in your post is uncharitable & untruthful.
The witch hunts? (The Medieval ones… )
That weird somewhat ugly trial of Galileo?
Inquisition?
I mean, come on. I love the Catholic Church. But it, on numerous occasions, has been just a wee bit nastier than Mark Driscoll… maybe?
Only because they could get away with that stuff at the time. If Driscoll (or many other churches today for that matter) could legally get away with it, they’d do exactly the same thing
That doesn’t make it right. What about indulgences to get people to go on Crusades so that Rome can have the income from the Holy Land.
BTW Your pope would have hired Sandusky. I can’t actually believe that the Catholic Church is allowed to function.
Reading this nearly made me physically sick.
I was apart of a ministry with similar disciplinary measures and control. I recently wrote about it in Provoketive Magazine: http://provoketive.com/2012/01/16/the-c-word/
All I can say is, man, I understand the pain Andrew must be going through. I’m glad he had the strength to leave and the strength to seek a counselor to help him walk through it. It took me a long time to work through the pain and anger.
Once again we find ourselves as compassionate people who believe in healing and restoration grieving the actions of Mark Driscoll and the pastor/leaders at Mars Hill Church in Seattle. It is a fine line we walk here in examining this actions and making Godly decisions or reactions without judging. I do not find this article surprising nor is it the first time I have heard of such an action being taken by Mars Hill or its affiliate church plant Anchor in Wallingford. It grieves me yet I feel the caution not to judge but to pray for God to burst into this congregation and their leaders. I had to walk away and think and pray before I responded to what I could not resist to comment on. I felt the Lord guiding me to a picture of his very action in similar circumstances, the woman caught in adultery, John 8:1-11. It is a simple story, there is no indication that the woman was sorry or repentant. Yet the Lord challenged the actions of those who were about to carry out church discipline based on the Mosaic law given by God to guide the people, not the woman, the sinner. His reaction to the woman was “I do not condemn you, go and leave your life of sin.” This very statement reveals in its tenses that she perhaps had not yet repented and at that point was still walking in her sexual sin yet the Lord saved her and forgave her. I just challenge you to dwell on this scripture and ask the Lord how you should pray for Mars Hill and for Andrew and others who have been hurt by their version of church discipline. I know that had I been there and confronted with the words, “he who is without sin can cast the first stone” I would also have had to drop my stone and walk away.
Sorry Brook, I was trying to comment on the article and ended up replying in your space. I am new at this. At lease we have the same heart.
Great answer. Excellent answer.
this “admonishment” that is supposed to align with Matt. 18 does not fit the criteria of excommunication orhaving nothing to do with the person, first of all andrew came forward and realized what he had done so that means
he is walking in the light he was forthright which means he did repent and if he needs accountabilty like all of us do
it should have stayed with a person he could trust in love and confidentiality what was made of this whole thing was
QUITE OVER THE TOP and not SCRIPTUAL ANDREW the Lord has already forgiven you and it is far as the east is from the west i am sure you sought the 2 ladies to let them know of your remorse God bless you
Amen to all the above! This is a tragedy! And, this torturous, punitive punishment was not focused on shepherding Andrew’s heart, nor accurately communicated the Gospel of Grace! Jesus frees captives, not water-boards them! Poor guy!I am familiar with church disciple and have been a member at several churches that have done it well (and know of many more that have as well)! This would not have happened like this! Andrew’s actions would have been seen as repentant. A handful of loving, caring people and leaders would have held him accountable and prayed and met with him. At most, he would have been asked to stop taking communion for a time and then reinstated (Jesus reinstates – John 21!). The girl would have also been shepherded and cared for AS WELL AS held held accountable, but both she and Andrew would have have this done by small groups, and not whole churches. There are grace-based ways to handle these situations, but FIRST it must be remembered that judgment is the LORD’S (not ours), and we are to weep over sin (ours and others), knowing that the Devil is the Enemy. Finally, we should be humble, because we too are tempted by sin and capable of sinning! Did Andrew and that girl sin: yes and it sounds like they both know that. Are all people who holey rely on Jesus forgiven: yes because of grace. Are forgiven people to rejoice in grace and to strive to live according to the righteous standing before God they’ve been give: YES, we are to give all to Jesus because he has given EVERYTHING to us!
Have mercy on us all, Lord!
Praying for you, Andrew. And Matthew, if we ever cross paths, I owe you a dinner.
You know, I had heard stories of Mark Driscoll before and tried to give him the benefit of the doubt before I jumped to conclusions. After reading this, it’s taking everything in me not to scream. This story makes me physically sick to my stomach, and the pain that Andrew is feeling is one that I would never wish on anyone. This mega-church needs a reality check on what they’re SUPPOSEDLY about; Jesus would never excommunicate a sinner. Jesus loved them all, and through his word he would try to show his love to everyone. Mark Driscoll is a disgusting human.
Emily, I agree with you that Mars Hill is way over the top, probably pathological. I do disagree about never excommunicating. That is exactly what Paul is writing about in I Cor 5. He says not to associate with people who call themselves Christians, but act like unbelievers, not admitting their sin and/or not interesting in changing. Andrew in this story is not such a person: he pre-emptively confessed his sin and sought restoration.In contrast, I think of a non-church example here in Pennsylvania: assistant coach at Penn State Jerry Sandusky was allegedly seen committing heinous acts on a minor. A 3rd party told football coach Joe Paterno. He consulted administration, asking them to investigate. End of story. In my opinion, this would have been proper place for disciplinary action of every church as described above, plus law enforcement involvement. The difference is:
1. The “sinner” [special case usage, does not take into account we are all sinners] did not confess freely, but was caught.
2. A person so accused having no interest in submitting to ANY accountability.
I suggest a healthy accountability in something like the Mars Hill story, would have been between the guy and one or two men possibly friends, as go to people for support. When they went from a couple of meetings of finding out what happened, and what the unfortunate couple’s intentions were, to multiple meetings involving a bunch of different people, they went inquistional. It sounds like that may be the norm for this mega church.
I just wanted to interject that there must be a place for “church discipline” for the integrity of the “Church” and for the protection of its members.
Wow. This is hard to believe but yet I understand it oh so well. This is exactly how my family was treated when we finally decided to leave an independent baptist fundamental church. They do believe that they are the only ones who can restore the individual to the church. They write nasty letters to other churches in the community when the “disciplined” member goes to another church, and so on and so on.
I am so glad to see Andrew’s response to this situation. I am glad he is seeing a therapist. It is so hard to walk that road alone. Freedom is worth it all! He is responding with humility and maturity. It is a shame that Mars Hill doesn’t do the same.
I want to see the church discipline contract for the member who confessed to gluttony.
Better yet, to all of us who make a “lifestyle of sin” by ignoring orphans and widows.
Yes!!! This topic caused a lot of hostile conversation between a Mars Hill member and myself. They were asking for donations on their facebook to make “Christian resources available online for free” (what that meant was electronic versions of Driscoll’s sermons and smaller books). I commented saying there were a lot of homeless in Seattle and that some of the money could help alleviate the poverty issue there, and a half dozen comments came back at me tearing me to pieces. It’s sad, really.
Seems like they are trying to imitate LifeChurch.tv as they have any resource that they have ever developed online for free.
I’m not an attendee there, but the Bible app that they developed is outstanding and it’s free. I’m also pretty sure they don’t excommunicate people as they don’t have members.
This is a sad story on both parts, cheating on your fiancée is a bad deal. I’m sure she’s devastated as she’s still caught up in the mess and can’t escape.
However what he did was bad, but what the church did was worse. I wonder if Mars Hill has an altar where they still sacrifice animals as it seems they believe Jesus wasn’t good enough.
Ha! Kudos. They see a crumb, but forget the planks in their eyes. Not to bash this church, but the whole ordeal is ridiculous.
YES.
this is a brilliant response.
i would like to the one for those who confess to pride.
I want to see the one for sloth.
He never got around to confessing.
zing!
^^^ This wins all – lol!
I would laugh, but I don’t feel like moving my mouth.
I started it, but quit after 2 days, hehehehehehe
Well said sir.
Where to begin? Well, i know that hurting people dont always care about what is logical, and people who are empathetic rarely master the skill of both empathy and systematic thought at the same time. We usually lean one way or the other. All I can say is, we should trust the Words of Christ….thats what believers do. Mat 18 is part of the Bible…..and it does tell us that we need to deal with offence. Weather we are offended with someone, or they are offended with us…we need to deal with it….At least…we need to try. The Kingdom of Heaven is all about relationships.
Im not taking sides here…but I am saying that if anyone here will allow themselves to be hurt, and indluge in those kind of feelings without obeying the Bible…..there will be a real problem with your relationship with God…..no matter what church you go to.
If Andrew was my best freind, and he had slept with my little sister….I would want him to man up and admit that he was wrong…and id wear any charge of being to harsh as a badge of honor.
1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6 That no [man] go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
Be sure to abase yourself so that Christ can exalt you. He does exalt in due time.
Im sorry it happened. So are you. Why not just say so? If you didnt say so and I was responsible for my little sister…..id be tougher than Mark if you didnt really come clean. The Bible does talk about proving you are sincere….God may know……but how is anyone else supposed to know unless you tell them?
I sure wouldnt know. Telapathy is not a requirement to build relationships…..but openness and brokeness is.
Wow…
Bro Kev you are so full of shit. If that type of shame and manipulation is what you support, then…thank god that I am not a agnositc. If you are going to defend pieces of shit like Mark Driscoll than I’m glad to be out of the Christian community.
When I wonder…will they have such a contract for gluttony, greed, pride, anger, etc..? I’m the god-damned agnostic, where are the Bereans? Can’t you guys police yourself? And you expect non-believers like me to listen to this”good news” from such assholes?
No…I’d rathor walk into hell with my head held high then associate with a faith that tolerates this kind of crap.
As a christian….I happen to agree with you, Eagle. Many of us have failed by example. What you see and hear is not how Jesus commanded us He called to live. I myself am tired of this so called church that preaches the Love and Mercy of God, but we ourselves have failed miserably by not demostrating Who He said He is. I am sick of church myself. When Jesus came to abolish the law, why do pastors and leaders still preach the old testament by saying we must give 10 percent of our income? They preach and manipulate the Gospel to make christian feel ‘guilty.” That if you are not a giver of your money then God won’t bless you or that you not qualified for ministry, etc. That is sure crap preaching to me. Many Churches have become an institutionalized business. So many people that I know want to be pastors because they see that people give to these institution. Their motives is MONEY! All you need is to entertain them with some fancy words of preaching and they will GIVE ALL THEY HAVE. These people are as GULLIBLE AND IGNORANT because they don’t become like the BEREAN and SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES BY THEMSELVES and allow Holy Spirit which is the HELPER JESUS sent us. Many Pastors benefits from the people’s money and so they travel, buy homes that cost millions of dollars, they have cars, they have people cleaning their home, babysitters, housekeepers, and a good bank account for them and their family. They invest their money wisely. I myself HAVE QUESTIONS ABOUT THIS CRAP! I mean I don’t have a problem with pastors living well, but where is the simplicity or humbleness of their lifestyle. We must be careful how people read us. Many of them have allowed greed and lack of integrity corrupt their hearts. These mega churches is all about the money and money and money. Then some pastors have someone write a book for them and by that they profit off of other people’s testamony. For example, I tell the person who is writing a book for your pastor about my story and they will beautify it with words. So that is more $$$$. Pastor have power and control and if you allow them to control you, then they will be your god. The only one that should have control of you is God. Knowing God is personal and intimate. What I am witnessing in the Christian community is sickening to my stomach as well. All I can say, Eagle! God do understand how disgusting you are with how many of His so called representative are living….and by you being disgusted by it, God is not offended! That is why Jesus is a personal Savior and Friend. You can hate the church, but hate on Jesus. He is the ONLY ONE WHO WON’T FAIL NOR DISAPPOINT YOU.
PLEASE EXCUSE MY ERRORS……I AM VERY TIRE OF THE CHURCH.
A few things here, 1 Bro Kev, I don’t care for quoting anti-fornication verses out of context. Its one of our favorite things to do as Christians and used like this their only purpose is for clubbing.
That said, I would agree that if Andrew wasn’t repentant there would be some serious issues with maintaining a relationship with him and him continuing in ministry. That seems to be the assertion with the whole Mars Hill pastoral crew, Andrew wasn’t repentant. But the thing is, according to this interview, he WAS repentant. So the question then becomes why the two different opinions? Did he simply not “prove” to the ministry staff that he was repentant *enough*? Did he downplay his responsibility to them? Did he not try to repair relationships the way they claimed? I tend to believe Andrew over the administration but there’s really no way to know. But since Andrew is the one talking you should probably comment on what he’s saying not what “those other guys over there might have said.”
If he was repentant, he should have been restored in love. Maybe he needed to go through counseling session to help rebuild some relationships or help grow past the things that caused him to stumble but the only reason he should have been cast out of fellowship like this is if he was in violent willful rebellion. I don’t think that’s the case.
I also agree that Matthew 18 IS in the bible and YES we do need to deal with it. I happen to hate that I have to deal with those verses, they suck and I want to tear them out. But it’s from God so I gotta figure it out. But I think we should take extreme care when exercising these verses. It should be so rare, in fact, that having a preprinted and established policy like Mars Hill does is troubling to me.
Eagle, I think your reaction is misplaced. If you read Bro Kev’s comments, he’s not actually supporting what Mars Hill did, he’s offering another point of view. How he would react if he was faced with a guy that slept with his sister and wasn’t repentant. That’s called dialog and its a good thing, especially in Christian circles when we tend to get overly emotional and self-righteous. Being abusive like that makes it hard to respect anything you say.
Chris,
Actually Christ said I came not to abolish the law but to fulfill the law (Matthew 5:17). That’s a very significant difference. The law matters as far as it pertains to Christ. As it happens, everything that Mars Hill did in this case, came from the new testament. I don’t think they’re actions were right, but your objection is misplaced.
Also I find your description of Mars Hill kind of inaccurate too. It may be legalistic, harsh, and flat out wrong but they do search the scriptures. Also Mars Hill is a big church and has some screwy practices that bother me (like this one!) but they are hardly a fire and brimstone fleece the flock give me your money church. Mark Driscoll’s lifestyle is not particularly flamboyant or opulent. I mean unless I am missing something? If I am please let me know.
Please understand, I’m not agreeing with what they did. It was very wrong, but this is all irresponsible mudslinging that doesn’t really have anything to do with the subject.
Well put. Couldn’t have said it better myself!
Eagle,
If you are an agnostic, why are you reading a Christian blog? Also, what you are reading here is the church policing itself. Mr. Turner has done a great service to Mars Hill Members by exposing the details of this situation from Andrew’s point of view. God willing, it will be seen by them and they will start to question how and why they are doing things such as this.
To everyone else, if you are on Twitter, retweet a link to this story. If you are on Facebook, post it. Got a blog? post a link. Eventually, Andrew’s story WILL reach the ears of Mars Hill members. They are ultimately responsible for how their particular church functions and they need to know the whole story.
Are only christians allowed to peruse christian media?
I don’t think I got that memo. As far as I’m aware, Eagle is free to read, comment, and do what he sees fit.
“Can’t you guys police yourself?”
Well… That was what Mars Hill was trying to do. Non-believers want the church to be accountable for it’s Christians, and then when the church tries to do this scripturally, now non-believers are complaining that it’s trying to be a cult and control peoples minds. Mars Hill is really in a no-win situation here with the world, but the world is not it’s judge…
Mathew 18 says if someone sins against you. Although some translations do not include ‘against you’. Then go to them inprivate. IF THEY CONFESS THEIR SIN THEN YOU HAVE WON THEM BACK.
Thats it. No inserying youself as judge over whether or not they are operating out of a repentant heart. No establishing 20 hoops to jump through to prove they are repentant….. Just a confession…. He confessed to the sin without provocation which proves a repentant heart. They proceeded to mine him for more sins in an abusive manner then use these as leverage against him to make him dance like their little puppet.
This was so far above and beyond any authority jesus gives us in mathew 18 its sickening. It was abuse of power so disturbing we all should be storming he gates.
This is a young man probably early twenties who was bullied by thugs using the word of god like a cudgel to beat him with…. And it is typical behavior at MH. My heart and prayers go out to andrew…. Thank the lord our god for pulling Andrew out of there…. God uses everything… Everything….Even andrews sin, for his glory.
Bro. Kev,
Did you not read “Part One” of this two-part story? Andrew confessed and repented REPEATEDLY. He, not the girl, brought his sin to the attention of church leadership. He was brokenhearted. He stopped the wrong conduct. He was not continuing in sin. The “church discipline” was instituted after he repented as a sign of power and outward control over him.
Bro kev, I cant be harsh on you. I disagree a bit, but I dont feel that unkindness will help at all. I can see what you mean in your agreeing in a sense. If Andrew was completely unrepentant, I too would try to bring the gravity of his actions to the forefront of his mind. But this is not the case. Andrew was repentant, he seeked help and he is continually seeking real community to work this out in. When someone knows their crime and there wrong, what is accomplished by repeating it over and over? I want to thank Andrew for opening himself up in a hard time like this. His pain sparks discussion which strengthens the body of Christ. Andrew, if you ever read this, know that there sits at least one person who supports you in prayer and believes in you. you have taken immense strides out of your sins and have never fallen out of Gods grace, love and favor. Rejoice Andrew, you are a part of the extraordinary body of Christ.
Oh, such shit you talk.
True, the verses are there, and probably true the church believes it’s following the right path laid out for them in disciplining in this way. But how does the voyeuristic content in the contract derive from the verses? I get the feeling Andrew, despite his Spirit-stirrings to the contrary, would have tried to see his way clear to signing and continuing if not for those really rather sickening lines.”Andrew will write out in detail his sexual and emotional attachment history withwomen and share it with XXX.
Andrew will write out in detail the chronology of events and sexual/emotional sinwith K and share it with XXX and Pastor X.”
Write out in detail? What details do they want here? And why would anyone agree to detailing all that out for men to read? Why do those men want to read the details? They’ve had the confession, they’ve heard the remorse and shame, what does detailing every smidgen of sexual sin do here, exactly?
Exactly.
Because it entails banging a teenage girl. They wanna hear all about it. I wonder what their internet history looks like.
Lori, I think you and some others here are reading those lines in the contract in a way that is different than they were intended. This can often happen when we are upset by something or feel like our rights/boundaries have been overstepped. I do not believe they are asking for every graphic detail, but instead what they are looking for is patterns and weaknesses that led to the incident with the girl. The only way to truly help someone when they have confessed a problem is to know the scope of the problem and what has to be fixed, and often we are blind to our own issues. Counselors and accountability partners ask things like this too. The goal is not to shame the person or even to make them feel like they are laid bare, but to reveal sin and lies that deceive us and distort our lives. If we are hiding things, especially from those who we are going to in confession, then we should probably take a hard look at why. In Andrew’s case, I am not sure those asking for the information were the people he would choose to reveal that information to, so it probably felt invasive, but I honestly believe there was a good heart that was implemented poorly behind the statements.
I am sure many here disagree with me.
Of course many will disagree with you, because this is clearly an abuse of church reach and power and is blatantly offensive and wrong and completely contrary to the message of Christ. This Mars Hill church is way off base and if you can’t see that after see how they handled this and how they treated Andrew then I feel sorry for you. It would take a massive amount of bias or distortion of truth and reality to side with Mars Hill on this. I am appalled by the contract and especially by the letter they posted to all church members. It is obvious this is their attempt to defame and humiliate Andrew. Also, did the girl involved have to sign a contract? Thank you to Matt Turner for this. Hopefully the word will get out about the abusive nature of this Church so it can be avoided.
@drshore, my comment was only about those few lines in the contract. In other comments I shared that I have been spiritual abused, and horribly mistreated in another church, resulting in excommunication. Unlike Andrew, I tried to jump through all the hoops and found only further pain. I know firsthand the impact that abuse of church power, spiritual malpractice, and spiritual abuse can create. I have worked with a number of people who have been abused, trying to help them find healing. I agree this situation has not been handled correctly, and I am troubled deeply that other church leaders refuse to address these issues and confront pastors/leaders that abuse, manipulate, control, and treat unjustly.
Where is the church discipline contract for Driscoll for being a prideful asshole?
Maybe the Church at large needs to send him one.
Write the petition, I’ll put my name on it.
It’s actually prideful, bullying asshole, if you don’t mind
oh…. snap!
Yesss!!
where do i sign?
Yeah. I want to see the contract for the person who violated Jesus’ clear commandment in Matthew 7:1.
This just looks like abuse to me. Sounds like he repented and repented, but they still want to punish and punish. Not very Christlike at all.
I’d rather see a discipline contract for someone who acts like a sex obsessed blaspheming foul mouthed pervert…oh wait that’s Mark Driscoll!
‘Scuse me, what’s wrong with being a sex-obsessed blaspheming foul mouth pervert?
WOW. Dead on response.
I was accused and excommunicated by a pastor who suffered three heart attacks due to obesity. The last one killed him. Hypocrisy is worse than any sin because it shows no forgiveness or mercy.
Guh. This is so hard, cause 4 years ago I really thought Mark (and Mars Hill) was really doing something positive for the city of Seattle. However the more and more I read and listen to Mark the more and more concerned I get for his church and the impact he is having on Seattle (and across North America). This is by far one of the craziest things I’ve read to date. To out and ostracize someone so blatantly is unacceptable in my opinion. Yes sin needs to be brought into light, and yes people need to know about it, but to paint this gentleman Andrew in such a sinister light is just wrong, especially in front of the whole church body. Yes he was in “leadership” if you can call being security leadership in a church capacity, but seriously, he’s not on staff, he’s not an elder, he’s a volunteer who made a mistake. Restore, help, and move on!
I couldn’t agree more. I also used to think Mars Hill was doing great things for Seattle, seeing as the Pacific Northwest is so “unchurched” but it seems Mark has taken things too far and actions like this are only going to make people in Seattle turn away from the church even more.
It terrifies me the hold he’s beginning to get among young men here in the UK.
So how do those people evangelise if this is the way they treat unbelievers?
This is really sick and twisted!!!
Well, actually, this is the way they treat believers…. I can’t imagine what it’s like for unbelievers.
From what i know of them they treat unbelievers much better, as they should. You cannot discipline someone not of your beliefs. I think a lot of X-ians miss that. We are to confess to each other, we are to be disciplined by those more mature. The lost, being lost & not of the kingdom, are already condemned so we need to show them grace & love. Just as a father cannot discipline a son that is not his, we cannot discipline those outside our family.
How many times is a person supposed to confess? How many times can they repent? Mark Driscoll doesn’t even lead by example? Why should people follow him? Man I’m grateful to be an agnostic….
actually, Mark Driscoll makes it a point to confess his sins on a weekly basis. Just two weeks ago he again apologized for his chauvinistic tendencies during earlier years of the church.
It sounds to me like Driscoll does these “confessions” mainly to make himself look humble, since it doesn’t seem to ever lead to serious behaviour change.
He is escpecially good at that type of confession……
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6mmTXVTil8
I don’t think I have ever been more confused by anything in my entire life.
I can’t tell if that was genuine or not, but if your pastor, and your repenting of pride, shouldn’t you step away from the pulpit?
Have I gone crazy town? Is the doormouse in my tea cup? Did someone steal the Driscoll’s tarts?
So in Matthew 18, Jesus tells us to treat those under church discipline like tax collectors. And he shows us how to treat tax collectors by inviting them to be his disciples, by eating with them, by loving them just the same.
Not to mention that that verses directly following the church discipline verses are about the ones who refuse to forgive. Not the ones who refuse to ask for forgiveness, but those who refuse to GIVE forgiveness.
This will certainly be my challenge today – to extend forgiveness to those who hurt others in the name of the gospel.
Plus, Matthew, who wrote this verse, was a “tax collector” and “sinner” who was found by Jesus.
Great catch there. Thanks for the comment! Helps me in my understanding, too!
amen and amen. They will know we are his followers by our love. In Corinthains 13 that love is described. The grace we were shown is to be the same grace we show–parable of the unforgiving servant.
I am not sure the church is ever to stand in the place of determining if some one has repented “enough”. We walk together, and stumble together, and get back up and walk forward together again.
Forgive and you will be forgiven……..is this how they see God? The forgiveness they have been given from God depends on how repentant they are? What a harsh God!
Preach it Alise!
Zaccheus, you come down. For I’m coming to your house today. Yes, I’m coming to your house today.
Fantastic response Alise.
I kind of felt Matthew 18 didn’t really apply here anyway. I mean, it says, “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you…”
This wasn’t something he needed pointed out. He admitted to it, was remorseful and asked for help.
An excellent, compassionate, and faithful response. Thank you.
I actually wanted to comment something exactly like this. Also perhaps they can ask, How did Jesus treat sinners? With love, respect, and grace. Not a list of requirements to prove their repentant and contrite heart. This sickens me since I believe I knew Andrew as a child. (Not confirmed, but I have my hunch about this situation.) It hurts and burdens me that the body of Christ would do this to one of their own.
If this were a tweet, I would re-tweet. Very, very nicely put.
you, my e-friend, are amazing. well said.
As a person who was in a leadership position that was put in a very very awkward position, I can tell you that I agree with you that it is good and important to forgive. I can also tell you how hard that s as well. I read this and my situation was similar in some ways with Andrew and there were days I had trouble getting out of bed. I have forgiven and in the process of forgiving, but please know how hard it is.
Not that you don’t.
“And he shows us how to treat tax collectors by inviting them to be his disciples, by eating with them, by loving them just the same. ”
Yes, you are correct here but you are missing a very key point. That he does love them the way they are but in order to be a disciple he calls them to repentance and not to stay where they are. There is a dichotomy of believes so to speak in the American church today, which the one side of the church says and preaches love, love, love, but they never preach true repentance and the other side says hate the sin, hate the sin, hate the sin and calls the sinner to “repentance” but not in love. You and most people on this blog seem to fall into the love love love category and in MH actions they are very much leaning to the second category. We must as a church forget the things that separate us and begin to focus more on Christ and not small issue. When we disagree with someone’s theology, which I would guess most of you do disagree with Driscoll’s theology, we look for every account to find wrongs and chastise them. And the other side does the same. Rather than making arguments, let us make sure we are calling people to what Jesus expects of them. Let’s look to scripture.
John 8
1 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 Early in the morning he came again to the temple. All the people came to him, and he sat down and taught them. 3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst 4 they said to him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. 5 Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?” 6 This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. 7 And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground. 9 But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. 10 Jesus stood up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” 11 She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.”]]
Jesus calls this women to sin no more, true repentance. A place where actions speak louder than words and both the love of Christ and the power of the spirit are shown through the person’s actions. If we fail to call a person to change their actions we are failing to love them. You can’t show love without doing so.
I could go on and on with words but I will end there for now. And if you havent been in a position of leadership where there is someone in your body who is committing sexual sins against people in your body and you havent seen the harm and destruction that can take place through that one person’s actions, you can’t speak of how to handle this issue. I have been there and I think the letter MH sent out took it a step to far, but every action prior to that was valid and good. The letter is unnecessary and the body will come together to build their brothers and sisters up and speak against what the person has done and how their brothers and sisters should act toward that one person. That is my first hand experience.
Beautifully put Alise. That will be my challenge as well.
Glad you pointed that out.
That’s what’s so amazing about Matthew 18. We use it to kick folks out of fellowship, but Jesus seems to tell his disciples to treat them like a tax collector or a Gentile.
The tax collector was standing there with them – and ultimately is the one who shared this story. He knew exactly what Jesus was saying.
Another disciple standing there understood what Jesus was saying as well.
As he looked at the tax collector in their midst and saw his past and knew how much the teacher loved and cherished him.
He had been witness to this teacher showing grace and compassion and love to each person in the group.
But he couldn’t get beyond the past.
He didn’t consider himself perfect by any means but he often wondered, “How much is enough? How long will he continue to love and forgive what this tax collector did? How long will he continue to show each of us unconditional love? When will the tide turn?”
As the teacher continued speaking, the thoughts continued to rise up in him.
Finally he blurted out, “Teacher!”
The teacher turned and looked towards him.
“Teacher. How many times do I have to forgive a brother or sister who’s hurt me?” he asked. “Seven times?”
He looked towards the tax collector and then back to the teacher.
The teacher smiled and responded, “Seven?”
The teacher laughed.
“Seven times? Hardly! Try seventy times seven.”
The teacher then smiled back at the fisherman and then at the tax collector and then continued his teaching.
(adapted from a few posts I wrote a while back – http://casadeblundell.com/jonathan/a-change-of-heart
I sit here in stunned silence, thinking this sort of thing only happened in the circles I used to run in… Not only is this controlling and unscriptural, but worthy of a slander/defamation of character lawsuit… I’ve seen it done before, and successfully, too!
Brian – that’s exactly what I was thinking too. They have twisted his original confession more than enough for him to bring a claim against them. This is insane!
My heart cries out and aches for Andrew! I had no idea that this level of cruelty is done by the church. I am angry, I am upset and I too am shaking. This church could almost be labeled as a cult with the amount of control they try to use. May Andrew be surrounded with God’s healing love as he steps into freedom. May he find a safe place to restore his soul and heal his broken heart. May he never identify the love of God’s love with this church’s theology, may he know that God’s love is so much more and so different. Thanks to him for being brave enough to share his story.
So here’s my question.
How many posts on Mark Driscoll can people like Matt, Rachel Held Evans, and whoever else speaks up before his pastor friends confront him. I watched some of last years Elephant Room, and I was just angered by some of the pastors sucking up too him like he;s the greatest thing since sliced bread.
He’s up tomorrow. Is there one of them that will stand up and ask some hard questions to him and it’s church?
You are joking, right? The Elephant Room idiots are all just like Driscoll. They are just like him. You don’t think Furtick and MacDonald run cult mind control “ministries”? That’s why they all hang out at stuff like Elephant Room and speak at each others gigs for high super high honorariums. Birds of a feather man…
On another hand, my heart goes out to Andrew, the Lord will see him through and he will heal. What a travesty of truth, justice, and the Jesus way. KIA by friendly fire! Nice one Driscoll.
Kevin, I agree with you about the role the MH church takes in all this. Between their leadership and the congregation, they are giving him all the power he wants without holding him biblically accountable for his actions. I hate to say it, but his day is going to come sometime soon and someone is going to go after him for what he did to them. I have a friend who was ousted in the same way by Mark and the other clones at MH. Sad.
Heavy hearts all around on this one.
I think the bigger deal with all of this is how churches try to create “biblical” systems and then the system sort of takes over. This sure smells like that to me, but there are plenty of systems that are causing all kinds of issues in our churches today. It’s tough to create guidelines without giving them too much power, ya know?
Exactly.
What is amazing to me is that in all of these discipline-type things, it’s a never-ending loop of LOVE that we see. You sin & we treat you like a tax collector? Well, Jesus loved on those guys. You don’t forgive & you’re handed over to the torturers? Well, Jesus took that on himself as well.
No matter which way we turn, we see love & grace demonstrated.
That we turn that into something that hurts people and call it love? This cannot be.
That perfectly sums up my thoughts on this matter.
***the system sort of takes over***
Ding Ding Ding. We have a winner.
I paraphrase for you from the Book of Coach K: “Rules box people in and keep them from making intelligent decisions.”
…on this (Love) hang all the law and all the prophets.
Good catch earlier by Alise, who pointed out that Jesus treated tax collectors and Gentiles pretty well.
You know, the whole eating with them and befriending them and dying to save their souls thing…
Unbelievable. How do they even begin to reach out to unbelievers if this is how they’re supposed to treat them? There is a distinct disconnect between this idea of discipline and biblical evangelism and restoration. And of course, you can’t change their minds because Driscoll and Mars Hill are so successful they have to be right! (Where is that sarcasm font when you need it????)
Wow, this brings back flashbacks to the traditional mennonite church (almost Amish) I grew up in. That is almost identical to how they treat someone that doesn’t follow church discipline. So sad.Andrew, I’m sorry for the pain you’ve gone through and will have to continue to process. But run man, run! You’ll be glad you did.
I live in Pennslyvania, fairly close to Lancaster County, and the church discipline in this situation reminds me of “shunning.”
I’m not sure all Mennonite churches behave that way. Granted, I grew up in a Mennonite Brethren church (which may or may not be different than just straight up Mennonite). Yes, it has its faults but I never once heard anyone being excommunicated or anything about shaming others or this obsessive “church discipline”. All the MB churches I stepped foot in had people that would help you — and feed you great tasting food that you couldn’t resist. It was very much family-oriented, and its faults never included such power hungry corruption as displayed by Mars Hill.
Maybe I’m just lucky, but I have never been to such a church as MH or personally met anyone like Mark Driscoll; though I’d probably die a little inside if I ever did.
You’re right, not all Mennonite churches behave that harshly–mine is actually open and affirming to LGBTQ, which places it at the far end of the spectrum (I’m sure Mark Driscoll would have some MAJOR issues with this!).
The Mennonite church has a wide tradition and a long history, including associations with Amish and also with “Old Order” Mennonites who are quite conservative in dress and theological belief. The more mainstream Mennonite church (Mennonite Church USA) of which I’m a part falls along a spectrum where some conferences and churches are more conservative, some more liberal. I belong to a church where shunning is seen as archaic, and where the gospel of peace would never allow something like what happened to Andrew to happen. I feel for him, especially for the loss of community and the loss of trust. Time to grow new roots–I truly hope Andrew doesn’t give up on the possibility for Christian community that is not based solely on inclusion/exclusion.
where is your church at? i’m looking for one similar in southern cal.
There’s a Mennonite church in Pasadena that I attended while a college student. I found the people really lovely and passionate about their faith, and they were very kind and accepting (even though I was the only undergrad student that attended, I felt very cared for and my time in that congregation was a real blessing). Good luck!
Dnez, it’s in Madison, Wisconsin.
While not all Mennonite churches practice shunning today, historically, it’s one of their major tenets. You can find it explicitly in the earliest writings of the Mennonites.
Various examples here: http://www.mennosimons.net/horsch11.html
I grew up in the Mennonite church and my dad is a Mennonite pastor, so I’ve been a member of several Mennonite congregations (although I’m not now), but I’ve never seen or heard of it happening in the mainstream Mennonite church. It happens in some Amish communities and may happen in conservative Mennonite communities (plain dress Old Order Mennos), but, in my experience, it’s not part of the modern Mennonite church. I know older folks who were around during those times, and their experience with excommunication was very painful, so I think they’ve intentionally moved away from that practice.
I know some people who used to be old order and shunning or at least not associating with people who leave the old order is still very much around.
“this letter comes off like the Roman Catholic church during the Dark Ages.”Actually, this sounds like shunning in the Amish communities around where I live in Ashland County, OH. My understanding is that the Mennonites and Amish split over the question of shunning. The Amish advocated full social exclusion — the Mennonites barred members under discipline from communion.
It is wild to think that Mars Hill is some kind of emerging radical anabaptist sect far to the right of most Mennonites!
Love the conclusion of Matthew 18 with how the church respond with discipline, to treat as if they are a Gentile or tax-collector. Yet somehow this has been abused into excommunication, but believe Jesus would instead focus on hospitality and join Andrew around the table.
In their minds, that is exactly what they are doing – talking to him firmly but with warm, fuzzy, “We still love you, and Jesus loves you too” talk to welcome him back into the fold. Trying to make them see it from the other perspective would take some serious work.
I understand what Andrew’s going through, I recently left a large organization/church/network/denomination that when people started seeing the differences in my viewpoint, its suprising how hostile people(who considere themselves Christian) can be. It feels like you’re being torn down the middle, it’s even harder when almost everyone you know is from that old place you were at. Fortunately, my situation isn’t as extreme as Andrew’s, but my heart is very heavy for his situation. However, I have seen time and time again that through bad situations like this, God finds a way to bring peace for all sides.
Thanks for sharing this Andrew and Matthew.
I consider myself a progressive Christian who has been a fan of Mark Driscoll. He’s definitely more conservative than I am, but I keep listening to his sermons because they focus on Jesus. No, I don’t agree on his view on women, but mostly I find his style and message refreshing.
I feel sorry for Andrew and I’m thankful that he has some Christian people (like MPT) who can encourage him in the faith. Yes, I think MHC has gone way too far in trying to rebuke a “sinner.” And I believe they will be accountable to God for the consequences of how they treat people (like Andrew) and cause others to stumble with their legalism and manipulation.
But, can I be honest? I think it’s (again) refreshing that a church is at least TRYING to have a process of accountability and repentance. I think love should always be the response to sin because Jesus modeled that for us and MHC is definitely not giving off that vibe according to these two documents shared. But sometimes I think in an effort to love and not be judgmental a lot of shy away from confrontation and accountability. MHC is taking it to extremes, yes. However, I don’t know of any other church that has thought out accountability like they have. They probably are motivated by ego and control, but I guess what I’m saying is don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. I don’t think Andrew is wrong for having the response he did, but I don’t necessary think MHC should be demonized because of the way choose to deal with accountability.
No. Abuse of power is NEVER refreshing.
I’m glad to see someone TRYING to keep their dog clean. Yeah, they drowned it, but at least they’re making an effort.
No, no, no. This is not refreshing, this is appalling. This has NOTHING of love in it. And if we are known to those outside of the faith by our love for one another (John 13:35) we are NOT witnesses to the love of God when we behave in this manner.
amen. A church using these tactics are not trying to have accountability–that is the name they hide behind to justify power, control and abuse.
This isn’t accountability and repentance.
This is abuse and ostracizing.
Didn’t Andrew show that he was taking responsibility–being accountable, working through repentance–by his month of meetings? This is not repentance and accountability, but abuse.
He repented when he agreed with God. endless confession of sin is not biblical period. people twist and use scripture in such ways to keep people in bondage. they are so worried that Gods Grace isnt enough to teach a son or daughter of Christ to say no to ungodliness, so they use fear tactics full of judgement and hate to control the flock. He went to confess his sin not to be forgiven but to get it out in the open. the response should of been. You are not condemned child. You are the righteousness of God in Christ. remember this always.. now go and sin no more ( Using Jesus example) Grace is the very thing that abounds over sin. nothing else. and I am grieved heavily by the ploys of this church leadership. as far as treating him like a gentile or tax collector. Let us look to Jesus to see how he treated them so live by example. let us look to the correction of Jesus with Peter after Peter denied him three times. Jesus question is all it took. Peter do you love me more than these? dont we see this question addressed the pride in Peters heart as he thought he loved Jesus more than everyone else( the THESE is the other disciples ) . Jesus showed him where he was wrong believing in Grace and Mercy. This is the chastisement of our Lord. If you dont think that question wasnt a hard pill to swallow for Peter. you are wrong. it was. and Jesus is the one who sought after him 🙂 this is our heavenly Father 🙂
Tia wrote: “endless confession of sin is not biblical period.”
Absolutely. What it is, is torture.
I would agree with that as long as the church keeps them selves in check.
If this error leads to the church realize the holes they have in their discipline so they tighten things up and stop ostracizing the people who leave.
This is an unfortunate case and they are erring on the side of being far to strict and overbearing where most err on the side of not having much discipline in place at all.
http://matthewpaulturner.net/jesus-needs-new-pr/mark-driscolls-gospel-shame-the-truth-about-discipline-excommunication-and-cult-like-control-at-mars-hill/?replytocom=10221#respondAgreed! There is a lot of talk in these comments about the love and grace that should be shown toward a guy like Andrew. I just wish they would show some toward a church and its leadership that is at least attempting to look to scripture as a guide for the restoration of a brother in sin.
“Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.” Hebrews 13:17
My heart breaks for ALL involved, including those who are in a system that requires them to love in a way that goes against everything that we KNOW in our hearts to be loving. When we make ourselves God, we will hurt others and ourselves.
+1
Like Jesus was always so understanding of Religious leaders who treated those they deemed sinful in this manner? There actually is a notable difference in how Jesus treats even those who are “caught in the very act” (not to mention those like Andrew who are openly penitent of their sin) and the way Jesus treats those who would use religious positions of power to belittle and exclude others in the name of God. According to Jesus, not even God will forgive those who resolutely refuse to forgive the sins of others.
Great response Adam. Dead on!
Here, here. Let him who is without sin write the first church discipline contract.
I am happy to love and grace towards anyone who uses the Bible completely as a whole. One verse at a time is misuse at best and blatant abuse at worst.
So you don’t listen to either topical or expository sermons? You like pastors who distantly allude to the whole Bible without citing Scripture?
Ha, that’s a bit of an extreme. The Bible was not written using verses, so no, I don’t listen to verse by verse types of sermons. I listen to sermons that examine entire sections of scripture where natural language breaks occur and the entire context can be considered.
Our church will do a series on an entire book, and remind us of the previous context when for transition. Our church also recognizes that the Bible is a collection of books, and each book has a context that was, in most cases, not intended to be linked to another book. So one verse in Galations was not intended to support one verse John. To do so is to force the Bible into a mode that was not intended.
That’s funny, because MHC goes through entire books of the Bible too, also recognizing that the Bible is a collection of books. The only difference might be recognizing that the Bible is a consistent, redemption narrative that doesn’t contradict itself and can interpret itself from one book to the next. Obviously a different hermeneutic that your’s, and yes, that does place your church in the minority, not MHC.
Sorry Doug….nice try. These people are power hungry, ego maniancs who aren’t concerned at all about the souls of people and only concerned with exercising control over everyone and everything. If these are your “leaders”, then you need to run like Carl Lewis. You missed one big difference. Andrew came in repentance, seeking restoration. These “church” “leaders” come seeking power and control.
The problem isn’t obeying your leaders and submitting. They are in no way given authority to decide when someone has “successfully” repented properly. On the subject of leaders, we as the body of Christ know that they will be judged much more harshly for the what they believe, confess and teach. This is ugly. This is ugly for their church but also for the rest of the Christian community who want to push forth the Kingdom of God. If this is pushing forth the Kingdom, count me out. As a Worship Leader I could never engage something like this and find it helpful. Holding someone to accountability and attempting to play the role of God are completely different.
There are leaders in place to uplift, encourage, strengthen and guide. This attempts to show all of those qualities yet falls so far short.
Andrew, stay true to the word planted in your heart. You seem to understand forgiveness and repentance. Do not let something or someone distract your view of Jesus and the Cross. Praying for all involved.
Obeying and submitting to one’s church leaders might sound like a no-brainer to some, but it’s that very mentality that has led to sexual abuse in the church, abusive leaders projecting their own views onto the Bible (like Mark Driscoll), and various other abuses. Not all leaders are trustworthy, and an informed church body should pay attention to what their leader is saying and doing, and let their God-given intuition and their own biblical studies guide them on whether or not to trust the leader. Submitting blindly, even (especially?) to those who claim to represent God is a dangerous game. And leaders who are humble and honest will not want anyone to submit blindly to them. Leaders who do accept complete obedience are frightening and a huge red flag in my book.
Also, if they (MH elders) are attempting to look at scripture as a guide to how to handle members’ sins, they’re not doing a very thorough job, in my opinion.
Oops–that should be “Leaders who do expect complete obedience…book.”
While I agree that Mar’s Hill has gone a little overboard, I’m not sure that some of this is entirely fair to MHC. There is a disciplinary procedure outlined very clearly in Matthew. Are they being legalistic in interpretation? Maybe. But I see it like this:MHC wants to make sure that this guy is walking in reconciliation with the rest of that body.
He hid his sexual immorality before.
God takes sexual immorality very seriously (almost any of Paul’s epistles).
They need to know that Andrew means business.
Reconciliation is a hard, hard road that requires a brutal honesty. And commitment.
A lot of our current sinful behaviors are based in old hurts that we have not yet given over to Christ.
The contract was overboard, but not completely unwarranted. In a lot of ways, I see this as the broken church dealing with people the best way we (the Church) can. In this particular case, I would suggest every critic here go read 1 Corinthians 5:12-13… There is an established precedent. We do treat believers differently. Imagine you’re a pastor trying to take care of this. Your responsibility is to the flock. And your employer (the Father).
What I’m seeing here is a lot of poo-pooing by armchair quarterbacks.
@Andrew- Dude, I’m sorry man. If you read this, this sucks. I don’t know you, but I can only imagine your hurt. I hope you can heal. I will pray for you. It’s tough sometimes…
@MPT- Thanks for sharing this story. It’s good to see some of the harder things… I may not agree with how you handled this, but I love your compassion.
@anyone who wants to respond… Email me. nmckeever00@gmail.com or Facebook me. I’d love to dialogue on this, but I don’t think thread forums are the appropriate forum. 😉
God bless all of you, looking to hanging in eternity with you.
One thing, Nate…. Yes, in 1 Cor 5, Paul says they should expel the “immoral brother”, but if you notice, that guy was still sleeping with his father’s wife, he hadn’t repented and the church allowed it to continue.
Once they expelled the guy, what happened? Paul had to come back and correct the church again in 2 Cor 2 because, even though he had repented and stopped his sexual sin, they still wouldn’t welcome him back into fellowship. That’s what appears to be going on here at MHC, if you ask me.
The biggest issue to me is that Andrew did repent and stop his behavior but the church wasn’t willing to accept that repentance. Period.
Jesus doesn’t demand any of us to make a list of sins we’ve committed and people we’ve wronged so that he can make us go through the steps of making amends. We repent and he forgives. Period. And he doesn’t post of a list of our wrongs where are all our friends can read about it.
The point of church discipline is to restore. It’s not to be punitive and make one’s sins known to everyone else. When CD reaches the third stage (bring it before the church), at that point, the sin the person is being called out publicly for is the sin of failing to repent. The specific sin they committed that started it all is not even relevant at that point. Andrew’s sin wasn’t even discovered. He himself brought it to the church. At that point, all that should have been done was for a person in leadership (ha ha, are there really even any real leaders at MH?) to counsel him to restoration. But even that wouldn’t have taken long because he was already at the point of repentance. As many others have pointed out here, think of the story of the woman at the well, and how drastically differently she was treated by Jesus, compared to the treatment Andrew got from MH. Lastly, as others have pointed out, it’s widly ironic that in his new book, MD reveals that he and Grace were sexually active prior to being married. To my knowledge, he doesn’t even condemn his own actions in that matter. Combined with his over the top teaching on sex, I’m surprised that there are any single christians at MH who are celibate.
progressive in comparison to the Westboro Baptist Church?
Jenn, this is the behavior of a cult, not a community of Jesus. It is *not* OK.
I am at a loss for words. (non cuss words i mean. If this is true christianity than you can shove it!)
🙂 John: It’s NOT! But a lot of ‘Christians’ don’t know that.
Hmm… They are told to treat Andrew as “tax collector or gentile.” Do they even know who wrote the Gospel of Matthew? Why it was probably Matthew the Tax collector! Did they not notice when reading his Gospel how Jesus treated tax collectors? He ate meals and partied with them! He loved them when everyone else hated them! At Mars Hill they are being commanded to do the exact opposite of what Matthew shows in his Gospel.
I am very glad my brother did not join this church, and I am very sad for Andrew. I hope he will be reconciled with brothers and sisters at the church, and that they will treat him like Jesus treated the tax collectors and gentiles–by celebrating and having fellowship with him.
Haha, I completely missed the line in the article were the author made the same connection. I was repeating an interpretation, that I very much agree with, by one of my seminary professors.
Matt, in Andrews conversations with you, was it clear that he recognised what he did was wrong and that he would seek God’s forgiveness?
Patrick, just a free bit of advice, next time try reading the article.
Patrick,
Did you read both parts of this post? It’s quite clear that Andrew is repentant for what he did, and was seeking God’s forgiveness.
I’ve read them, yep. I’m just not sure it comes across that way very clearly.
Andrew is the one who told a church member in the first place. Why would he do that if he wasn’t looking for forgiveness and restoration?
There could be situations where a person confesses because they believe what they did is wrong, but they ultimately don’t want to seek restoration. Andrew could be having doubts about his faith, etc.
I’m not saying he does, I’m just asking.
I think you asked a good question, but it doesn’t matter. Who is right?! None of us were there,we couldn’t witness his behavior or that of the church people involved. You could get different accounts from all sides. And yet everyone sits here, judging as if they know…I’m sure this guy isn’t lying but I’m also equally sure that I want less and less to go to any church ever if this is what people spend their time doing online… sorry to be so harsh…just depressed…. no one seems to know…..and all off us can be so nasty, first the church leaders and then those who judge them. Where is true grace to be found?!?!
this is why i avoided going online for the last several months 🙁
And the previous comment (by ‘ain’t it a shame’) is a perfect illustration of what happens in the vast majority of abuse cases, whether they occur in the church, the home, school or wherever. No matter how much evidence there is that horrific abuse occurred (and there is certainly enough evidence that Mars Hill Church has been involved in so many similarly cases of abuse of authority that one must reach one of two conclusions: it is either all a grand conspiracy by Satan or a serious recurring problem by this leadership team), there is always someone who stands up to say “you can’t prove it because you weren’t there!” Well, guess what? We have the words of someone who actually WAS there (the victim), AND we have independently verified documents presented by the other party (church leadership) who was there. So, as much as something can be proven to anyone, this is as rock solid a chain of evidence as you are ever going to find.
And when faced with this evidence of spiritual malpractice and abuse by a large and powerful organization, you are saying we should all be quiet in order to show “true grace:”? No. Grace and forgiveness are for individuals, like Andrew, who have admitted wrongdoing. Not publicizing this is leaving the bear trap open for some other unsuspecting person to step into. Is that what you are advocating–that in order to show forgiveness, victims should not publicly confront their abusers, and abusive people should therefore be left in power? Or that if and when victims do publicly confront authority figures who have abused them, the rest of us should sit around and say to them, “‘well, sorry, but we really shouldn’t do anything about this because we weren’t there and that would be judgmental of us.”
If the unpleasantness of reading people’s expressions of righteous anger is the reason you’ve avoided going online, then feel free to withdraw into whatever protective bubble you need in order to feel comfortable, content, and conflict-free. The real world of wolves in shepherds’ clothing is still out there, regardless of your acknowledgment of it.
Agreed.
Patrick,
I disagree with you. Yep, it seems very clear to me. And it seems clear to me that you didn’t want to read clearly.
nothing is clear. we all think we know more than we do. and everyone always thinks they are right about whatever they think. I’m sorry, my comment is less about this guys situation and more about my personal confusion. My heart does go out to the this guy and the pain and rejection he experienced.
I gathered from the first post that he knew he was wrong the moment after he cheated on his fiance and then was seeking forgiveness through the month of meetings. If I’m not looking for forgiveness for something I’ve done wrong I’m not sitting through a month of hoop jumping, dehumanizing meetings.
He actually says a few times (in the first installment) that he knew what he did was wrong. And that he went to the church for help to repent.
i cant help but wonder if the woman involved in this sexual sin was also given a contract, or was she spared because her father is an elder?
there are no words to adequately express how my heart hurts for andrew and all the others that have been subjected to this kind of treatment.
to say mark driscoll upsets me is an understatement. but i am no longer surprised by this rants, rages and his abusive use of power. but what still surprises me are the men and women in church leadership and with large congregations and ministries that still support him.
i am curious what it will take for leaders in the restless and reformed crowd to stand up and say something…
Elle, GREAT question. But since her father is an Elder an all, that means they are part of the chosen, elite crowd, and thus they can do no wrong.
According the the first post, the woman is a “weaker vessel” and the man leads her to sin so she isn’t responsible.
Wouldn’t it be more scriptural (as per John 8) to drag the woman out and subject her to ridicule and let the guy slink off scott free? Just saying. 😉
I HATE it when this comes up as an “excuse”. *rolls eyes*
I didn’t think about this before, but it makes me wonder if BECAUSE Dad’s an elder they are being particularly harsh with Andrew on this.
@Elle: I am curious what it will take for leaders in the restless and reformed crowd to stand up and say something…
This seems to be a question that is on many minds. Really, until he is held accountable by whoever is in authority over him, these articles, sad as they are, will only get repeated. Does someone get a “get out of jail free card” if there doctrine is deemed “pure” enough ? Is church practice something that is entirely left at the local level, something only for Mark’s elders to deal with ? Does Mark have an “upline” ??
As someone who say this story happen first hand, I can tell you the girl did not get a contract. She’s playing the victim since women are “weaker vessels”. She also came out with some dirty lies after the whole ordeal so she’s just playing the victim. As if she had no decision in the matter and did not make the choices for herself.
So, what do we do with this? Who of us can really just read this and put it down? What’s the next step? Andrew, hang in there dude. We love you. You are valuable and you are forgiven. Seriously though, what’s the next step? How do we respond to this?
I’ve been asking myself that very question for months….wide open to suggestions, in the meantime- I post this EVERYWHERE there is talk of abuse
http://onemothersjourney7.blogspot.com/
Tell the stories….
Mine will be shared tomorrow at the wartburg watch.
Marshillrefuge.blogspot.com
This is a punch in the gut.
I am wondering if this is the standard proceeder for the church.
I agree that it is horrible.
But it sounds like most of it was caused by the pastor X and not necessarily by Mark.
I just don’t want to jump to conclusions and make accusations about the church (though they are responsible for cleaning up such a mess) When you entrust a pastor with the area of discipline, you are expecting them to do what is right and many things go unquestioned.
I would be interested in hearing another Mars Hill pastor or Elders thoughts on this with Andrews full side of the story.
Mike, with all due respect man, you must be new to following the antics of MD. Nothing, and I repeat, nothing happens in that place that he doesn’t endorse. The environment is tightly controlled to make sure that happens. Pretty scary stuff.
Mostly it’s just hard for me to believe that a Church such as that would be so far off the mark.
Do they know how long the notice was up and if it was supported by the whole of church leadership?
I am deeply saddened by this. I have said a prayer for Andrew that he might find some peace, find restoration and know that God loves him. He is someone who repented, saw that he had hurt his fiance and hurt himself. Restoring hope, love and faith is not about abusing the “sinner” but finding ways for him or her to “work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.” I have worked with engaged couples in situations similar to this. There is no guarantee about their relationship following an incident like this, but sometimes they come back stronger and more committed. I may have missed what happened to his relationship with his finance, but certainly the church can not have helped with healing and hope. My word to Andrew….”nothing in all creation can separate you from the love of God in Christ Jesus”….NOTHING, no pastor or church or situation has the power. May you experience anew God’s amazing love for you as his beloved child.
Apparently, they forgot to read the first verse in that passage, “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over.” (Matthew 18:15, NIV). Reading this story, I’m pretty sure he did a lot of listening. He was repentant. He was the one who pointed it out, not someone at Mars Hill. *He* acknowledged it. I guess *I* missed the part about the lengthy process even after the listening and acknowledgment of the sin.
It must have been in Mark’s Commentary on the New Testament.
Yup… this situation moved very quickly from reconciliation to vengeance seeking. There was no need to move beyond “Step one.” Someone decided that their own hurts had not been adequately dealt with in Andrew’s original repentance and decided that drag things out into unending abusive hoops.
I’m angry.
SPIRITUAL ABUSE.
My knee jerk reaction.. if I were a member of this church and received this ‘letter’ would be not to move to pray for him, but instead find every way possible to hide the things I am dealing with.. .with this reaction I find it hard to believe that people feel the freedom to be open with who they are. If with one simple decision all of your ‘dirty laundry’ will be thrown to the ‘wolves’ so to speak to remove you from the pack.
It hurts to read it, because it does not seem like discipline, but more of neglect.. It reminds me of when Paul encouraged the church to turn back to a brother they had been mistreating because of his sin (though on word from Paul himself.. though maybe not the extent he expecting.. I am not certain) (2 Cor 2:5-11 ref)
Huh. Sounds like a shunning. I never knew Mars HIll was an Amish church.
Matthew,
This was an incredible article. One of the most moving, disturbing things I’ve read on the web in a long time. Thank you.
You mentioned in Part Two of the article that Mars Hill’s disciplinary course of action was reminiscent of the Roman Catholic church in the Dark Ages. You’re right. I was struck by its similarities to a modern religious sect, mainly because I happen to be reading about it right now.
I am currently reading Dr. Manning Marable’s stunning biography, “Malcolm X: A Life of Reinvention.” When I read your article, I was struck by the resonant similarities between Mars Hills’s church disciplinary methods and the disciplinary tactics of the Nation of Islam (NOI) in the late 1950s and early 1960s. Granted, the NOI sometimes resorted to beating and even killing wayward former members. But there are some similarities, if not in degree then in kind:
1. Power and authority flows from a charismatic leader at the top: Mark Driscoll at Mars Hill and, fifty years ago, from Elijah Muhammad at the NOI.
2. Members are expected, even required, to follow strict moral codes.
3. Moral infractions lead to severe, often public, consequences. Members who refuse (for whatever reason) to submit themselves to strict disciplinary methods are removed or excommunicated from the body. Members in good standing are warned not to associate with wayward members.
4. Discipline is handed down from the top levels of power, through the use of trusted “lieutenants.”
I don’t know enough about Islam to make the case that the NOI’s process of discipline and reconciliation was a distortion of the Koran and orthodox Islam. I will say, unequivocally, that that is absolutely the case at Mars Hill, as Alice pointed out up above.
Thanks again, Matthew.
One other connection is that Matthew refers to one of the pastors as Pastor X.
I am literally in tears over the letter received by Andrew. This is NOT Jesus, this is NOT right….this is clearly ABUSE, clearly church GOSSIP in its worst form.
Andrew, thank you for coming forward. I pray God has plans for you, pray He has a plan for the destruction of my family, pray He has a plan for each one of us sickened by “the church”, abused by “the church”…may our cries be heard!
http://onemothersjourney7.blogspot.com/
Thank you for posting this. It is important to raise this sort of activity to awareness. I wonder how this church would deal with addiction? Of any kind. What of sin caused from mental illness? Is it all just the devil and all it needs is sorrowful submission to leadership to drive it out? People who feel accused don’t need shame, they need though love. They need to learn how to take responsibility and then make amends. This has to be their choice and the church can nurture that choice. But if church is there to witness God’s healing grace to the sinner, then something is missing here. They want automatons not people who admit they are sick. We all fall and all stumble. But shaming people into health is not the solution. Inviting people into a life of prayerful healing works.
“For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.” Matthew 7:2
People with addictions are ushered into redemption groups…there is a book these groups follow called Redemption by Mike Wilkerson. Basically you are an idolater and have a “worship disorder”.
Actually people dealing with any sort of issue needing healing (sexual abuse, adultery, infertility, etc) are diverted from standard community groups for a time to go through the redemption group process, and then at some point return to community group.
Which strikes me as a little bit odd, considering that we ALL have issues to work through, and isn’t that part of the point of having trusted, intimate Christian friends to whom we can take such things?? I understand that there are sometimes cases where specific kinds of groups are good – AA and things like that for example – but shouldn’t that be an aside? We still need to be among the “regular” folk, so that we can know how to relate to them, and they can know how to relate to people in our situation.
Worship disorder? Wow.
*sings* “Zacchaeus was a wee little man and a wee little man was he…” Treat him like a tax collector BUT not have dinner with him? Jesus knew Zacchaeus by name and called him out of the tree TO have dinner with him. Not only did Jesus dine at this sinner’s house, He didn’t wait for him to call and invite Him over; He invited Himself!!! If we were to treat all unbelievers like this, there would be no believers! I guess they need to reevaluate their children’s programs if this is how it’s going to be! Better omit this song!
With regards to the part of the letter where it states that he had false intentions regarding his former fiancee. Is this supposed to mean that he asked her to marry him because they were fooling around? Or that he never actually intended to marry her? If that is the implication being made and it is false, then that is a really good case for libel is it not?
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This is the bombshell we were waiting for? How else should we read 2 Thess. 3:14-15; Gal. 6:1-2; 1 Cor. 5:9-13; 2 Cor. 6:14-17; and Titus 3:10, or are those Scriptures just not relevant anymore?
In love and in with grace. With forgiveness and restoration. In a manner that treats both the Gospel and the Way of Jesus as if they mean something, instead of being just one more means of power and control. In a way that gets the church accused of the same things Jesus was often accused of, rather than seeming to side with those who accused him of being a drunk and a glutton…a friend of sinners.
Were these sinners (tax collectors and Gentiles) converts under church authority? Apples and oranges. No, “let him be to you as sa Gentile and sa tax collector” does not mean to not love the person and to not desire their restoration. What it does mean is to treat them as if they are no longer in fellowship. Jesus is clear on that. Does Jesus ever say there are no consequences of sin and that the church is without authority? Is that was “friend of sinners” means to you?
And how do you know that to MHC leadership, this is “just one more means of power and control?” Do you really claim to know their hearts? Now who’s the judgmental one?
Apparantly you are.
By the way, you do realize that Jesus words in Matthew 18 were spoken before there was really any established church, right?
Wait, so the apostolic church and all the epistles describing church governance are in conflict with Jesus?
Ummm…I don’t believe that’s what I said. However, I do believe that Jesus is the interpretive lens for the epistles and not the other way around.
Agreed, but you seem to be claiming that that Paul doesn’t properly weigh in on matters pertaining to church governance and that we are to only read Matthew 18.
Robert, back to the topic. Nobody here is against church discipline. But in this case, MH abused the man, and did not follow the Biblical process of church discipline. Pretty easy to see that. Reading is a skill.
Yea, there’s no disagreement here at all about what church discipline is. That is easy to see.
No, I think Paul assumes the teaching of Jesus should shape any reading of his teaching. I like Paul though, and I’d certainly include him…especially in 2 Cor. 2, which directly follows up on the 1 Cor. passage that some eagerly cite:
“7 Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8 I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him. 9 Another reason I wrote you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything. 10 Anyone you forgive, I also forgive. And what I have forgiven—if there was anything to forgive—I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, 11 in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes.”
So, what is the difference between Driscoll’s Mars Hill and a cult?
In cults….
1.People are put in physical or emotionally distressing situations;
>>> seems like Mars Hill does this.
2.Their problems are reduced to one simple explanation, which is repeatedly emphasized;
>>> Does Mars Hill do this?
3.They receive what seems to be unconditional love, acceptance, and attention from a charismatic leader or group;
>>> Mars Hill has a charismatic leader; there appears to be love & acceptance…
4.They get a new identity based on the group;
>>> Definitely the case at Mars Hill
5.They are subject to entrapment (isolation from friends, relatives and the mainstream culture) and their access to information is severely controlled
>>> Definitely the case at Mars Hill
I saw a documentary on Jim Jones’ People’s Temple cult and the Jonestown massacre, and Andrew’s story is astonishingly reminiscent to how Jones’ church was in the beginning… a similar sort of love and support and inclusiveness, that devolved over time into abuse and spiritual manipulation.
A church that is formed around (and exists because of) one charismatic speaker and teacher is a dangerous thing. Realizing that is one of the things that drew me to the church I now attend (after growing up at a mega church) – in a healthy church, the Body continues and grows and loves one another, regardless of who is in the pulpit.
#2 yes yes and yes….they use idolatry as the cause of all your problems…my husband was told his smoking cigarettes was idolatry and that he needed to repent, to which my husband replied that no, he needed prayer.
Honestly Matthew… this is a very poor interpretation of the Scripture. If we are to treat them as Gentiles/tax collectors(non-believer), then we are to earnestly seek fellowship with them just as Jesus did. He never calls us to out right reject or banish or shame a “Gentile or tax collector”. One of his Disciples was a tax collector. Hmm… I wonder which one. Oh yeah, Matthew!!!
Shameful and sickening.
Andrew, thanks for being will to share your story with Matthew (and with us). It’s so sad.
I pray that you find love and community and healing and all the help you need.
If you can get this message to Andrew personally, I think he needs to hear it.
Andrew, life sucks right now but you did the best thing and got out of a very bad situation. No one has the authority to tell you that you are forgiven except God. You know that. Don’t play their games. You need to show these people that you are forgiven and you are free. Don’t act like they expect you to act in that letter. If they ask you “How are things?” Respond, “Things are GREAT! I’ve never been better. Let me tell you all the wonderful things the Lord has done for me today.” Trust me, this will confuse them because they won’t expect someone who is “under church discipline” to have actually gotten on with their lives like you are doing. You need to show them that it is not only possible, but people can be happy and thrive too. MH is trying to ruin your life even though you’ve left. Don’t let them.
If people want to talk about you being under church discipline, honesty tell them about all the meetings and contracts you have undergone. Be frank and upfront but not bitter. Quantify it. Say something like, “I’ve been to 10 meetings over the course of a month for a total of 30 hours with church elders and was asked to sign a contract that would have restricted my activities to basically going from home to work and to more counseling sessions at the church. I confessed my sin in each of those meetings so I didn’t see a point to continue to do so when the gospels clearly says that if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and free us from all unrighteousness. I was also unwilling to ‘submit to more discipline’ when I had clearly repented and when the elders gave me no indication what I could do to actually convince them that I was actually repentant. I could have been ‘under discipline for years and that’s just not right nor Biblical.” Then smile, turn and walk away. Don’t give them a chance to start an argument with you because you know you can’t convince them but at least you will have been heard and you won’t have given them what they expected to hear and it might plant a seed of doubt about the church in their minds as well.
Things will get better. You’ll find out who your true friends are and maybe you’ll help some other people see the light as to what is happening at MH as well. Hold your help up high and keep moving forward.
Deb, Fantastic advice!
Fantastic counsel, Deb!!
Andrew, I know many who have gone through similar things in this new brand of celebrity following Christianity. Nothing is worse than evil done in the Name of Christ. It can take years to process it mainly because you do have to wonder WHY you were attracted to such a place or why you did not pick up on red flags earlier. Go through that process because so many people go right back into another controlling authoritarian situation. Never forget, this is about their need for power and authority. It is a sickness and is infesting Christianity at a rapid rate.
Stay away from celebrity shock jock preachers. It is a business and cultish. They make merchandise of the Gospel.
And remember this: Jesus promised us He was sending the BEST TEACHER: The Holy Spirit. Do not allow any more humans to become the Holy Spirit for you. Which is exactly the system MH has set up for people.
I didn’t read all the comments, but my heart breaks for Andrew. I also feel horrible for his ex-fiancee- now everyone in the church knows she’s a sinner as well. But then again she is the weaker vessel, so I guess she’ll get a “get-out -of jail” pass.
Sad times.
“Treat him as an unbeliever?”…So the MH folks don’t spend time with unbelievers? They don’t share meals with unbelievers? If so, it seems the only relationships they would foster and the fellowship within MH can, and is, only from church swapping. It also makes you question all of those Mark tweets about how many newly-saved and baptized-folks are coming to MH.
MH, you can’t have it both ways…either you want relationships and discipleship to occur with unbelievers, or you don’t associate with them. You must choose. But alas, I forgot…’God hates you!’ (and by you, I mean me)
Peace,
Ross
Wow. This isn’t about church discipline. It’s about power.
Church discipline, to the extent it’s taught in the Bible, is about how to handle someone who’s actively engaged in something that threatens the wellbeing of the entire community, who refuses to stop, and who won’t even acknowledge there’s a problem. None of that even remotely applies here. Andrew knew he messed up, admitted it (not only to the one person directly affected but to many others as well!), and took steps (jumped through insane hoops, actually) to stop it from happening again. What else did they want him to do to prove he was sorry? Castrate himself?
“Cult-like” is exactly right. Maybe Mark should go and read Matthew 18:6. Or Matthew 23:4.
“Church discipline, to the extent it’s taught in the Bible, is about how to handle someone who’s actively engaged in something that threatens the wellbeing of the entire community, who refuses to stop, and who won’t even acknowledge there’s a problem. ”
That sounds to me like church discipline is meant to deal with people like Pastor X and Mark Driscoll.
The church I’m part of practices discipline, and recently two members came under discipline for sexual sins (not with each other) that they do not wish to cease. Members were asked not to speak or associate with them, though there are designated individuals the two are encouraged to contact should they opt for repentance and restoration. We have a few restorations of members every year. The intent of this type of exclusion is restorative, not punitive.
If Andrew’s version of events is correct, it would appear that Mars Hill takes a punitive approach.
So if these people left your church, would you still encourage people to avoid them?
I genuinely don’t understand the difference between what you’re explaining here & what Mars Hill is doing. I’m quite certain that those in leadership at MH would say that their exclusion is restorative as well.
When Proverbs tells us that iron sharpens iron and so friends sharpen friends, I think disassociating with people takes away that possibility.Overall throughout scripture, I find the work of God is about bringing people back into community and fellowship. In that community and fellowship is healing.
We quote the one example in Corinthians about Paul who has someone disassociated. But forget about the Scripture which talks about treating one like the Gentiles or tax collectors. Or the Scripture which says mercy leads to forgiveness.
That’s still abusive. Those two members are being shunned and deprived of friendship for following their own consciences. I hope you get out of that church.
I know a church that exercised discipline in the way I consider a correct application of scripture. In this case the perpetrator was continuing in lies and theft of large investments church members had made with him. If you have ever read “Snakes in Suits,” this is the type of person that book talks about. At first, only a couple people were aware of the deceit, and called him on it, but he denied everything and carried on. The confrontations escalated as prescribed in scripture, with the final event being a meeting of the whole church was attending in order to hear all sides of the story and then “excommunicate” him if appropriate (in terms of community, not communion). In this case, the man NEVER admitted to actual guilt for any sins, let alone repent — he had an excuse for every lie, usually that it was a misunderstanding on the part of the swindle-ee.
Scripture lays out the escalation on confrontation and discipline (confront privately in truth and love, then bring in others, etc.) in order to protect both sides. In the situation I described above, it is for the church members’ own protection, spiritually and emotionally in addition to financially, that they disassociated themselves from this bad seed. The way I read the scripture, if it is followed by pure-hearted Christ-followers and not power-seeking people like in Andrew’s situation, the Biblical process is meant to help persuade the “sinner” that their conduct is disobedient TO GOD (not to the discipliners), and a repentant person will be welcomed back and supported and helped in their area of weakness.
I personally have been an accountability partner to two women who committed sexual sin — one outside of marriage, the other within her marriage and that instigated a divorce. These accountability relationships were set up by ministry leaders in order to provide support to these women in their area of sin. Weekly we would talk about how things were going for them in the areas of sexual temptation and building healthy relationships. This is what I would like to have seen in Andrew’s situation — not “meetings” with people on some power hierarchy with the purpose of strong-arming him into submission, but relationship building with a heartfelt aim of restoration.
I think what we Christians are sensing in the MH situation is a deceitful insincerity on the part of the church leadership. They say the “discipline contract” is for the sake of love and restoration, but their actions — “outing” him to the whole congregation in language that is in itself deceitful about where Andrew’s heart was at — feels gossipy, slanderous, and not serving any helpful purpose in the light of the fact he WAS repentant and had already voiced his own intent to break ties with the community.
My heart aches for Andrew. My husband and I have been in a similar place. We confessed our sexual sin to one of the elders of our church – the first meeting went (relatively) well – we left feeling encouraged and no longer suicidal. The subsequent meetings, however…it was decided that we weren’t really repentant (I guess because we were no longer suicidal and had seen a modicum of hope?). And our fundamentalist college somehow found out…and treated us quite similarly to this letter the church wrote the congregation. We were not allowed to step foot on campus or keep in contact with any student for at least a year. If we ever want to return, there is a litany of things we’d have to do to “prove our sincerity and repentance.” It’s abuse, pure and simple. Abuse.
So let me get this straight.
Andrew gets engaged to a woman he clearly loves. It later comes out that they were doing something “physical,” but it’s not clear if it’s sex or just making out.
Andrew, in a moment that he acknowledges was a mistake, fools around with another woman, but doesn’t actually have sex with this woman. He admits it was sinful and hurtful to his fiancee, wants to repent of that, and wants to repair his relationship with his fiancee.
And somehow, this results in a public excommunication?
Honestly, for a church that claims to take the bible literally, they should spend some time with the letters to the Corinthians. That church was messed up in terms of sexual morality, but Paul only recommended excommunication once (and then, it wasn’t final. It’s clear he envisioned the man and woman eventually repenting and returning to fellowship).
In addition to the insightful comments already given, it seems to me that the punishment here doesn’t fit the “crime” at all.
If the church is going to spend its time issuing discipline contracts to every couple that makes out before marriage, I would wager that the church is going to spend the overwhelming majority of its time issuing disciplinary contracts, no?
Sure seems that it would be huh? Maybe that’s part of the reason why people stay…fear of THIS happening to them.
After reading this story in horror, I now can’t help but wonder what my own church’s disciplinary procedures, if they exist, are.
How many Mars Hill members are sleeping with their girlfriends? My guess would be A LOT.
So, now they’re being mean to him AND being hypocrites.
This is part of the reason I don’t go to church anymore.
LRA, I totally agree with your first two lines. Driscoll “preaches” on sex all the time, then can’t figure out why all the people (single folks) in his “church” are sleeping around.
I feel sad about your third line. Real churches don’t function like this.
Don’t feel sad. Freeing myself from religion was one of the best things I ever did for myself. As an agnostic atheist, I am better able to judge what I should be doing for myself from day to day. Religion never gave me the answers I needed… in fact, “God” never answered any of my prayers. Instead of feeling helplessly ignored, I now understand that there is no god to answer my prayers. So I look to solve my own problems as best I can, guilt-free for the most part.
Do any of you realize that your attempt to push your views on the leadership of Mars Hill Church, aschurch you’re not affiliated with at all, is its own form of piety and self-righteousness?
It’s one thing to say that you’ll never go to MHC or buy a Driscoll book and that you’ll tell everyone you know to do the same.
It’s another to sit around and pontificate about what MHC should do and what theology they should hold.
Who are you to determine that?
Pot meet kettle. Driscoll wrote the book on self-righteousness and on telling everyone else what to do.
Derp.
?
Derp is a meme on the internet, usually used in reply to something that fails basic logic.
By your logic above, no one should ever critique anything or anyone. That’s absurdity. Mark Driscoll is a public figure who makes public comments and writes books for public consumption. As such, his words and actions are worthy of critique. It is not self-righteous to do so. To not do so would be naive and foolish.
Furthermore, the two posts about this topics aren’t even really critiques. It’s simply sharing a story from a given perspective.
So again in response to your initial comment, Derp, because it is completely irrational and illogical.
For starters, I was critiquing the comments, not the original posts.
Again, it seems that people are trying to influence or weigh in on how church governance should occur at MHC. That’s not a nationwide public matter. Is that in fact what you’re trying to do? If not, you misunderstood what I’m taking issue with.
That’s not a nationwide public matter.
Factually incorrect. Mars Hill made it public by posting it online.
As my techie friend in Law enforcement says, don’t post ANYTHING anywhere online that you wouldn’t want to see on the front page of tomorrow’s newspaper. MH made this public by posting it online, even if they consider it some sort of insiders’ site. Making it public invites public comment.
“Andrew will write out in detail his sexual and emotional attachment history withwomen and share it with XXX.”
“Andrew will write out in detail the chronology of events and sexual/emotional sinwith K and share it with XXX and Pastor X”
I’ll repeat myself also Robert. This is crazy and abusive. This pastor is a pervert and Andrew is lucky that he never gave this nutjob anymore ammunition for his quest to control him and everyone around him. What a terrible place. That poor congregation is in bondage.
You are right. That pastor sounds like he is lecherously getting off on the details.
BINGO! Why would a pastor need to have a LIST of his church member’s sexual sins? Sounds like a whole lot of mental porn to me.
Driscoll is probably furiously masturbating over the details all the while preaching that masturbation is the same as being gay
So we can never disagree with another Christian or another theology? In the name of love, we should just stay quiet when someone is treated in such an unchristian manner in the name of Christ?
I can’t speak for anyone else. But I am a broken child of God who has found hope and forgiveness in Christ. I am offended when, in the name of Scripture and Christ, Christians separate people from experience the grace and forgiveness of God. I do not think myself perfect. There are times I err on the side of grace. There are times I judge. But discussing what is different between my theology and Mars HIll’s helps me to define my theology. I would also hope for those who are hurt by places like Mars Hill, they would see one can believe in Jesus and not be like Mars Hill.
But I guess, that makes you uncomfortable and sets myself up as a pious, self righteous fool.
Like I said, it’s one thing to shout from the rooftops that no one should listen to any teaching from MHC. It’s another to try to define what the leadership of that church should and should not do. Are you in fact judging the leadership of a faith community that you’re not involved with at all and hoping that they see things your way?
No, I am not expecting them to change their views because of what I say. First of all, because Mark Driscoll has no use for a female’s view of theology and I am discredited simply on my gender.But I do think discussing it in this forum, is not a bad thing. No one is telling someone not to go to Mars Hill or listen to Driscoll. I’ve never heard anyone say no one should listen to him. Just because we point out where there are places we disagree with Driscoll doesn’t mean we want people to stop going there. They are simply saying why they feel this is a horrendous thing that happened to Andrew. And we would expect a church who preaches grace to be, I don’t know, a little more gracious.
I am not understanding why its ok for Driscoll to call people names, put down people who do not believe like he does but anyone who disagrees with Driscoll needs to stop being so pious.
I will! Don’t listen to Mark Driscoll.
oh then I guess apostle Paul should have NEVER rebuked Peter so openly for his legalism. 😛
Yes, I’m judging them. They are clearly not lead by the same Holy Spirit that seems to be leading many others. If they want to be a in seat of authority, they can be judged in that same seat.
Theologically, we will differ, I’m sure of it. Taking scriptures and using them 1 by 1 is not healthy. You can use other scriptures to back it up, but like many have pointed out, there are two distinct set of scriptures in the 2 writings to the Corinthians and both share and show opposite ideas. Don’t spit out ideas of “You are no different because you are judging them.” They sit in a seat that opens themselves up for it. If you line up with this truly, then great, I would suggest a more in depth read of the scriptures and definite prayer for revelation, but i would also ask that in your prayers you would include me. I would love to know more about the deep meanings and thoughts of God. However, the Holy Spirit is the guiding light that we walk with now. He is the part of the Trinity that reveals the scriptures meanings. Reading scripture and using it takes a lot of guidance by the Holy Spirit. Merely reading and using isn’t suggested. There is a lot in there remember that is pretty rough.
So if he should be excommunicated, some one better grab the guy that just looked a porn and cut his eye out. Or the hand of the thief better be cut off. Just because there can be a literal application of scripture doesn’t mean that there should be one.
I’m fine discussing my feelings with the leadership of a faith community and hoping they see something different. What they have done is not Jesus, it’s not light, it’s not love.
You aren’t making sense, because you aren’t backing up your assertions.
For what reasons – logical, biblical, theological, historical – is it inappropriate for us to question MH’s leadership?
You asserting that we shouldn’t is simply an assertion, not an argument, and it’s certainly not persuasive.
dude. they are not saying what kind of curtains to buy or when to hold sunday brunch or if the music should come before or after the sermon. this dude outed two people on a very private and personal issue. that is cruel and it is more than reasonable to express outrage at such abuse of power and the damage that is done.
Having been involved in ministry for almost thirty years, and having been the one attacked by “good Christians” I can only say that this is so very sad. It makes me weep for Andrew, it makes me weep for a church (many churches actually) that do not understand grace.
All I want to say to Andrew is that I am sorry for what the church, in the name of Jesus, has done to you. I am sorry how you are being treated as an infidel when in fact, you were one that came to the church first, to seek healing. I am sorry for all the pasin you have to endure at theh hands of those that forget that every day they too sin and are in “need” of discipline but God extends grace to them as they too “hide” their sins and weaknesses.
My heart is grieved and broken over this, truly I feel sick to my stomach to think that they can treat Andrew this way. It makes me want to run screaming from “church”. Andrew I am truly sorry.
Wow… I’m totally pissed. M.D. should be forced to apologize and explain this in the presence of another pastor (one who knows what grace and forgiveness are all about). I’ve completely changed my opinion of Mark Driscoll. Mark, brother, you need some help. Your “church” will not stand if you continue down this twisted road…
The issue seems to boil down to the question,
1. Was Andrew repentant? He cites his confession and request for help as signs that he sought restoration.
2. Was the church leadership too harsh?
I don’t think I would feel like grace were shown to me if I were in Andrew’s position. But I must also give the leadership the benefit of the doubt that they were trying to follow scripture here. It is easy to get out of balance. If the leadership is being led by the Holy Spirit, eventually they will self-correct.
I recently faced a similar dilemma with a guy in church who refused to give up a secret gambling habit. He was married, but left his wife, choosing his sin over his marriage. I interpreted the scriptures that are cited in this open letter as instruction to have nothing to do with “the immoral brother.”
One day at a public gathering at the park, a group of us saw him and found it awkward to avoid him. We were torn as to what we should do. I, as a pastor, felt I should keep my distance. My friend, however, went over and talked to him, letting him know that God still loves him and wants to restore him.
I regret not having spoken with him. I regret not approaching him after revisiting Galatians 6:1: “Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.”
I think how we treat the brother in sin depends on whether they desire to be restored. I regret not knowing for myself whether this particular brother in sin was at all tenderhearted. My friend told me he was touched and blown away that a member of the church would go out of his way to talk to him.
Discipline and gentleness are called for, but discernment is needed as to which is more appropriate for the situation. I am not saying I know the answer to this particular case, though.
He was excommunicated for making out.
Yet again, someone is completely missing the point.
You said this man from your church had a gambling habit that he refused to give up and chose his sin over his marriage.
Andrew did the exact opposite. He admitted what he did and asked for forgiveness. Your guy has done neither of these things, so your argument taking up for MHC is quite flimsy.
Compulsive gambling is a mental illness. You shunned someone for being sick. Your church doesn’t get a gold star for not ignoring him when you were confronted with his presence. Your church was spiritually abusive to this man, who is obviously ill and in need of appropriate mental health care.
This.
Agreed. If someone is addicted to gambling, then get him some help. REAL help. A therapist. And a secular one, not useless god-talk. Shunning such people and blasting them with Bible verses accomplishes absolutely nothing. On the contrary. It makes everything worse for them.
Or, for a problem of this severity, rehab, along with continuing therapy afterwards. A secular rehab centre that focuses on evidence-based treatment methods would be ideal. Helping to pay for the man to go to a rehab centre like that would have been a wonderful service for the church to perform for the family.
I find myself, like some others, shaking with rage at this.
At one point, I might have even agreed with the heart of what (I think) Mars Hill is trying to do here. Repentance and accountability? Good things. Underrated things.
But there is no love here. This is all about power, control, and even pretty revenge. There is no god here. Only men whos’ actions look less like disciples of the christ and more like leaders of the Afghanistan Taliban.
And the worst part about it? This letter refers to a ‘pattern of unrepentant sexual sin’. From reading the first part of this entry, it’s quite clear this is not the case. The writer of this letter is, at best, guilty of distorting the facts (perhaps with the best of intentions), and at worst, deliberately misleading the recipients. Either way, this, in the non-Christian world, is called ‘lying’ and ‘slander’. Apparently neither of which are sins when it comes to repentance at MH.
I, too, eagerly look forward to reading the MH contracts for people caught in other sins. You know, things like deception, intolerance, pride, arrogance, gluttony, thievery, usury, covetousness, disrepectfulness…
I live in Seattle and would LOVE to take Andrew to my church: EastLake. Our pastor, Ryan, continually preaches about how glad he is to have ex porn stars, drug addicts, prostitutes, ect as part of our congregation. It’s a community of admittedly broken people who are all trying to do better, encouraging one another instead of bashing each other down. I believe you have my email address. I’m serious. If Andrew is up for a Sunday at “Church for the rest of us” I’ll gladly take him and show him around.
“ex-“????? Have to clean up first? How about a church of porn stars and addicts?
No, not “ex”. Anyone is welcome. Practicing porn stars, alcoholics, drug addicts, selfish, prideful and lazy people are all welcome. And it’s encouraged to be honest about where you’re at. The whole point is for it to be a hospital for sinners. Eastlake has truly stuck to this value. It’s not that they don’t want transformation – it’s just that they know the church staff can’t change someone’s heart, only God can. The amount of love that is shown there is pretty overwhelming… it’s full of grace and mercy, and God is certainly working in people’s hearts there.
Right, but they’re not allowed to STAY porn stars or whatever, are they? Is your church really okay with them just being who they are, or does it tell them they’re broken whether they feel that way or not and try to change them?
They are absolutely allowed to stay as whoever they were when they came through the door. The leadership team at the church has no intention of changing people themselves. They want to leave the transformation to God, and to show God by showing love and mercy. They create an environment that’s honest – and when people are being honest, they realize that the sin of a pastor and the sin of a prostitute is the same in God’s eyes and that we’re all broken people that need grace and mercy. If you disagree with pastor Ryan’s messages, lifestyle, morals, theology… he still invites you back. Likewise, if the church leadership doesn’t agree with your lifestyle, morals, theology…you’re still invited back.
Good!
And we wonder why non-Christians aren’t beating down the doors of the church to come in. Simply shameful.
No one would stand for treatment like this in any other aspect of their lives. Andrew’s “sin issue” is between him and his God. If a discipline contract is necessary for a person to become reformed, shouldn’t every member be on one? Aren’t we all sinning all the time? Why would anyone tolerate this kind of treatment from their spiritual leaders? Oh yeah. Authority worship is a powerful idol. Shame on those in authority who abuse it.
Actually, whatever he did was between him and his fiancee first and foremost. Everything else is secondary
It’s a “Gospel shame” that people are still listening to Driscoll.
Accountability is good but this has gone too far. Sorry this has happened and will be praying for this brother in Christ. I hope he finds loving community to worship with and that will help him heal from this abuse.
This is heartbreaking. I cannot help but wonder if the same course of action was taken in every instance of sexual sin in the congregation. I find it hard to believe that a letter such as this would be sent out every time someone sinned “enough” to determine church discipline. And if that’s not the case, it saddens me that someone who truly feels he was on the path to restoration and repentance would have been made an example of in such a damaging way.
This story is literally heartbreaking. As a college student, and former member of a very-involved college campus ministry, so many of my friends subscribe to this Driscoll/Draconian belief in control over others, and the harsh treatment of “sinners.”
Reading this post has brought back so many feelings of being treated wrongly for my sexuality by members of my supposedly-Christian community, and my heart goes out to Andrew so much.
My heart goes way out to Andrew. I want him to be cared for well in this. I’m in Seattle and know a lot of people who have come out of Mars Hill with wounds and have found communities that facilitated a lot of healing so my husband and I are here for any spiritual refugees if they want to hide and rest.
Stephy,
Would any of them be willing to share their stories? Marshillrefuge.blogspot.com
My story will post tomorrow at the wartburg watch
I try to stay out of the discussions regarding Driscoll and others who cause frenzies with their poorly thought-out statements or actions. I try to stay out of the theology debates, the doctrinal arguments.
But having also recently left a church and feeling some of this same treatment, I really wanted to just say a few things to encourage Andrew.
It’s not easy, when you’ve given time and energy to a church group, volunteered your wisdom, your skills, to have the church in essence turn around and say “we don’t need/love/appreciate you”. A friend recently wrote to me that we even sometimes have higher expectations of people in church because aren’t they [we] supposed to know better?
It’s not easy to confess sin – and while it is such an important part of the community aspect of faith, it does seem like there are very few people who can be trusted to act appropriately with such confessions.
As MPT said, this kind of treatment is not something to be wished on anyone, and I’m so very sorry that you’ve been and are being treated like this, Andrew. I sincerely hope that you find a church community that will help you in the healing and restoration process.
In the end, we’re all human. And we all make mistakes. I can’t change how those members of our former church treat us. I can only control how I respond – and I hope that I respond with grace. I hope you are able to respond likewise, despite the obvious lack of grace and compassion from the leadership at Mars Hill.
Jesus didn’t go to Zacchaeus’ house simply to hang out. He called him to repent from his sinful ways – the ways of (you guessed it!) a tax collector.
There’s so much scripture taken out of context in these comments and in this post it’s appalling. I think Mars Hill nailed it.
Simply saying you’re sorry doesn’t demonstrate repentance – just like faith, the things we SAY can only be verified by what we DO.
Thank you! Someone finally got it right!
28 “What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today in the vineyard.’
29 “‘I will not,’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.
30 “Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but he did not go.
31 “Which of the two did what his father wanted?”
“The first,” they answered.
Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. 32 For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.
According to his own words, Andrew has repented and is forgiven. Don’t put that man made yoke on him. He has his own cross, you bear yours.
“Jesus didn’t go to Zacchaeus’ house simply to hang out. He called him to repent from his sinful ways – the ways of (you guessed it!) a tax collector.”
He called him to repent and follow a new set of rules and hoops? What happened to Zachaeus? Was he publicly called out and exposed to everyone in his community?
1 Jesus entered Jericho and was passing through. 2 A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus; he was a chief tax collector and was wealthy. 3 He wanted to see who Jesus was, but because he was short he could not see over the crowd. 4 So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore-fig tree to see him, since Jesus was coming that way.
5 When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today.” 6 So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly.
7 All the people saw this and began to mutter, “He has gone to be the guest of a sinner.”
8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”
9 Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”
I think that you are wrong and have twisted it to meet your yoke.
Quote the whole council of God, not just the parts that fit in your slave box.
How does one quote the whole counsel of God?
Dodge.
Not!
Aaron are you basing this on the Scripture about Zacchaeus? The only thing that we see is Jesus saying, “Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today.” What in Luke 19 shows that Jesus was there to call him out?
The beautiful thing about this story was that Jesus went there when Zacchaeus was still a sinner.
Kind of like how Romans 5:8 tells it.
ok, Andrew not only repented to his fiancé but also confessed in front of his small group. Then went before another small group. And then went before church leaders on a regular basis. I am thinking this shows some actions towards reconciliation on Andrew’s part.Secondly, no where in the story of Zaccheus do we hear Jesus call for repentance. We see that interacting with Jesus, Zaccheus is moved to change.
Scripture states that mercy leads to repentance. And I simply do not see mercy in how Mars Hill handled this. I can see having him meet with a counselor. I can see asking him to participate in a specific small group. But contracts and extended meetings upon meetings and then asking people to disassociate except in small encounters with Andrew doesn’t show mercy.
Ceasing the behavior and apologizing those you have wronged doesn’t demonstrate repentance?
What does?
This is so very disturbing. After being on staff at a church the last couple of years I now know the complexities of church work and I seem to be able, these days, to find more and more grace for churches and para-church ministries who are trying to carry on the work of God in the midst of people… the old saying “church would be a lot easier if it wasn’t for the people” 🙂 BUT IF I know anything today, it is that God is love and goodness and that God is redeemer, constantly making all things new. Thus the call of the church, the task of the church is to be those things first. To be a SAFE place for ALL. When my son does something wrong, when he misses his mark, yes there is discipline involved, a rebuke but it is not with a heavy hand but a loving heart that I do so and it’s in order for him to grow, to keep moving forward on his journey. Somehow in the economy of God I believe that “everything belongs” that God can and will use our missing the mark to teach us, to grow us, to move us forward toward our God given potential. I believe that God does not use discipline to disgrace us, push us away and humiliate us. Humiliation is never a part of our call and that’s just one of the many things I see wrong with this church, this pastor and his ways. May God have mercy on how so often we horribly have missed our call.
MPT, you are being way, WAY too kind in your recounting of this deplorable activity. It is the closest thing to the medieval abuse of religious authority that I have seen.
On one level, I simply think to myself, “Why won’t MH members just get the heck out of there?” We’ve all seen Dricsoll admit that he’s trying to get young men and their businesses into his churches. Why don’t they just leave? The problem, of course, is that the church administration has demonstrated that they will ‘go public’ at least to the rest of the community with your perceived ‘sins’ if you try to leave. THAT is the mark of a cult, and THAT is what should be reported to the authorities ASAP.
Call Dateline. Call 60 Minutes. Get the word out there that there are contracts and public shaming involved with attempting to leave Mars Hill.
And feel free to call on me if you need any support/comment.
Robert R. Cargill, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor of Religious Studies
The University of Iowa
Call BBC – Jeremy Paxman.
Dr. Cargill,
We have a similar story but not nearly as extreme as we were unwilling to have any “meetings”. Also we did not commit any sin per se other than questioning and disagreeing on secondary issues. My story will post tomorrow on the wartburg watch. I agree with you, Andrew should go public. This abuse should be exposed.
I agree in principle, but I’m not sure he should make his full name and face public unless his former fiancee gives consent. This is her story too.
Andrew, you are free! It will hurt for many years and it will take some time for your eyes have been opened to what happens at a lot of churches. Search out your heart, The Word, get council. But stay away from any of those defending what MHC did to you, until you are strong in standing on the Rock.
Stay away from Calvary Chapels, you’ll only find more of the same abuse.
I will be praying for you brother!
Because this is a sickening example of what Christianity can be. This is what the world sees. This happens to real living and feeling people. If as a Christian you believe this activity is wrong, then you are obligated to speak out. If as a human you see this as abuse, you are obligated by basic moral decency to condemn it. Looking away is akin to looking the other way when a parent beats her child bloody in Walmart.
Believing in God and belonging to a church does not give you the rights to a looser set of basic moral rules.
sigh. Comment nesting fail. It goes up there somewhere.
Here’s my question, and it’s addressed to those of you from MH who are lurking here:
If you can imagine (or already believe) that your leadership can be mistaken in its interpretation of specific texts and/or in its style of enforcing that interpretation, what is your remedy?
I’m asking as someone who has spent decades as a member of a local church, and this story has made me ask myself that very question. The answer is that the congregation at my church has the right to call a general meeting and raise questions. Do the members of MH have ONLY the option of QUIETLY leaving if they come to believe that the teaching of the church is wrong?
What non-churched people often can’t understand is how deeply involved you can get with a congregation, especially over a lifetime of associations, services, activities, and friendships. You don’t want to leave . . . there’s too much of your life and your self wrapped up in the church after awhile.
All of which is to say, choosing to belong to a church in which you have NO option except departure when you see the leadership going sideways is very risky, emotionally and spiritually.
Andrew, there are plenty of places where your adulthood and free agency is respected, and I really hope you find one.
“What non-churched people often can’t understand is how deeply involved you can get with a congregation, especially over a lifetime of associations, services, activities, and friendship”
Oh, I understand. It’s precisely why I consider many forms of organized religion to be evil and disgusting. They suck you in with the fun and helpful stuff and when you’re so deep in that you see all the nonsense and oppression, they won’t let you go or force you to pay a high price for it.
This kind of abuse has got to stop. I am weeping.
Thank you, MPT, for continuing to shine a bright light on this kind of epic failure and, yes, narcissistic antisocial behavior.
Thanks for being brave. We’re all in this together.
Prayers for Andrew. Sad that we feel the need to control the nature of God and the Spirit’s working through people.
How is it ok to post on a public Church (after logging in as a member) forum about another members “sexual sin.” That is beyond humiliating and totally inappropriate! This kind of information should NEVER be shared and if it is, then only amongst the top tier senior pastor level leadership of a Church.
Just totally and unbelievably disgusting.
Amazing. A young man who confesses, admits his mistakes, and seeks help is somehow not “repentant.” Matthew, please tell Andrew that I am praying for him – truly. I have been through the ringer with control-minded organizations who claim the name of Jesus – and it’s been a living hell. Thanks for posting this.
Ugh. That letter made me literally nauseous.
Taking one small piece of the Bible to suit one’s worldly purpose has been done by humanity since humanity began. You’d think we’d learn. Apparently not.
Perhaps Mr. Driscoll would be wise to read 2 Cor. 2:5-11.
Isn’t that just another small piece of the Bible?
My point is – they all tie together.
Words cannot express my anger against Mars Hill Church of Seattle. If I were Andrew, I would not only be hurt, I’d be furious with the way Mars Hill is handling the situation. Terrible, absolutely terrible.My prayers are with you Andrew; no one deserves that kind of treatment from their own church. No one.
Hello All,
I am not a regular reader here. I actually found this story by way of the Stuff Christian Culture Likes Facebook page. I am a former Christian (now atheist), a biologist, a father, and many other things. Hope you don’t mind my introduction.
I am not really that surprised to read this story. I have felt for a long time that MH is a creepy cult of personality built around that fake tough-guy Driscoll. I am at a loss to truly understand anymore (in an emotional way) why well-meaning Christians take people like him seriously and give him the very authority that he lords over them. I can no longer abide the idea of obedience and submission for their own sake being considered virtues of any kind, but I can remember that until only 4 years ago I did hold such a belief.
I appreciate the apparently universally negative response of the commenters here to this ludicrous contract, and I don’t want any of you to think I’m sniping at you at all. I just can’t help but feel like technically speaking MH is following the “letter of the law” on this one. In much the same way as I look at Iran and their barbaric use of hanging and stoning to this very day as a window into the horrid world that following O.T. law would create, I look at MH’s actions and see that the Bible actually does mandate things that are repugnant to morally normal people. The whole point of the passage on the process of excommunication is precisely to create a feeling of exclusion in the “unrepentant” person so that they will feel the loss, have a change of heart, and return to the fold. It is also to prevent the “sin” from infecting the congregation by being tolerated. I obviously think that’s all nonsense now but I can comprehend the motives for giving these instructions in the first place. Just like with stoning, slavery, women’s submission, homophobia, etc. the issue is not just the particular culture that embraces these practices and beliefs, as if they inject their narrow-minded prejudices into the scriptures; the problem is the Bible. It is not a very moral book, and the god portrayed therein is not a loving, benevolent friend.
I never know what to think when I hear/read things like this:
“The harsh heavy-handed ‘theology’. The misuse of scripture to validate their reasoning.”
Do you really in your heart-of-hearts believe that the problem is purely one of “manipulation”? Do you really not see that the Bible endorses evil, self-righteous, hateful treatment of others? The problem is not that Mark Driscoll is following the Bible incorrectly in my opinion, the problem is that he is following the Bible to the LETTER. I believe that the compassion that flows from your responses is a true expression of your much more enlightened and empathetic hearts, but that compassion, that empathy, and certainly that enlightened view of humanity does not flow from the Bible in the way you think it does. I think that just like the staunch fundamentalist tends to read the Bible with an eye only for the patriarchy, obedience to rules, and masochistic enjoyment of a totalitarian authority figure, well-meaning, liberal, social-justice loving Christians do the very same and selectively see only the love your neighbor and eat with prostitutes verses.
I’m not really taking the time to fully synthesize my thoughts here. I’m at work and this is off the cuff, but I just had to chime in and say that from the outside looking back in the view is clear as day. The Bible does contain nice bits about love, forgiveness, and redemption, but it is also a book that leads to mind control and emotional blackmail when followed as closely as possible. All my long years in the Church have taught me (along with my few years outside of it) that Christians are able to be compassionate and progressive, accepting of women and LGBT folks, etc. exactly to the degree to which they are able to ignore the very book they claim to be inspired by. What you create then is a form of religious humanism that ends up largely overlapping with my own secular humanist ethic because the humanism part is the important bit. Whenever the religious part takes over the tendency is to drift in the direction of Mark Driscoll, John Piper, etc. that humans are not really important and it’s all about God’s concern for his own glory (so sit down, shut up, and obey).
OK that’s enough from me. I really hope that those of you who read my comment really know that I am not attacking you as people. I just bristle at the idea that people like Mark Driscoll infect theology/the Bible with their narrow-mindedness rather than accepting the idea that the Bible contains many bad ideas that inform people and their behaviors.
My very best to you all.
MHC isn’t asking Andrew to be repentant (which he is). If he were continuing to live in the same “sin” and refused to acknowledge that what he did was wrong, then I could see your point. But it seems entirely clear that Andrew is VERY repentant, has changed his behavior, and is looking for forgiveness. What part of that makes him an “unrepentant sinner” that should be excommunicated by any church that “follow[s] the Bible to the LETTER”?
Regardless, I agree with much of what you wrote, and even this part that I’m disagreeing with contains a grain of truth.
No offense taken. I’m one of those oddballs that is both a believer in God and a skeptic at the same time, and I agree with a great deal of what you are saying. There are a great number of glaring conflicts in the Bible as you’ve mentioned, and one of the huge failures of Christianity from both the liberal and conservative sides is the ability to see those conflicts; rather, both sides usually attempt to say that the Bible is an infallible book inspired by God, rather than the best understanding man had of the works of God at the time that each part was written, and even then after being passed on as primarily oral tradition and heavily edited thereafter. To top that off, it was written in archaic versions of more than one language. And, in the case of the New Testament, written in a language other than it was spoken and lived (it’s doubtful Jesus preached in the same Greek that recorded it). So what you get by the time you get to (X) language/revised translation *swearing* that it’s the most accurate translation from its original Greek/Hebrew/(Language Y) it is in fact already a translation itself subject to fallabilities.
So you really have to pick and choose no matter what. You have to take a look back and see what still works and what doesn’t. This is going to seem like a weird way to say it, but you have to look at the Bible like you look at scientific research. You can have a bad/outdated set of research that still has good stuff in it, and may even lay the foundation for research in unintended fields. If you want to talk about stuff that every other Christian loves to talk about, let’s use Darwin as a sparkling example. Darwin did not write the final version of evolutionary theory. The theory of evolution has changed over time as new research is added. That some of Darwin’s original writings were a bit off does not mean that the theory that arose from it is wrong. We are allowed to pick out and uphold those parts of Darwin’s research that fall in line with our current knowledge of the evolutionary process.
So yeah, the test of time withstanding, the Bible is a pretty barebones thing for either political perspective…
I really, really like this comment, Marcus.
Thanks. It’s not as sharp as I wanted it to be, but then again it was past my bedtime when I wrote it.
You’re welcome. I am a liberal and quite skeptical Christian who views the Bible similarly to how you do. I have a degree in Christianity & Culture (think halfway in between theology and religious studies, with some interdisciplinary stuff relating Christianity and the humanities thrown in) from a liberal Catholic college within a large secular public university, so I’m pretty familiar with the issues in Bible translation and the diverse range of ways in which Scripture has been interpreted over time. It’s always refreshing to encounter people of faith who are also skeptical and wary of a lot of stuff in religion.
A bit harsh? Yes. But don’t forget that although Jesus was and is indeed love that he was also HARDEST on the people He was closest to and most loving to the prostitutes, tax collectors, etc. Come on…He called Peter Satan! Why is no one jumping all over Jesus’ back for being mean? MD and MHC’s spirit and heart are in the right place. Can they use this situation to learn something? I hope so. Do we know the WHOLE story here? I doubt it……………..
Did you ever make out with a girlfriend to whom you weren’t married? Did you ever feel like you deserved to be excommunicated from your church as a result?
I almost feel this is a Papcy Inquisition or the Blacklisting of “communists”. Firstly, the fact that the female never faced any sort of accountability for her sins just rubs me the wrong way. However, as a person who grew up with legalism and horrible HORRIBLE church situations, I would rather error on the side of grace in most situations. If I remember correctly in 1 Peter we are to bring back into the flock a fallen brother/sister gently and careful that we do not fall into sin in doing so. I believe all scripture should be interpreted through the filter of Jesus and how he reacted towards sinners. The woman at the well was in sin when He spoke and revealed major spiritual truths to her. As well as the “adulterous woman” — he didn’t require a contract or a list of things she needed to do for forgiveness.
I realize that my Biblical illustrations are those who were not saved when Jesus met them, but since we are to TREAT those who are in unrepentant sin as sinners it is important to see how Jesus treated those who were not His.
Anyways, it’s just my two cents and many others here have probably said the same thing in different forms. Andrew, I’ll be praying for you since I empathize with being hurt by the body and needing to heal from such deep wounds.
I wonder, would handling “church discipline” in such a manner that, by posting ins-sided and somewhat exaggerated claims in mass-letter form in such a way that it interferes with so many of his relationships and thereby causing him to even go so far as to seek counselling (I presume this isn’t free) border on libel or defamation?
*”ins-sided” meaning “one-sided. Oops.
Yeah, it’d be crazy if someone posted a crazy, one-sided rant trying to defame another, right?
Something like this?:
http://matthewpaulturner.net/jesus-needs-new-pr/mar…
While I’m sure your link to a MPT post made for a most clever and biting retort, the link is broken, and thus the cleverness is somewhat diminished.
It was this post. And, well… Whatever. You get the point 🙂
I hope so. I hope Andrew sues for the counselling costs, too.
I’m not sure he can sue them for libel since “Pastor X” doesn’t mention any illegal criminal allegations against Andrew. The government doesn’t like to get involved in “church” matters. But The Church at large can do their part by speaking out about this abuse..which Matthew has begun here on his blog.
were there any patient/counselor privacy/confidentiality laws broken here?
Ha ha ha, similar ideas at about the same time. 🙂
No, luckily the state doesn’t govern such affairs between clergy and parishioners. Not to mention, Andrew made his own “record” public. MPT didn’t do it behind his back.
Robert, I think Donald was asking more about MHC making their letter to Andrew available to the whole church, not about MPT publishing this post.
“Confidentiality laws” seems to imply state governance.
In any event, I would hazard to guess that making it available to the congregation is in MHC’s bylaws, which Andrew should have already read prior to becoming a member.
BTW – Mt 18:17 “tell it to the church” – It seems church bylaws referencing discipline would be in accordance with that verse.
And in order to be a member, Andrew would taken a Doctrine Class, which uses Driscoll & Breshears’ “Doctrine” as its curriculum. Andrew would have read Chapter 10, which deals with discipline, and would have consented to it. No “laws” have been broken.
I’m not so sure Mark Driscoll has even submitted himself to any state on ‘confidentiality’. Is he a licensed counselor? You see, this is how religious leaders get around the law of the land and people continue to go unprotected.
I just find it sickening when pastors pretend to be mental healthcare providers although they have no training whatsoever. There are so many people who need real help, but are only talked to by pastors. The damage that causes is incalculable
In your article above you wrote “At times, this letter comes off like the Roman Catholic church during the Dark Ages.”
Really?
Mathew what in the world does the role of the Catholic Church in Europe’s middle ages have to do with Mark Driscoll? That is the period where the Catholic Church developed monasteries and hospitals, the period of great advance in care and hospitality and education where virtually every activity of benevolence was performed by Monks, Priests, and Bishops and the period where the Bible was produced at the toil of monks for the Good of the Church. Odd that you would use old and outdated slanders and prejudice to justify your new prejudice – I am happy for you to have found Driscoll to give you that sense of worthiness that so many cannot find from Christ himself.
can’t believe all you people believe everything you read. I happen to believe that Pastor Mark is doing a wonderful work and talking about issues make most pastors uncomfortable. I find this hard to believe.
So you’re saying Andrew (and MPT) made this story up? That would, indeed, be quite a fabrication. That’s also quite an accusation you’re making at Andrew and MPT–have any way to back it up, other than what you “believe” about “Pastor Mark”?
I’m thinking she meant that there are 2 sides to every story…
Andrew, dude, this is insanity. You realize that, right? If you look closely, I think you’ll find these people actually breathe through gills. They are some sort of created on day 4, not yet fully evolved species. Those of us who left the fundamentalists long ago don’t even attempt to reason with them. It’d be like trying to teach calculus to a Basset Hound.
In the future, if you feel the need to talk about your sex (or almost sex) life with someone…find a normal, reasonable guy to talk to–a guy who will keep it to himself. It’s a good way to preserve your sanity AND the privacy of the woman/women you’re sleeping (or not sleeping) with.
This is a fantastic comment. Having walked away from a neo-fundamentalist cult just like MH but in another part of the country, everything you are saying is absolutely true. It’s hardly worth reasoning. Better to use the enrgy and time to heal, grow, listen to the Spirit.
How can anyone in his or her right mind not call this the activity of a cult?
You are compelled as a condition of further participation to write out in detail your sexually explicit sins, while refusal to do so leads to directives to other members to ostracize and not communicate with the excommunicated individual?
How is this NOT the activity of a cult?
You know the scene in Mean Girls when the burn book the Plastics kept was published in the school hallway? Mars Hill is sooooo Regina George.
This made me laugh so hard. Can we be best friends?
I’m a very conservative, reformed Christian and I am shaking in anger at reading parts 1 and 2.
First up, Matthew is clear about discipline, and the statement about treating the continually unrepentant as a tax collector (one of the most despised roles in Judaic culture) or a gentile IS about excommunication, but that’s for someone who has been unrepentent (unwilling to confess his sin and turn from it) even when it has been brought forward to the congregation. This man repented of his sin right off the bat and sought reconciliation. YES it was a situation requiring discipline and involvement of the girl’s family, etc., but the treatment of this guy as some kind of unrepentant wolf and then the voyeuristic “contract” is not just overboard but a violation of the very commands of scripture that Jesus lays out in Matthew’s gospel.
Further, that public letter is itself a violation of the ten commandments, for it bears false witness against the kid. It says he is unrepentent and unwilling to submit to discipline. Both charges false on their face. Unless this young man was lying to the blog poster, he was both repentant and willing to submit to biblical church discipline. Key word there was biblical.
This makes Perry Noble’s sheep-beating sermons seem mild in comparison.
I hope this young man is in a godly, faithful, conservative, bible-believing church that is willing to stand up for him while also overseeing his spiritual care. What he did was not merely a mistake, but serious sin. However, discipline is designed to help a believer who has departed to the “far country” realize just how far he is and to encourage him to come back, not an excuse to beat him spiritually bloody and then both libel and slander him in public in this manner. God forbid!
As a moderate, Wesleyan/Arminian Christian, I appreciate your candor, and your willingness to speak out. Sincerely. It’s hard to to speak against one of the public faces of “your own”. Thank you.
I agree. Not enough Christians speak out against abuses practiced by other Christians, and I see it even less from conservative Christians than from liberal Christians. I really only see conservative Christians condemn spiritual abuse if they themselves are spiritual abuse survivors. For all I don’t think you and I have a lot in common with regard to sexual ethics (although yes, I am a Christian), I commend your condemnation of Mars Hill’s behaviour.
Making out, as an adult, is a “serious sin”?
The information we are receiving is coming from one side of the story so it seems reasonable to dive into all this with hat in mind. I’m all for the church being involved in discipline if it is with restoration being the end goal. If it is discipline for the sole purpose of being reprimanded than I think there are some red flags that arise. We can’t forget that Jesus spoke a number of times about the infection sin can bring to the community of faith. But he also said “I don’t condemn you.” Jesus was about reconciliation and restoration and that is the beauty of grace and forgiveness. One of the first questions I had was; What is the woman involved in this issue is being asked to do? If she has not been required to walk through the same process than I think a dangerous precedent is being set.
True.
The information we are receiving is coming from one side of the story
That’s not entirely true. We have Mark’s teaching on Church Discipline, and we have the email records, official letters, and public comments in the MH online community. We have, at least in part, MH’s side of this situation as well.
Mark Driscoll has already proven himself to be a sick, evil sociopath. So why should we believe anything he says on the matter? This fits perfectly with everything he has already done or said
I know everyone is probably itching to hear Mars Hill’s side of the story, but bear in mind that the church is under no obligation to answer to a random blogger and his following.
I’m not a Matthew Paul Turner follower. I follow him on Twitter, so I suppose there’s that. But it’s not as if I’m his disciple or something. He’s an author I enjoy reading, that’s it.
It sound to me like MH’s side of the story is more or less contained here.
Snore. Someone is chaffing at being disciplined. Disciplined by a system (church) that the person openly and intentionally associated themselves with. Disciplined in a way that was clearly spelled out before they joined. It is like complaining when you get benched by your basketball coach in High School. It is like throwing a fit when the coach makes you run extra the next day in practice. Snore. The bigger issue is that there is about a handful of churches in our country who actually attempt to live out biblical church discipline (regardless of whether Mars Hill is getting it right or not).
Like
exactly
Actually, I asked Andrew this question. And while “church discipline” as a concept is certainly presented when you become a member, the methods used are not spelled out.
At a minimum, Andrew should have known that church discipline could involved the elders and the entire congregation. To what extent should be the only shocker.
A defining feature of cults is that they don’t tell you everything until you’re sucked in
I so agree!
yes, when one joins a church there is expectation that one would be held to accountability. But we also expect that we will encounter mercy and grace since that is what is preached. We do not expect to be abused and bullied.And I am glad you have that much knowledge about churches in our country. how many churches did you visit to be able to make the statement “there is about a handful of churches in our country who actually attempt to live out biblical church discipline?” Or did you do a survey? And what is your definition of “church discipline”?
Leanne – I pastor a church that admittedly does poorly at this, though we’re working to get better. People don’t want to be disciplined. Even people that enter willingly into a covenant. Even people who up front agree to the very process Mars Hill Church.
But I was speaking in hyperbole – heard of that? The point isn’t that there is a literal 5 churches practicing this, but that very few in fact do practice this. I could name more than 5 off the top of my head, but they are by far in the minority.
I think it is a red herring to complain about the discipline in this case. The guy was busted in his sexual sin and is clearly unrepentant from all that has been presented. Whether or not that is even limited to the confines of the church he entered into covenant with. Rather than repent and be restored, or repent and leave the church, he’s chosen the red herring to blame others and not deal with the real sin going on. Nobody likes to have the spotlight shined on their sin. So rather than dealing with his own sin problem, he’s now roped thousands of others in, created anger, hatred and vitriol all because he couldn’t keep it in his pants and follow God’s plan for sexuality. Wow. Sad. Regardless of how Mars Hill handled it, that’s a hot mess of his own making.
clearly unrepentant?Just because he came to a point where he said he felt controlled and would not continue with their “program of repentance”?
He was not busted in his sexual sins. He came forward and confessed.
I attended seminary and counseling courses. And in my course on reconciliation, the “contract” between two parties trying to reconcile was never to be this one sided. When it is one sided on the offenders side, it demeans the offended. If it is one sided on the offended side, it shames the offender. And there cannot be reconciliation. This contract indicates to me it is not working towards repentance or reconciliation but instead towards shaming the offender.
This is not discipline. This is not a mess of his own making—because he doesn’t live in a vacuum. The girls had a part in it, Mars Hill has had a part in it, we have had a part in it. And so have you.
And that statement that Mars Hill is the only one addressing issues of sin is sad. There are plenty of churches who are not in the spot light who are working side by side, quietly without destroying the sinner through shame, to help people be more Christ like. I take offense to your statement because I have been members of many churches who have helped many grow deeper in faith and relationship, over come struggles and sins. No they didn’t have a written contract with sinners, they had small groups who supported and helped each other without parading the sinner in front of many people in the church.
That was well written Leanne.
“When it is one sided on the offenders side, it demeans the offended. If it is one sided on the offended side, it shames the offender. And there cannot be reconciliation. This contract indicates to me it is not working towards repentance or reconciliation but instead towards shaming the offender.”
I think this deserves repeating.
Are you being intentionally obtuse? Mars Hill is the only one in the issue at hand that has shown any action – regardless of whether we agree with their specific action. And trying to add the women into it is a red herring in the discussion at hand.
I’m pretty sure in non-religious circles you would be the one considered obtuse for many reasons, the first one being for trying to use the language of critical thinking and logic to defend religion. But I digress.
No I am not being intentionally obtuse. Thanks for that. I am trying to point out that you are making a generalization. If you wish to say Mars Hill is the only one in this story dealing with discipline in this persons life ‘s is one thing.But your statement doesn’t say that. You said, mars hills is the only one dealing with the sin issue……which makes it a much larger perimeter than you possibly mean. You might want to choose your words more cautiously.
But you don’t know if Mars Hill is the only church willing to hold this person accountable. Perhaps there are others, less controlling who would be willing to help him.
And trying to add the women is not. The issue is he is not in a vacuum. He didn’t act alone. There are many people hurt and used and abused in this situation. To say he alone has made this mess is to deny all the other factors. I for one am not a victim. If a man wants to have sex with me, I have the power to say no. Andrew in fact stops the activity as he feels he is going too far. The woman had all the same options. Please stop degrading women by saying we don’t have a say. No they are not to blame. But there are consenting adults here.
Also, dealing with the sin issue…..according to Scripture we are given the ministry of reconciliation. As I stated above, the contract was not written with the goal of reconciliation. If it was, these people need to learn what reconciliation and forgiveness means.
You are really good at saying things I said that I did not say. The issue at hand is a church and a man, not the women though they were indeed part of it. To my knowledge from what has been presented the women weren’t in a covenant relationship with MHC as the man was. But either way the focus of the post and issue at hand is the man and the church. So by addressing them at the exclusion of the other parties is in no way degrading women. I’m very pro-women! But again your preconceptions of who I am push you to read into it something that isn’t there.
From what I can tell from what had been presented, the church is the one who is dealing with the issue (again, not commenting on whether HOW they did it was properly administered and situationally appropriate). The man started down the path of dealing with it, but has walked away from that process and nothing has been put forth to show he is seeking guidance, wisdom nor restoration through any other channels (other churches etc.). In fact, he openly admits that he was intentionally deceptive at the end of the process he walked away from.
his fiancé was the daughter of one of the elders of the church and I believe it stated in the first part that she was part of the small group also.
Or instead of blaming me fully, I will take part of the blame, perhaps you can be more clear in your writing.
You were not clear as to stating the woman was not in covenant relationship with the church. You simply said that the man got himself in to his own mess. And that is not true. His fiancé whom he was having relationships was part of the small group also.
And as I stated, this contract does not look in any ways to be about reconciliation but control and shame. I would never tell anyone they should submit to this or else they are unrepentant. He confessed, he worked through the process they created up to a point when he felt it was out of control. When he felt he was being abused, he got out.
So I can not say he was being unrepentant because he would not allow himself to be demeaned or controlled. I cannot say he was fully repentant either. But I can say that this contract is completely one sided which makes it abusive. And I would not condemn or judge anyone for walking away from this contract. In my opinion, he did the right thing when he followed his conviction and confessed to his small group. He did the right thing giving the system a chance. He did the right thing not to sign the contract and to get out of the relationship with that church.
I get that she was part of the group, but at least in what was presented I didn’t see her being involved in this disciplining (perhaps they are doing one with her separately?) process with him so I wonder if she is under the covenant. It could be nepotism, that is always possible, but I don’t have anything to go off of there.
I will certainly try to be more clear. But walking away or not, I don’t see that there has been further follow up, and if you are telling this story and you have completed the process elsewhere, it would be fitting to include that.
And thus far, the only one I’ve seen actually trying to address the sin issue is Mars Hill Church. Go figure.
As far as I’m concerned, the requirement in the contract presented to Andrew that he detail all his sexual sins is no different than the Scientological “auditing” that extracts similar information, which is then stored in folders. As you can see, Andrew’s confession was regurgitated into the Keep Away order posted on the internal Mars Hill networking site. That’s similar to the “disconnection orders” and “Suppressive Person declares” issued by $cientology to members who have become its “enemies.”
The true irony in this situation is that the young man confessed his sins and went to meetings to discuss this for a month, but you know what, his Mars Hill leaders couldn’t bring themselves to say, “You’re forgiven, go and sin no more.” Instead, they wanted him to do more and more and more, in effect heaping chains on him, WITH NO INDICATION of WHEN those chains would be unlocked and under what circumstances. (Can I just say again how particularly appalled I am by the voyeuristic desire to know all the details of his sins? It’s NOT NECESSARY.)
I’ve spent the last 18 years of my life letting people know (in my spare time) about the evils of $cientology, and one of the more unfortunate things to come out of this is the grim realization that the behavior seen in $cientology is only slightly more excessive than that seen in churches. And, in fact, I remember how appalled I was a decade ago when I heard what the lawyers for the Boston Archdiocese were doing to victims of priestly sex abuse, because it was WORSE than the lawyers for the notoriously litigious space-alien cult. Mars Hill is the same deal, the same kind of abuses seen in known cults, but covered over because Driscoll allegedly preaches the correct doctrine and he tells people that God hates them and they’re going to hell, which has him a lot of followers among the muscular male Christianity crowd.
Chris Meirose, your defense of what is basically indefensible is yet another reason why I bailed on the church. If your actions are indistinguishable from that of a known cult, there’s no number of Bible verses that will make what you say right. You can condemn me for putting on secular standards; go right ahead, believe me, I’ve heard LOTS worse. But this is straight up abuse and in my mind, there’s no defense.
Can you identify for me where I’ve given any support to Mars Hill’s actions? My focus has been on this man’s actions with a few comments toward the church as well as me pointing out they are one of the few who are actually trying to use church discipline. While I’m pro church discipline, I’m pretty sure I’ve refrained from both praise or condemnation of the actions in this particular church’s application. That is quite intentional because I only have part of the story. But don’t let that get in the way of your rant and desire to castigate me as a defender of alleged abusers.
I went back and read your posts, and you’re being disingenuous at best. You praise Mars Hill above: “And thus far, the only one I’ve seen actually trying to address the sin issue is Mars Hill Church. Go figure.”
Then while you say to me that you’ve not given any support for Mars Hill’s actions, but what about this? You had absolutely NO PROBLEM trashing the young man here:
“I think it is a red herring to complain about the discipline in this case. The guy was busted in his sexual sin and is clearly unrepentant from all that has been presented. Whether or not that is even limited to the confines of the church he entered into covenant with. Rather than repent and be restored, or repent and leave the church, he’s chosen the red herring to blame others and not deal with the real sin going on. Nobody likes to have the spotlight shined on their sin. So rather than dealing with his own sin problem, he’s now roped thousands of others in, created anger, hatred and vitriol all because he couldn’t keep it in his pants and follow God’s plan for sexuality. Wow. Sad. Regardless of how Mars Hill handled it, that’s a hot mess of his own making.”
It’s abundantly apparent that you DO support Mars Hill because they’re at least trying to impose discipline, even if you don’t state it outright. How can I tell? Because while you DO NOT know the state of Andrew’s heart, you very clearly say that he’s unrepentant. HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT? You simply have no problem in judging Andrew and saying the situation was a “hot mess of his own making.” If that’s not judgmental, I don’t know what is.
I pity the people who sit under you as pastor. I’m sure you’re just a barrel of fun. NOT.
Pointing out that Mars Hill was making an effort is factual, no praise. Do I think it good that a church try to walk through a discipline process with its members who are in this situation? Certainly. Is that an endorsement of HOW they have done it? Certainly not. There is an important distinction there that you are missing. I have indeed said based on the evidence presented (which is all we have to deal with rather than assuming things) that repentance is not evident. It would be different if he shared that he has gone to church XYZ down the street to continue to work through the issue (or whatever other way(s) he has pursued in his life to deal with the issue). So I can only address it to the extent it has been presented. Perhaps you have information on how he has followed up on dealing with his core issue beyond his issue with the church that I am not aware of?
Dude, it’s only been a month. Do you really expect him to form a strong new relationship with another church and pastor–one deep enough for confessing and working through of sexual sin to be appropriate–in such a short time frame after he left his previous, abusive church? It can take years, even decades after leaving a spiritually abusive situation for a person to be able to trust another church and pastor. In fact, for someone who’s just left an abusive situation so recently, I’d say it would be unhealthy if he DID form a super-close attachment to another church in no time flat!
Besides, what else Andrew has done to deal with this situation is his own concern and not relevant to the core of the story, which is about Mars Hll’s abusive behaviour. Give him some privacy and some time.
Dealing with a sin issue doesn’t require a strong relationship, though it can certainly be helpful. So would I expect him to seek out someone to work this out with? Yeah, I would if he wants to clean this up. I can’t imagine letting it drag on for years or decades if I was really repentant.
Chris, if you can’t recognize that you trashed Andrew in the guise of defending the exposure of sexual sin (oh my, the worst sin on the planet!), then there is nothing more I have to say to you…except to point out that I went to your blog. I noted that you have links to lots of other blogs, but at the top of the list is MARK DRISCOLL. One of your favorite churches is MARS HILL SEATTLE. How can you possibly say that you’re being non-judgmental about this? It’s obvious that you’re a Driscoll fanboi. Why can’t you be honest about it?
We may have exhausted how far the site will let us thread down responses – I can’t reply to your last comment (below) so I’m doing here (above).
I won’t deny that I enjoy much of what Driscoll has to say, but that doesn’t put him above reproach (nor his church). I could give you a list the length of my arm with things he’s said or done that I disagree with. I can do the same – and honestly longer – for John Piper. But I enjoy Piper’s ministry as well. I’ve benefited greatly from resources that MHC have made public. I love that they give their stuff away free of charge. But by definition of fanboi, I don’t qualify.
Interesting that you have lowered yourself to personal attacks rather than addressing the issue here. Quite uncharitable, but I forgive you anyhow.
Being able to make a reasonable judgment about whether you can safely trust a church with the details of your sex life does require a strong relationship.
Snore. A young man’s life and faith are completely destroyed.
This comment makes me shake with anger.
If his faith was destroyed due to his sexual sin, then I’d question his faith. Sin has consequences, so that it is impacting his life is no surprise (above and beyond the issue with his church). If his faith is destroyed because it was in his church and not Jesus, again I’d question his faith. So not sure where your point lies. But shake away.
When your church’s actions are no better than that of a notorious cult, then the young man did right to leave. People are NOT required to sit still for abusive behavior in the name of so-called “church discipline.”
And I’d in no way disagree with that Deana. It still remains though to follow up with the sin issue if/when you walk away.
If his faith is destroyed by spiritual abuse from a church which said it was doing “church discipline,” I’d say the cure was worse than the disease.
The Catholics have this thing, it is called “confession,” and you confess to a priest under seal of confidentiality, and are absolved, given penance (clearly spelled out) and told to stop sinning. It sounds much, much healthier than what we are reading about here. It sounded like Mars Hill wanted complete control of the man’s sexual thoughts and dating life with no end in sight and no sign what this man could do to persuade them that he was no longer “in sin”– besides writing porn for the pastors–although it’s quite clear that, with no fiancee, being shunned, and a load of guilt about the other girl, he’s not actually continuing in whatever unspecified “physical” activities is being called “sin” here. Unless he’s masturbating, which I believe Mars Hill defines as “homosexuality”, so maybe it’s that?
demonstrates the necessity for more christ-conscious communities to arise
I’m hearing alot of opinions without scripture backing. What about I Corinthians 5:9-13…Read it and comment. This makes a distinction between believers and unbelievers. The sins listed here are sexually immoral, covetous(porn applies) , idolater,or reviler, drunkard or extortioner.-do not even eat with such a person. This verse makes a CLEAR distinction between judging Christians verses letting God judge non-Christians.Also…Jesus was talking to the Jews who wouldn’t even talk to taxcollectors..or eat out of a container that a gentile had eated out of. He knew very well how they treated them..thats why he said treat like you treat the gentiles and taxcollectors. He didn’t say treat them how “I” treat them.
Look at the fruit of this…did Andrew pray for his enemies or did he revile them? Are YOU praying for this ministry or are YOU reviling them? Lets look at Jesus’ example : 1Peter 2:23 Who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously.
Wait…Did you just argue that Jesus didn’t want his followers to treat people like he treated them? Are you saying that Jesus just wanted them to redirect their unChristlike attitudes toward a different set of people?
Adam, I think that is exactly what he said. I don’t beleive Christ ever said “do what I say, not what I do” He did say, “pick up your cross and follow me”
I do not think this is a case of Matthew or Andrew “reviling” their enemies. Mars Hill is in a position of power over Andrew. The 1 Cor passage you mentioned doesn’t address power imbalances. A closer Scriptural parallel would be the Old Testament prophets, who (like Matthew and Andrew) called out the abuses of people in positions of power without hesitation. Similarly, Jesus responded very differently to socially powerful religious leaders than to ordinary people who were not in positions of power. His level of harshness to people was generally directly proportional to the extent to which they had the power to harm others. Matthew and Andrew’s behaviour in calling out abusive religious authorities is consistent with both the Old Testament prophets’ example and Jesus’.
In 1 Cor. 5, a man is having sex with his mother in law (a type of sin that isn’t even accepted among the Gentiles, Paul says).
In this instance, a man had sex with his fiancee.
Sure, there is a difference between the two?
I think it would be interesting to consider what would have happened if Andrew would have signed the contract, and submitted to the process that was proposed by MH leadership. I think he would have emerged as a much smaller person who had allowed himself to have others to enter into the very heart of his intimate relationship with his heavenly Father. I believe his faith would have become more group activity than personal relationship with God. Then his life would be more about keeping up with “group think” and keeping leadership pleased with him.This may have given him better standing with the group and even secured a place for him in leadership. But he as a person and as man living before God would have been diminished ( and not in that John the Baptist, noble way)
He said he came to Seattle to “find himself” and in my opinion this is his moment. He can become a man of God without compromise. He won’t have to depend upon a group to stand, however he can develop a healthy love for the body of Christ, and develop a gracious heart that will accept their failings. Then he will be better equipped to bless others.
Good for Andrew for not allowing himself to be abused. I hope he will continue to grow and not become bitter, but rise above this nonsense.
MPT and Andrew, I am sorry for unnecessary pain that the church has inflicted on you and many others over the years. There are those who probably would cheer the return of the Inquisitions as well.While telling the church what they should say is actually pretty creepy, and I don’t even know what “gospel shame” means, but when did it become so wrong to be biblical? Grace does not ignore sin it should lead us away from it. Why can’t we hold each other accountable? Literal does not necessarily mean legalistic. There are those who give everything away and that has been attacked as well as being too literal, so isn’t that legalistic? We have to be careful to not let our worldviews define scripture. It is easy to read only what we want and not allow for the hard truths that are there. There are plenty of places in scripture that I wish I didn’t have to acknowledge, like my level of forgiveness toward others is the level that I will be forgiven (Mt. 6:12,14-15). As a sexual abuse survivor that’s tough, but I am called to forgive even as Jesus forgave from the cross and Stephen forgave as stones were being launched at him, and I could only do that through the Holy Spirit.
It seems that we attack literalists as legalists when it doesn’t fit what we want the church to be. We can’t throw out Mt. 18 or 1 Corinthians 5 just because we don’t like it.
Andrew, if you are reading this you need to find a good lawyer. What this pastor/church is doing by posting this letter on the public internet to get out is posting something that you privately shared in confidence not to be smeared all over the internet. Although I am a lawyer, I am not a lawyer licensed in your state so I cannot give you legal advice. Nevertheless, if you were in my state, you would likely have a claim for invasion of privacy among others perhaps. I am not saying that you should definitely file a suit. What I am saying as a Christian lawyer is that you should at least educate yourself on your legal rights, especially if this spreads like wildfire and impacts your ability to be employed, pursue future relationships etc.. You should contact the association/organization of plaintiff trial lawyers in your state for a referral. If you can’t find someone, you can contact national headquarters, the American Association of Justice who may perhaps be able to refer you to a competent lawyer in your state. Again, I am not encouraging you to file a suit. What i am encouraging you is to seek objective counsel who can provide you competent, objective, legal advice to advise you of your rights in case this spirals even more. This pastor sounds like a control freak nut who has very dysfunctional, controlling abusive relationships with his wife and his church. Be glad you dodged a bullet. Fortunately you got out of there before you drank the koolaid. Look, don’t beat yourself up about the cheating either. (I am a woman, Christian lawyer, by the way who knows what its like to be on the receiving end of cheating and how much it hurts. But I am telling you, We all sin and make mistakes. You sound like a really good guy who made a mistake but had the decency to confess to his fiance that he screwed up rather than hide it. Then, because you are a trusting Christian person, you entrusted your confidence with other believers who unfortunately turned out to be a mix of Nathaniel Hawthorne’s The Scarlet Letter and Jim Jones. Good luck to you. You are a good guy. We all make mistakes and do dumb things that hurt the people we love, especially when we are younger. But forgive yourself like Christ forgave you. You are going to get through this. I rdon’t know anything about Mark Driscoll but I do know that when churches sometimes don’t have a hierarchy of accountability in a denomination, and pastors don’t have to report to anybody, these things can happen. Find yourself a good church that avoids that type of situation next time. Hang in there. This too shall pass.
Yes! Yes! Wise counsel. Thanks.
I was caught in sexual immorality, I submitted to the dicipline laid out by my leaders, treated summarily to Andrew, only I submitted, and now I’m free from the bondage and have been restored.
I am very glad that my fellow brothers in Christ cared more for my relationship with Jesus more than I did because at that time I didnt know what it ment to fear of the Lord. I bet it was difficult for my leaders to humble themselves and demand I either stop calling myself a Christ follower or stop sinning and submit to discipline. I was not disfellowshipped, because I honored the Lord by honoring my authorities, and now have personal freedom from that bondage, I now have fellowship that so strong, pleasant, and refreshing. I pray the Lord continues to discipline me through revealing sin to me or my brothers, I pray God conforms me into the image of his Son, I pray he gives me the perseverance to deny myself and take up my cross and follow Him. If anyone has read this I wish for you to have lives walked in the light and accountability.
Andrew I know the offense you feel, but no discipline feels good at the time. Please prayerfully consider humbling yourself so that God may lift you up. If you refuse to go to mars hill then at your new place of fellowship tell the leaders of your sin, put them in touch with the leaders at mars hill, humble yourself, commit to fellowship somewhere God is leading you and invest yourself.
Bryan
What happened to Andrew goes beyond church discipline. Writing down past sins for someone else is really dredging up transgressions that have been forgiven by God. If Andrew has confessed his previous sins to God, he is forgiven and no church has the right to hold them against him. Attempting restitution is a scriptural concept.
I’ve said this in the previous thread, I believe that a good deal of this is caused by the fact that the woman that he was engaged to was the daughter of an elder. The meetings and the actions taken were disproportionate to what happened.
Bryan, I hate to break it to you, bud, but you are one totally brain-washed victim of the religious abuse of your church’s so called “authority”. Someday, if you are lucky, you’ll awaken from this hypnotic dream state and find your true humanity instead of this false bondage. Good luck!
this is satire right? this can’t possibly be serious. can it?
this is all too similar to all the “Driscoll wanna-be” churches. Very arrogant, proud, narcissistic behavior from the pastor. Oh, how I long for a HUMBLE, broken, and contrite man of God who happens to have a position of Pastor at the church.
Andrew, when I first saw this, I wanted to talk to you about how I feel conservative Christian sexual ethics are a form of spiritual and emotional bondage, and about how much damage I have seen them do even when there is less overt abuse of power than has happened with Mars Hill in your situation. I wanted to tell you how ridiculous it is that Mars Hill isn’t okay with two people who love each other being physically intimate, and doesn’t even really seem to distinguish between that and cheating on a partner. I still want to highlight the way conservative Christian sexual ethics erases the distinction between sexual acts that hurt people (e.g. being intimate with someone other than your primary partner, without that primary partner’s consent) and sexual acts that don’t hurt people (e.g. making out with your fiancee). I feel that this directly contributes to conservative Christians doing things like cheating on their partners (or engaging in much worse forms of sexual misconduct), because if someone just can’t suppress their sexuality completely and doesn’t distinguish between harmful and not-harmful sexual acts, they’re more likely to end up doing harmful sexual things than they would if they were okay with indulging in sex where nobody gets hurt.
However, Andrew, I don’t think questioning the entire moral system you grew up with is necessarily something you need to focus on right now. What you need to focus on is the fact that you’re not the crazy one here. That’s a really, really important thing to remember for anyone in an abusive situation, especially if they’re coming to terms with the fact that the situation is abusive and getting out, like you are. You are NOT the crazy one. You’re a perfectly sane, reasonable guy with what seems to be a decent moral compass who did something wrong and tried to deal with it in the best way you knew how. Mars Hill and Pastor X are the crazy fucked up ones. They are on a sexually voyeuristic power trip and you happened to end up as a convenient target. It’s not your fault. You don’t need to hate yourself for not knowing better than to end up in that situation. Spiritual abuse is something that is rarely talked about and most people–especially young people who were raised Christian and homeschooled–don’t see it coming.
You are mostly innocent in this. The only thing you did wrong was cheat on your fiancee, and you owned up to that of your own accord pretty damned fast. You did the right thing by leaving Mars Hill, and you did the right thing by approaching Matthew Paul Turner. It’s important to have people advocating for you and reinforcing your sense of the reality of the situation. Having people tell you you’re not crazy, and having people tell other people you’re not crazy, is healing. Furthermore, if an abusive person or system is continuing to abuse, speaking openly about the abuse where many people will get the news is a public service. You have acted with great courage and integrity by going public about this and thereby 1) warning other people not to get involved with Mars Hill’s abusive system and 2) reassuring others who Mars Hill has burned badly that they’re not alone. I repeat: You are doing the right thing.
Stay in therapy, Andrew. Only make sure that you’ve got a good therapist, one who can help you find your own path out of this without pushing their own beliefs (whether conservative Christian, sex-positive, or somewhere in between) on you or making excuses for Mars Hill. When you’re ready, maybe talk to a lawyer about whether you’ve got a libel case, and if you do, make sure you sue for the counseling costs too. Document everything that has happened, in as much specific detail as possible: names, dates, times, direct quotes. It’ll help you if you go to court, and it’ll help if you have to reassure yourself that everything really was as fucked up as you feel like it was.
I know you’ve lost an incredibly important community in your life, and I also know that it may be hard for you to find another church community because often after one is spiritually abused, attempts at church involvement trigger a lot of negative emotions due to being reminded of the abuse. I suggest that you look for community online. Online community isn’t enough to completely fulfill your human need for companionship, but it can help a lot. Google things like “Mars Hill spiritual abuse”. Check out communities that address some of the problems in evangelicalism without being anti-Christian, like Stuff Christian Culture Likes and Slacktivist. You’re going to need all the support you can get.
Andrew, I wish you well!
“I still want to highlight the way conservative Christian sexual ethics erases the distinction between sexual acts that hurt people (e.g. being intimate with someone other than your primary partner, without that primary partner’s consent) and sexual acts that don’t hurt people (e.g. making out with your fiancee).”
Could you point to the place(s) in the Bible where it makes these types of differentiations for sexual ethics? I suspect not, but maybe you can enlighten me. And so we’re clear – by “conservative Christians” do you mean “people who really believe what the Bible says”? Just so we’re working with the same definition.
I am speaking from long experience of conservative Christianity. If you believe that all moral positions must be based on the Bible with no role for reason and experience, and that “really believing what the Bible says” means subscribing to conservative Christian sexual ethics, I don’t think we can have a productive conversation.
How then to account for those who have a positive experience polygamy in your system? The problem with experience is that it makes us the final authority. There are many people with experiences that I’m sure we’d both agree cannot be the basis for sexual ethics, though in your proposed system you’d have to accept. The problem with reason is that we can justify nearly anything we want. “Nobody was hurt.” “I enjoyed it.”
That is why healthy dialogue about morality involves the discussion of many people’s thoughts and experiences, not the imposition of one person’s like at Mars Hill.
Generally though, the dialog ceases when you join the group where it isn’t a dialog, as was the case in this instance. That changes the whole conversation.
Which is a good reason to not join those groups.
And being a blind, unthinking slave to an ancient book can’t justify anything you want? Oh please. If you think you have god in your side, anything is possible. Look at the history of Christianity. Look at the simple fact that there are 18000 different Christian sects, most of whom consider themselves mutually exclusive
I want to amend my comment about the libel case issue. Andrew, if you can stand it, you should talk to a lawyer about the libel/defamation of character/suing for therapy costs issue as soon as you possibly can. At a minimum, you need to find out ASAP what the statute of limitations for cases like this is in your state. I lost the chance to file a human rights claim against a university that flagrantly discriminated against me based on a disability (forcing me to graduate a semester later than I planned) because the time limit was only a year after the main act of discrimination happened, so bear in mind that you may not have a very long time frame to work with.
Also, Andrew, when you’re thinking about how much to ask for in damages, keep in mind that situations like this can have mental health repercussions that last for years and cost tens of thousands of dollars to treat. That’s not an exaggeration. Just one weekly therapy session at a cost of $100/week, which is pretty typical, can get you to $10k in two years. If you need medication, or if you can’t work for any period of time due to mental health issues, or such issues lead to your having trouble getting good health insurance due to having a pre-existing condition, your costs will multiply further. You’ll want to factor in any financial losses you’ve incurred as a result of calling off the wedding as well. Don’t be too merciful to Mars Hill here.
if you are questioning whether or not this is a cult or not. You should read this site http://www.cultwatch.com/HowPastorsGetRich.html
http://www.cultwatch.com/HowPastorsGetRich.html
[…] context and totally ignore how Jesus’ behavior can inform us about his teaching. I thought this comment hit the nail on the head: So in Matthew 18, Jesus tells us to treat those under church discipline […]
This is a cult, not a church!
“Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.” Hebrews 13:17″
Uh oh, Doug. You have a problem. There is another verse where Jesus says, Don’t be like the Gentiles who love to lord it over people. So when that verse in Hebrews is used to shame people, you are doing exactly the opposite of what Jesus taught.
You may want to study the Greek in context in Hebrews 13:17 if you really want to understand it. The translators, working under a state church mentality, took liberty with the range of Greek word meanings to make this about following man. The reality of it is more like Listen to your leaders and let them persuade you…….
seriously, check each Greek word in that verse and compare the translation of each word in other parts of the bible and koine Greek. You might be surprised. And if we are to “obey” church leaders, then how come every single Epistle was not written to only the elders? How come they are not even mentioned by name in every single Epistle? After all, everyone in each church was to “obey” them, right?.
Andrew,You are loved and prayed for by others who actually care for you. I have never met you but my heart goes out to you.
Matthew, How do we react to this? What can we do to admonish Driscoll. I believe that his “theology” and actions are getting to the point of really hurting people and being dangerous.
I frankly see no difference between the information extracted via this Mars Hell “discipline contract” and the counseling (“auditing”) records kept by the “church” of $cientology. Especially since the “discipline contract” indicates nowhere upon (among many, many, many red flags) what kind of confidentiality would surround the information surrendered as a result of bullet six. I also see no difference between the posting on the Mars Hell internal “City” site and $cientology’s “disconnection letters” and “suppressive person declares.” However, since I no longer go to any church, Mark Driscoll and his clones are not my problem. But I am here to point out that it sure does seem like that Driscoll has been sitting at the feet of L. Ron Hubbard, not Jesus.
For those of you who defend church discipline, I’d point out that unless the consequences of forbidden actions are spelled out very clearly (and no, Matthew 18 or Corinthians is not “clearly” to me, a former lawyer), you’re going to have very unhappy people even if the discipline is called for. If you’re going to do discipline, it has to be in writing and applied equally to everyone. What Driscoll and his clones are doing here is putting people underneath cultic bondage. There’s no way to tell when the repentance period would be up, or how Andrew would know when he’s free to request being restored to membership. One does not need to be a Christian to see the chains being dragged out.
As others have pointed out, Jesus treated tax collectors with graciousness and accepted their hospitality. What Driscoll and Mars Hell are doing here is the total opposite. It’s this kind of nonsense that reminds me why being involved in a church is such a dicey proposition. At least at my evil, secular employer, we have policies and an employee handbook. Mars Hell has whatever Mark Driscoll feels like on a day-to-day basis, which is a heck of a way to run a church.
“Mars Hell” not sure if that’s a typo but it sure seems to fit well in this scenario.
For what it’s worth, I’m a member of Mars Hill and have never, EVER seen anyone treated in the way described in this article. I’m not quite clear about who that letter was supposedly sent to, but I’m a member of the Ballard City group and definitely never received it. I know people who have a problem with Mark and Mars Hill, and I respect their opinions, but I haven’t seen anything at MH that differs significantly from other large non-denominational churches I’ve attended. Just wanted to say that what’s described here is not my experience or the experience of anyone I know–and I know people who have struggled with some pretty heavy stuff while attending Mars Hill. Again … just my 2 cents! 🙂
Kristen
As a member of Mars HIll, you have a responsibility to look into this situation and to stand up to those who would do such a thing. You can’t get away with sticking you head in the sand and saying”I don’t see anything.” You are a member of a body of people who appear to have abused a brother. What will you do?
Honestly? I’d need more than an anonymous report involving an anonymous pastor and a letter sans letterhead–supposedly posted on an online network I have access to and can find no record of–to feel obligated to “look into the situation.” I’m weighing this report against years of personal experience. As I said, I respect those who want to criticize Mark/Mars Hill, but I think such criticism needs to be backed up with fact. And furthermore, how can anything in this report possibly be addressed with leadership if the victim isn’t willing to name names?
When the brain washing is this deeply implanted, not even video of MHC sacrificing children on an altar would change her opinion. Her foundation will not be shaken because she will ignore anything anything that might shatter her security.
Naming names wont change a thing for you. Its just a hoop for the victim to jump through so that you can feel better about ignoring his pain and you can go back to feeling good about your volunteering in the children’s department on Sundays.
Question: What would it take for you to be convinced that this report is erroneous? Judging frlm your inflammatory language, you clearly assume the worst of MH. I searched the online forum where this letter was supposedly posted, and it doesn’t exist. I get emails when new posts are made, and I never received one regarding this or ANY similar situation. I’m just looking for some evidence where I don’t see any. It seems like you’re a lot more “brainwashed” than I am when it comes to questioning pre-conceived notions.
The letter is real, Kristen. Go ahead and question the he-said-he-said details if you must, but the letters/documents are real.
Can you provide a screen capture of the letter posted on the City or a scan of the contract on letterhead? If they’re real, they’ve obviously been reproduced, and if the letter was posted on the City, I should have received an email or be able to access it online. I’m curious because as a member, I receive a lot of communication from MH, and setting aside the terrible and abusive theology, something about the narrative is just really off from typical verbiage in MH stuff. MH is also pretty nerdy when it comes to design, and They use their letterhead for everything. If these documents are real, that’s a huge problem for me. I just need more evidence, because the details aren’t adding up right now.
The contract is on letterhead. At least, the “M” logo is at the top.
That’s clip art that anyone could have thrown on. The letterhead MH uses is a top-and-bottom of the page format. I’ve never seen any communication from the church that looks like the documents you posted. Is that the unaltered document Andrew provided to you? If so, it’s pretty clearly not authentic.
Kristen, I understand why you want the documents to be fake. Honestly, I would love for them to be fake, too. Because I’d never want to falsely accuse any church of writing a letter like that to its members. I can’t “prove” that the “letter” is real without revealing my source, and I can’t do that. If somebody at the church wants to challenge the authenticity of the information presented in these letters, I’ll be happy to listen. So far, that hasn’t happened. But again, I do understand your passion and value/respect your decision to believe they are fake.
The church should be a place that helps you on your journey and not be the sole purpose of your journey.
(Computer won’t allow me to reply to your comment below–sorry!)
I “want the documents to be fake” in the same wy you do–in the sense that no one should be treated in this manner. But like you (I trust), I’m most interested in the veracity of such a serious accusation. If it’s true, I want to know it. And I’m saying that the empirical evidence, including the documents you’ve provided, the social network where the letter was supposedly posted, and my own experience with the way MH works, just doesn’t add up. It doesn’t matter how you or I feel about MH. If something is true, it’s true. And I don’t think you’ve provided evidence to indicate it is.
I don’t quite understand how posting more info would reveal your source–it’s pretty easy to black out names. You say MH hasn’t contacted you–did you contact them for comment before posting this?
If you can provide more substantive information, I hope you do. If you know that some of this account is false, or if you find out later that it is, I hope you have the integrity to say so publicly. It’s fine for us to disagree on MH, but I think we can agree that truthfulness is a virtue, particularly when accusations like this are being leveled. I wish you all the best!
There is another account here of very similar behaviour by Mars Hill towards a couple who merely disagreed with some of what they saw going on and tried to leave.
Why do you think it is that so many ex-Mars Hill members have described being abused by the church? It’s not just Andrew. Google “Mars Hill spiritual abuse” and you’ll find a whole slew of other people’s stories.
You posted this comment several hours after Matthew Paul Turner’s post with the letter, and over a day after MPT’s first post about the issue went up. At the point when you were probably looking for the letter, the news about Andrew’s case had already been quite widely distributed. There was more than enough time between when the story broke and when you first commented for Mars Hill to find out what’s going on, pull the letter from their site–and maybe even send you on over here to say the letter was never there in the first place.
I get emails when new items are posted, so I should have received an email about this. But I didn’t. But your conspiracy theory made me laugh, so thanks for that 🙂
Another question for you. How long have you been a member at Mars Hill? How deeply are you involved? And in your experience, what has happened to people you knew who tried to leave?
They want this poor guy to detail his sexual transgressions?? Sounds icky. Why don’t they just go buy a Playboy if they’re so desperate for a little titillation?
Now THIS I don’t care for. My initial reaction is disgust and so I seem to be in good company there and I imagine it is mostly an emotional response. What I’m more interested in, however, is someone actually taking what they’ve said and countering it point by point. Anyone willing to go there?
I do know from reading this, that I’ll share my perspective that might help. But I would like to write this out.
[…] Go read it. Part 1. Part 2. […]
What a bunch of sickos.
It sounds like Andrew wants to have the quick fix of confession and it is all ok, but not do the leg work of rebuilding, and redeeming trust with the people that he purposely decieved.Clearly based on the letter of church disciple and then the letter to members there is more to this story than Andrew is telling.
Going through at least a month of endless meetings hardly sounds like a “quick fix of confession” without doing any legwork. There may be more to the story, but I think that includes questionable leadership decisions too.
It says he then confessed more… note that “stuff” isn’t listed here. My guess is the other stuff he confessed was enough to make the elders and leadership take this moreseriously than an oops I cheated on my fiance.New habits take more than a month, and for the people who have been lied to and decieved it takes a lot longer than one month for every thing to be ok.
Yes there is forgiveness, but you don’t just put the forgiveness bandaid on it, smile and pretend that everything is ok.
Wow. Your devotion to a single congregation is stunning: You can’t even criticize ONE SINGLE THING THAT THEY DO.
uhm I don’t to to MH. I am saying there is more to Andrew’s story.
*go to
And most on here are quick to think the worst of the “church” system and the best of someone whose telling the story.
That’s a cop-out. There’s a difference between there being “another side” to the story with a truly questionable incident, and an incident where there is clear right and wrong. Sometimes there is truly one side to a story. Sometimes a person truly does an evil thing and they have no excuse – this is what Pastor X did.
Did you even read the article, Kelly? He was the one who initiated the conversations in the first place.
No not a cop-out. My experience from years of dealing with someone who felt guilty so confessed just enough to make him look repentant, only to be caught in more lies an deception later (then confessed more sin). This sounds very similar. Maybe not, but I can usually spot this kind of thing from a mile away and am right 98% of the time.Yes I did read the article, which leads me to believe there are half truths being told. What I said above, he felt guilty, confessed only enough to make himself feel better then got mad when told that it is going to take more than one month to rebuild trust.
My guess is he goes right back to sinning in a relatively short amount of time.
MH has never been accused of doing the popular thing.
My only hope in this comment was to point out that there is clearly more to it than what Andrew is saying.
This sounds very similar. Maybe not, but I can usually spot this kind of thing from a mile away and am right 98% of the time.
You want me to take you at your word on this, and in the very next breath…
Yes I did read the article, which leads me to believe there are half truths being told.
You admit that you don’t take Andrew at his.
Do you recognize the inconsistency in what you’re doing here? I don’t think it’s intentional, but it’s there.
Someone who willingly goes to a month’s worth of meetings to learn how he needs to repent is not someone who’s attempting to fleece leadership. Someone who willingly confesses to sexual sin before being caught in the act isn’t someone who deserves to be excommunicated.
I agree that we don’t have all the facts, but we do have a lot of them, and we have facts from both sides.
It does not appear to me that you’ve acknowledged that we actually have facts on the MH side of it.
I don’t attend MHC, so I don’t feel compelled to protect it. MPT told his biased perspective of not his own story. While there may be so-called facts about the situation available, we don’t have any firsthand accounts from church leadership or the victim. To so quickly, confidently, and emphatically condemn one side or the other seems ignorant to me. Why fight to the death about how awful MHC and MD are when we don’t know the full truth behind the situation?
The discipline contract directly from Pastor X, the email correspondence from Pastor X, and the public letter from Mars Hill don’t count as “first hand”?
In your opinion, what would?
A blog entry written by Andrew and a blog entry written by Mark Driscoll or one of his delegates.
Otherwise, it’s hearsay and the truth can be found somewhere in the middle. We are all guilty of exaggerating our position, even slightly, to win people to our side. If in fact everything MPT conveys here is absolute unbiased truth with a fair account of the church’s role in this, judge away. But that’s not at all what we have here. Why take everything MPT wrote here as gospel (no pun intended)? Easy to take a stance when it reinforces our own stance and agenda. There are always three sides to each story…Person A’s, Person B’s, and the truth.
Regardless of what or how it happened, there is obviously miscommunication, frustration, severed relationships, and sadness that has resulted from this fiasco. That’s the worst part about it all. Not who was right or who should be sued or how awful or sinful people involved are. The negativity and anger written here by people who know little about the situation at hand is unproductive.
hmm interesting.. a pastor asking someone to WRITE DOWN a LIST of “sins” is totally out of line. JESUS is our mediator..not Mark Driscoll or any other pastor, deacon, or elder for that matter. Matthew 18 says that if ONE sins against another..confess. Andrew did that. imo…it should have ended at that.
I wonder..is Mark Driscoll and his team of “leaders” willing to write down all their secret sins too? and make them public?
As a long-time elder in a conservative, reformed church, I have had my share of shepherding issues with people having challenges in their lives. Doctrine is one thing, love and grace is another. Maybe Mars Hill should read up on the church of This story is sad because it happened to Andrew and sad because it shows a deep flaw within the body life of Mars Hill. According the to story, this was a case of shepherding, not discipline. Spiritual bullies like discipline, true shepherds love their sheep.
What modern day Pharisees don’t understand about Grace is that we (believers) are no longer under the law and are truly free. When the church leaders try to make “new” law in clever and attractive forms, they are not trusting in the work of the Spirit instead want to be God’s not-so-secret police in people’s lives. Why? It reinforces their continued bondage to their own law of ‘do not handle, do not touch’ which imparts false holiness but has no power against the flesh.
Understanding grace and forgiveness (the true gospel) leads people to live by the Spirit that is in their hearts. Their deeds will follow their heart but not always on this side of death. The Mars Hill’s leadership lack of understanding of a person’s weakness and lack of grace when they fall shows how much they do not understand the Gospel. Shame on them.
Good stuff Tony! Well said.
Man I wish I could I say I was appalled, well I am. But I’ve had friends who have walked down this same exact road. So many comments from Andrew about what was said to him is to a T things said to my friends for less harsh “offenses” than admitted by Andrew. It makes me so angry, the name of Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill Church makes my blood boil.
I wish I could have grace and compassion for this church, but I just can’t. The hurt they are causing, the lies they are perpetrating and the men and women they are leading astray is mind boggling.
Andrew my prayers are with you as you walk the road of recovering from this experience. And my prayers are with every single person still caught up in this cult and being led to believe that the God MD is preaching is the real loving God we actually serve…..
“The Roman Catholic Church of the Dark Ages” was at least abusing the power that was rightly theirs (rather, ours, since we were ‘all’ Catholics back then). Excommunication coming from a pseudo-papacy is comical.
Misusing the Pulpit to Silence Members – Driscoll in his own words:http://www.youtube.com/user/ReallySad1?feature=watch
Really sad.
It doesn’t matter what ‘sin’ Andrew committed. The fact that Mars Hill has a confessional contract is absurd. It is the practice of a cult. What legitimate church keeps a record of the detailed sins of its members?
Why must Mars Hill impose contractual discipline on its members, and the release their sins to the commumity if they refuse?
Cult.
They’re not the only church, by far, that does this (although it seems to be limited to Reformed churches).
Matthew and Andrew,
Thank you so much for making this public. Andrew you are clearly a brave, amazing fellow. I salute and applaud you. I suspect it took a lot of courage for you to make this public. Way to go. You are exposing an abusive system, and both providing succor and relief to others who have experienced this abuse, by exposing the perpetrators, and helping warn off future victims. way to go!
Benjamin
Public shaming is so devastating to a soul but its true purpose to to control those who remain, not to restore the one who has fallen down.
Bull Sh$$!! Who are you without sin, to throw the first stone? Public shaming, my a$$ !!
Pastor Bill Langill wasn’t condoning public shaming, Wendy, he was criticizing it just like you are.
Yeah, I don’t get Wendy’s response to this comment. It’s rather astute, if you ask me.
I love how much scripture you used in your argument against all of this.
I can’t say I agree with ALL of it, but I can say this:
1. If you don’t like their rules…don’t become a member.
2. At least they have a biblical bases for what is poor theology in your opinion.
3. A little discipline might turn America in a better direction.
I understand point 1(even though it sounds like the rules weren’t clearly laid out when Andrew became a member), and I don’t really want to get into point 3 right now, but as for point two. . . saying they have a biblical basis doesn’t really mean much. I can have a biblical basis for just about anything.
For example:
Do not suffer a witch to live.
Exodus 22:18
Guess those witch trials has biblical basis then!
1. One may know Christian values and join a church and stumble. When I come into a church and look to join, I don’t look for the values and “rules”. I look for a place where I can grow, stumble, and find grace. One would think with reformed theology, grace would be shown since it is a big deal in reform theology.2. anyone can use scripture in a proverbial way and come up with bad theology. Bad theology hurts people and doesn’t reflect God–because it is bad God (theo) study (ology). And as you point out everyone can quote Scripture—coming at that scripture from a different point of view or theology and you find we all disagree.
3. What this church has done is not discipline. How do you justify so many people involved? How do you justify so much control of his time, a contract to control everything about him, and a letter telling people to disassociate socially from him? Alcohol addiction groups and drug addiction groups do not have contracts which are so controlling. And they offer the option to call someone when you are feeling like taking another hit. What this church did is not discipline, it is control and shame. And Christian discipline is not about those things.
# 1… really? I wonder how open the leadership is on how they handle these situations BEFORE a person becomes a member? Will they really tell potential members that this is how they run things? Or is this secret knowledge for the hierarchy only?
At one point in Mars Hill’s history, there was some semblance of accountability. MD preached from the pulpit that he was accountable to the counsel of elders who each had one vote, the same as he did, and who had the power to discipline or fire him if need be. It was reassuring to many newcomers who had left authoritarian/abusive churches and found themselves at Mars Hill. This pastor seemed different. He was self-deprecating, humorous, sharp-witted, and knew the Bible. He was rumoured to have a photographic memory and did not use notes when preaching his sermons – which were not boring. And, he was completely accountable to what appeared to be a group of seasoned, godly men. Or so that was how things appeared then.
A few years later, things changed. The numbers coming through the doors had grown by thousands, and the church coffers by $millions. MD decided that the bylaws needed to be rewritten to “streamline” decision-making and he demanded that they be unanimously approved by the then existing elders. The new bylaws would strip the elders of their vote, completely restructure the church governmental structure, and essentially make MD autonomous over the Mars Hill empire, answerable to no one, but with a public facade of accountability by still retaining “elders” who had no real legal authority. The new bylaws were passed. The history is well-documented online. Today, all the mischief the world is witnessing is the result of no accountability whatsoever – not to any elders, and not to members (Mars Hill “members” have no vote or say whatsoever in church government, except to “vote” with their feet or pocketbooks, and yet by virtue of the fact that they signed a members agreement are subject to arbitrary church “discipline” and waive their rights to seek redress in a court of law).
Excerpt from a University of Washington student’s editorial:
___________________________________________________________________
Mars Hill Bylaws
In September of last year Mars Hill fired one pastor and placed another on probation. At the time the church was in the process of rewriting the church bylaws. According to Mark Driscoll, these two men “curiously were among the least administratively gifted for that task, and chose to fight in a sinful manner in an effort to defend their power and retain legal control of the entire church.” In a sermon shortly after, he also talked about the men: “There are a few guys right now, if I wasn’t going to end up on CNN, I would go Old Testament on ’em. There’s no, like, attorneys and blogging, just like I punched you in the mouth, now shut up. That’s clean; it’s simple.”
Here is a discussion of the bylaws point by point from a legal perspective:
http://prayingheart.wordpress.com/2008/01/18/lets-discuss-the-new-by-laws-of-mars-hill-church
The author provides a summary of what the bylaws do:
*The full council of elders has been reduced to only 5 ruling elders.
*These Ruling 5 are self-appointed and serve for life without effective accountability.
*There is no effective oversight of Mark since he serves as his own supervisor on the Ruling 5.
*These by-laws were voted in by the former full council of elders thus revealing the inability of these men to critically read, voice any comments, or express any substantive opinion.
*Since a quorum is only 50%, effectively only 3 Ruling elders govern the church. These Ruling 5 may only be supervised by those whom they hand pick, as they also control the slate of those who may be appointed.
*No scriptural basis is necessary to discipline any member of the Mars Hill body.
*There remains no protection and no recourse for any member so disciplined, as has already been demonstrated when our very leaders have been subjected to having their character inpugned in public.
My personal favorite quote from the bylaws:
“Please respect the sensitive nature of a document like this and do not distribute it outside of the membership. There is nothing to hide, but our intent is to answer the questions of our members only, and not take the massive number of hours that would be required to also answer the questions regarding our legal governance to people for whom Mars Hill Church is not home.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zm1vzM2FAc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6mmTXVTil8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kayRXtITyw&feature=related
I don’t think I need to go into some of the serious issues with this form of church governance. Secrecy, unquestioned authority, unchecked power…
_________________________________________________________________
Source: http://students.washington.edu/secular/tag/mars-hill/
MH is a cult. Like all other cults, they don’t explain all the rules until you’re deep, deep into it. When it’s too late to simply walk away.
Holy schmolly!! This is the first time I have ever read your blog! I understand where you all are coming from, but I am a very happy catholic girl. Yes I said catholic and I am here reading your blog. I have to say friends, the last time I confessed my sins to our friar,, the most I got was 10 hail mary’s and 10 our fathers. Oh, and I was ASKED to come back next week to discuss with the friar at least 3 actions I could take to change my behavior that would not only make it easier for me to accept Christ love and grace, but help me find ways to make my journey in walking with our savior joyful. And believe me, my sin. Was much,much worse than Andrew could even have thought of, let alone participated in.Andrew, if you are reading this, I want you to know that Jesus FORGAVE your sins, the very moment you confessed them. The very instant! You do not have to prove your repentance by any act, Jesus knows your heart, he knew before you did that you had repented. Go and sin no more my friend. The repentance we put our selves through is not to be judged by anyone. It is between us and Christ. You may think that strange that I go to the Friar, but I personally need his assistance in finding my way on the path. No, I am not required to go through any specific ritual, but if it helps me, it’s available,. And saying hail Mary’s? Well Jesus love his mother , and if he loved his mother more than I know men love their mother, it can only help not hurt in asking her intercession on my behalf! I mean, what guy can refuse his mother’s requests! So Andrew, come on over! All is good with you that the only ONE who matters! Let your heart be light. It was a harsh lesson to learn, but we need only look to the hear of Christ, not the heart of men, for we are human, flawed, and get by on grace alone. Peace be with you my brother in Christ. Wendy
[…] Part 2 of the story of Andrew, a former Mars Hill Church member who was placed under church discipline, is now up at Matthew Paul Turner’s blog. Posted by BrianD at 2:05 PM […]
Matthew – Thank you for caring for our brother and friend. You are providing great healing and hope!Andrew, I can imagine and empathize with what you are feeling and going through right now. In 2004, I was spiritually abused by a church (not Mars Hill). It shattered me, and I was left broken, without a church or friends, and experiencing PTSD. I was left with so many doubts, fears, questions, frustrations, anger, etc. It wasn’t just an emotional issue, but was spiritual, and I needed spiritual care.
There are few counselors and church leaders that will understand the impact this may have on you. I hope and pray the Lord protects and heals you and you don’t have to walk through the tough journey I have faced. I pray you find Godly people who know how and are committed to loving you and standing with you through this. After finding some healing I moved from Seattle to Portland for a new start, however I was still deeply impacted by all that happened. I joined a church with a nationally known leader who had served with one of the top known Christian leaders in America, thinking that gave him experience and credibility. However, he didn’t know how to provide spiritual care for someone who was hurting and broken, and instead he committed spiritual malpractice using his professional role as a pastor in an ignorant and negligent way that caused injury and loss. I fell into depression and anxiety, asking for help, but instead was told that the struggles I was facing were a clear sign that I didn’t fear and trust the Lord, and my asking for Biblical and spiritual leadership was disagreement with the pastors guidance in the church, so I was labeled as rebellious and unsubmissive. In May 2009, I was sent an email, removing me from the church and forbidding me from further contact. I have tried for 2-1/2 years to find release, forgiveness, restoration, and reconciliation, even involving a seminary leader named here that works with Mark Driscoll. To date, I have been told by the pastor that I am released of the charge but he will not have further contact with me. No one else will communicate or fellowship with me, or even tell me I am forgiven. I have asked this church and other leaders to be restored to the Body and while I have been granted permission to attend services, I still have not been allowed into full community, service, and rights as a true member of the Body and welcomed back into the family.
It would be very, very easy to be bitter, angry, and vengeful about what has happened, but the one that would really be hurt by that is me. Right now, you face that same choice. I believe in church discipline, if it is done Biblically, calling someone to repentance through lovingkindness and pointing to the cross. I am a PK (pastor’s kid) and know that church leadership is hard. There are different sides to every story. I believe you are repentant. I believe Mars Hill has done what they think is best. I believe that the people posting here have tried to offer support, viewpoints, counsel, and to share their own processing of the situation.
What I care about most right now is your heart and soul. You need to heal. You need to be restored. You need love, care, grace, and hope. So do the two ladies involved, your care group, the church leaders, and everyone else involved. We can offer all sorts of viewpoints, advice, and spew venom about what has happened, but what will bring God glory? What will set you on the right path to heal? What will bring this to release, reconciliation, and freedom?
Please, search your heart and do everything you need to do each moment to get and stay right with God. Don’t let your anger, pain, or emotional hemorrhaging cause you to walk in bitterness, rage, and disunity with others. Seek righteousness, holiness, peace, joy, and hope. Pray for the others, and keep praying until your heart changes and you truly desire the best for them. This is where the Gospel becomes very real. You are bearing your cross, taking it up, and walking with it to follow Christ. You checked your heart before letting this story be told. Continue to check it, and guard it tightly, being sure to take counsel from those who want you to walk in Godly and righteous ways. Study God’s character and your identity, and these will be attacked, as will your mind.
If you want to speak to someone who has been through this journey, and who intimately knows the battles the enemy can use to bring you down, know that I would love to share with you. You can reach me at restoringtheheart at gmail. I am and will continue to be praying for you. Lord, please heal and strengthen Andrew quickly and completely.
This story is really sad. Hoping Andrew has a wonderful professional Christian counselor and wise friends. That whole process sounds incredibly exhausting. Are any of those pastoral counselors licensed professionals? Someone there has to know this is not healthy, on some level.
And to be silly, I doubt the early church had a bunch of literate followers who wrote out people’s sins and signed contracts of repentance. That whole concept is not necessary to be a New Testament church, a la Acts 29. Posting online is in bad taste. Who’s going to confess stuff now?
Wishing Andrew good spiritual and emotional health.
perhaps the saddest part of this is that this will also make it difficult for churches to discipline people in cases where discipline is actually necessary and intended to be restorative. they can now cite mars hill as a perfect example of church discipline run amok, and use it to angrily reject any attempt at good and loving correction. everyone loses…
http://peterwchin.wordpress.com
I’ve just spent over an hour reading these posts and the comments, and while the writing down of sexual details and public shunning is totally cuckoo-pants, all I can think about is the girl.
I know we’re not meant to know her story, but I imagine she is HORRIFIED at this turn of events. The entire 10,000-person congregation (and now further) knows about her sexual history, including activity that she probably would have happily continued had her boyfriend not cheated on her. There is nothing that makes this okay.
On top of the fact that she’s lost a great love whom she thought was to be her husband (presumably, unless she sided with Andrew after excommunication, which I doubt given Driscoll’s recent comments about his wife’s pre-marital infidelity). Any future dating experience she may have will be so much more damaged by the handling of this than by any past sexual sin.
I’m sure her heart is broken into a million pieces.
Hello Laura, I think your comment is sensitive to the humiliation and emotions of the most unfortunate and probably quite wretched young woman.
But she is far more a victim of her step-father and the other church authorities and of Driscoll’s megalomania than Andrew’s screw-up for which he was truly repentant, and clearly he loved this young woman very dearly — his naivety with the control freaks surrounding him at Mars HIll led him to ask for forgiveness when in fact he should have kept the sorry tale to himself, if for no other reason that to protect his sweetheart. But he was naive and inexperienced and wanted to be “pure” again in his heart, and sometimes it is less selfish and more prudent to recognise the potential consequences of “going public” with a bombshell.
The pretty predictable reaction from the church shows us what goes wrong when men (i.e preachers/pastors etc.) presume to tell us what is the “will of god”. It appears that God’s will is no more than their own screwed up human notions of control and power. A truly loving God does not demand people act as this pastor demands of his flock, … and truly they are pretty gullible “sheep”. Sad indeed.
He could have (perhaps more maturely) chosen to live with his regrets, and to make up for it by re-doubling his own psychological and emotional commitment to his sweetheart, … nonetheless it is what it is, and sometimes in the end these ruptures turn out for the best for both parties in the long haul, but at the moment he is devastated, and his first true love, the girl, is probably overwhelmingly devastated.
First love however is seldom the one and only love nor the final love. Adolescence is very overwhelming … in times gone by people were matched up young in a rural society and often led unhappy lives together as a consequence. Or blissful. On the other hand we see so-called Christians like Mr. Newt Gingrich who discards wives with apparent impunity whenever the wife shows any hint of sickness or problem.
The sad thing in this case is that she, the outed “co-sinner” is probably without any truly sincere support system now, and she is bewildered how to get out of a situation where she has been biblically “stoned” in the moral sense by the entire church which has been such a huge part of her young life.
But in reality she had no “guilt” that she should have to feel or bear whatsoever.! She loved the young man, and in all innocence, and from her own true heart. But the church JUDGED her and in essence ostracized her just as much as Andrew. This is what the real wickedness of MARS HILL is all about.
There is a possible way out for her, and that is to leave the church herself, and possibly her family as well if that’s what it takes to pick up and make a new life.
Beyond the suffocating and punitive space of her church, she lives in a post-modern world after all, where women have rights and a value equal in all respects to men, and who are nowadays recognised to be their equals intellectually and in every other way that counts. Women are going to run this planet and do it better than the guys have done all these thousands of years to date! Its only a matter of time …. And both men and women will be just as happy if not happier for it.
The feminists have changed the world for the better, but MARS Hill is mired in an ancient misogyny which denigrates the worth and dignity of women.
Hopefully some close friend from outside the congregation will help her to make a break, and to get on with her education, and get a life beyond all that closeted hatefulness and hypocrisy. But the psychological damage was a process of religious abuse that began years and years ago, and it will take time to heal, if ever.
But women are often impressively resilient, so lets hope that she rises above all of this totally unnecessary tragedy and goes on to a great life after all! I think she has the full support of all fair minded commentators here, although some comments are a bit on the moralistic holier than everyone else side.
They say men are from MARS and women from VENUS. If they could possibly just meet half-way, on earth, without being so judgemental about their differences …. and stay far away from MARS HILL congregations. Eewwww … people like that…. they are so disgusting, and downright horrid….
Good luck to the young woman, who is without sin, as she is pure of heart and THEY are NOT! May THEY come to know the true sin in their own stony hard and merciless hearts.
Matthew, Although I do not agree with the methods used I would ask how you are building up the Kingdom of God and establishing his church?I think Andrew needs to be encouraged and supported but aiding someones thorn of bitterness and building it up in others is not anything near what Christ would do.
I would expect as a blogger/some sort of journalist that you would have sought to at least include a response from the individuals involved in this process on the church’s leadership side of things….
Andrew, I am sorry that you were ostracized – that is not what Christ would have wanted. I hope that you are able to look past the sins of man and find the truth that was meant to be conveyed. I believe that despite the very inappropriate methods and the out of control result it was originally meant to support and bless you and I am sure that at least one person in that long list of people you meant with regrets the result – NOT because you are an “unbeliever” or because you were not brought under control but because they understand that RELATIONSHIP is the purpose God built us for. And this although a result of many wrongs is not God’s desired result.
I pray that you will find a way to not let this injustice become a root of bitterness in your life.
I struggle personally against injustices and unkindness’s done to me becoming a way for Satan to separate me from my relationship with God and with others.
As hard as it is the right thing is to seek restoration of your mind & heart through the support of other believers but to not allow what you are going through taint or fuel the fire for others.
katie, shining a light on the misdeeds of a cult leader like driscoll is the right thing to do. i thought mpt was far too kind. the actions of mh in this situation are the actions of a cult, and no defense whatsoever can ever be made for requiring a list of written confessions to another human for the forgiveness of sins and right-standing in a community.
sometimes, you must stand up to bullies like driscoll. it’s never pleasant, but even jesus made a whip of cords and went into the temple when the situation warranted.
Katie…The Church at large is confronting Driscoll publicly.. I’d say this is quite biblical of Matthew Paul Turner to do on behalf of all the victims of Mars Hill’s abusive tactics.
Wow! I think I read all of the comments and did not notice anyone referencing the story of the “Prodigal Son”. Read what the son did, then his repentance (change of mind and return to the father) and then recall the response of the Father. A feast! And then take notice of the response of the “brother”. I don’t want to preach the sermon because I trust it is obvious…… and to those of you defending MH with “hearing both sides of the story”….unless the letters are fraudulent, further investigation may be warranted in helping Andrew, but defending this process says more about each of you than this process….
…I was a detective for a couple decades (recently retired) and have seen some of Driscoll’s antics and self-declarative representations…My hope is that “he will repent”, but I admit wondering about the people “in leadership” that surround him. I see his “tough guy act” and can’t help but wonder how he would make out amongst a group of cops or military men that go out and “do it” instead of talking about it….
…I suspect I could go on but will rather act by contacting people like John Piper and Tim Keller to see their responses to Mr.Driscoll…I’ve benefitted from Keller and Piper but have wondwered what they were doing associating themselves with Mr. Driscoll (perhaps they didn’t know so I will await their responses….|)
…you’ve received good advice regarding getting legal advice….
…..these were the kind of investigations that used to keep me up at night despite all the advice to “not take my job home”
….keep your focus on Jesus Andrew…he was fully human and therefore knew and knows what this sort of thing feels like…as a man….rest in Him…he truly understands because “He’s been there”…..
In His love, your brother
My heart goes out to Andrew. As a member of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, I was similarly shunned for “sexual misconduct” — which I had confessed to the congregation elders. As a result, my friends and family now refuse to greet me on the street. It has been painful at times. Then I remember the self-righteousness and hypocrisy I witnessed and even had to participate in for my own survival and i’m glad to be away from all that. Although I once believed everything the Watchtower had to say, now I see that returning that religion makes about as much sense as a dog returning to its vomit.
I’m saying this because I can relate to Andrew’s story. The scriptures the Mars Hillians used on Andrew, their language and their general attitude toward him are identical to my experience. It sucks. But then it gets better. It really does.
Whatever happened to Andrew’s fiancee? Did they smooth things over? If she joined in the shunning too, good riddance. Consider her a bullet dodged. Things could be worse. He might have ended up marrying the b*tch.
Oh, guess I should self-promote. I just wrote about Mars Hill Portland at http://blog.beliefnet.com/yearofsundays/2012/01/martians-for-jesus-invade.html
[…] Mark Driscoll’s Church Discipline Contract, part two […]
I hate religion. Love Jesus and my relationship with Him. Attend a church, but I hate religion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLta2b9zQ64
While reading some of these comments I’m taken back by how involved and personal some of the responses are, yet most of you don’t know the people involved at all. You’re comments remind me of the letters people send to People magazine commenting on the lives of the rich and famous like they actually know them. There may be a whole lot more to this story than what Matthew Paul Turner is telling you. Why does the whole world need to know about “Andrews” personal issues with Mars Hill church? Shouldn’t this be something they deal with together and not in the blogospere?He doesn’t have to go to Mars Hill.Let him wipe off the dust from his feet . . . He answers to God. But he just may be in the wrong too. How would we know ? None of us knows him! Be careful y’all.
Interesting how many Germans didn’t think it appropriate to publicly comment on the actions of the Reich!
Thats true. I don’t see the connection.
The story may be about “Andrew’s personal issues” but the “blogosphere discussion” is about Mars Hill which operates in the public domain and is a danger to all who might be uninformedly vulnerable to this entity and their twisting of the scriptures under the guidance of a charismatic leader and orator. Hitler did the same and the German church (at least in part) fokkowed him.
I think when MH went and publicly humiliated Andrew by publishing his personal history for 10,000+ members to view, they made it fair game for him to take the story to the outside world. I had no idea that stuff like this went on there and am personally horrified. It was good to learn about this abuse so that I can be wary of this organization and their pastors going forward.
Fredo Z, Andrew is my brother. I do know him. And he has admitted repeatedly that he was wrong. He was trying to do what it took to save his relationship. To get help and repent. But when they sent him the “contract” we begged him not to sign it. It was and is bullying. It needed to be exposed. Mark Driscoll is an evil man and his so called “christianity” is a joke. And when they posted the letter for the whole church to read we knew this was a story that needed told. How many others have been driven from Christ because of this church? Is that what church is supposed to be? The “involved and personal responses” are because people relate to bullying in the name of “christianity”. And a correct response to hearing such hatred should be indignation. It’s a shame that not everyone feels that same indignation. A damn shame..
I’m a friend of Andrews and I saw him through this whole ordeal. The onslaught of un-chrisitan behavior these people exhibited was nauseating. They call themselves Christians……its laughable. I remember the stories of the hoops he had to jump through with said girls step-father to date her. How hypocritical he was. I bet he was laughing after he spoke with Andrew and gave him a new hoop. Laughing because he was holding this string above his head Andrew could never hope to catch. Seeing all the ways this step-father tortured him was brutal. He was power hungry and wanted to lord over someone and Andrew was his target….and thats just a small part of this story.
I associate this “contract” with stoning. They may as well have. It was the same thing but with words. Im glad he decided to take the higher road and not give in to this bold faced bullying. Andrew is one of the most loving, caring, gentle people I have ever know. I cannot imagine a more undeserving person to bestow this kind of treatment to. I feel pity towards MHC because they truly believe they are doing the right thing. I hope no one ever has to endure this type of treatment again. I hope the truth is heard.
I know Andrew hasn’t lost God, he hasn’t turned away from him. He just turned away from a very unhealthy environment. Pray for Andrew to get through this and that he can find God in his own way.
This poor guy has been through the ringer. He should watch Rob Bell’s NOOMA videos – those things are pure tonic.
As a Canadian from B.C. who has been to Seattle on occasion, a wonderful city with many superb qualities, my heart goes out to the now broken up loving young couple, Andrew and his fiancee who BOTH have been hideously ABUSED by an evil fascist church organisation, MarsHill, and its cult psycho Mark Driscoll, an authoritarian deviant with highly ABNORMAL sexual obsessions if there ever was one, and his only too willing sadistic henchmen, a lot like the German high command under Herr Hitler.
If this organisation is a supposed witness for Christianity, then any sane person would want to run 500 miles in the opposite direction from that twisted-up belief system! Driscoll endorses beating your children into submission, which also means beating the creativity out of them, and had a vicious child beating guest pastor, whose book on biblical discipline led to children being killed by their own parents. The man is a homophobic raving zealot, no doubt concealing his own profoundly repressed male attraction problem and he is full of anger and hatred and MISOGYNY. Any talk about *love* coming out of the mouths of these pastors in his network, and community leaders is pure twisted hypocrisy. Run from this man and run from Mars HIll at top speed to save your precious humanity from these vultures who make human souls their carion! Parents who brain wash their beautiful and innocent young children into this whole cess-pool of christian guilt and sin psychology are ABUSING their kids, as they themselves were probably abused, as a lot of the testimony shows here.
I hope that Andrew’s fiancee finds the strength and courage and resolve to leave the church and possibly find him once again, but she is probably too damaged by the brainwashing she got from childhood onward and from the hideous control this blasphemous satanic cult has over her. He erred, unquestionably, but forgiveness on her part could lead them both to redemption, renewed happiness together, and also to freedom from these terrible people, who have been unspeakably cruel and uncivilised — Jesus would never have treated either one of them, not in a million years, as these ignorant BARBARIANS of Mars Hill have treated them. There is SHAME here, SHAME on DRISCOLL and MARS HILL. — SHAME for your unforgivable and UNCHRISTIAN actions, which I am sure are repeated over and over again.
Ok. So here is my story. I was involved with a really big church in Calgary and was leading a Bible Study.We had a strong group and met for a about 4 years. There was a couple in our group that decided that they would live together before they were married. Because of the culture of the church, I felt the best thing when I found out was to ask them to keep it quiet. Unfortunately, they decided to tell a friend, who unwittingly told a friend. That “friend” went to church leadership behind my back.
When I met with the leader, I was told that my role was to have them “move out”. If I could not do that, I would be asked to step down from leadership of the group. i decided to step down as leader, because I personally did not feel that my job was to move them anywhere, but patiently walk with them.
The sad thing was to watch the gossiper gain much respect and leadership in the group with no consequences to the actions. There was a real sense in my heart of some corruption at the time. I could just feel it. I personally fell into quite a depression.
Now that this happened a couple of years ago, and there has been recovery (mostly). I can share a perspective that can help I think.
1) It is understandable and not unreasonable for people to have a stand on any issue. For those who feel that what Andrew did was wrong, that is valid and I don’t think Andrew would argue. How Andrew was handled however is the issue. Someone caught in a “sin” does not authorize anyone to do whatever you want to them. They have a right to dignity.
2) I can imagine Pastor X was and is in a tough position. This is Pastor X job. He may have a family and it might be possible that he might not have agreed but could have been in a bind considering possible other issues.Also does Pastor X have experience in conflict resolution. Is he young? I’m not endorsing his actions, but he has done the best with what he knew at the time. Pray for reflection for him.
3) We have talked much about Andrew, a little about fiance, none about the “other girl.” But the deepest impact is there was not one, but now two groups involved with two leaders. This is where some serious damage and recovery also needs to happen. Unhealthy Discussion leads to discontent and division which leads to more damage. The leaders if not properly supported or equipped are in over their head. When you pray, please add them to that.
The bottom line is this was handled wrong. There have been comments that there has been more to the story, and my guess is there is. But there would be no justification on how this was handled.
I want to be clear. I’m not, repeat, not a Mark Driscoll supporter. I’m deeply concerned the amount of attention and respect he gets.His quotes, and actions have been going on for years, with no consequence to him. But, I’m sensing a change. It is no great coincidence that James Macdonald resigned from the Gospel Coalition with this story coming out. There was a couple of interview cancellations of his book. There clearly is some concerns about him.
Tomorrow at the Elephant Room 2, when he is on, I sincerely hope there is someone willing to challenge Driscolls actions and not sit back in admiration. And we as people express clearly that this is not acceptable with Scripture and Godly attitude.
It’s only a matter of time before the kool-aid comes out. If you have watched Jim Jones and many of the other cults, it is that kind of control that creates cult like behavior. Jim Jones did many of the same things to manipulate and keep members under his “care”. Unfortunately, many of us have experiences of churches who have twisted Christ’s message to elevate ego and exercise power over others. Please give Andrew my heartfelt sympathies and assure him that God is way bigger than any church or pastor. In time, he will rediscover community, this time with a much clearer vision.
So many people are naive and think “we’re not like Jim Jones, our pastor never asks us to drink poison” umm ya okay.. and he won’t..YET..that’s why understanding cult tactics is important so people can be aware and notice it in their churches. Any church/leadership that wants that much control is a church/leadership that lacks their own self control.
[…] I read Matthew Paul Turner’s recent posts (found here and here) about church discipline in VoldeMark’s church, though, I knew it was time to pick up my […]
Mmmm….dissension. If I remember correctly, Jesus’ last meeting with the disciples was a call to unity in love.
I’m not sure how the scathing comments in the post and in this comment section are achieving this.
jesus also reserved his harshest words for religious leaders who misled people. something about a millstone comes to mind…
Oh My God! I just read part two and gasped…out loud! I must have missed it when I commented on part one. I’ve got cold sweats right now. What a wicked way to “lead”. The amount of control and manipulation that was exhibited in that letter is frightening. Andrew, speaking from experience, I am glad you are free. As hard as it will be in the days, weeks, months ahead for you to watch people sacrifice you for their own fantasy, I’m confident from the little I’ve read that you and God will be just fine together. Again, if you or others read this comment and want help, let me know. I am working with a number of counselors in the Seattle area who specialize in helping people recover from institutional religious abuse. Some of them do distance counseling over Skype if anyone outside the Seattle area needs help. You can find me at botolff@gmail.com.
http://whenthechurchhurts.wordpress.com/2012/01/25/does-anyone-own-a-dsm-iv/
This is really a shame if it is true. I think Andrew and this young woman have a lot of talking to do. I would be one thing if Andrew was the ONLY who cheated on her that one night, (which is an offense in itself) but both him and the Elder’s daughter had be gettin it on from the START! That is just as bad as Andrew cheating on her, and it is hypocritical of Mars Hill not to deal with the woman in the same manner, even though their methods are not scriptural at ALL.
I really think this is happening to him because he ticked off the Elder’s daughter. I see no reason for this young man to be treated like this. True church discipline is all about repentance, not punitive punishment. They should be ASHAMED if this is true and they need to be exposed. I pray another person comes out and validates this man’s testimony so he may be taken seriously.
In the meanwhile I am praying for that Church.
“both him and the Elder’s daughter had be gettin it on from the START! That is just as bad as Andrew cheating on her”
Congratulations on proving my point about how telling people almost all sexual behaviour is wrong impairs their ability to figure out what sexual behaviour actually hurts people (and therefore should be avoided) and what sexual behaviour doesn’t (and is therefore a private matter between the people involved).
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Imagine if Mary, mother of Jesus, went to Mars Hill? Yeah… Mary would have had an abortion for fear of this letter.
The letters shared are scripture twisting, pure and simple. The person sharing was right to flee these people. He is welcome to worship with us down in San Diego.
At times, this letter comes off like the Roman Catholic church during the Dark Ages.
Possibly worse. I haven’t done the research to know, but if there’s any continuity with Confession as nowadays practiced, the RCC was probably at least relatively unintrusive and, well, the confessions were over sooner. Maybe not the penance, but at least us Romanists are upfront about that.
Once again we find ourselves as compassionate people who believe in healing and restoration grieving the actions of Mark Driscoll and the pastor/leaders at Mars Hill Church in Seattle. It is a fine line we walk here in examining this actions and making Godly decisions or reactions without judging. I do not find this article surprising nor is it the first time I have heard of such an action being taken by Mars Hill or its affiliate church plant Anchor in Wallingford. It grieves me yet I feel the caution not to judge but to pray for God to burst into this congregation and their leaders. I had to walk away and think and pray before I responded to what I could not resist to comment on. I felt the Lord guiding me to a picture of his very action in similar circumstances, the woman caught in adultery, John 8:1-11. It is a simple story, there is no indication that the woman was sorry or repentant. Yet the Lord challenged the actions of those who were about to carry out church discipline based on the Mosaic law given by God to guide the people, not the woman, the sinner. His reaction to the woman was “I do not condemn you, go and leave your life of sin.” This very statement reveals in its tenses that she perhaps had not yet repented and at that point was still walking in her sexual sin yet the Lord saved her and forgave her. I just challenge you to dwell on this scripture and ask the Lord how you should pray for Mars Hill and for Andrew and others who have been hurt by their version of church discipline. I know that had I been there and confronted with the words, “he who is without sin can cast the first stone” I would also have had to drop my stone and walk away.
Every good lie succeeds because there’s a thread of truth in it. Yes, the onus IS more on the guy, because biologically, men’s sex drives are more insistent, so men ten to drive sexuality in a relationship. There’s a thread of truth getting him into some ongoing accountability, because a man who cheats on his fiancee has issues that don’t just disappear by saying “sorry.” He might be dealing with a sex addiction. There’s even a thread of truth a disciplinary contract… if the guy was on staff or leadership. But he wasn’t. He attended a heck of a lot of meetings to be called “unrepentant.” It sounds like another case of Toxic Church syndrome.
PS The NY Times published this story on MH a couple years ago. http://nyti.ms/prdSOO
Oh please. Get real. They didn’t even have sex. They got emotionally close. That’s it. At most they made out.
If anyone is obsessed with sex it’s fundie Christians
This is the type of fear and control that breeds codependency.
Unbelievably sad. Praying that you find deep fellowship and love as you move forward from this.
May the response here serve as a reminder that not all “Christians” are like that, that this is wrong, that we see it. That we see YOU.
While I admit that this story is shocking, I believe it is more shocking because it seems so foreign to us today. We live in a society that has lost its need for judgement or discipline. In fact, we are more in need of them today than ever before. We exist in a “feel good” society that pronounces over its airways and in its books that we can be better if we try hard enough. While I am unfamiliar with several parts of Mars Hill, church discipline is under-utilized in the christian church today. While his methods and formality seem harsh, I applaud Mark for taking it seriously and trying to return church discipline as a means of pointing to Christ. In the end, repentance for sin and a right relationship with God through Christ is of vital/eternal importance. It is well described in scripture and seems to be followed here in form.
Why do most comments on here “feel sorry for Andrew” and do not desire to see him restored to Christ and the Church?
A) Because he IS restored to Christ,and
B) because Andrew being restored to Christ’s church does not have anything to do with whether or not he submits himself to the highly questionable leadership of this particular congregation.
Adam, I hope that you are correct in that he is restored to Christ. This comes not just from confession of sin but from turning to Christ as the sole support for fleeing from that sin. Only Andrew and God know the state of Andrew’s heart. However, it is my hope and experience (biblically supported) that trusted brothers would aid us in the redemptive process. Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working (James 5). Your second point is prejudiced toward and since I have no direct contact with Driscoll, I will leave as you have said. I will say If anyone says, “I love God,” yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen (1John 4).
Andrew being restored to Christ is not a determination Mars Hill can make. It is not up to Mark Driscoll or anyone else to determine who is “christian” enough and who needs to be whipped back into shape. We are all hurting and broken people and maybe if MH chose to embrace that and teach appropriate ways to engage someone in Andrew’s place then we would have a Church that looks a lot closer to Acts and a lot less like the Pharisees Jesus had to speak out against.
While I agree with your point that no one can determine the “salvation status” of another, I will point to Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. The recognition of good fruit implies a “good” tree. More importantly, the failure to recognize “fruit” may imply a distance in the relationship with God. God however has ordered us to live in community and submit ourselves to the greater body, the elders and ultimately to Christ. If we try to live and operate according to the scriptures, then what has taken place with Andrew would appear on the surface to coincide and uphold biblical doctrine. This makes it no less tragic.
If someone repents, they are restored to CHRIST, but that is different than being restored to the CHURCH. Being restored to the Body is key for healing, and yet there are many churches that will not allow someone who has walked away like this into their community, or only with restrictions and limitations. The restoration process can be further shaming and damaging. I pray that won’t be Andrew’s experience.
I hope you are right Sherie. The church is full of sinful, broken people that individually make tremendously poor decisions on a regular basis (personal experienc). That is exactly why God has so emphasized the need for community which he supplies in the form of the church. it has specific boundaries for right relationships between members and importantly between the corporate body and God. God has placed men This saying is trustworthy: “If someone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a good work.” The overseer then must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, an able teacher, not a drunkard, not violent, but gentle, not contentious, free from the love of money. He must manage his own household well and keep his children in control without losing his dignity. But if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for the church of God? He must not be a recent convert or he may become arrogant and fall into the punishment that the devil will exact. And he must be well thought of by those outside the faith, so that he may not fall into disgrace and be caught by the devil’s trap. Though imperfect, these men corporately carry out the office entrusted to them (Driscoll included) and must support the entire body. They seem to have engaged Andrew and have set standards for him to demonstrate that he desires to continue in communion with the body. He has refused and therefore has forfeited this sweet communion. But all is not lost, because he can be restored!!!
Brian, I understand what you are saying. You have an understanding of community, the Body, and accountability that is something we grow and mature into. Life outside of that sweet communion is horrible, and very vulnerable to the attacks of the enemy. Yes, Andrew can be restored to the Body, but it takes both him seeking out that restoration, and also others choosing to restore him. It is not just his choice.
I say that just because I have walked a similar journey being charged with disunity when I disagreed with the pastor, although I wasn’t given the choice to sign a contract and submit to discipline. I sought out restoration and forgiveness and while the pastor has stated I am released of the charge against me (this took 2+ years), I am not allowed contact with that church and no one else has forgiven or released me. Also, no other church has confirmed I am forgiven and embraced me back into community. I am allowed to attend services, but not fully share in fellowship. Someone asked if Mars Hill has the power to affect Andrew’s ability to work, enter another church, etc. My experience is yes, a church can affect this, and the pain of seeing others in the community that you can’t relate to is enormous. This stage of church discipline should never be about cutting off the person deemed sinful. The great commission call us to share the Good News, calling a person to repentance, challenging them to repent and believe, speaking words that encourage and edify, and embracing the person back into community when the healing occurs. The Lord wins our hearts through love and grace, not rules and restrictions.
I agree with your post. If you or anyone seeks reconciliation with the church and have made appropriate steps agreed upon at the outset of any conflict then it is improper for the church to deny you proper fellowship. The church is not perfect, nor will it be, and yours may be an example of this imperfection. I hope that you do find fellowship. Thanks for your response
The problem was between Andrew and his fiancee. Possibly with the other woman. That’s it. They had an issue in their relationships. He made a mistake and hurt her. How to deal with that was solely between them. It wasn’t the business of any of the pastors and it certainly wasn’t the business of anyone else attending that church
This is incorrect. The effects of sin are far reaching and affect more than ourselves. They are offensive to God and deserve a just punishment. That punishment was staved for centuries until they were poured out on Christ. Not only to God, operating with secret sin within the church undermines the message of the church and displays improper perceptions about believers and more importantly Christ himself. While marriage (and engagements) are representative of Christ and his love for the church, Andrew is essentially representing that Christ “cheats on” (more forcefully: adultery) the church which is never true. That is why it extends beyond Andrew and the church must be involved.
This is not the case for unbelievers
[…] Matthew Paul Turner on Mars Hill’s Church Discipline By Jonathan D. Fitzgerald On January 25, 2012 · Leave a Comment · In Religion (function() { var s = document.getElementsByTagName('script')[0], rdb = document.createElement('script'); rdb.type = 'text/javascript'; rdb.async = true; rdb.src = document.location.protocol + '//www.readability.com/embed.js'; s.parentNode.insertBefore(rdb, s); })(); In case you haven’t seen it yet, Matthew Paul Turner (who blogs, and tweets with the moniker @jesusneedsnewpr), has an amazing–and amazingly painful–story on his blog about a young man named Andrew who, after admitting to cheating on his fiancee, was subjected to church discipline at Mars Hill Church. There’s a lot more to the story than that, and I encourage you to read it. (It’s in two parts, one and two.) […]
Matthew & Andrew,
Thank you for being bold enough to share what happened. I thank you for highlighting a very flawed and hurtful view of Matthew 18 and repentance that so many churches and Christian non-profits have taken today. I was treated in a very similar way at a very well known non-profit. They loved me until I did what they didn’t approve of. As long as I stayed in line and did all the right things I was okay. I almost lost my job on someone’s opinion of my actions and was never given the chance to speak my side. I chose to leave but the scars of being so badly mistreated and abused in the name of “God and the Gospel” live on. It’s very sad to me that Mars Hills (and this organization) chose the condemning/manipulating/controlling/dominating/abusive route vs. one that displays the love and grace of the God I love and serve. It takes guts and courage to speak up about this, so again, I thank you.
BrianHow about you? How would you like the world to see what is going on in your thought life? My guess is that you (along with me) have as many issues with sin as Andrew. Since you think the world needs more discipline, might i suggest that your confess, moment by moment, your thought life. Oh, carry a video camera with you and le’s see everything that you do and say. I think you would need some “discipline” as well.
Andrew’s did not have sex with another. He “made out” with her. I wonder, have you ever thought about doing that, or more, with another? According to Jesus, you are guilty as well. I hope you are planning on letting your pastor know so that he can discipline you and you can be an example for the rest of us.
While I would not like the world to see my thought life (it would be shameful), I do attempt to live in a state of confession as it is good for the soul. But confession is not the answer alone. We must turn from our sins (See adulterous women). “See that you sin no more that nothing worse happens to you” Go and sin no more – blind man at the well. I also have relationships with other mature christian men including my pastor where I am able to openly confess my sins. However, they also push me to life (ie turning from sin). They are not just a confessional, but go the next step to push me away from sin and upwards to God.
As to your second point, guilty as charged. Everyday I suffer from sins of the flesh. I write this with my wife looking on and it grieves me greatly to hurt her in this way. It also grieves my God and thus I seek to turn from my sin.
I crave discipline. It is good for my soul. “Let a righteous man strike me–it is a kindness; let him rebuke me–it is oil on my head. My head will not refuse it. Yet my prayer is ever against the deeds of evildoers” Psalm 141
I’m pretty conflicted on how I feel about Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill, sometimes I’m with them, sometimes I disagree, but here’s the thing that stuck out to me:
Andrew said, “Toward the end, their desire to control me sort of felt out of control. It’s like they believe that they have some power over me.”
The simple truth of the matter is, while they may not have nebulous ‘power’ over him, as a member of their church, they do have authority over him–authority that he himself submitted to–authority he should therefore obey.
The letter, at least the parts directing the speech of members is undoubtedly over the line. Notifying the congregation of what has occurred is a necessary step (if you take Matthew 18 seriously), and a letter seems as a good a way as any.
That being said, from a church leadership perspective, if you have these processes in place for discipline, and a member refuses to follow through with them, what are you to assume? I personally would endeavor to meet with him again to figure out why exactly he was opposed to following through: was it the contract? the process itself? or was he truly living an unrepentant lifestyle.
It seems to me that Andrew could have been more submissive to authority he himself voluntarily submitted to, but that, more importantly, Marsh Hill could have been more pursuant in their attempts to restore him gracefully.
Wait a minute. The primary sin for which this guy is being called out ISN’T (a brief moment of) cheating on his fiancee, but is actually his relationship with his fiancee? And for all we know, even that might not have been more than just making out?
How does this make his fiancee feel (not that MH leadership cares…)? The fact that her loved one cheated on her is totally ignored. And now she’s made to feel like a helpless victim rather than someone whose relationship sadly ended – that’s an unnecessary burden.
I knew that Driscoll is mentally insane, but I actually didn’t think he bought into the “no premarital sex” nonsense. That doesn’t fit at all with his attempt to draw in young people.
Oh, so pastors should just rewrite their theology to accommodate whatever demographic they’re trying to reach?
Does that apply to pastors in prison ministry? “I know you raped and killed six women, but actually, God’s cool with that!”
Sure. That’s what they ALL do. It’s possible to justify literally anything with the Bible
As for the second part. You know it’s crap. I don’t need a book to tell me that rape is wrong.
Well, if MHC preaches against premarital sex to young people, then obviously it’s not true that all pastors tailor their theology for their target audience. At least not in the way you would prefer.
Furthermore, MHC has been wildly successful at reaching young people this way, so your assertion that the theology “doesn’t fit” the demographic would seem to be contradicted by the simple facts.
Third, if (as I infer) you’re an atheist, why would you bother to give MHC advice on how to reach more young people?
Fourth, I know the second part is crap, but it’s your logic, not mine.
Fifth … if MHC were to change its theology about premarital sex, but keep its approach to church discipline, there would still be a problem. What’s odd is that MHC has been faithful to its Reformed roots in its teaching on sexuality, but has completely departed from those roots when it comes to church discipline.
Whether we all agree on what constitutes sin is at the end of the day, less important than how we treat people who are perceived to be sinners.
The “no premarital sex” doctrine is a great tool for making people feel like shit about themselves and erasing people’s ability to distinguish between harmful and non-harmful sexual behaviour, both of which play right into the hands of a pastor who’s obsessed with sex and wants people to be emotionally dependent on him.
Jesus says to treat them like a gentile or a tax collector. how are gentiles a tax collectors to be treated? How did Jesus treat gentiles and tax collectors? How did jesus treat the pharisees and money changers? Seems to me he loved the former and whipped the later.
If so, Mat 18 will read : if the sinner does not repent personally, or repent publicly to the church then he is to be…LOVED.
Andrew is younger and i can understand the intimidation a young man may feel when confronted with something he feels is not right. Especially with older “leaders” coming down on him.
With him leaving means he no longer has a voice is their conversation. Staying and standing up to what he believes is right would have keep him in the conversation until Mark forced him out OR the church sees the error of their ways and changes the accountability policy.
Leaving does open up accountability issues for andrew if he decide to join another church. The leaders their will want to know what andrews character. if the find out the hard way one will wonder why Mars Hill avoided due diligence in protecting the flock, imo.
I think that how a church handles prospective members who left their previous church under a cloud due to spiritual abuse is probably not a bad test of whether that church is worth attending. A good church will have the discernment and responsible attitude necessary to see that Mars Hill’s behaviour was abusive, and welcome someone like Andrew with compassion and open arms.
Here’s another thing needs to be commented on: One of the most alarming things about the letter, apart from the abysmal treatment of poor Andrew, is how it reveals the level of control the leadership exerts over the congregation. There’s an implicit assumption that everyone who reads the letter will let themselves be controlled to the degree of who they will and won’t associate with– not just that, but reciting prepared scripts of what they’re allowed to say to him. How manipulative can you get?
Contrast the NT’s instructions to elders:
Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly; nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock…. (1 Peter 5:2–4 NKJV)
Even apart from the shameful treatment of Andrew, this letter reveals that the MH leadership takes it for granted that they’re entitled to “be lords over those entrusted to them.” This is unacceptable. In fact, it’s one of the classic signs of Spiritual Abuse, as also practiced by many cults.
This church is the wolf who cried wolf.
Since some of you have linked to your blog posts on the subject, here’s one to add: http://www.ericpazdziora.com/writing/antidotes-to-spiritual-abuse/
Having just read a couple of reviews of Driscoll’s new book on marriage I wonder if Mars Hill will be issuing Driscoll a church disciplinary contract for having premarital sex with his wife?
I believe the biblical “disciplinary action” for couples engaging in premarital sex is that they should marry. I don’t recall any biblical mandate for writing out a detailed history of one’s sexual history for a voyeuristic review as part of the repentance process.
Yes, the punishment for premarital sex between a man and a woman in Leviticus, provided that they’re not married or betrothed to anyone else, is a shotgun wedding and the payment of a fee to the woman’s dad, if memory serves. Not any of this “we want your guts on a plate” contract business.
Speculation: Andrew was harshly served because the fiance he fooled around with was an elder’s daughter. Dad’s anger is being taken out on Andrew. No chance of Andrew getting a fair shake from MHC.
No offense, but maybe you should read the book before you make judgmental comments like this? Just a thought…
One doesn’t need to read Mark’s book to know that he had premarital sex with his wife.
[…] Matthew Turner made us all aware of an awful situation at Mars Hill Church involving the response of…. The offending member sought forgiveness for his actions, but when he refused to sign a contract […]
This thread is getting harder and harder to load and that is a joy to me. Since I live in YRR “ground zero” and cannot swing a cat without hitting a Driscoll fan, it is pure joy to read this long thread and all of you who “get it” when it comes toDriscoll. Most of the leadership of the SBC thinks he is wonderful and promote him all the time. You guys give me hope for Christendom in the West.
Driscoll is the poster boy for what Paul warned about in Acts 20.
I cannot help but ask….where was the woman in this story?! What kind of woman lets the man she loves take the fall for a sin she participated in?! Did she get a spiritual beat-down too? If not, WHY NOT? This is disturbing on so many levels.
Darcy, can you imagine how absolutely afraid she is now that her “sins” were made so public?
In Mars Hill theology, women are chattel
The thing that bothers me about this is not so much the letter (and other related actions) – as harsh as it sounds, I don’t think they are that far off from the commands of Matthew 18. What bothers me is the situation to which it was applied. I believe that church discipline is reserved for those that are living in unconfessed, unrepented sin. Given, this article is extremely one-sided, but it does at least appear that Andrew had willingly confessed and was extremely repentant and willing to “jump through the hoops” to show his repentance.
The other thing that bothers me is that it seems that Mars Hill has taken the position that they are not a church but The Church. And so by Andrew walking away from this church, they have essentially taken the position that he is walking away from all believers, which I did not interpret to be the case.
Beyond that, I wish that MPT would have left Mark Driscoll out of this for the most part. Yes this is his church and he is ultimately responsible as the lead pastor, but it doesn’t appear that Driscoll had a personal hand in this. Mentioning him repeatedly and even using his picture as the header of the post comes across to me as a personal vendetta against Driscoll. In Part 1 he asks “Does your answer changes if that pastor is Mark Driscoll?” And I would ask “Would this blog post be nearly as vengeful if the pastor of the church was not Mark Driscoll?”
The pastors who are carrying out this form of church discipline are under Driscoll’s authority, so ultimately he’s accountable for it whether he’s personally involved or not. The point of calling out Driscoll on this is to make him aware of the situation. If he believes his pastors are exceeding or abusing their authority, it’s up to him to decide what to do.
Basically, the reason for calling out Driscoll is the same reason Joe Paterno had to be fired at Penn State. If people under your authority are committing abuse, it’s your responsibility to put a stop to it. You can’t pass the buck and pretend you didn’t know.
Thank you for pointing that out. You would think Turner had his cornflakes personally pissed in by Driscoll they way he talks about him and takes personal affront to him.
Matthew, I find this whole series of events, as well as the two posts you have written on the subject, to be rather sad.
While Driscoll and his church seem to operate very much from a place of theological reasoning to justify their actions, I find that posts like this seem to respond from an emotive and reactionary position.
You stated in this post, that you often discuss Driscoll on this blog. Why? If you agree with Rachel Held Evans (and I’m guessing that you do) that Driscoll is a bully, why bother wasting time and energy on the man and his church?
Do you believe that posts like this–pointing fingers, laying blame, judging other people’s motives and intentions–will lead to his repentance? Aren’t you simply behaving in much the same manner? Perhaps not a bully, but a heckler nonetheless.
None of this discussion, while interesting and perhaps even titillating to read, makes any bit of difference and will change nothing–except cause more people to judge a man for, get this, judging those in the Church, as Christ-followers are called to do.
Fanning the flame of dislike for Driscoll accomplishes two things: it makes those already opposed to him like him less and those who adore him, admire him more. What is your true objective, because if that’s it, well done.
Nicole,
I appreciate your response, and I want to ask you a question: Let’s say you truly believe a ministry is harmful or damaging to people? What is the correct response as a believer? Is it merely to quietly– or silently– pray for them? Or perhaps there is a place for something like this, if only to help those struggling in the same situation and to keep others from ending up there? This is a question I struggle with, as I have been a part of a very spiritually abusive ministry, which I have written a lot about, without ever naming the ministry.
Brooke, thank you for the thoughtful questions. To be honest, I don’t know. I don’t know what the exact right response would be and should be for situations such as this. But with all of the conjecture going on, in these comments, about how Jesus would treat Andrew, no one has asked how Jesus would treat Mark Driscoll.
I also doubt that many bloggers who have made it their mission to “expose” Driscoll and Mars Hill have ever taken the time to pray, and I mean really pray, about what God would have them write–if at all.
There is so much emotion tied up in posts like these, as well there should be. I guess it begs the question: should there really be posts like these? How effective is it?
Would we serve the Kingdom better by offering a platform and dialogue for those hurt by church leadership as a whole–a place to discuss, pray, encourage–versus a place to sorta kinda do that, meanwhile bashing a guy (and making a whole heck of a lot of assumptions along the way) many people don’t like.
NIcole,
I sincerely believe that Jesus would treat Andrew and Mark VERY differently. Jesus forgave sin instantly even sexual sin. However his harshest words were for those who held sin over people’s heads as a means of control.
I commend you for forgiving both parties, but I only see one life changed here.
Joshua, I agree that Jesus would treat them differently. I can see why it seems that I am coming to Driscoll’s defense and/or offering him forgiveness. Neither is true, in fact.
I do know, however, that when people become the member of a church, in almost all cases, they are placing themselves under the authority of that leadership. Do I think it was handled perfectly? No. Do I think there is more to the story than has been related in these two posts? Yes.
Do I think Jesus would be in support of public belittling and word-slinging towards another brother-in-Chirst? No. Do the comments here hint at that kind of behavior? Yes.
There just seems to be a lot of stone-casting and not much else, that’s all. Of course, that’s just my feeling. I know others disagree.
Here’s where you and I disagree in a respectful and not emotionally charged way:
A local church elder has no “authority” over you. There is no need for a church membership. Jesus does have authority over you. I’ve looked for the word pastor in the New Testament and can’t find it anywhere.
There’s a difference in calling yourself a believer and not being one, and calling yourself a believer, sinning, repenting and being shunned by the believers.
I know you know this and I’m not trying to come across confrontational to you as I absolutely respect and value everything you’ve posted here.
Joshua, first and foremost, thank you for being willing to have a discussion that is both logical and tempered. It is appreciated.
Church elders certainly do and did (in the New Testament) have authority over church members. Paul cautioned and warned church elders not to exert their authority unnecessarily (1 Peter 5) but what is the point of having an elder if they have no authority?
Do they serve as a toothless, powerless, role with nothing but a title to throw around?
The word pastor is certainly in the New Testament. It is the word shepherd–one who pastors the flock. Shepherds, however, are not the same as elders and serve completely different roles within the body.
I do agree that church “membership” is a made up term, not supported in scripture, but it doesn’t change the fact that church members, when joining a church give that leadership authority over them.
Regardless of authority, as members of the Body, we should be willing to submit to one another in authority for correction and reproof (1 Cor 5) That act is scriptural and while Mars Hill may not have executed it perfectly, I think the intention was there.
I’m going to counter a few things you said here.
Elders or Deacon’s come from the word dekanos as here :Romans 16:1 “I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant (diakonos – noun) of the church which is at Cenchrea.”
This means servant, not master.
Paul described him self as a “slave to Jesus Christ” not as a ruler in his earthly kingdom. There was nothing in this to make me think he hadn’t repented. If he was still see and sleeping with the girl he met that would be different, but he stopped things before they got out of hand and confessed it to everyone he came in contact with.
See that’s the thing, just because you get a paycheck from a church doesn’t mean you have the authority to control someones life. You also don’t have the authority to not accept repentance, ever, as a human.
The point of criticizing bullies and abusers is not primarily to get them to repent. It’s to help their victims feel less alone, and to warn away others who may consider getting involved with the bully/abuser. When you’re an abuse victim, seeing other people call out the abuse is healing. When you’re choosing a church, it is very useful to learn that one you may be considering has a track record of spiritual abuse. Matthew Paul Turner is providing a public service by affirming the reality of Mars Hill victims’ experiences and by letting many people know that Mars Hill is not a place they should get involved with.
Yeah, after my experience with an abusive ministry, this is the position I am leaning towards. If others who had left before me had been public about what happened in their opinion, I might have left earlier and spared myself some pain (or at least some lost time). This ministry in my experience liked to perpetuate the “keep silent if you leave a ministry with issues” mentality, as of course it helped silence their own detractors. At the same time, we do need to be careful before we slap the label “cult” on any ministry. Spiritual abuse and serious issues do not always merit cult status (this is a rabbit trail of my own– not related to your comment, kise).
I usually use the term “coercive religious group” rather than “cult”, because “cult” is so often misused by evangelicals and fundamentalists to refer to any group they think is heretical and threatening to them. “Coercive religious group” is also a lot more precise and less emotionally loaded.
I like that terminology. I have often stuck with ‘spiritually abusive’, which is often accurate, but sometimes that terminology seems loaded too…..or not the core issue.
Really?
What would you suggest? Never talk about these gross misuses and abuses of spiritual authority? So those who continue to be kept in the dark and abused by organizations like this, are what, collateral damage?
Bravo for the hecklers who are not afraid to point out the abusers, the wolves in sheep’s clothing!
Rocco, I never suggested, nor hinted at the idea that these “abuses” should be kept silent. Nor did I make any reference to people leaving churches where spiritual authority has been abused as anything close to “collateral damage.”
I simply wonder if in the name of exposing abuse and protecting the abused, we also forsake seeking to discover how Christ would truly have us respond.
As I commented to Brooke, many people commenting here are convinced they know exactly how Jesus would have responded to Andrew, but no one has asked how He would respond to Driscoll. Would Christ be in support of a blog post filled with hundreds of comments, primarily from a group of outsiders, judging another man’s heart and intentions, labeling his church a cult, based on one letter? I’m not so sure, at that is my point.
So how would Jesus respond to Andrew, Mark, Matthew, etc…?
Rocco, I am not so pompous, arrogant, or foolish to presume to know exactly how Jesus would treat each of these men. I simply know that He probably wouldn’t do it like this.
I also happen to trust God, knowing that if Driscoll and Mars Hills needs to be held accountable, they will–before a Righteous God. Cheesy or cliche? Perhaps, but scriptural..and I find some comfort in in nonetheless.
Honestly, that is exactly what your comments are communicating Nicole. Not just our banter but everywhere else you’ve posted here. They wreak of ‘holier then thou’ arrogance. Maybe I am mis-interpreting here…
You come across as judgmental.
You’ve labeled Matthew and others here.
You have pointed out other’s ‘wrongs’ and offer nothing positive in return.
You may be using nice words and good grammar, but a sugar coated turd is still a turd.
I don’t mean to single you out.
I have nothing personal against you.
Just my two cents.
Rocco, wow. I’m a little shocked and stunned. I can almost feel the love…
“a sugar coated turd is still a turd…?”
Wait, who’s being judgmental?
well actually Jesus would have been more bold than Rocco.. he used words like; children of the devil, white washed tombs full of dead mens bones, hypocrites, blind guides, children of hell, serpents, brood of vipers, and murderers. All for abusing people under their ‘lordship’ over the people and holding them in bondage. It’s simple enough to see that many pastors in the world are behaving the same way the pharisees did. What now? Gonna call Jesus judgmental? Try reading Ezekiel 34. Here’s the thing… when leaders are abusive, we have the right to speak up about it. What is important is when those abusive leaders actually listen to the victims and repent of their abusive ways. When a victim who has been in bondage to a manipulating leader finally speaks up and leaves that abuse it doesn’t make him the rebel. It makes him free. And we have to rally together as equal members of the WHOLE Body of Christ and offer support to each other and call abuse what it is.
There’s a reason we’re called sheep. If a sheep gets it’s head caught in a fence, it won’t fight it’s way out, it will give up and die. Right there. They are VERY frustrating animals.
I’ll let you draw your own parallels.
I wonder if you are also against making sexual predators register with the state so the public can be aware that they live in their neighborhood?
It is exactly emotionally-charged and irresponsible comments like this that I am referring to. How, based on my original comment, are you able to jump to such a drastic conclusion? I do not mean that in a disrespectful way. I am genuinely interested in hearing your logic for moving from my comment to your question regarding sexual predators.
I don’t think there are blogs discussing at endless length the whereabouts and actions of various sexual predators. More than that, I find it highly irresponsible, however loosely, to associate Mark Driscoll with a sexual predator.
Words are powerful, as this post and subsequent letter, display. You would do well to be more cautious and careful with yours.
Actually I was thinking the same thing, let me explain.
Sexual predators cause much damage, so much so, there are govt databases and websites listing names, offense dates, and where they live in order to protect the public at large. Years ago, no one wanted to talk about this… and most cases were hid under the rug as no one wanted to believe such.
Spiritual predators, ring up millstones and may cause serious damage in this life, and in the afterlife. Due to separation of church and state, and being that the govt and public health agencies do not see spiritual abuse as risk to public health and welfare there are no criminal charges for such… at least not yet. If down the road such ends up being something listed in the DSM-IV, I could see public health and safety concerns trumping the first amendment in a push to legislate against such.
A few snippets of text and blog discussion doesn’t provide enough information to equate what happened here absolutely to spiritual predation… but it sure seems to ring of a toxic process which can be a prime environment for a predator to thrive in. Likewise, many fine and innocent leaders in an org could get caught up in something that’s boiling from in that they were totally unaware of, that is until it blows up in their face years later.
This needs to be talked about now, so that in 50 years….we’re do’nt see a replay of the sex predator in the church deal. Likewise, innocent parties, whomever they may be on either side, don’t need to get smeared to bits after the fact when as far as they knew, they were trying to do everything right.
oh have you not seen the public sex offender registry online with the list of offenders and their crimes?
Have you not seen the lists of cults that ended in mass suicide?
Do we need to wait for more cult deaths in order to call a cult what it is?
This is the whole point in raising awareness of what a cult is…to help spare people the pain of getting involved in them.
If you believe in hell then maybe this will help you understand the severity of damage a cult can cause.. Matthew 23: 15Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.
Making people a two fold child of hell… wow.. powerful statement by our Lord wouldn’ t you say? If Jesus had a blog I’m sure he’d be rebuking today’s abusive leaders.
In this day and age, there is really little excuse for someone to get involved with these sick cults in the first place. The information is all out there. The more people write about it and expose their behavior, the higher the chances are that someone will read about it and think twice about joining
Amen, Steve.
Did you read Matthew’s first post about Andrew? Andrew went straight from Christian homeschooling in Tennessee to Mars Hill. Christian homeschooling typically does not teach people how to question authority, fact-check, or be skeptical of church leaders’ claims. In fact, it usually teaches the opposite. It is highly unlikely that anything in Andrew’s life prior to his being disciplined by Mars Hill even exposed him to the idea of spiritual abuse, or to the idea that you need to look for negative information about a religious group online before getting involved with them. He was most likely raised to accept the teaching of Christian authorities with little questioning. Through no fault of his own, he was most likely very ill-prepared to identify a spiritually abusive group before being abused himself.
[…] not sure what to do with it tone). And then I read the back story. You can too…here and here…and then it made me go – “Oh no!!! Dear Jesus […]
Reading that open letter was painful. They made Andrew out to be a completely unrepentant person. And labelled him an unbeliever….that is awful. Andrew did what was difficult for a lot of people – he confessed his sins. To God, to the person he wronged, to a close friend who could help him be accountable. What else do we need?? Why humiliate him? Shame him like this before the congregation? It’s appalling. And NOT demonstrative of the love of Christ. Talk about throwing stones!
Andrew – if you’re reading the comments, please know that I am praying for you. I am so grieved for your sake. I hope you will find God in your healing and counseling. God loves you and when you repented sincerely of your sins, He forgave you. Completely. And restored you to fellowship with Him. I say this with conviction because it is His Word.
But to this I call to mind, and therefore I have hope: The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end; they are new every morning; great is your faithfulness. “The Lord is my portion,” says my soul, “therefore I will hope in him.” – Lamentations 3:21-24
The LORD’s grace and ABUNDANT life pour down upon you, dear brother. May He put your feet on solid ground and may He always be the light to your path. Rest in the LORD – He is good and faithful and mighty to save.
Very clearly Mars Hill is a cult and Mark Driscoll is anti-christ (opposed to Christ). No further discussion or evidence needed. Church discipline is real, but membership in a church is something that happens by the gift of the Holy Spirit and the consent of the believer. NOT at the pleasure of church leadership. If Andrew needs a church that will give him a letter of transfer as a member in good standing, I will gladly extend the hand of fellowship to him any time and we can start dealing with the ways this cult has damaged his relationship with God and the Church. That is the sin here that needs repentance from, not “sexual immorality”. Mars Hill has sinned. The entire community. By continuing to support this cult with their time talent and treasure they are enabling a sinful pack of wolves.
You’re so kind. 🙂 I’d also like to add to that…that as members of the BODY happens upon belief in Christ…and no letter needed to be a true member of the BODY. And as such no man or ministry can take that away from Andrew. Wouldn’t you agree?
I would like to see evidence of a first hand, public confession from Andrew’s fiance about her part in the sexual sin she participated in also.
In all my years of reading scripture and attending church i’m confident in saying that Jesus would hang out with Andrew before attending Mars Hill or any other church with the same rules and regulations!
If Jesus walked into Mars Hill they would probably make him write down his ‘sins’ too. In fact, their bouncers would probably haul him off the property before he could get close enough to tell the Gospel.
…but not until they called him a ‘chickified church boy’ and ripped off his ‘sea foam green’ ‘sweater vest’. then they’d ask him why he forgave that whore of an adulteress in john 8 and allowed her to remain in the congregation of he faithful while unrepentant for not having signed a contract acknowledging that she was under church discipline. driscoll will then argue that jesus should have drawn up an excommunication letter instead of drawing in the sand…
touché
[…] (2) MARK DRISCOLL’S ‘GOSPEL SHAME’: THE TRUTH ABOUT DISCIPLINE, EXCOMMUNICATION, AND CULT-LIKE CONTROL AT MARS HILL here. […]
I also know of a friend that went through something similar in another church. I don’t blame people when I hear them say I believe in God and the Bible but hate Church. I am a christian but I am beginning to hate Church. People who abuse their power like that should be ashamed of what they are doing. My prayers is that this abuse of power will stop. The hurt that so many people have experienced from people like this will stop.
I am a member of Mars Hill Church in Ballard, a leader in a ministry there and am an active user on The City. I see all posts/announcements/etc by pastors, members, etc. And NEVER has anything like this ever been seen on the city. Just to double check, after seeing the letter you posted, I went and scoured the city for anything on that date and it is not there. Mr. Turner, before you post things like that I would double and triple check your sources before you “try to bring this situation to light.” Have you even been to Mars Hill? How can you judge without investigating for yourself? I believe in opinions, but I believe in opinions that have some thought and research to back it up. In my experience at our church (i’ve been a member for 8 years) I have only seen grace and love practiced. Members/Pastors/people who are in leadership roles are indeed held accountable but not humiliated like your blog falsely presents. The picture you paint is not what I have see nor experienced. I’m not saying Mars HIll doesn’t have it’s faults, because it does. But again, not like the scene you have dramatized in the above story. So upsetting.
Like I said earlier, there’s been more than enough time since Matthew Paul Turner first blew the whistle on this for Mars Hill to pull the letter down. Whether the letter is there now or not proves nothing.
The letter may also have been specific to whatever campus/location Andrew was attending.
I wasn’t going to do this. You know, comment. Until I read that the church members were ordered not to “enjoy a meal” with Andrew.
Jesus ate with Judas. I’ll leave it at that.
A-freaking-men to that. And prostitutes. And tax collectors.
Enough said.
Sick. Twisted. This is a cult and Mark will answer for his actions. Too bad too many people will be hurt and even destroyed by him.
Clearly, she was old enough to be engaged. If your not sure if she’s still a minor or not she is most like 17 (correct?). The age of consent in Washington State is 16 so no that was in fact not illegal. If Mars Hill feels that a 24(?) year old in a relationship with a 17(?) year old is predatory, they should have objected from the very beginning. Since they did not, I take it that they have no such objection in general.
“He who is without sin,let him cast the first stone.” In John 8, a woman who is caught in adultery is brought before Jesus and condemned by the scribes and pharisees. When Jesus made the statement, “He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone”, they all left. Only Jesus and the woman remain. Jesus tells her to go and sin no more. Everyone who castigated Andrew, need to make sure that the microscope is focused on their own lives. Don’t get me wrong. What Andrew did was wrong. BUT, how many men would have stopped the sexual encounter from happening? He stopped it before it became intercourse. Then, confesses! I believe in repentance and I also believe that God forgives. Andrew, the same words spoken over the woman, are now spoken over you, “neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more!” JOHN 8:11
Well, since everyone is so obsessed with justifying every little action with the Bible…they’ll find plenty of justification for that
I am continually amazed at how the church believes that we find righteousness and holiness by focusing on sin. I am so glad it was not the awareness of my sin that led me to repentance but the revelation of His goodness that did. (Rom. 2:4). Oh ya, doesn’t the definition of repentance mean to change your mind? (Metanoia) Didn’t Andrew do that the moment he turned his car around and go back into the home of his CGL? Didn’t he change his mind there? God help us! When are we going to learn the difference between punishment and discipline? Punishment comes from the word punitive, (To pay for) I thought Jesus did that? and it looks like Mars Hill’s doctrine is now trying to ask Andrew to “Pay” with time and actions. Discipline however comes form the word disciple, (Teach train) so why so much focus on the “Sin” and why do we continue to live in a spiritual economy where believers have to “Pay” to make it right. sure it’s not the old indulgences program of the catholic church but just another form.I am not condoning sin, winking or nodding at it, or trying to sweep it under the rug. I just believe that if we are to see the church walk in righteousness and holiness, we need to shift our perspective from living by the letter of the law which brings death, and the focus on the sin in peoples lives, and start living by the Spirit which brings life. How about we acknowledge the sin, deal with it under true repentance and then begin to focus on the goodness of God and the fact that there is forgiveness of sins. no wonder the world looks at us and avoids us.
The leaders of this church would be wise to remember the Lords prayer, I’m thinking of the line forgive us our trespasses as (meaning “to the same standard”) we forgive those who trespass against us.Forgetting this is dangerous to your soul. If you are a judgmental ass God will judge you the same way. Be forgiving of others and you stand a better chance. ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, not all except some pastor at a church in Seattle.
For anyone in the Seattle area who is seeking a church community built on love & acceptance, come check out Keystone Church in Wallingford — open & affirming, justice centered. http://www.keystoneseattle.org/index.html
Look, Ma! Free advertising!
What is Keystone’s approach to church discipline?
Wow. This makes me sick. Absolutely heartbroken.As a Christian, it makes me so mad that God is being represented by people who are like this. If you want to be manipulative and controlling… fine, but for the love of God please don’t put Jesus’ name on that behavior.
Props to you, Andrew, for responding with dignity and seeking true freedom. More people need the guts to leave spiritually controlling situations like you have.
Ugh. This is what happens when Christians get too legalistic, and start dictating instead of discussing. They were treating Andrew like a problem instead of a person. They ignored his attempts to meet and deal with issues, making it about their work to fix him instead of his attempts to deal with his problem(s).
Frankly, my inner-city church deals with far more serious problems. This sounds so petty compared to the people in our church who are dealing with raising kids alone that they had in their teens, are recovering from drug addiction, or are registered sex offenders. We’d be closing our doors within months if we treated sin like that.
Amen!!
Thank you for the work you do to help those folks. It’s an issue that is near and dear to my heart as well.
1) It’s totally wrong what happened to this guy Andrew. 2) In the United Methodist Church that I come from, we have the opposite problem. We profoundly underappreciate the liberating power of confession and accountability. Hence I wrote this piece, not to “take the other side” in this conversation, but because it would have been way too easy for me just to pile in and criticize a way of doing things that is completely foreign to my context when our lack of recognition of sin is the opposite problem. So here’s what I wrote in response: http://morganguyton.wordpress.com/2012/01/25/driscoll-and-wesley/
The letter written to MH church members is just scary. Attempting to control people’s behavior and even their speech is the realm of fascist dictators, not the Church of Jesus. Is this the Gospel or the Gestapo? I don’t mean to say that MH is anywhere near the level of horror of Nazi Germany, but it is oppressive. One of the very things that Jesus came to overcome (Luke 4:16-20).
When has organized Christianity ever been anything else? It’s been like that since the 4th century. And the first two or three centuries were spent on getting rid of “heretical” sects who believed different things about Jesus. Christianity is also huge on thought crimes
Mr. Godwin! Nice to see you. Pull up a chair!
Can you say “CULT?” Mark Driscoll is not a minister of the Gospel. He is a very sick man who is using the church as a cover for his ego-driven and twisted theology. NO true minister would approach this situation in such a toxic manner. And NO one (Christian or not) should submit to such an absurd, medieval approach to dealing with such an intensly personal situation.
What troubles me even more is the high regard that Driscoll is given in evangelical circles. His brand of legalism is touted as a model for other churches, particularly those in the dominionist movement. This is very frightening stuff – particularly as Driscoll and his cohorts gain political power to feed their maniacal ideas of Heaven on Earth.
This is no Heaven that any sane person should be a part of – including Jesus. Driscoll and his movement MUST BE exposed for what it is – a CULT, not too dissimilar to Jim Jones – just better funded and dressed up as respectable.
Keep away from the KoolAid kids!
I seriously doubt anyone will have to “wish this kind of “gospel shame” on Mark Driscoll”. Legalism like this almost always serves to cover something. Given time I bet we all will see that this could have been handled in a way that would have forged strong relationships and a stronger faith had the plank been removed so that the speck could be seen.
So sad… Jesus does need new PR!
Leaving that church was very brave of Andrew. I am glad he did it. I’ve attended ELCA and LCMS churches the last few years. All I got to say, is that we would’ve treated him differently. 😉
Not to be outdone by Mars Hill, the Rev. Jeff Breakfast has written his own church displine contract. Ha ha!
http://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-breakfast/discipline-contract/358249580869680
Stephy, thank you for sharing that. That was one of the most wonderful things I have ever read.
That’s awesome. Great laugh
*sigh* Thank you MPT for getting the facts on this before just blasting a preacher or church for reckless use of God’s Word. To Andrew, you have many friends and brothers who have walked where you are. I’m praying that your relationships are restored. To Pastor Mark and his associates, please remember that those who show mercy, will be shown mercy. There is a place for church discipline, but it appears that Andrew has shown evidence of repentance, and is therefore not subject to it by your own definition.
To everyone and myself, may we remember that remember, “Your (our) love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples.” John 13:35
Wow. I feel for Andrew. We too belonged to a church with many friends. After many lies the pastor spoke about us we decided our only choice was to leave and find a church with Christlike leadership. At that point in time he proceeded to poison all our long term friendships. Ultimately he left the ministry, shortly thereafter his marriage fell apart and he is still fooling people to this day. To the best of my knowledge he has never repented or ask anyone for forgiveness. Best advice for Andrew is to forgive and then walk away and never return. Anyone who complies with that pastor in shunning him was never a true friend to begin with. This is so very sad. Christians (or so called) are our own worst enemies at times. In my life those who have hurt me the most are the ones that have claimed Christianity.
Well Mars Hill really is the epitome of the phrase “The Church is the only army that shoots its wounded”.
I am ashamed of what is going on right here in my own town. Saddened by friends of mine that go to that little piece of hell. Sad to see a church go in such a radical direction from Jesus’ message of forgiveness and love.
Why on earth anybody would subject themselves to the utter bullshit that is religion is beyond my ability to understand.
Pastor Mark frequently stretches the truth. Theres a whole site about it. He makes up quotes for the doctrine series, can’t remember which state he was in when God spoke to him, and denies ever mentioning Ted Haggard. Check out resources at http://driscontinuity.tumblr.com/
There’s not enough in these two posts to make any sort of judgment. Perhaps you know more of the situation because you’ve spoken to Andrew personally, but with what you’ve given us, it’s as easy to imagine Andrew messing this up as it is to picture the elders of Mars Hill sinning and mishandling this.
I know almost nothing about Mars Hill, and would not recommend the church to friends moving to Portland. Still, your “shaking” in anger at a Starbucks seems an overreaction. I hope that you’ve more to back up your conclusions and judgments than what you’ve shown us.
In your time of great need, your church will always abandon you.This person is way better off without the Cult that is Mars Hill.
Since we all now know from Mark’s new sex book about his sexual sin with Grace before they were married, I guess we can safely assume then that Mark and Grace fulfilled these contracts as well, right? 🙂
All I can say is that we are all broken, all need God and all need prayer. I’ll pray that Andrew finds a church that will not impose shame but offer love!
Saying that we are all broken is not love. It’s inhuman nonsense
so, i read the article. this is my two cents on it. first i am sorry that he had to be excommunicated, that’s got to be painful. i know this is long but excommunication is theological complex and should be reviewed on a case by case basis.
lets examine the situation. everyone has the right to freedom of association and dissociation, this is protected under our 1st amendment. but that doesn’t automatically justify excommunication. we need to examine what led up to it. but before that we need to establish a baseline.
the church also has the right to judge its members and leaders, 1 Corinthians 5:12 says “12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you”.
Christians are supposed to be the light of the world. through out the Leviticus and the new testament god instructs his followers “to be holy, because he his holy”. the whole pursuit of a christian should be to pursue a better relationship with god, and become a “mini-christ” in the world. when we stumble in sanctification, we relay on our other brothers in Christ to rebuke us of, and help us out of our sin. which is a very loving act because sin leads to addiction and ultimately spiritual and physical death. it sounds harsh until its contrasted with the opiste, which would be; being apathetic to, or enabling, someone in their self destructive behavior.
Now lets examine the facts. He grew up in the church and is now a grown man, he was a respected member in the church, he was engaged to a young lady.
He knew that premarital sex is a sin, and that marriage is supposed to a covenant before god. he was messing around with his finance wich is understandable but still a sin. he was messing around with someone else besides his finance. which is wrong, it really hurt her.
but he realized it was wrong and he confessed. which to his credit is awesome, i don’t know if would have had the balls to do it in the same situation.
lets look at the measures that the church took. they immediately moved to protect the young women he hurt the most, his fiance, by having him changes small groups. they tried to help him to get back on the right path by providing counseling. he met with a few different pastors for a month.
these meetings were behind closed doors, and we don’t know what transpired. i think its safe to assume they asked him to address some of the deeper issues in his life, some other sin probably came up, and it looks like he refused to change. i think thats why the gave him a behavior contract, which basically says if your serious about repenting here are some of the steps you need to take.
it says you’ve hurt a lot of people with your promiscuity and you need to ask there forgiveness. so that they can heal, and you can heal.
its says, we can’t have you serving at mars hill. beacuse, christians espically christians in leadership or servernt postions should be held to a higher standards. it also looks like he may have been using that position to prey upon women.
it also says that he should will commit to consoling.
but he could still be part of the church.
he refused.
so to protect other people in the church, espically the women he was messing around with, they had to excommunicate him.
This seems harsh but i feel mars hill was entirely justified. they took all of the right steps and the individual decided to not take the steps necessarily to repent.
the tone of this article says that this process is unfair and unnecessary. so lets look at steps with a sin “that’s more extreme”, (all sin i really the same though).
what if he was a clergymen who molested a child?
first the church moved to separate the person from the victim. they then provided him with counselling so he could get better. They then told him that we can’t have you in a leadership position, because its bad for the church and exposes more people to risk, you need to continue therapy, and you need to ask your victims for forgiveness.
and then the individual refused to repent.
so then the church had to kick him out to protect other people.
this is really an issue of holding a person an accountable for what they’ve done, and protecting other people in the church. it sucks he has to go though it, but he refused to repent.
Wow, it’s not difficult to be the most dangerous person at Mars Hill Church!
So what should he do to repent? Obviously more than Jesus required in your opinion. Maybe slaughter a bull on an altar? I guess Jesus isn’t necessary in your theology.
if there was a molestation the church would have to report it to the police immediately. An adult man and woman who mutually make out is not EVEN the same thing. And this guy WILLINGLY came forward.
This whole discussion brings up an interesting point. Protestants in our rushing to the empty tomb often overlook the crucifixion three days prior. My Catholic friends often accuse us of forgetting Good Friday entirely (mostly in jest). I think This leads many to think that saying sorry to God takes care of everything. We really suck at the reconciling to each other part. MHC has taken things too far, but there’s a good word buried under it all about facing up to your sin and being made right with the people you hurt. You don’t have to jump through MHC’s hoops to do it, though. But at least they are taking full repentance seriously, if too much so.
BTW: Andrew: If your reading any of this you are welcome at my church. http://www.upc.org. My favorite service to attend is the 7pm. Also there’s great Young Adults Ministry stuff on Tuesdays. Blessing on you, brother. Jesus loves you and so do we all.
This is quite unsettling. It seems to me that when a church gets to a certain size the business of maintaining a “congregation” subsumes the sincerity of relationships and commitment. I totally resonate with the “switch” that happened in his interactions with others. Stigma is so powerful. It’s sad to think that a church would want a member to be seen as “unclean.” And equally sad (and strangely expected) that the congregants obeyed.
Bottom line, we have too many nice people in the church today. God did not call us to be nice. These nice people then don’t have a vocabulary for sincere/candid conversations and can’t handle it when something serious comes up. It’s like some days I want to tell my Christian friends to just “be normal.”
Moreover, I don’t see this as a conversation about theology or church governance, but as a conversation about the CULTURE that we are creating as Christians. What is the nature of this culture?
An insular community (with church FB and community groups/Bible studies every night) is just plain unhealthy. Go play ultimate frisbee with the college students down the street … and don’t call it anything.
This makes me want to puke. They sound like the mob. I don’t know much about Driscoll and his community so I wonder if this will affect Andrew’s standing in the Seattle community at large. How influential are its members? Would they be able to keep him from getting work or getting necessities?
Heck no!
I’ve been to one Mars Hill Church ceramony with a friend at which Pastor Mark (aka The Wolf) angrilly addressed the congregation about how anyone raised in an “organized religion” was a “degenerate filthy animal and worthless in the eyes of God.” I can’t help, but wonder where these righteous individuals were when I was learning about how “he who is without sin, should cast the first stone” in my degenerate faith.
In everything this “community” does they put the words and desires of a church before the word of God and his teachings, and that is something I will never understand.
Dear Andrew, RUN! Don’t walk… away from this form of performance based gospel. I had a similar thing happen to me without any physical contact with a pastor on staff, only the accusations of his jealous wife. I was told if I didn’t sign the contract we would be excommunicated in front of the whole church with our teenage children present! We were leaders in the church, we had problems, most people do in church but this was not the answer! These church types use Satan’s tactics of fear, shame and control, to keep face instead of loving the person and getting to the bottom of their issues, why? Because they have no clue how much the Father loves us. Come to Seattle Revival Center, we love drug addicts, sex addicts, homosexuals, prostitutes and home school kids who want to experience the real love of God not just religion! Come and watch the power of God’s love transform our lives. God has a good plan for your life!!!!!!!!!! We are located in New Castle. Service starts at 10:00. Long contemporary worship set, a great teaching of Love and freedom from our pastor Darrin Stott. Don’t give up on God, you have an amazing destiny.
she is not still a minor. she turned 18 last spring. and like mike said, the age of consent is 16.
This does change things a bit, honestly. Sleeping with a 17-18 year old and being engaged to her is quite a different thing than sleeping with a 25 year old. I know sin is sin, but emotionally and maturity do play into it here.
For Andrew – Be at peace, knowing that you are supported by many and that we respect your personal integrity. You have opened eyes by sharing your story, and you did the right thing. May God bless and keep you, giving you rest and healing.
And to stress – that letter was only sent out after and because you rejected the plan they put in place for you as though you did not think any action was required, and walked away instead (in their view, giving yourself a clean slate at a new church). That was their basis for thinking you had something to deal with, not just the fact that you had sinned and admitted it.
[…] HT to singleman, who provided a reference to this link. […]
The root of control is fear…I wonder what Mark is afraid of?
Mars Hill is a cult, and Mark Driscoll is a cult leader.
Yeah, the problem with church ‘discipline’ is that it risks punishing people who confess and inadvertantly rewarding people who keep their sins secret. Discipline should bring healing and reconcilation, not additional shame and punishment. Above all it needs to be relational not dogmatic.
On a sarcastic note, maybe Andrew should have followed Mark’s example…you know keep all his personal life/sexual sins a secret while continuing to be in church leadership. Ten + years from now he can come clean in a NYT best seller and make millions of dollars!
Andrew…you defied their control. For them it was not about scripture, except the theology that seeks to intimidate anyone who defies their control. You are right; these pastors were being voyeurs. They wanted repeated meetings to discuss all of the salty details of what you did and how many times you did it. They were living out their own sexual fantasies through your confessions. Mars Hill will eventually fall because there is in fact NO theology grandiose enough to validate pride. let me know if I can help you in any way. Stay free. Stay vertical with God. Jk.
Dear Lord…I’m without words on this. When stuff like this comes to light it’s actual painful, literally, to read and digest.
I created an info-graphic about cult leaders called “Is Mark Driscoll a Cult Leader?” (here: http://is.gd/QTGWbP ) I saw some curious tendencies and similarities, according to what the experts say (I have the sources cited), but I didn’t want to make a pronouncement. (who does?)
I may have to revise my chart. Anybody who’s interested…please let me know if you think I should!
excellent graphic!
here’s what i’d add:
requires a signed membership contract/covenant (http://marshill.com/about/become-a-member/member-covenant)
promotes electronic giving contracts that can be tracked (https://marshill.com/give)
community group leaders monitor member giving (http://twocleareyes.blogspot.com/2012/01/mars-hill-altar-of-doctrine-and-occult.html)
requires detailed, written confessions of sins
reveals confessed sins to public on a website when attempting to leave
that the last two may constitute blackmail (it is a voluntary organization after all, right?) is particularly disturbing.
That member contract might as well ask for blood in the signature and/or their first born child.
[…] They’re responding to this story. Part 1. Part 2. […]
Good job mars hill leaders i agree with how you handled this situation compleatly.
Why?Why do you agree?
thanks for bringing this to light this reinforces why I like mars hill.
Trolls get blocked, Matt.
I have never been under church disipline so good to see how well they handled this tough situation.
Religion is evil. Christianity is evil. Mark Driscoll is a dick.
I find it absolutely hilarious that posts that cogent points opposing the views of this blog are often ignored, or supplementarily responded to in an incendiary manner.
How so, Hal? Since this conversation began, I’ve only blocked one user. And that’s because he kept posting over and over again for no reason.
Church security? Unwanted visitors?? Do churches really need bouncers? And what are the qualifications to step inside the velvet rope?
I am a pastor just north of the Seattle area and this story breaks my heart. I will not say anything negative about Pastor Mark or his church because I do not believe that would be ethical biblically but this story absolutely tears me up. This young man is more than welcome at my church and I would cherish the time to sit with him and talk about everything, in order to share with him the love that Christ has for him.
Why is it not ethical biblically? Is it ok for you to stand aside and let people be mislead and mistreated? I attended a chuch that abused those who questioned the leadership and were forced or cast out. The ministers in the otherchurches in town were content to stand by and watch people continue to be abused by the leadership there. I contend
that your response is an act of cowardice. You are more afraid of the reaction from Driscoll and his accolytes than you are of God. We will all have to answer for what we have done and what we have not done.
Tell Andrew to try Bethany Community Church in Seattle. It’s where I went after Mars HIll and the Acts 29 network burned me. Its a great place to heal
Good on you Andrew for your insightful discernment and honorable handling of such a precarious situation.
Hopefully, hopefully, hopefully in the long run, your “friends” from the MH community will begin to see how very wrong and damaging shunning is.( I’ve been on both the giving and receiving end of shunning.)
I know it hurts (understatement). Yet, the action you have taken at age 25 will provide you great strength and the avoidance of years (and possibly what could have been decades) of worse heart break.
I hope you can continue to healthfully grieve the heart-wrenching losses and to integrate this experience and build a wonderful and fulfilling life.
Kudos and blessings….
This is to all of you that have posted on this blog. Rather than fighting, argueing, and cussing,(christian and non.. No offense), if we r to actually follow scripture, aren’t we to go to the source and not gossip about what we think is the correct way to discipline? Even if there r more accounts of this, there isn’t a perfect church and spreading this around so the”members and leadership” get it, its not the biblical way to take care of this problem. If you want it to reach these people, contact the members or leadership. There r phone numbers, e-mail addresses all listed on there website. I understand this situation sucks but this its not the way to resolve it.
I am not sure anyone on this blog, commenters and facilitator, have much influence with Mars Hills. Driscoll would declare most of us heretics. He would say any women on here are not to be listened to in church leadership issues and theological issues because he would never listen to a woman on these issues.Secondly, I am thinking the purpose of this blog is to change us. to help us see where we are slamming the door on God’s grace and hurting people by loving the letter of the law over people.
Thirdly, I think the power in this blog is to help victims of such abuse to find healing. The first step is to hear other people’s stories and know you aren’t alone. The abuser always blames the one they are abusing. It is always that person’s fault–they aren’t repentant enough, they aren’t submitting to authority and that is pushing the abuser’s hand to being harder on them. And the abused feels like it is their fault, like they are alone. And a blog like this helps those who have been hurt and abused find the road to health.
To quote Cool Hand Luke (which–this made me immediately think about this back and forth:)
Dragline: He ain’t in the box because of the joke played on him. He back-sassed a free man. They got their rules. We ain’t got nothin’ to do with that. Would probably have happened to him sooner or later anyway, a complainer like him. He gotta learn the rules the same as anybody else.
Luke: Yeah, them poor old bosses need all the help they can get.
[…] can judge it for yourself if you read the story of “Andrew” in part one and part two. Please read through it in its entirety, but here’s the skinny if your in a rush. A young guy […]
Matthew, I really appreciate you bringing this to light. I was going to respond with a comment, but ended up writing a full blown article. “Treat Them Like Tax Collectors: Reflections on Matthew 18, Church Discipline, and Andrew.” http://www.patheos.com/blogs/thepangeablog/2012/01/26/treat-them-like-a-tax-collector-reflections-on-matthew-18-church-discipline-and-andrew/
Heartbroken for Andrew and all the other “Andrews” out there. Shaking at the barbaric nature of the assault on his character. Thank God for Jesus who gave us the example of treating with dignity the woman who’d made a mistake, while all the righteous ones were pointing fingers. God help us truly be like Jesus. Thank you for awareness Matthew. Can’t believe this rubbish still exists. Please hug Andrew for me if you see him again.
Mark Driscoll leads every other leader at Mars Hill in this. He should personally address this matter. Please call on him to do so.
As harsh as this all seems, sometimes it is the only option. If a professing believer is caught in sin, sometimes only such extreme measures can lead him away from it and back into righteousness. That was Paul’s whole point in 1 Corinthians 5, after all.
If Andrew continues in his sin unapologetically, what else can they do? I mean, has he seen the errors of his ways? Has he stopped doing what was evil (turned away, i.e. repented of the sin)? Has he sought the forgiveness of God and those he wronged? Has he sought the council of wise, godly men in the church in how to deal with it? If he hasn’t done that, then what can we…
Wait, he has done all that? Oh, well then that should have just been the end of it… 😛