According to that Supreme Court decision on Friday, marriage is now a fundamental right for all couples, regardless of orientation, gender, and/or state of residence. While a host of Americans have spent the last few days expressing no less than jubilation over SCOTUS’s decision, other people have mourned as if they lost their firstborn in a remake of the first passover. Though the people in that latter group lament in a variety of ways—from outright anger in all caps to tear-drenched, emoticon-filled sorrow to loud and noticeable silence. But there’s one common thread among the majority of Americans who believe the high court made a terrible decision: Jesus.
While a good number of people who follow Christ are celebrating marriage equality, most of those —nearly all?—who disagree with SCOTUS’s landmark decision profess a strong love and devotion for Jesus.
I have a few questions for those people—those Jesus-loving folks who seemingly believe that they own the copyright on what God thinks about marriage. While I doubt my questions will change anybody’s mind on the matter at hand, I do hope my inquiries will at least cause some people to pause long enough to think about their actions, their words, their posture, their faith…
What if you’re wrong? I know that, for some of you, that’s likely impossible for you to even imagine. But if your life is truly driven by faith, a concept of belief that is, at its core, built upon the possibility that you might be wrong, then you should be able to at least consider the chance that you might not have life all figured out. Faith without doubt isn’t faith; it’s cultural certainty, little more than a lifeless creed you can shout at the top of your lungs behind pulpits, write in all caps in online comment sections, and whisper under your breath like a curse whenever challenged. It’s fine if you’re not willing to even consider the chance that you could be wrong. But your stubbornness isn’t because you possess faith, it’s because you’ve anchored yourself to a system of ideas and it scares the shit out of you to even consider any other possibility.
But the fact remains: you might be wrong. Think about that for a moment. What if all of your “God inspired” declarations about the LGBTQ communities are incorrect? What if all of those Bible verses you point to in defense of your opinions don’t mean what you think they mean? Or what if they do mean what you think they mean, except they were written with context for a particular people during a particular time because of particular circumstances. What if those laws you bind yourself to are like those other laws that you don’t bind yourself to? You know, the ones that you laugh off with some mention of “grace” or “that’s Old Testament”… Like that law about eating shrimp or pork or the one about wearing clothes made of two different fabrics or that law that prohibits you from letting your livestock roam in the same field as other people’s livestock. Or for those of you who have invited the Apostle Paul to live in your hearts, do you adhere to his other New Testament laws with the same passion that you promote his very vague words about “homosexuality,” words that might actually not be about homosexuality at all. In other words, are you a male with long hair? Are you a woman who wears jewelry or makeup? Do promote the practice of women covering their heads when at your church talk? Do you start talking about context and timeframe whenever the gift of tongues is brought up in conversation?
Straight Christians love putting homosexuality on a pedestal.
But what if you’re wrong? What if all of the blatant statements you’ve made against gay people are little more than wasted words, spiritualized hatred that you’ve mistakenly packaged with Christ? What if all of the time/energy you’ve spent fighting/debating/proclamating is just lost time/energy that could have been used for some other, more life-giving activity.
Being passionately wrong has consequences, and that’s true regardless of whether or not you present your views hatefully or with so-called Christian love.
What if you’re right? What if God loathes anal sex between men as much as you do? What if, upon learning about the Supreme Court’s decision to extend marital rights to all people, God did exactly what you suggested on Facebook that God did? Because it’s certainly possible. What if, just like you, amid heatedly debating topics and ideas regarding homosexuality, God starts daydreaming about the End of the World? And that, maybe just like you, God has to fight the temptation not to smile? Why? Because God knows just how much pleasure you’ll feel when, amid Heaven’s wrath reigning down, every one of your Facebook friends will realize that you were right about God all along.
Would you really be okay with being right about God? Before you answer that, consider what you’ve said about God, the words that you’ve put in God’s mouth, the slight relief (perhaps joy?) that shoots through your veins every time you consider the day when your God finally declares to Planet Earth that you were right. Do you want to be right about God? Would you be okay standing before the God that you’ve erected at church or in conversation or online? What does your personalized deity suggest about you, about God?
And what if you’re right about God? What if, like so many Christians suggest, God really is a grandiose being with borderline personality disorder, either the best and the greatest God ever or the worst and the most terrible God ever?
Still, even if you are right, does mimicking your version of God on Facebook help your God or satisfy you?
If you’re a parent, what is your reaction to Friday’s verdict teaching your kids? What has your child learned from watching your actions and listening to your conversations over the last few days? Does he/she have more faith that God will take care of them no matter what or are he/she filled up with fear about the dark, ugly future you’ve been not-so-subtly advertising? Has your demeanor showcased a belief that God is faithful no matter what or have you communicated that God is angry and that judgment or “The End” is soon coming? Whether you want him/her to know what you’re thinking or not, they more than likely do. And what they’re soaking up is creating a foundation for how they will think and feel in the future. They will either mimic your fear-filled or faith-filled actions or they will be put in a position in which they are forced to overcome the foundations you’ve helped inspire.
What if your child is gay? That thought might terrify you. Still, what if they are? What if they’re sexuality is fluid, somewhere on a spectrum between straight/gay? Has your reaction created an environment in which he/she will be free to tell you what they’re feeling or have you set yourself up to be the last one to know?
I’ve seen a lot of vile reactions from Christian parents over the last few days. In some cases, their thoughts have foretold just how great they fear for their kids. As somebody who grew up in a pre social media culture, I knew every time my parents were fear filled, worried, anxious… and even when I didn’t know why, I almost always felt fear, worry, and anxiety whenever they did.
Who have you silenced? Many Christians who are supportive of marriage equality remain silent because they fear the harsh backlash from Christian friends and family. Because among Christians who are vocal about their disgust for marriage equality, creating backlash toward believers who might feel differently than they do is considered holy. On Saturday, a friend sent me a DM: YOU’RE IN FAVOR OF GAY MARRIAGE? I almost just ignored his inquiry, knowing that any answer except “heck no” was going to create drama that I didn’t feel like engaging. And I was right, his answer to my “yep” was utter shock and disappointment, as if all of my spiritual, personal, relational worth was hinged on me hating marriage equality as much as he does.
Have you ever thought about how many people you silence? Push away? Exclude? There are countless pastors across the United States who personally have no problem with SCOTUS’s decision. But they can’t say that aloud in a public forum, at least, not if they want to keep their jobs or their churches. Because in evangelical churches, the Christians who often come off as bullies toward anything involving LGBTQ are rarely willing to agree to disagree. They almost always will fight the cause, threaten some form of church-oriented coup, $top their $upport, or seek to have the gay-affirming pastor or the gay-affirming assistant pastor or the gay church volunteer removed.
Do your words keep your friends in the closet? Do your opinions silence potential LGBTQ supporters? Does your certainty about what God thinks regarding gay people paralyze the good work of God?
What are you losing in this fight? Because chances are, whether or not you’re willing to admit this, you’re losing, missing, not experiencing something because of this impassioned fight you’re engaging. And if it hasn’t happened, there’s a good chance it will. Are missing out on knowing and loving some amazing people? Are you gambling with the future relationship between you and one of your children? Are you so distracted by this mission that you’re failing to engage what’s truly important in life? Is it worth it? In the grand scheme of this life and even the next life, is it really worth it?
Is it because you’re afraid? Are you bored? Are you so intoxicated by your religion that you’ve lost the ability to just love people, even if they have no plans on eventually agreeing with you on this one?
Isn’t God, even the God you believe in, big enough to handle this without your commentary? Does the answer to that last question scare you?
It’s okay. It scares me too.
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Spot on. It is most difficult to be moderate on this issue. As a kid who lived through ERA and Roe v Wade, my parents often discussed with certainty that these things would bring about the second coming. Then the European Union happened and the baby went with the bathwater.
It’s taken a lot of healing an yet I still struggle with it all. If more parents would simply live and show Jesus to their kids instead of stuffing their throats with scriptures and lectures, we’d all be better off.
stuffing their kids throats with scripture? The problem with Christians today is that they say things like “I think” and “I feel like” when in realty the only thing that matters is what the Bible says.
You must be a terrible realtor.
I do see our country headed in a downward slide, being pulled by the devil. He uses the us, and I and we to seduce the young generation. Instead of us against them. instead of I want. instead of we deserve. How about we ask God what he thinks and look to the bible for answers.
Oh wait that would require you to lose yourself and become a servant of God and you cannot do that. You refuse to do that, yeah so did the devil.
Matthew, thank you for this post. I’m a pastor who is analyzing these cultural developments with carefulness and prayer. I don’t pretend to know the exact contextualization of all things mentioned in the Bible and so I think it’s important that we ask the right questions when it comes to subjects such as this one. First of all – I think all the hateful comments that are being made are counter-intuitive to finding commonality between both sides. But I do think that is an important goal… Commonality. We have brothers and sisters on both sides of the aisle and so we have to figure out how we are going to move forward in community with this reality. The greater risk at play here for the church is division and the lack of unity. And so the question that I’d like to ask is this: Is there an absolute truth that all of us can agree upon regarding Holy Matrimony and God’s desire for sexual intimacy between 2 people? What is God’s best for His followers?
I don’t expect a non follower of Jesus to be held accountable to a truth or standard they don’t embrace in the first place… but when it comes to the church, can we move forward as a community with division on issues this big or do we need to be looking for an absolute premise upon which all of us can stand unified? If so, how so?
This is a great question. Personally, my knee-jerk reaction is to say that it’s our way or the highway…but knee-jerk reactions are rarely Christ-like.
to Christian…”do we need to be looking for an absolute premise”? Isn’t the absolute premise supposed to be love your God and love your neighbor? It’s hard to hold for Christians to hold their/our hearts open in a way that does not judge, because our human nature asks for a bar by which to set things (one that gives strict requirements even) but our God is full of grace, mercy, and gives us the ability to choose each day how we will love him and how we will treat others. He has never looked at me and kicked me out of his house for my sin, but rather a) died to wipe it away and b) has drawn me in closer each day. The very moment the church focuses in on sin they are losing sight of this absolute premise. Something about a plank in the eye…
Yes. Love is a premise upon which we all can stand. I think, holistically, that is something the church should always be striving for. I’m not overlooking that… In fact, I have a number of brothers and sisters from our gay community who attend our church. But I’m talking about something deeper here. What the SCOTUS voted Friday was NOT an issue of civility, rather one of morality. The question that no one seems to be asking: Is gay sex wrong, monogamously or illicitly? That’s the issue that I’m referring to regarding finding an absolute premise upon which the church can find unity. The emphasis has been placed on the wrong issues and therefore the wrong questions continue to be asked.
Personally, I do not believe the church will be able to move forward in unity regarding this subject without that premise and we are going to witness the greatest divisions the evangelical community has ever seen in our history. I don’t mean that fatalistically… I simply think it’s a harsh reality.
Did Jesus harp on this specific topic? What conditions did he spend his time concerned about? I have found that there was a lot more Jesus did to show the church how they were “missing the point” than the other way around. He also spent a good deal of time focusing on the condition of the heart rather than the specifics that trickle down as the effect of what was in someones heart. To try and nail down exactly whether or not homosexuality is wrong…for churches to split on this topic alone…seems to be something Jesus might have been like “whoa whoa whoa…waste of time, guys.” That is my humble opinion and I have been watching churches crumble over these sort of debates for many years now.
I happen to agree with you that the church has blown it with this issue. I also agree that Jesus never mentioned the subject of homosexuality or gay sex. But there are lots of things the church has as orthopractice that Jesus never mentioned or “harped” on. Just because Jesus didn’t mention something doesn’t equally mean He condoned it. Certainly that’s not our arguable premise. We do know that when He did talk about marriage and sex, it was always in reference to a man & a women. True?
I think Christian is right about the wrong question being asked. And even Christian restricts the question to the lens of his unquestioning literal understanding of his view of the Bible. For those of us who may revere the precept of the Bible but also make allowances for the purpose of the book, the conflict no longer exists. This is an ancient text, transcribed over generations from campfire lore to eventual scrolls to books through translations and revisions and versions. Have you ever played a game of gossip? The same phrase can’t even make it around a circle of children. The Bible is the Hebrew equivalent of the Boy Scouts Handbook, a guide for how to survive as a tribe in harsh times and culture wars, with genealogy thrown in to provide interest. Much of it – the rules which seem to form the basis for all debate and controversy – center on how to best guarantee the survival of and the growth of the tribe. We have no problem with and even dismiss offhandedly the prohibition against eating a bacon wrapped shrimp from the barbecue while we watch football on Sunday afternoon. Yet all four of these actions are strictly condemned in the Bible. The growth of the tribe – a long term aggressive military tactic still being practiced in the region today – was a critical component of survival. It makes sense that procreation be the most important – only – use for sexual activity. To a tribe transfixed on the expansion of the population of the tribe – wasting seed was an abomination. The same as the prohibitions against eating shrimp and bacon, or touching the skin of a dead pig, or not observing the Sabbath have been dismissed as irrelevant – so the prohibition against wasting seed can and should be relegated to ancient irrelevance. Today the only purpose for editing and selecting individual prohibitions for discussion is to provide a cudgel for punishing the currently designated whipping boy as an outlet for our human aggression and to insure that we are considered an morally elevated congregation in our devotion to a higher set of ideals, oh – and to raise money for churches and candidates. It is possible to be a Christian who follows the ideals of Jesus – who never uttered a word about homosexuality (and spent all of his time hanging out with his entourage of single men), and disregard the admonitions of an ancient people whose concerns and fears are irrelevant today. So, the question that I consider relevant is: If you consider the reasons for why you have chosen to interpret the Bible in a way that you can ignore some prohibitions while holding on to others that you use to exclude individuals who are your parents and brothers and sisters and co-workers and neighbors and dentists and teachers and policemen and soldiers, and you take pride in your sense of superiority to those you judge to embrace immorality, and you are willing to politically (legally) deny them equal rights in a country based on equality, what are your true motivations. And how does that purport with Jesus’ love.
Hi Matt,
Thanks for taking the time to ask some questions. I’ll do my best to answer, but I’m going to ask some questions myself if you don’t mind. Is that okay?
You said, “I have a few questions for those people—those Jesus-loving folks who seemingly believe that they own the copyright on what God thinks about marriage.”
You paint a bleak picture here. This and the “loud and noticeable silence” quote from earlier in your post make me think there are only two acceptable responses for you: Jubilation (with the requisite Facebook rainbow on our profile pic) or hate. Is that how you feel? Are you black and white on this issue, or is there grey in your thinking?
I hope there’s room for grey.
You said, “While I doubt my questions will change anybody’s mind on the matter at hand, I do hope my inquiries will at least cause some people to pause long enough to think about their actions, their words, their posture, their faith…”
I feel the same way. Let’s get started, shall we?
You asked, “What if you’re wrong?”
Then I’m wrong. Honestly. It’s as simple as that. If I’m wrong, then I’m wrong, homosexuality is not a sin, same-sex marriage is A-OK, and we can all move on with our lives and get back to arguing about Abortion or Harry Potter or whatever hot button issue comes up.
Often, people in the more progressive wings of the Christian faith, tend to believe that our disagreement with same sex marriage (or other issues) is predicated more on an emotional dislike of homosexuals and homosexuality in general. This is definitely the case for some, but not for all. I don’t know enough about social statistics to wage a bet on how many or what percentage believe this way, but my guess is: more than you think. I know a lot of dyed-in-the-wool Christian fundamentalists and none of them actually believe that a same-sex couple shouldn’t be able to visit each other in the hospital when one is sick, or pass ownership of possessions when one of them dies, or share custody of children (even if they dislike the idea of gay people being parents) or any number of other mundane things that goes along with being married.
For many (most? A lot?) of us, the objection is not a dislike of homosexuals or even a lack of understanding of the desire to have marriages. It’s a belief that God thinks homosexuality is wrong in the same way God thinks lying is wrong.
I’ll even share a secret with you, Matt. Many of us WANT it to be okay. We really do. I have a lot of friends who’s lives were turbulent when they were in the closet. Since they’ve come out, their lives have been much better, much more at peace. At least, that’s how it seems. If God came down and said, “Hey Joe … homosexuality is okay. And also, stop praying for the Reds to win the World Series, because it ain’t happening anytime soon,” I would be relieved (except for the part about the Reds and the World Series).
A question for you: What if YOU are wrong? What if God convinced you that homosexuality was a sin? How would you have responded to the news from yesterday? The fun part about all of this is that, no matter what I do no matter how good-natured or loving I try to be about it, if I disagree with the decision, I’m a bigot. Even silence is seen as TOO silent (as you attested earlier). What would you do if something you believed to be true suddenly became shunned by popular society?
You asked, “What if you’re right? What if God loathes anal sex between men as much as you do?”
Again with the assumptions? Is it possible to disagree with you and not stoop to “loathing?” I don’t think about anal sex between men all that often. I honestly don’t spend much time thinking about other people’s sex lives. If they want to engage in BDSM involving rubber, plastic toys, safe words in Latin, pineapples and…GASP … anal sex…have at it. I’m not bothered by the idea that gay people have gay sex.
My answer, again, is: If I’m right, then I’m right. It won’t change how I interact with people. I’ll do my best to love everyone, regardless of their orientation and pray that everyone will find God’s love.
You asked, “Would you be okay standing before the God that you’ve erected at church or in conversation or online?”
Yes, although I imagine I’m wrong about God on a lot of things.
My question for you: Do you think you know what I believe about God just by me disagreeing with the SCOTUS decision? If so, what does that say about you, about your ability to see things from multiple angles, about your tendency to put words in other people’s mouths? Are you open to the possibility that people don’t always conform to your easily-designed labels and boxes?
You asked, “Still, even if you are right, does mimicking your version of God on Facebook help your God or satisfy you?”
I don’t ever claim to stand in for God. I respond as me and hope that God corrects me, makes me more like him, the longer I’m here.
You asked, “If you’re a parent, what is your reaction to Friday’s verdict teaching your kids?”
It’s frankly hard to respond to this question because, on the face, the answer is my kids have learned a lot. We’ve taught them to love everyone, no matter their background or choices, and we’ve always done our best to live up to that.
The condescension dripping from this section of your post, however, makes it clear that it is impossible for someone to disagree with you to be an actual, loving person. You seem to have a very “you’re either with me or against me” vibe going on here.
You remind me of a fundamentalist.
You asked, “What if your child is gay?”
We have four boys. One of them very might well be. If that’s the case, we will love him. You act like I’ve never met, never taken pains to know or care about, never shared my life with someone who is gay before. I have. I have many friends and family members who are gay. I have close, personal friends who have struggled against their homosexuality. Some have found peace in celibacy. Some have found peace out of the closet. Some, sadly, still struggle.
All of them, every single one of them, needs love. That is what I give them. To the best of my ability, I love them.
I would do the same for any of my boys. When I put them to bed at night, I tell them, “I will always love you. No matter what.” I mean that.
You said, “As somebody who grew up in a pre social media culture, I knew every time my parents were fear filled, worried, anxious… and even when I didn’t know why, I almost always felt fear, worry, and anxiety whenever they did.”
I felt the same way.
You asked, “Have you ever thought about how many people you silence? Push away? Exclude?”
Every conversation I’ve had about this issue has been in an air of inclusivity. My motto is, “If we can’t go have a beer afterward, then we did something wrong.”
My question for you: How many people have you silenced. From reading this article, it seems relatively clear that you believe anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. Not only wrong, but bad and likely evil. You seem to be the very thing you attempt to call out in others.
There doesn’t seem to be any grey area in your thinking. Not from this one article at least. So how many people have you shoved into a label that didn’t fit and say, “You sit there and shut your mouth while I tell you how bad you are?”
Because I’ll tell you something, Matt. The tone of your article makes it seem like you’re not interested in having a beer with me based solely on the fact that I disagree with the SCOTUS decision. You know literally nothing about me other than that.
Conversation is a two-way street, Matt. How many people have YOU silenced?
You asked, “What are you losing in this fight?”
I’m not losing anything. I’m open about my opinions and I’m open about the possibility that I’m wrong. I do my best to love people, and I apologize when I fail. Some people can’t handle having people disagree with them, Matt. Those people tend to walk away. It makes me sad that they leave, but it’s always been their choice, and the door for reconciliation is always open.
I’m not losing anything in this fight. I wouldn’t even call it a fight.
Why do you call it a fight?
You asked, “Isn’t God, even the God you believe in, big enough to handle this without your commentary?”
Yes, He is. Which is mostly why I have remained TOO silent (according to your characterization from the top of your post).
I’m comfortable with God being in charge. This doesn’t scare me in the least.
I hope you have a great day, Matt, and if you ever want to get that beer with me … let me know. It’s on me.
-Joe
http://josepheshaw.com
^^^This. Wow. How did you get inside my head lol?
Thank you, Joe.
Wow the same here Joe I think you have nailed what the majority of those not happy with the ruling think.love all regardless and the rest is in God’s hands and yes it was a sad day on that day for many of us. Thank you for been such a an inspiration and putting into words what many could not including me. GOD BLESS US ALL.
I could be wrong (I’m not Matthew), but I think you’re probably not the type of person he’s addressing with this. If nothing he said actually applied to your worldview, then you probably weren’t the subject.
As a side note- I’m glad you have lots of gay people in your life and that you love them. If you haven’t already (and you may very well have), why not ask them how you’re doing? It can be awkward, but we don’t get to decide when we’re doing a good job of being positive influences in other people’s lives. “What can I do to be a better friend?” goes a long way towards actually being a better one.
The difference is that if he’s wrong, no one is harmed. Jesus blood either covers sin, even homosexuality, or it doesn’t. If you’re wrong, you have been very judegemental and unkind to a group of people who have not harmed you in any way whatsoever.
All the people who insist that this is their business forget that there is a person at the other end of their judgemental behaviour.
Hi, Paul,
You said two things that stick out to me…
THING #1:
“If you’re wrong, you’ve been very judgmental and unkind to a group of people who have not harmed you in any way whatsoever”
Is it possible, in your opinion, for people to disagree and still love each other? I admit that my actions have never been perfect, but to be accused of being unkind and judgmental just for having an opinion seems a bit much.
“All the people who insist that…”
I honestly don’t care what comes next in that statement. When someone is willing to lump “All the people” into something, they tend not to care about the people they talking to, only how early they can squeeze others into their pre-defined (and, more often than not, incorrect) labels. Have you met “and ll the people?” If not, how can you say what “all the people” think & feel?
Isn’t that a bit unkind and judgmental of you?
Have a great day!
Joe
Joe, I think the basic assumption we have to start with here, no matter how loving you think you are, is that as someone who is responding to questions directed at people who disagree with Obergfell, you would prefer to deny your gay family members and friends equal protection under law. You would prefer to deny them the right to the same legal and social benefits straight people enjoy in marriage. So instead of complaining about the “condescension” in thinking that this is a peculiar brand of “love”, let’s first go back and answer some of those questions.
The thing about allowing for grey in your thinking, Paul, is it comes with a sense of openness about the people you’re speaking with. What facts that I shared lead you to believe I think the state of marriage prior to the recent Supreme Court Decision was fair? I don’t think the government should have anything to do with marriage. I think government should get out of the marriage business alrogether.
This is my issue with how these conversations tend to go. You either agree with IDEA X or you are a hateful bigot. There’s no room for us to be human.
There’s a lot of grey in this issue, Paul. I hope you can learn to see it some day.
Great article, Matthew. Brought up in a Christian home, went to a (judgmental) Christian school and though a few decades removed, thanks to the joy of social media, I get to stay in virtual contact with all the right wing, brainwashed, borderline racist, homophobic, Jesus-lovin’ folk I grew up with—shouting their beliefs from the rooftops, despite no one asking what they had to say.
You really hit home with the sentiment that straight Christians loves to put homosexuality on a pedestal; which is the reason I don’t bother engaging with friends or family on this topic. Honestly, it’s what has driven me from the church, though I find myself rooted in Christ’s love, guidance and heart for me on a daily basis.
Why is there so much fist-shaking and scripture quoting right now in regards to gay marriage, abortion or transgender lifestyles, but not the same type of reaction to divorce, infidelity and everything that is a much bigger threat to ‘traditional marriage’?
What about greed, ego and dishonestly in one’s career; leading to compromised morals and chasing worldly rewards over spiritual gifts?
I recall my college years and rolling into church with a then-girlfriend; who I was having sex with and practically living with. No one batted an eye; but if we were a gay couple in a committed relationship we’d have been shunned—despite the sin being exactly the same; premarital sex.
(Ironically, that gay couple might’ve longed to get married and make their union official, while I knew at the time I wanted no part of marrying said girl.)
All this to say, my heart hurts. I have a lot of liberal friends who know where I stand on my faith; and I simply treat them with love and a live and let live mentality. I am in no position to judge anyone for their sin and certainly don’t want them critiquing mine.
Furthermore, I tread carefully when choosing to quote scripture from a book written by three dozen authors in Aramaic—knowing that my Christian “brethren” are big on picking and choosing verses to back their cases, while quickly discarding others, which you tastefully explained above.
I fear this faith we share has gotten so intertwined with social issues; republican versus democrat, right wing versus left, CNN versus FOX, pro life versus pro choice, black versus white (literally and figuratively.)
Winning others over to your of thinking; that seems to have superseded grace, love, patience, understanding and doing unto others as we’d have done to us.
Sadly, I don’t see how or where this turns or how thing ever get any better. Sad times for our nation—though for none of the reasons the anti-gay marriage crowd believes.
You asked, “What if you’re wrong?” Then I’m wrong. Honestly. It’s as simple as that. If I’m wrong, then I’m wrong, homosexuality is not a sin, same-sex marriage is A-OK, and we can all move on with our lives and get back to arguing about Abortion or Harry Potter or whatever hot button issue comes up.
Very easy to say, Joe—but it’s a cop out and where are the repercussions for said actions and fighting against a belief and lifestyle that disagrees with yours?
Not attacking you personally, but anyone who has spent time quoting verses and pounding the pulping that homosexuality is a sin; it has often been done in a way that causes good people to shun the faith or reject Christ’s love because of those folks on this planet who claim things in the name of Jesus and then show zero grace in how dealing with those who believe in a different set of rules.
You’re diminishing the power behind Matthew’s question here and cheapening it with some joke about moving on to another hot button topic.
If you’re wrong, then no, it’s far from “as simple as that”. If that side is wrong, there’s a lot of apologizing, repair and irreparable damage that results from it.
People have lived in shame, ended their lives, had fallouts with family and friends over whether this issue is right or wrong and IF the Christian right wing is wrong, for the sake of the question posed by this topic, at least humor the author here and play out that scenario with a little reality and respect, going through the intended exercise.
You and Matt sound very much not in the Grey. And I guess that will always be that, no matter what anyone says you will be right and anyone else who thinks otherwise is wrong. But good thing is its all Alright and God loves us all and has forgiven us for been wrong be it me be it you. Shalom brother.
How do you take that from anything I wrote on this page, Teresa? The comment you responded to—another poster seemed to trivialize and make light of what was a very logical question by the author. I didn’t use the platform here to judge, I asked questions and am seeking well-thought out answers.
I don’t call anyone else “wrong” as that’s not my job to do—but I ask those who are wagging a finger at all of this to explain why they have such a burning desire to attack gay marriage but don’t show that same fervor for other sins that are destroying marriage; infidelity, the act of divorce itself, putting career, power and earnings over being a Godly spouse or parent.
Those against gay marriage will spout off verses regarding Sodom and Gomorrah, but why are they not as quick to pull out Matthew 5:32 when it comes to Christ’s thoughts on divorce—which is ruining “traditional marriage” much more than the notion of two same-sex individuals joining together?
I also agree that this “Well then, oops, I guess I was wrong” is an inadequate response. If you asked me what I would do if I suddenly realized that being affirming of LGBT inclusion was wrong and I said “Oops, then I guess I was wrong,” would you accept that as a valid answer? I’m not insinuating, I’m genuinely curious. Does your excuse for the possibility of error extend to the other side as well? Does grace cover both of us?
Sam, I’m as confused and torn on all this as anyone. I see such a rift forming between two sides that are both chock with a lot of good, quality, loving people. I also see a lot of bad on both sides and folks that don’t know up from down.
It’s a touch subject and yes, thank God that grace is offered to all of us. Lord knows I need it more than most…
If you suddenly realized you were wrong and had not attacked me, I would be alright with that answer. Even if you had attacked me, I’d probably be okay with it.
The difference between people like me and, prsumable, people like Matt and Harry is I don’t equate mere disagreements with personal attacks. You don’t have to apologize to me for thinking I’m wrong: only for punching me in the face.
Grace covers us all. Always
Hi Harry,
You said “Not attacking you personally, but anyone who has spent time quoting verses and pounding the pulping that homosexuality is a sin; it has often been done in a way that causes good people to shun the faith or reject Christ’s love because of those folks on this planet who claim things in the name of Jesus and then show zero grace in how dealing with those who believe in a different set of rules.”
You’re asking me to apologize. I’m more than willing to do that. If you’ll just share a specific list of thing I personally have done to cause harm to other people, I’ll be glad to apologize for those actions.
…And therein lies the problem. You apply a generalized idea (I see a lot of Christians acting poorly) to a specific person and expect them to fit your mischaracterization.
You and Matt seem to say that EVERYONE (not just some ore most but EVERYONE) who disagrees with the SCOTUS decision must be the type of person who scream Bible verses from a megaphone and throw Bibles at people like Roger Clemens tossing roided out fastballs.
That’s not the case. Yes, it happens, but the caricature (that’s what your apparent idea of “those who disagree with me” is … a wild caricature) does not often fit reality.
You never asked, but I’ll share anyway. I don’t believe in confronting people with scripture unless we already have a close relationship and have agreed that calling each other out on sin issues is something were okay with. I’ve only confront two people my entire life with versus I believe speak against homosexuality. One was a guy I’ve been friends with since I was 6 months old. Another was a guy who had been in a church small group with for several years. In both cases, everyone involved was (and still is) a Christian. In both cases, the men decided to live open, gay lifestyles. In both cases, we are still close friends and still call each other out on sin issues (we have agreed to disagree about homosexuality).
My life motto is “Don’t be a d*ck.” No matter how much I disagree, no matter how mean someone is, I try my best not to be a d*ck to people.
What about that, Harry, requires asking for forgiveness?
Joe
There’s this pervasive idea in Christian culture that if we show the least amount of kindness or civility toward someone with whom we disagree, then that kindness will be misinterpreted as approval. In other words, “We can’t approve of this, therefore we cannot extend kindness toward anybody who engages in it.” And at the same time, we say “Love the sinner; hate the sin.” And that’s actually a load of horse shit. Because generally when Christians say that, what they really mean is “Hate the sinner because of the sin.” Where’s the love? Where’s the kindness? Remember, 1 John 4 talks about how if we don’t love, we don’t know God. Remember, we are to love even our enemies. Remember what love is in 1 Cor 13? Where’s the love (which is a Fruit of the Spirit)? And for that matter, goodness, graciousness, peace, self control? Where’s the kindness? We could argue for days and weeks and months and years about the actual Greek meaning of six clobber verses in the Bible. We could lob hateful rhetoric in this holy war against the gays about Sodom and Gomorrah, and about who will and won’t inherit the kingdom of God. We could split hairs about what the meaning of “is” is. We could use the Bible to beat people over the heads with because we don’t agree on it’s textual meaning.
Or we could shut our fat holy faces and just love each other, which is the highest commandment, regardless of how others interpret Scripture or who they define as their “Person to call in case of emergency.” If we love each other, the love of God is made perfect in us. For me, that’s enough.
THANK YOU.
… brilliant, Casey. Love this.
I would love to share this, but the one I know who REALLY disagrees with me, just unfriended me. And his wife is still my Facebook friend. And they still run the Christian singles retreat I go to every year. The ONLY retreat I go to … HEY! Maybe I can find another one to go to!
D’OH!
But we were friends since 1995 and I had just turned 30 – and had only been in Christ 9 years.
I hate the thought of losing a friend. But I guess that any friendship based on my being willing to turn straight – is no real friendship.
I am a gay, white man. I have had a dear friend of many years who is straight and black. One day we were comparing the struggles we had both faced in our lives because of color and/or sexual orientation. After a lengthy discussion, he said to me, “The bottom line is that you can hide your sexual orientation, but I cannot hide my color. Poor you! You cannot be yourself to the world. I, on the other hand, have no choice.”
God loves us both, inspite of our circumstances and our desires. I am on a journey toward faith. The road I am on is my road. My black friend is on his road. We are all on our own road. We are on the road we are supposed to be on. We will all arrive at the end of the road eventually. There are no prizes given for getting there ahead of the pack. I have made the best progress on my journey whenever I did not try to make God into my image. He is far more perfect than I.
God Bless you. You got it!
I’ve heard comments like the one from your black friend before and they are usually meant to shut down debate regarding comparison to civil rights. Except it is a judgmental comment that puts forth a false argument that one is worse than the other. Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t. I’ve thought about this a lot. At the end of the day, it is true that black people cannot hide their color. However, at least they have loving families, spouses, and communities to come home too after being out in the world. While in contrast, many gay people are shunned by their own families and kicked out into the streets. Hiding your orientation, hiding your struggle to find love and companionship, hiding the ability to simply be, is a 24/7 exhaustive drama that isolates people from each other and can drive people away from God. Jesus never rejected those that had been marginalized by society. He invited them to his table. Vile comments from Christians drive people away from God. And it is the hypocrisy of discrimination that Christians exhibit by singling out gay people as an abomination yet say nothing about divorced couples marrying again and again. Or say nothing when atheists get married. Or refusing to shame couples that engage in pre-marital sex before marriage. Even the tired axiom of “love the sinner hate the sin” is destructive because what you are implying is that gay people cannot be 100% human. Christians are telling gay people that they cannot seek love and find meaning in the context of matrimony. They cannot form families and seek to be united with a spouse because society says their relationships are not worthy of marriage. Yet marriage is a deeply spiritual sacrament that unites two people together with God. By denying gay people this privilege, Christians are denying gay people a holy path to God. So when a Christian says they are against gay marriage and follows it up with “If I’m wrong, then I’m wrong,” well, it means a great, great deal. But if you are right about whether homosexuality is a sin, well, it shouldn’t and doesn’t matter to you at all. That’s between God and the homosexual. God’s grace is bigger than all of us.
Thank you, Matthew. I appreciate the questions, they’re so much easier in a conversation than statements or, worse, opinions.
I want to just keep repasting the last question over and over. No one has to AGREE with gay marriage. No one. But we can all co-exist, yes, EVEN amidst our differences, without judgment. When else does it happen that the rest of the world begs the Christians to have mercy? Christians, who are supposed to be loving, forgiving, and kind? Only on gay marriage, that’s when. There are SO many things people do that are sins, but for some reason, this is the one that “destroys” Christians. Really? It destroys you and makes you sad? Because your hate and anti-gay stigma makes people depressed, suicidal, and ends lives. The fact that that matters so little is what makes ME sad.
We could all just let God judge, as the bible tells us to do. As a previous comment stated, it’s just become a matter of, “We can’t approve of this, therefore we cannot extend kindness toward anybody who engages in it.”. It really doesn’t have to be this way, but it will likely continue to be. Even though we could all co-exist in disagreement, but still loving and not judging one another just like we do on MANY other lifestyle aspects. I am sorry, but this is why so many people leave the church. On all matters, let God judge, not you.
It’s simple. Following ur heart has no judgement on self therefore having no judgement on ur peers. Following ur mind is where all the separation has occurred causing all of ur suffering. Allowing yourself to see where your thoughts are deriving from allows yourself to see what truth is. If your feeling suffering then you are allowing yourself to be directed from your mind. If you feel at peace then you have surrendered your judgement to your higher self allowing your pure intention to radiate from your heart space. Love thyself and your suffering will cease to exist. Aho
I really found this article was written from a perspective designed to equate Christian faith with fear. As a Christian, I find that offensive. I have no fear of homosexuality. I do have a strong belief that every person is a child of God and loved by God. I also believe that every person is responsible for their own sin- it’s between them and God. And as for that last question? Of course God can handle any and all things without my input! That doesn’t mean I’m not supposed to think and feel and decide things for myself, and to suggest that is ridiculous.
1. Given the statement made at the end of this post it seems to call into question why the post was posted in the first place.
2.http://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2015/07/01/40-questions-for-christians-now-waving-rainbow-flags/
This is the best article I’ve read on this issue. I am a Christian. I love Jesus. I also am pro-LGBTQ rights. I don’t believe homosexuality is a sin. I’ve come to that conclusion from doing a lot of research on the true meaning of the verses people use to condemn homosexuality (they are actually condemning male on male rape and the forced prostitution of young boys, but that is a discussion for a different, much longer post) and I came to that conclusion through the conviction of the inner Light (Holy Spirit).
The question I ask myself when it comes to things like this is simple- “Has loving other people too much ever been declared a sin?” I am not afraid of meeting my maker and answering to it if I’m wrong about homosexuality, because the only thing I’ve done is love and try to show the LGBTQ community God’s love. I don’t quite understand how people who spew hateful rhetoric about people they don’t even know can put their head on a pillow at night.
Thank you, Matthew, for putting into words so eloquently what so many of us have tried to express to other Christians who don’t share our views.
The “inner light.” More like, your heart is desperately wicked, and deceived you. Sorry…but you are very wrong on this one.
It amazes and disappoints me that we have allowed this debate to rage and become so polarized between people who have chosen a God and a set of rules – and then used those choices to marginalize and diminish those who have chosen only to live their lives. The particular god and his word being used as a cudgel to smite this particular group of sinners came to be imagined, described and canonized in another space and time – among a primitive people struggling to survive in a hostile world we barely recognize as civilized today. And yet the fundamentalists waging societal genocide on these people they have determined to be sinners seem to disregard the notion that their sacredly held beliefs and judgments have no place in a country governed by a set of doctrines adopted by contemporary citizens which promises equal protection under the law for a population of equals. Nothing in our Constitution precludes anyone from believing whatever mystical notions they choose – but the same Article that provides for this freedom protects those of other self-imagined and strictly embraced creeds from the threat of religious tyranny by another group. This debate has been framed as the threat to the veracity of religious dogma posed by those living outside the current version of spiritual laws vs. the threat to civil liberty enjoyed by those who have opted to be true to their natural genetic makeup and gender identity. Perhaps it could be framed better as a discussion of why those who have chosen and embraced a particular set of myths and directives feel their choice gives them the privilege of abridging the freedoms of those whose reality is contrary to what they consider to be ancient xenophobic folk tales.
I am SO thankful that you wrote this post. Bravo! While I live in a progressive part of the country where this issue was already resolved over a year ago, I know that Friday’s decision has been seen as a major threat in other parts of the country. You asked some fantastic questions here and I hope people take them to heart!
If you’re interested in an honest reply to your questions that are not based on hate, but instead based on biblical study and faith in the Word of God – then please read on.
*** What if you’re wrong?
The Bible makes it very clear that homosexuality is a sin. Like any other sin, it’s condemned, along with any institutions that support it. (e.g. homosexual marriage) There is no gray area with wording like: “It is an abomination”; “shameless act”; “detestable act”; “homosexuals shall [not] inherit the kingdom of God”; “depraved mind”; “degrading passions”; “debased mind”; “sexual immorality”
It’s a huge stretch to believe the Bible, and therefore God, does not condemn homosexuality.
I have no right to claim to be either “right” or “wrong”. It’s God that determines it.
Of course I believe I’m right. Anybody who has an opinion that they don’t believe in should probably shop around for another opinion, otherwise what’s the point in having that opinion? I try to make sure all my opinions are based on fact and/or wise, knowledgeable leadership. No one qualifies better than God for that.
I think you also need to ask yourself: What if YOU’RE wrong?
*** What if you’re right?
Any true Christian will not feel any kind of pleasure that other people reject God and end up in eternal punishment. No true Christian wants that to happen. Also, no true Christian would believe “God really is a grandiose being with borderline personality disorder”.
*** If you’re a parent, what is your reaction to Friday’s verdict teaching your kids?
I am a parent with 6 kids and 5 of them are in favor of the SCOTUS decision. I have no problem at all identifying God’s clearly-stated position on the subject. It’s just like any other sin, in that a particular sin does not condemn a person – after all we’re all sinners in one way or another – but trusting in God’s love and guidance can steer us around habitual sin.
And all 5 of them, if they don’t know Jesus, SHOULD be terrified that the end is coming. And they should also understand that it isn’t homosexuality itself that is bringing that end to them.
If my child was a practicing homosexual, I would treat it as any other sinful activity – drugs, drunkenness, theft, etc. I would stand up and speak out against it. But ultimately it’s they’re decision.
However, there is this caveat:
It’s possible to be homosexual, while not practicing homosexuality. That is not sin. I recently engaged in an on-line discussion with a gentleman I did not know. His words to me were resounding:
“My parents sent me to a child psychiatrist when I was ten years old, well before the onset of puberty, because they thought I might be gay. They were right. I lived with another man in a monogamous, unbroken, loving relationship for 45 years until his death five years ago. I was saved a year after that, but I still have same-sex attractions and feelings. That is my point: my condition remains homosexual but my thoughts and actions do not, because I have given my life to Jesus Christ and remain covenantly celibate.
*** Who have you silenced?
A Christian who is supportive of homosexual marriage is not a student of the Scriptures, and I’d be glad to discuss with them the reasons why I say that.
I completely disagree with the discrimination of homosexuals with regard to employment (except in an evangelical organization), housing, retail (except in cases where the vendor is forced to compromise their own faith be providing a product or service), etc.
A pastor of an evangelical church who openly identifies his/her support for homosexual marriage should not only lose financial support, but should also lose his/her job. There is nothing evangelical about homosexuality.
*** What are you losing in this fight?
Teaching children right from wrong is never a “gamble”. Its purpose may not be achieved, but it’s not a gamble. It’s a parental responsibility.
Obviously, God is “big enough” to handle this fight without my help. But He tells us to rebuke and correct. That’s what this fight is about … or SHOULD be about. Not about hate.
As a Christian, I’m required by God to love everyone. That’s really a tough assignment for me when it comes to ISIS, rapists, murderers, etc. But when it comes to regular people – homosexual or not – I’m pretty good most of the time at following God’s commandment. And that applies to the guy across the street that’s cheating on his wife … the homosexual couple down the street … the guy at work who’s cheating on his income tax … the guy at the grocery store who samples the grapes without paying for them … etc.
That’s what true Christians are compelled to do. That’s what I try to do. Just because I disagree with you or what you’re doing, and stand up for principles that you don’t, doesn’t mean I hate you.
Ken,
I hope many read your carefully, well thought-out, crafted reply. If only to at least understand the the difference is that it is not based on how WE FEEL or what would be nice to FEEL, but to properly discern what we have clearly been given in Truth and adhere to that standard not our relative own truths. Both the Truth of the Word (written revelation) and the Works (natural revelation) of God’s creation. This is written on the hearts of men (Romans 2:14-16). However, the temptation to act upon our emotions to whatever our current cultural norm happens to be seems to be so strong to gain personal approval from men in the name of Christ.
Ken, what you are not addressing is the damage Christians are inflicting because of the singling out of homosexuality versus every other sin. There is a certain veracity with which Christians are going after homosexuals, even willing to move Heaven and earth, to shame, block, pass legislation, and nullify gay relationships. Then those same people claim religious freedom when others question their motives. Where are the Christians calling for legislation to outlaw divorce? Where are the protests when two people apply for a marriage license for the second, third, or fourth time? No one bats an eye when they elect politicians to represent them that have previously been married (let alone be guilty of other transgressions). Yes, I know this seems silly. But divorce is a sin as it also says in the Bible. Jesus himself says that any one who divorces is an adulterer. God even says he “hates” divorce (Malachi 2:16). Even if you believe that homosexuality is a sin, it differs from all of the other sins you mention because it is the only one where you are asking a person to cease loving. You can stop drinking, stealing, cheating, lying, using drugs… but you never ask that person to stop loving. You are asking the homosexual to live outside of societal relationships. In effect, you are condemning them to a life of fornication by denying them access to the covenant of marriage. As I wrote above, I believe that this attitude denies the homosexual a holy pathway to God. How do you know that you are not wrong? Even Christianity once believed the earth was flat. They imprisoned Galileo for saying otherwise. The church once burned mentally ill people at the stake because they were convinced that they were possessed by the devil (based on their understanding of the Bible). These attitudes changed as society learned more about the universe and humanity. Neither of these facts nullifies Christianity. Accepting these new truths didn’t mean abandoning the faith. No one should be afraid of the truth. Christ said “I am the way, and the truth, and the life” (John 14:6). If a long-held belief is revealed to be false based on a new set of facts, then that belief need to change. Otherwise it is not faith, but certainty. The funny thing about certainty is that we often are, until we’re not. Jesus never marginalized or shamed anyone. Ever. Except the Pharisees, whom he beleived to be following the letter of the law instead of its spirit. When the apostle Peter tried to stop Jesus from continuing on to Jerusalem to continue his mission, he rebuked him with “Get behind me, Satan” (Matthew 16:23). I’m sure that Peter felt resasonably certain that he understood the scriptures and God’s will. How do you, how do Christians, know that they are not Peter today? After reading all of the nuanced and heartfelt arguments that people of good conscience are making in defense of homosexuals, how can you still see their relationships as morally disordered? I hope your answer is more than simply “because it says so in a book written thousands of years ago.”
Matt,
As noted in an earlier comment, by starting with a phrase like “Jesus-loving folks who seemingly believe that they own the copyright on what God thinks about marriage”, you appear to be judging and dismissing anyone who disagrees with the SCOTUS decision or, more importantly from my perspective, believe that the biblical texts do not license gay sex & marriage. This gives me the sense that you do not want so much an honest dialogue as to provoke or bait your more conservative brethren.
Let me suggest both as a response to your questions and as an example of how we can disagree respectfully, the review by Tim Keller to the books by Matthew Vines and Ken Wilson – http://www.redeemer.com/redeemer-report/article/the_bible_and_same_sex_relationships_a_review_article.
To summarize, the whole idea is “I am right and you’re wrong, but you don’t think you’re wrong because you are stubborn”. This is only one side of the debate. The other side may make the same statement.
I am a pastor. I’ve read all these posts and am amazed at how many think they know what God is saying. For instance – God is saying that homosexuality is a sin. I would suggest that you not listen to sound bytes but actually put yourself in the biblical context of the time – read through the lens of a middle eastern person – actually find out what the customs of the day were and that includes IN the Jewish community. One thing – quite simple – why are so many going back to the OT (which I seriously doubt they truly understand anyway) and grab prohibitions from that time when the NT has Jesus saying VERY specifically that there should be no divorce. Is there any Christian denomination that hasn’t ignored this NT prohibition? So tell me, if we can ignore this from the NT Jesus – what makes Leviticus so important?
I’m a Baptist youth and college minister in a tiny town in the south. I am also gay. Though I am out to my friends and family, I’m committed to celibacy (for the moment) and a professional closeting while I’m in these two positions.
The things that have been said in my small SBC church after this decision have been… well.. Christlike isn’t the word that comes to mind. We had a Sunday night prayer meeting a few nights ago, and I just silently cried as one of the ladies of the church prayed that the “wicked destroyers of all that we hold holy” would either repent or face judgement. Judgement. She prayed that if I didn’t renounce this integral part of who I am, that if I didn’t go against the very nature God created within me, she prayed that I would face eternal judgement. In hell. Forever separated from the God I have served and loved from age 11. I didn’t say anything else that night. Everyone left, I turned off the sound system, projectors, and lights and waved goodbye to the pastor as I walked out, stunned.
No one that night prayed, “God we are wicked destroyers of all that is holy because we have overlooked the poor, promoted racism, and treated your earth like shit”. No one prayed, “God, may we follow you closer.” No one implied that they might not know everything there is to know about the mind of God.
I don’t want my church to throw me a pride parade. I don’t want my church to advertise my sexuality. But I do want my church to follow Jesus closely and not wish anyone, anyone (even “dirty gay whores”) to face the judgement that they still think exists for most of the world.
Maybe one day I can be out in a church. Maybe one day I can even share the ministry with a man I love. But for today, I’d be happy to see the church begin to wrestle. To put down their swords for just a second and pray that God would lead them in love.
Thank you for your words Matthew.