As you likely know, Matt Chandler is the pastor of The Village Church, a Southern Baptist and neo-reformed mega church in the Dallas area boasting a weekly attendance of 11,000. Chandler is also the president of the Acts29 network, and one of the many pastors who signed that letter to Mark Driscoll.
On May 23, Chandler’s church sent its membership one doozy of a letter, a letter laced with a plethora of reformed catchphrases and dogma, a letter detailing the reasons why the church has put Karen Hinkley (formerly Karen Root) under “church discipline.”
Karen, along with her now ex-husband, Jordan Root, were sent out (by the church and Serving in Mission) as missionaries last August to South Asia. Then, in December, Jordan confessed to viewing child pornography.
According to Karen: “The discovery of Jordan’s pedophilia and use of child pornography was an indescribable shock and triggered a thorough upheaval of every aspect of my life.” SOURCE
And she couldn’t be more correct…
After Jordan’s confession, the church brought them home from the mission field. They put Jordan through some “path toward repentance.” And they chided Karen for wanting her marriage to be over.
Still, 4 weeks after returning home, Karen filed for her marriage to be annulled.
Her church’s reaction? Whoa, slow down. And they sent her letter after letter, seeking reconciliation of Jordan and Karen’s marriage. And then, when she didn’t respond?
They issued church discipline… dear God…
“Karen’s decision to pursue immediate annulment, to decline any attempt of reconciliation, to disregard her Membership Covenant and pastoral counsel, and to break fellowship with the body has led her into formal church discipline. While members in good standing are free to leave the church and seek membership elsewhere, those in the disciplinary process have covenanted to see that process through before leaving the church. Because of this, we have attempted to fulfill our biblical commitment to love and care for her according to the Membership Covenant she affirmed and subsequently renewed on multiple occasions. ” READ THE CHURCH’S FULL ACTIONS HERE.
But the thing is, Karen had resigned from the church. That’s right. She’d asked to be removed from their membership. But according to Christian Today, the church sent Karen a letter and declined her request to part ways.
(EDITOR’S NOTE: I mistakenly credited Christianity Today with this link. My apologies for the misinformation. It is my understanding that Christianity Today is working on a story about this topic.)
“The letter asks for forgiveness for any shortcomings on the church’s part, but says that “we have been perplexed by your decision to file for an annulment of your marriage without first abiding by your covenant obligations to submit to the care and direction of your elders…this decision violates your covenant with us – and places you under discipline”. Younger adds that the church’s bylaws prohibit a member voluntarily resigning while they are subject to the formal disciplinary process.” SOURCE.
“This decision violates your covenant with us – and places you under discipline”?? What? Is this the 1600s? Are they gonna call her a witch next? I mean, come on…
But Karen stayed strong, holding to her position that she didn’t want anything to do with The Village Church. And that she didn’t want anything to do with Jordan either.
And for good reason…
She says: “Jordan’s admitted pedophilia and use of child pornography over many years is no small thing. The child pornography industry relies on the exploitation and abuse of children and their bodies, and the use of child pornography harms children by driving the demand for more. What is even more disturbing than his use of child pornography is that throughout the duration of these years, Jordan sought and gained access to a large number of children, many of whom represent some of the most vulnerable populations of children in our society. His ability to successfully manipulate others is evidenced by the complete trust that was placed in him by many parents, companies, churches, and organizations over the course of these years. It is my sincere hope that Jordan has not sexually abused any children, but I believe the circumstances warrant his exposure so that any victims who might be out there can be identified and given an opportunity for justice and healing.” SOURCE
Karen goes on to say: “The inclination towards minimization and secrecy that the pastors and elders of The Village Church have displayed is inexcusable. And the spiritual abuse I have experienced at their hands is unacceptable from those who would represent Jesus Christ. Jesus cares deeply for the vulnerable and the voiceless. He speaks strongly against those who would victimize children, and he went toe-to-toe with the religious bullies of his day who “tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.” (Matthew 23) The treatment of Jordan as the victim and me as the perpetrator by the leadership of the church is an appalling reversal that evidences priorities that are not in line with the Word of God.” SOURCE
According to the church: “In similar counsel from our elders, SIM has given Karen a gracious six-month leave to pursue healing but also required that she be reconciled to The Village Church before they would consider sending her back to the mission field. She also declined SIM’s counsel, abandoning her request to return to the mission field.”
But seriously, what on earth is Matt Chandler and his band of elders thinking? Jordan and Karen’s marrage is over. Period. And the State of Texas has sided with Karen, not that that should matter. They’ve gone to great lengths to reconcile with Jordan. And put Karen through hell, choosing to put her under “church discipline” and refusing her desire to resign from their membership! What? How inhumane. How unChristian. And how Puritan…
And in addition to that, they decided to shame her decision in an 8-page letter to the membership of a mega church.
Once again, a powerful and seemingly arrogant church is further abusing a victim, failing to see past their rigid bylaws and theology and choosing law over humanity.
Have some mercy, Matt Chandler. Retract your church’s actions toward Karen immediately. Stop playing “God”… and get off your church/theological high horse.
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In a word….”gross.”
Readers:
Articles like this are written in attempts to persuade an audience to believe their the writer’s thoughts on the matter. The problem is that it only highlights one perspective. The writer has thoughts on this matter, and will ONLY use facts that support his theory, which means the facts that disprove his ideas are simply left out. The fact that this was even written without full details indicates an immaturity that cannot be trusted. The reality is, unless you were directly connected to this situation, you all know nothing about this situation. To write this article is immature, but to be persuaded by this article would also indicate an immaturity that can’t be trusted. Do any of you know Matt Chandler? Do any of you know Karen? Do any of you know her husband? If the answer is no, then you have no knowledge, nor do you have a position to speak. Venomous words such as these are divisive, and division is from the enemy. Be alert. As a believer, the same love that is owed to Karen in this horrible situation, is also owed to Matt Chandler and his elders. Please pray for all those involved in this, more often than you condemn.
The same love is owed both Karen and Matt, but not the same judgment will be given, so Joe (and I think I know which Joe we’re dealing with here), you need to read your Bible, read about the greater judgment that is upon those who think they have the ability to teach, and perhaps mature a bit yourself in Christ (assuming that you know Him and that that is possible) and also read up on what the Bible says about having nothing to do with the works of evil, but instead, exposing them.
Seems to me your biggest problem is with the Lord Himself, go ask Him why He inspired those Scriptures.
“Have nothing to do with fruitless works of evil but instead, expose them.”
Ephesians 5:11
Expose evil, yes. But you have a predisposition that what has been done is evil. Evil is not defined by what you think or feel. Evil is defined by the Bible alone. I fully believe that evil should be exposed as Paul exhorted, but you don’t get to define what is evil and what is good. The bible does. Whether it feels all warm in your heart or not. And there is a Biblical process by which we expose and confront evil (Matthew 18), and it is not via cowardly blogs.
Please don’t use Scriptures that you prefer (Ephesians 5), so as to promote your point, while excluding the Scriptures you do not prefer (Matthew 18). I realize that the Biblical call on elders to confront and discipline sin does not make anyone feel all fuzzy, but the fact that they are not running away from the most difficult of callings for a shepherd or overseer, demonstrates a level of courage and boldness that is virtually non existent in this country. They are aware of the weight of their calling, and blogs like this only add unnecessary weight and cause more pain. Blogs like this are the reason why pastors are urged to deeply consider the weight of their calling, because when you are faithful to God’s word, you will be persecuted.
Amen. Joe you are spot on in high of your responses.
both (not high)
Amen again Joe…
So Mike, jacob and Joe are just fine with the evasions, incomplete truths and lies of their leadership in this situation. They are also fine with ousting a person who was betrayed in marriage and at the same time welcoming into fellowship, paying legal costs, and paying for occasional therapy of a person who has incompletely confessed his pedophilia.
What a testimony to the mature character and deep wisdom that humanity can reach without effort!
Joe please read all of Matthew 18.
Joe, if you cannot define pedophilia as evil, your judgement and ability to discern anything is useless.
Joe – I agree with others here; You have responded tremendously to this article, and to the extremely difficult and controversial situation that it presents to us (especially those of us reading this who have very limited knowledge of the entire situation). As a pastor myself, I recognize the biblical wisdom demonstrated by Village Church (and Matt Chandler) in this situation, regardless of the hostile responses that it has drawn from the public.
Church discipline is definitely NOT the easy or popular way for church leaders to proceed in response to Karen, but that doesn’t mean that it’s not biblical. The problem isn’t that Village Church is behaving in as awful a way as many people seem to think they are, but rather that most Christians are so unfamiliar with true church discipline (since precious few churches actually practice it) that they don’t even recognize it when they see it being practiced by a particular church.
Whether the elders handled the situation as perfectly as could be expected – or whether their more recent and “softer” response to Karen is more appropriate – will surely continue to be debated. One thing is for sure, though, the article posted above only presents one particular perspective on the issue – one that is critical of Matt Chandler and Village Church – and it doesn’t provide any BIBLICAL justification for doing so (apart from a reference to Matthew 23, which doesn’t directly relate to this situation).
On a related note, I am very disappointed by the derogatory use of the word “Puritan” (especially in comparison to the terms “inhumane” and “unChristian”!), since the Puritans represent one of the healthiest eras of church history, from which MUCH sound theology and edifying preaching has been passed along to modern Christians! If only our churches WERE more Puritan today…how much healthier the (earthly) body of Christ would be!
In any case, I believe that this article would have been more helpful – and would have generated more fruitful conversation among readers – if the personal opinions being shared by its author had been minimized and the emphasis had been placed on what’s true and factual, and on what the Bible literally says regarding these difficult subjects.
Let’s not use scripture filled with rape, torture, slavery, and murder at all, but rather rely on the much more powerful human morality.
Joe, what happened in Chandler’s church is NOT church discipline as described by Matthew 18. First, Matthew 18 does not recognize church elders as having a unique role in the discipline process. Anyone can confront a brother (or sister) who is sinning. It is only a matter for the corporate church to deal with as a last resort. There is nothing in Scripture that makes elders (or deacons or pastors or whoever) the beginning and end of the discipline process, but that is apparently how it works at TVC.
Second, lust is adultery (Matthew 5) and adultery is biblical grounds for divorce. Karen had that from Jesus, and she did not need permission from a human leader to act on it. In fact, I see nothing in Matthew 5 or 1 Corinthians 7 that obliges a Christian to get leadership approval for any kind of divorce. If the Christian leaves a spouse for reasons not biblical, then certainly he or she can be challenged by the process described in Matthew 18, but again, this high-handed method practiced by Chandler and his colleagues is nowhere to be found in Matthew 18.
Finally, where in the NT can you possibly find justification for refusing to terminate her membership at her request? She was the member of a community of believers, not an indentured servant.
I thought I was done, but you know what? Anyone who believes that pedophiles (or any abusers, for that matter) are not lying, manipulative control-freaks is incredibly naive. What in the world was a counseling session with someone like that supposed to accomplish? Especially since moving back in with him would have ruined her case for an annulment (per Texas law).
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If God had not created man… man would have created God.
I have to agree with Joe as well. Couldn’t have expressed it better. What else could have Chandler done but admit he was wrong and repent. He did that.
I’ve read the e-mails and the responses. And I’ve even called up and e-mailed pastors named in The Village Church’s side of the e-mails. Have I heard back from them? Nope, and I even left my Real Name and cell phone number (which very few people have). I believe Karen Hinkley and I believe The Village Church has acted abominably here.
My family and I attend church there as much as possible. I invite you to come. God has lead me to this church and I love sharing it with others.
Pity.
I attend the church as well. However, the way TVC is handling this situation is wrong on so many levels. Nobody is perfect, we all make mistakes and that is just us being human AND that also includes these elders. Their failure to recognize that, ask for forgiveness and move forward shows their lack of spiritual maturity in this situation.
Not meaning to offend here, but the Village Church and her elder’s owe you know explanation whatsoever unless you are a covenant member there. So it’s not surprising that they didn’t answer you. Why would they?
There is nothing wrong with writing to persuade. Nearly all of Paul’s letters were arguments designed to dissuade the early church from particular practices. Most of these were often one sided arguments. In fact, nearly everything he said was extremely inflammatory to the Jewish leaders due to the divisions it caused. They eventually beheaded him for his “venomous” words, just as they crucified Jesus for his. Thinking about the alternative is not dangerous. Not thinking is dangerous. This article urges us to consider the alternative perspective apart from “the church did the right thing” simply because on presumed authority. Certainly no one except Karen and Jordan can truly know the whole story however, the article did a fine job sourcing, citing, and otherwise providing proof of statements. Furthermore, opinion in and of itself does not constitute immaturity. Believing a thing simply because it said it was true does however, does define naivety.
“An intellectual? Yes. And never deny it. An intellectual is someone whose mind watches itself. I like this, because I am happy to be both halves, the watcher and the watched. “Can they be brought together?” This is a practical question. We must get down to it. “I despise intelligence” really means: “I cannot bear my doubts.”
This is an awful situation, and it seems as if Karen has handled it with strength and grace, all things considered. I don’t know that I’ve ever witnessed a case of church discipline that went totally well for all parties involved. Karen hits the nail on the head perfectly here, spiritual abuse in abundance here. I pray she remains strong and that her relationship with God doesn’t suffer as a result of this fallout with the church.
When I make mistakes I know God doesn’t turn his back on me.
Exactly. I’m also delighted that God loves Karen so much.
And we all hope that Jordon will discipline himself to the long slow difficult path to redemption that is required to overcome his disorder and that has here-to-fore driven him into crime after crime against prepubescent children, particularly his favorites at age 4.
“While members in good standing are free to leave the church and seek membership elsewhere, those in the disciplinary process have covenanted to see that process through before leaving the church.”
This is so gross.
Josh look at it like this. If I was caught in adultery and rather than face my church family I just quit my church and went to a new one would the church be doing me any good to walk away in my sin. God does not make one sin bigger than another. They are after g er d out and redemption not keeping there numbers up or being a saving grace.
One big problem, Rob. She wasn’t in sin. She was in disagreement with a leadership who wanted her to remain married to a pedophile.
Unfortunately she is. She made covenants with both the church and her husband. She is by refusing to attempt reconciliation and counsel breaking those. I fully agree that this man fid horrible things and should meet justice. Like her church I do not want you see her become a victim of society and dump her morales and b r lies because her heart has become hard by this pain.
An annulment can only be obtained when it is determined no marital covenant ever existed. She was granted one – leaving her zero obligation to her former husband. The church overstepped its bounds by telling she must remain in the marriage – breaking covenant with her in its role as wise counsel. Subjugation of victims is not discipline or guidance. It is control. Her only lack of judgement her was signing a covenantal agreement with the Village Church – especially when that covenant is used to supersede grace and wisdom.
Rob, people like you are the problem. You make someone else’s “horrible thing” an innocent bystander’s problem! I wouldn’t doubt if the husband sexually abused a child your advice to that child is to “get over it” or “forgive and forget”.
It’s people like you who don’t understand justice means facing consequences more than saying “I’m sorry, forgive me”. Those consequences are sometimes a divorce, prison time, or by not being socially accepted.
Rob this is the very reason not to make covenants with a church because you will get treatment like this. NO WHERE in Scripture is there ANY covenant agreements, as far as, members of a church. You just tell me where????
Matt Chandler is Scripture twisting and basically is a false teacher for demanding this of Karen and others. And believe me there is plenty of Scripture to back up the fact false teachers can invade and deceive the church.
Karen you just stand tall and proud! We all love you on the blogosphere!
as a (former) Catholic, let me say this is nonsense. By this logic all you Protestants are in sin. Luther, Henry, et. all. entered into a covenant relationship with the One True Church, right? The entire Reformation is a giant sin!
Unfortunately, Rob, you don’t seem to care what the Jesus says, because He specifically allowed for divorce in cases like this. He also specifically said the death penalty would be appropriate for harming little ones. Rob, wake up, open your eyes, perhaps seek Jesus, because you’re giving every indication you neither know Him nor care one whit what He has to say about matters.,
God said adultery is a reason to grant divorce. The fact is these transgressions happened before their marrige. You folks are missing the fact that we areal must gorgive. In God’s economy no sin is greater than another. To imply I don’t know Jesus because I want this woman you honor her covenants is crazy. Their is a real large possibility that she could not safely return to her marrige… but we don’t know because she just took what society said and abandoned the church who is standing with her and the husband she chose. If you don’t think God wants her to look to Him And the community He brought her too… you my friends are missing the point. Church is all about God and His offering of grace… if we don’t honor and extend it even when it’s uncomfortable we are fools and selfish
Rob, he has admitted to this behavior during their marriage. It was his active participation in pedophilia that led Karen to question him and his odd behavior. Stop defending the indefensible with inaccuracies.
Rob, actually the Bible says fornication is a reason for divorce. Not adultery. Fornication is much broader, and more people like you need to stop misquoting the Bible.
The Marraige covenant was broken when he chose to repeatedly look at child pornagraphy! Therefore she is not the one who broke the covenant- he did! She is free to go. End of story.
Karen is wrong and she knows it! She should have honored her covenant with the church. They may have counseled her to get a divorce or annulment but we will never know because she ran. Also, am i missing something or did Jordan just admit to viewing child porn not molesting children?
Jordan Root admitted to Karen that he had molested at least two children and that he had been in to child porn for years.
This is EXACTLY why I left the Baptist church. Bigoted, mysoginistic, arrogant. All humans are flawed, yes, but Baptists …. (particularly Southern Baptists) ….have turned it to an art form. This is the opposite of what I have found in the Presbyterian faith and the only reason I returned to the church. This all reminds me of the Catholic Church’s practice of unending and meaningless forgiveness of child rapists…always ready to forgive and hide the priests while sacrificing innocent children to be scarred for life. “One of the greatest risk factors for becoming a child molester is to have been molested as a child”.
If you want to be legalistic about it, then I would argue that signing a “church” covenant with extra-biblical rules and regulations constitutes making a “foolish vow.” In Leviticus, the one who had made a foolish vow could bring a sin offering, confess, and be released. Christ is the offering for sin, and it is for freedom that He has set us free (see Galatians). I do not believe that Karen is in any spiritual bondage to TVC, no matter what she signed. When the Son has set you free, you are free indeed. She owes obedience to Scripture, and no one else.
Are you against all acts of church discipline or just this particular case? Just curious.
Are you against staying on topic? Just curious.
Well number one, not sure what’s up with the hostility when I wasn’t addressing you? Number two it’s relevant for me to understand his position on this topic. Number three, your comment is off topic, while mine pertains to the issue at hand and yours is a waste of time.
It seems like the topic here is this particular case, rather than church discipline in general. By broadening the focus to ALL church discipline, you are muddying the waters, whether you mean to or not. No matter if you’re for church discipline or not, TVC was completely out of line here.
I think his question is absolutely relevant, especially for MPT, whose tribe has advocated little need for the church in general.
Paolo and Jonathan nailed it on the head. If MPT is against all church discipline, despite the fact it is very Biblical, then MPT is to be ignored.
You guys trying to win some points rather than hash out a deeply problematic issue in the Body, of which we all are part?
Feels like neener-neener to me.
The Village Church (TVC) says SIM “required that she be reconciled to The Village Church” – Is that really what SIM required? I’d like to see the documentation on that “requirement”. And even if that is SIM’s position, it is easy enough for TVC to accomplish. Tell everyone they support Karen’s decision 100% and that she is a former member in good standing. There, all reconciled.
These churches with “Covenant Members” are creating rules where none are required. That’s bad ecclesiology and, as we can see in this instance, bad doctrine can hurt people.
“Tell everyone they support Karen’s decision 100% and that she is a former member in good standing. There all reconciled.”
All the thumbs up.
yes, this is a twisting of SIM’s policy. I believe they have a policy which states that someone who works with them must be in good standing with a church and be sent out by a church (an excellent policy – in fact one that is in place to prevent people like Mr. Root from ‘mission hopping’ and remaining somewhat anonymous). HOWEVER, SIM did not say that she had to be in good standing with TVC. Just “a church”. big big difference there.
In fact, it appears from evidence that SIM was told something along the lines of all their missionaries would no longer be supported if SIM tried to send Karen with TVC as sending church. That is holding a missionary hostage and blackmailing a mission board. That is maybe the tactic of the mob but it sure ain’t Christian.
equal evils. Good for Karen.
When Calvin and co. set up church discipline in Geneva, a major concern was spousal abuse, so, it would actually be good to go back to a 1500s model. (Obviously the model is not really translatable, just saying there’s better historical precedent that VC should be aware of and inspired by)
Forgive my ignorance of mega church Protestantisms but how is one prevented from leaving the community? Also, for a creed that does not consider marriage to be a sacrament, they seem pretty serious about it. Under sacramental thinking, an annulment or declaration of nullity means a true sacrament never took place. One reason for a declaration is if it is found one partner never intended to fulfil the vows. A pedophile probably fits that description
I don’t think an 8 page letter can be summed up in a short editorial/factual article. There is obviously information that is not being shared here. I would hesitate to draw any conclusions from this article.
He links to my post that contains many emails, texts and letters from TVC and SIM. http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2015/05/she-speaks-village-church-protects.html
Fair enough. Here’s a link to the full letter and also a link to Karen’s response.
Curious to see where you believe Matthew’s assessment falls short.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/266531116/The-Village-Church-email-on-5-23-15-to-covenant-members-about-Karen-Hinkley-and-Jordan-Root
http://www.scribd.com/doc/266092498/Statement-by-Karen-Hinkley-formerly-Karen-Root
Bull-poop. He summed it up quite well. It’s public. Read it yourself and you’ll see.
There is another “blogger” with almost an identical article stating the same info as this one…werid how two totally different “bloggers” can write so similarly. I was googling how to join the village church and found this…internet is a scary place. I will remember this in my prayers. But still 100% joining. Love it there! Hallelujah Jesus, thank you for TVC.
This is pretty big news right now in Christian circles. It is hardly suspicious or strange for multiple outlets and blogs to cover the same story. Christianity Today and Dallas Morning News are also covering it. Is that “weird”? All the links to the actual timeline and emails from TVC, are they “weird” too? Is Karen’s response here weird as well? http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2015/05/karen-hinkleys-response-to-village.html
I understand The Village stance. It’s hard for a church to stand on its foundation when such a terrible thing has occurred as child or sexual abuse. The bottom line is that we are in community and we really need the help and wisdom of others when it comes to sin. Jesus would not condemn anyone who believes in His absolute power, so this church is wanting and willing to walk with them in this. If a party refuses then they themselves are so deep in there sin and selfishness they can not see that forgiveness is paramount in our relationship with Jesus. So refusing to try and honor her commitment she is walking away from faith and grace.
So I’m confused. How did she sin exactly? By disagreeing with the leadership? Not sin. By annulling a marriage to a pedophile? Not sin. By refusing to told she is not allowed to do either of those things? Not sin.
Also, to call her selfish under these circumstances is at best ignorant and at worst an intentionally vile vilification of an innocent party.
Not at all my intent. I concede that reconciliation would be nothing short of a micacle. Guess what God Is In The Business Of those. By not giving someone she committed her life to the chance to gi it His way she is in her sinful f less letting the actions define her response not God.
It is a purely human construct to believe that God would require a reconciliation in this marriage. Annulments are granted when the marriage is based on fraud or of a nature that is irreconcilable with being able to establish covenant on a foundation of truth. They are not granted lightly. She was granted one almost immediately. The fact that you don’t like it or that the Village Church doesn’t like it, does not mean she is in sin. Her marriage as she understood it, never existed.
Annulment is a human and legal action… not Gods
Ending the marriage doesn’t prevent Jordan from repenting.
So Rob she is living in sin because she chose to divorce her pedophile husband against the church’s wishes and was appalled at its insistence that she reconcile with the pedophile and resigned her church membership in reaction. What kind of sick and twisted world do you and the TVC leadership live in. It is beyond appalling. This is just more of what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable.
Exactly, Rob. We are called to seek reconciliation first.
Darius, Rob says, “I concede that reconciliation would be nothing short of a miracle.” Since God intercedes miraculously, oh maybe .1% of the time (to be generous), you guys are apparently pleased to indulge magical thinking. And if you would want to believe that for yourself (say if your wife turned out to be a pedophile, and only interested in sex with children no matter what), that would be fine. You almost certainly won’t get it, because God seldom works that way, but go ahead and bet the farm on a miracle. It might happen.
But you don’t get to require that for someone else.
Sometimes people who insist on miracles for others think that they are being extry-faithful spiritual but the truth is exactly opposite. Because no matter how tightly you squeeze your eyes and how long you hold out your hands, God will do what He will do and most of the time He is inclined to make us work through our issues the long slow way.
You say, “we are called to reconciliation first.” No, we are called to seek God above all, and to follow what we believe He is telling us in our lives. I would never ever be so crass and arrogant to think that I could tell Karen what to do. I am not Karen, and the Holy Spirit that is in her doesn’t speak to me.
And that, in the end, is what I find appalling about all the manly spiritual leadership at Village Church. Your presumption and ignorance show deep immaturity but you have no idea of it. It is as if you are all thinking only from….well, never mind.
Rob, please read Pastor Wade Burleson’s blogs about this topic. He is in Enid, Ok.
He covers how the Village Church got this wrong in their treatment of Karen. It’s his Bitter Root article.
He also covers membership covenants and why they are biblically wrong. We are to let our yes mean yes and our no mean no. We are not to sign these kinds of oaths. Also we aren’t to overrule the working of the Holy Spirit, which these pastors/elders did to Karen.
Presumptious of them.
You know what else is a human and legal action (not God’s)? Having people sign a church membership contract.
Bingo.
Walking away from an unhealthy or deeply painful church situation is emphatically not the same thing as walking away from faith and grace.
What arrogance, as if TVC is the only church where god’s grace exists, where faith can be expressed. Gross.
I used to be part of a religious/christian cult which had almost identical beliefs. Walking away from abuse meant that you were also castigated and lied about as you left. Elders of this church claimed you were no longer ‘of them’ and that you were leaving the kingdom of God and were bound for hell. We were shunned in the street by people who had no idea what they were doing or why they were simply following orders. This story has so many similarities with the stories of people we know from this cult whose entire families were cut off from them because they were apparently being ‘disciplined’. Decades later nothing has changed, nobody has ‘repented’ and the pain is still being healed, if at all.
Fortunately, our family left intact and has returned to the true gospel. It constantly amazes me how many mega churches employ this kind of partriachal cult-like thinking gaslighting the victims and making the women and wives out to be the real sinners. Ugly, wrong, wicked, not of God, just the flesh, vile and destructive.
As for signing covenants, and some churches in Australia make members sign covenants with the church to ensure tithing continues, it is simply extra-biblical and further proof that the modern church has become a den of thieves. Christians need to understand there is no such thing as a ‘covenant’ or even a ‘contract’ which has any legally binding power. There is no civil law which forces anybody to stay in any church or relationship or to continue supporting an abusive and destructive organisation.
God help us all!
Jazmin – one very important note. She did not divorce her husband. The state of Texas granted her an annulment on grounds of fraud. Jordan, as a secret pedophile, was not able to honestly take the vows of marriage.
She is not a divorced woman…she has never been married.
Amen Rob, amen.
Rob, are you a member of TVC? Because your idea that walking away from the church equals walking away from grace seems lifted from their “covenant.” It is also dead wrong. It is only Catholics who believe that the church can dispense grace (via the sacraments). Karen’s salvation is in Christ alone, and grace does not confer an obligation to do anything. If it did, it wouldn’t be grace.
Frankly, this is why the Gospel is so scandalous. It says that a man with a perverted mind toward under age kids, if repentant, is clothed with the righteousness of Christ and can be in a right standing with his local church that he has made a covenant with (though, of course, that church will have to work how to serve him and let him serve…and involve the cops when and if necessary). Likewise, it says that if a woman breaks the covenant she made with her church, is unforgiving to said person despite the horrendous actions made against her, and does not seek counsel from her local church (and the authority of Elders God has put above her) then discipline is set on her. (btw, she is not under discipline for the annulment, she is under discipline for breaking the covenant with her church). The Gospel is scandalous. Good for Chandler. Sola Scriptura.
Does the Gospel really say that? I’ve never read anything about right standing with a local church covenant in the Gospel.
The gospel literally says fuck all about entering into binding covenants with local church leaders. How pharisaical can you get?
God didn’t place these leaders over her, she chose to get involved with that structure, as a free adult. They are not morally or legally her leaders. She can now out any-fucking-time and if they are grown up respectful humans they will honor that.
This is why sociopaths, narcissists, abusers, molesters, etc. love the church. You can get away with nearly anything and if you get caught, you can “repent” and the congregation will applaud you back into position to mistreat others again.
He didn’t get caught. he voluntarily confessed at great, great cost, wanting help. And his life will never be the same. He’ll never be trusted with kids. He’ll have a hard time getting a job. He’ll have a hard time finding a wife – he may determine to be celibate. This isn’t a televangelist – it’s just a guy. A guy everyone hates hates hates now. He chose this because he wanted to be right with God, to get help, and to stop before this sin takes him farther to a place he never thought he would go, as sin is always trying to do.
Did you read the full story? He confessed only after being questioned repeatedly by his wife who knew something was going on. This is a man who built his life around accessibility to minors who was found out to have a far worse interest.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/05/25/part-1-jordan-root-is-a-confessed-internet-child-sex-abuser-should-the-village-church-trust-him/
If his wife had not caught on and pressed, then he would’ve never “confessed.”
Sola Scriptura…yet you chastise Karen for violating her covenant to the church. Despite that Scriptura admonishing against entering into covenants… Back to your bible, young man! You’ve mistaken authoritarian religious structures, whose leaders bind up burdens for others to carry, for something endorsed by scripture and G-d. How very pharisaical of you.
Are you referring to not swearing oaths, etc? Matthew 5? This was speaking to the common practice of what we think of as “swearing to god” that something is true, and especially doing so in a double-handed way to hide a half-truth. It’s well documented in history. This isn’t about legal contracts. Same goes for the book of James. Do you sign a cell phone plan? Are you in sin? No. Do you say “I swear by heaven I’m losing money on this deal,” fingers crossed behind your back, telling yourself some minor expense was lost money so it’s not exactly a lie … as you swindle someone? Because it’s well documented as a common practice of the day. There was a whole religiously backed SYSTEM of oaths that were used in this manner, were even legally binding and could be manipulated. Jesus busted that up. Historical context is everything in understanding that one.
The early church didn’t need a “contract.” IT was understood that the church was the church universal, for one thing. Contracts didn’t exist like they do now. it’s completely appropriate in our historical context to use a “contract-like” covenant to help people in our contract-oriented society understand the seriousness and personal-ness that the church is approaching scriptural shepherding of their members with. If you WANT that spiritual headship, and you see how scriptural it is, you sign. I signed. I am longing for it. It’s rare. She didn’t have to sign, but she wanted that, until something she wasn’t expecting happened and it got too real, too close to home… but that’s when she needs it most, and the church is doing exactly what the promised by pursuing her. They are not tarnishing her name – they were forced to explain what’s going on to their members who were getting peppered with questions because of her false representations and all the media coverage she created.
“…until something she wasn’t expecting happened and it got too real, too close to home…” Yes, Karen didn’t expect that the church fellowship would be so ignorant about child sex porn that they would arrogantly believe that they could handle therapy for pedophilia. And she didn’t expect that they wouldn’t recognize that it is not possible to have a genuine marriage with someone who is only sexually attracted to children.
The church broke the covenant through breath-taking arrogance and ignorance. She merely made it official.
Annie Banannie is right. Nowhere in the New Testament is covenantal authority/leadership for believers even suggested, let alone endorsed.
The passage you cite does not say swearing to god specifically, but swearing to ANYTHING for ANY reason rather than just saying what you mean when you mean it. Which she did, both when she joined and when she opted to end her membership.
But if that’s not good enough for you how about Mark 10:41-45? Chandler compares himself to a high-powered macho CEO. He and his team refuse to acknowledge the agency of people in his church to determine a safe and healthy environment for themselves, and persists in explicitly unwelcome emails, texts, and other communications. His behavior fits the definition of a wordly leader in that Mark passage above.
You say she misrepresented them and so they have no choice but to send that letter to the whole church. Bullshit. How can she misrepresent them when she has provided copies of all their communications.
You don’t just pick and choose which verses you like, you selectively read everything else as well.
Your take on what is appropriate behavior from Christian leaders creates environments ripe for abuse. Shame on you. Shame.
Amen Jolo. My wife and I have had major issues and this church has brought us leaps and bounds to God and each other. We long for it too!
No, she’s not under discipline for leaving the church, she wasn’t allowed to leave because she was already under discipline for setting the annulment.
What does the bible say about liars?
Don’t know…but what you wrote is untrue so you better figure that out quickly.
Lol – this is a satirical comment, right?
Nope. Dead serious.
Amen, TY. I’m impressed by how Chandler handled this.
Really? Could you expand on the way you think Matt Chandler has handled this and what, exactly, impresses you?
BTW – despite his tweet that he “loves” Karen, he never once spoke to her or contacted her during her ordeal.
Wow. I’m amazed at what I’m reading here. Ms. Hinkley resigned as of 2/11/2015. But on 5/23/2015, The Village Church sent out a long e-mail about this woman who had resigned three months previously. It was full of all sorts of things that could be seen as attempts to blacken ms. Hinkley’s reputation. I’m shocked, really shocked, that the church didn’t run this by a lawyer first. Perhaps the lawyer might have told them that sending out such a letter could consist of defamation, an invasion of privacy and intentional infliction of emotional distress. I’d read what Baptist pastor Wade Burleson has to say here: http://www.wadeburleson.org/2015/05/it-takes-village-covenant-to-raise.html
Matt Chandler’s Village Church handled this abominably.
Agree 100%.
Ty, you are wrong because you do not understand the Scriptures. Karen was betrayed by the grossest form of infidelity, perversion involving the promotion and propagation of child rape and trafficking. She is not unforgiving by leaving the marriage Jordan broke. And in fact, he signed the annulment paperwork also. Yet she is the only one in church discipline ostensibly for annulling the marriage. I won’t bother pointing you to the early church to prove these sorts of membership covenants are legalism; you should search the Scriptures for yourself. In any case, your idea of grace is cheap. Confession is not proof of repentance, fruits of repentance take time, and separating oneself from evil in order to ensure you protect the innocent is not unforgiveness. You are wrong. And on top of that you are proud. This is worse than Corinthians.
And just to clarify: you say she is not in discipline for the annulment. That’s not technically what has been communicated by TVC. In any case, there are no Biblical grounds for disciplining people for matters of conscience. Karen is not in any sin for refusing to accept abusive authority. When you promote her discipline you are promoting the spirit of Diotrophes not the Spirit of God. And that is not Sola Scriptura but a lack of understanding of Scripture and the nature and character of God.
What a bunch of self-righteous creepoids. How dare a woman stand up for herself, amirite? SOLA PATRIARCHY.
We aren’t supposed to stand up for ourselves as Christians. We are supposed to stand up for the Gospel of Christ. Her husband was standing up for himself when he was looking at child pornography, and he was standing up for the Gospel when he confessed his sin to the church voluntarily and sought help, at immense cost, shame, and humiliation to himself. The church very well may have agreed with her that it is reasonable to get a divorce, but not in a rash, angry, bitter moment of condemnation on her husband, which if you read her words, seems to be “where she’s at.”
So now, the church is in the position to do exactly what she asked them to do, back when the idea sounded good to her before it got too real. I understand she’s hurting – I’ve been betrayed in a similar way, and I was so angry and judgmental and filled with disgust, and it was decidedly un-christian and my church called me on it, and I’m so glad they did. Because i don’t want to stand up for myself, i wand to stand up for the Gospel!
No, the husband was standing up for the raping of children by paying for pictures of it. God made us in His image–when we do not respect His image-bearers, we do not respect Him.
Village Church should be spending its energy on the hell that is child porn and how we can work against it, even among its own members. Instead they pick on the ex-wife of their in-house pedophile for cancelling their precious membership contract. It would be the joke-of-the-day if it weren’t so appallingly opposite Jesus who said we were supposed to be as children.
Really, what are they teaching people these days?
Jolo- You should be careful not to assume you understand the motives and heart of this woman. When you say things like “it got too real for her” you are assuming you understand why she left, and you are doing so by willfully choosing to disregard what she says are her reasons for leaving.
You may have been betrayed and had a sinful heart response to that, but it is not your place to overlay your experience onto someone else. That is arrogant. In reality it is possible to end a covenant without sinning, Karen was honest and clear with her reasons and intentions for doing so. Whether she has additional, hidden, sinful motivations, as you claim, is between her and god, and none of your business.
Her explanation regarding why she left the church is a reasonable one- that of being uncomfortable with being in the space as her former husband. It is very dangerous to insist that you know what is better than a stranger what is right for that person. And by dangerous I mean it is the mindset that keeps neo-Calvinist, reformed women in abusive marriages, trapped in unsafe situations.
Jolo – You have a sick, twisted perspective. Seek Jesus, not these ugly and vicious men who try to dominate and make themselves something great. How dare you condemn that woman and uphold that man?
Karen did absolutely the right thing, taking the time to be sure of the nature of Jordan’s infidelity, and TVC may well be sheltering an unrepentant pedophile while further abusing a truthteller. In any case, Jordan has proved to be a compulsive liar and manipulator. He can repent but he can’t yet be trusted. TVC has no idea what they are dealing with and they seem to have been too proud to get actual expert help.
It doesn’t matter how many people they fill their stadiums with. They are siding with a paedophile over a wronged wife, they are utterly disgusting. Their stupid, petty little man-made covenant has nothing to do with a loving God, who was always on the side of the weak and oppressed.
But still, more numbers and tithes coming in, eh? That’s what really matters to Matt.
How dare a church try to dictate to a wife not to divorce a child-abusing husband. Right up there with the horrible creepy little Gothards and the pathetic Doug Wilsons of this world. How can anyone respect such weak, stupid men? Or possibly think they are ‘godly’?
Is a differing opinion welcome here?
The Village is doing for her what she asked them to do. They did not tell her she has to stay married, they pursued her to deeply seek counsel and scripture before making a huge decision. They may have ultimately agreed with her that it’s reasonable she divorce.
She wants to be a missionary and proclaim to the nations that in Jesus Christ is forgiveness of all sins. None too big. Unless you’ve looked at child pornography – then you’ve crossed a line. You’re too gross. Her husband has, at immense personal cost and humiliation, voluntarily confessed and repented. He is at this moment, it seems, the absolute embodiment of someone surrendered to Christ and needing grace – someone she would supposedly welcome with open arms on missionary trip. What will she do on said trip now, with such bitterness and judgment for her ex knotted up in her heart?
She loved the idea before it hit too close to home, didn’t she? She has a real spiritual dilemma on her hands. I know – I’ve been there. The church is also, at great cost and ridicule, standing by the promise they made to her – to pursue her even if she changes her mind. It would be far easier to say “it’s all cool” like so many others would. The will lose people over this. People will not understand. And she’s out trashing them to the media, filled with bitterness. Her ex husband has exposed his own sin to the entire WORLD for the sake of the gospel of Christ – demonstrating and trusting the Gospel, in utter humiliation and shame.
I don’t know if it was reasonable for her to be patient, or for their marriage to be reconciled. It’s devastating and messy. But she has shown that there is a line beyond which she will not forgive, and that she will rush to satisfy her desires to feel better on her own terms rather than just wait, be patient, seek scripture, be separated for a while and heal a little and see where the dust settles.She is DEFINITELY a victim of her husband’s sin, but it is possible for victims to respond to their hurt in sinful ways, like unforgiveness, bitterness, self righteousness, and judgment, which, like it or not, Christ treated as worse than sins like her husband’s sin.
I understand why she feels it’s unreasonable for her to stay married to him. I really, really do. You have no idea my own experience. That’s not the issue. They aren’t “punishing her for getting a divorce.” They are doing what she ASKED them to do before something too close to home happened in her life – this is when she needs them to stay true the MOST, and try to help her be more like Christ and put Him above ALL else, and they are, at great cost and ridicule.
I pray for her. I know she’s suffering. I pray for them, that though this makes no sense to the worldly, those who are called will long for such steadfastness and clarity of purpose, and see the love and grace driving their actions.
It’s very common for churches effectively to tell members they should have no personal boundaries, or have the church decide for them what those should be. That is wrong; a church, simply by virtue of being a church, is not always right. Some things are deal-breakers, and more important than any daft ‘covenant’ the poor woman may have ill-advisedly signed.
Viewing child pornography is considered beyond the pale by many because it is an attack on the most vulnerable, damaging for life to the victim, and because it largely cannot be cured. You can never let that person near a child again. Churches are notoriously attractive to paedophiles, unfortunately, because they are full of mugs too scared to use their God-given common sense. Judgment is the right call here, and Karen has the right to choose not to share her life with such a person, and not to let a body like a church, renowned for their naivete in dealing with such things, to dictate to her how she should act.
I don’t hold with these membership covenants anyway – they are too attractive to abusers and people who get off on controlling other people, rather than people who genuinely care.
Don’t forget that her husband married her to conceal his real predilections. Waiting would only delay the inevitable. Who in their right mind would want a woman to stay wiht a predatory, habitually lying paedophile. I bet he’s all over the place now with fake repentance, just like Jimmy Swaggart (yes, different sin, but same response). You may call for grace, but only God knows where that is appropriate. Would you let Jordan babysit a four year old girl you care about? Alone? How far would your forgiveness go?
Also, I think you may be wrong about this experience barring Karen from effective missionary work. She will know the signs of child abuse and how to call out controllers and abuse apologists so much better now. What kind of person would not want her to exercise such skills? Whatsoever you did unto one of the least of these…
Thanks for responding, Barbara. We are in agreement that child pornography is a serious, serious awful sin.
Lots of people think the church was demanding she stay married. Let’s take that off the table right now. They weren’t. They were trying to get her to slow down, heal, be in community, they advised immediate separation, and seeking counsel and scripture, seeking a gospel-centered chain of responses, working through the pain, forgiving, etc. I am a member of the Village and i think it’s likely they would have given her grace to decide to leave the marriage, and would want to walk with her in that decision, help determine how there can be peace in that body of believers, how to walk with him in that as well, see that he is taken care of on continued repentance, etc.
I have signed that covenant – actually each point of it… it’s broken up into a bunch of small sections, very clear, and if you don’t like it many people decide not to sign it, but just attend there and work through their theological questions or disagreements, or find a different church if they like. I LOVE the covenant. I see it as the church promising ME they will hold me and my family to scripture because I am asking them to – especially if the unforeseen happens and i lose my mind.
This bars her from mission work because it is likely she is extremely damaged, angry, and not on a road to health with a body of Christians, but is flying solo, making judgmental statements about her husband and about the church to the media, etc. When I was betrayed in my marriage I was so angry, and I got angry at the church for calling me out on my unforgiveness, and my self righteousness. I was fighting for myself and not fighting for the Gospel of Christ. How would I have been a missionary? This is really, really fresh in her life. She needs lots of healing, to slow down, to deal with this, but she doesn’t want to hear it. She wants to escape it all. Believe me, the church’s goal is to love her well.
Finally, do you see any signs that the church is being unwise about his presence? have you read all the stuff he has to do any time he enters the building, their contact with the authorities? Are these ideas in reaction to the way some other group failed to handle it.. like the catholic priest thing several years ago? That’s not what’s happening here. Forgiveness doesn’t mean trust. And they don’t expect anyone else to trust him, either – including her.
Village Church is NOT the only Christian group in all the land. There are any number of groups with whom Karen can worship/commune, all within the body of Christ. She is correct to recognize that if your church is going to work with her ex, it is better for her to go elsewhere. That your leaders don’t understand this is yet another bit of foolishness.
I recommend that you thoughtfully read the complete post at Watch Keep, including emails/texts/etc. Hearing from all sides is important if interested in fullest accuracy. She has a group of lovely Christians who are supporting her right now, and she will choose another formal arrangement when she feels sturdy enough to begin looking again.
Karen showed great maturity in her actions. She married a fraud and her marriage was a sham. Having it annulled was the right move. The elders even wanted her to keep her finances with his. She was much smarter than that. “Their” money had already been used to view child porn. She broke with pure evil. She is a hero.
This makes so many assumptions about Karen solely based on her disagreement with a single church leadership that it boggles the mind. You are more willing to give a pedophile the benefit of doubt than you are the wife he lied to. I have no words for how how messed up that is.
This is precisely what a cult is….blind loyalty and obedience.
I don’t care that she signed a covenant, she has a right to say ‘screw this’ and walk away.
The fact that the church has so much power over people is quite disturbing.
Okay, thank you for responding. I note your personal story and am sorry that you suffered such a painful experience, but glad that your involvement with the church brought you healing. You chose to accept this route and it has brought you peace. What I say is that a church has no more right than I, a stranger on the internet, to bind you in a covenant.
I get it that you love the covenant. In an ideal world it should be a beautiful thing, something that looks after you and, when it calls you to account, does so lovingly. But how much power you decide to allow it in your life is your freely-made God-given decision, and you have the right to leave it at any time if you are convicted of ungodliness in the church. I personally believe that covenants of this kind are unhealthy, and are often used to coerce. I’m not saying that’s what happened with you, but with Karen, I don’t think the church has a right to enforce the ‘covenant’.
Also, knowingly choosing to accept a paedophile into a church, even with heavy bindings and caveats, is dangerous, and by that I don’t mean a code word for brave. This man has a history of extreme deviousness. He may be genuinely deeply convicted and repentant, or he may be laughing at you all like a demon behind his nice face, and wondering how he can get access to a child again, maybe not now, but in 5 years; he can wait. People lie. All the time. And I think with churches that is the problem. They are so keen to believe that a sinner has repented that they wilfully look away from the possibility that the person may just be carrying on deceiving.
As for Karen being damaged and angry, that to me seems a healthy and right, though painful, response. Jesus was damaged and angry too. There is not a thing wrong with being damaged and angry about the right thing. And she may not be ‘in good standing’ with the Village, but it’s not the only church in the world. The Village would do well to gracefully acknowledge her decision to leave and find fellowship elsewhere, which I am sure she will.
Jolo – “The Village is doing for her what she asked them to do. They did not tell her she has to stay married, they pursued her to deeply seek counsel and scripture before making a huge decision.”
She sought counsel. She listened to what the elders at Village Church advised. She listened to other trusted believers. She sought counsel personally from the Lord.
Since the elders of TVC were also “caring” for Jordan (conflict of interest?) , she felt it was best for her spiritual well-being to receive “care” within a different Christian community.
Why was she bound to follow their time frame? Slow down…why?
Yes! This! This all day. Our pastors and church congregations are not our conduits to God. They absolutely should advise us, but they are overstepping to say “you could not possibly be following God’s plan for you, because it is not OUR plan for you” or “you cannot know what God wants for you unless we tell you.”
Amen Barbara
You do understand the difference between a divorce and annulment, no? She is saying she was never married in the first place. How do you reconcile something that never happened?
The short form of their email to members: “We know better than you how to run your life. If you act alone, then you might do something that makes us look bad. Plus, we’re the only ones who know what God’s will actually is because as mentioned earlier, we are God’s chosen leaders.”
Seriously folks, *NEVER* sign a church covenant. They’re always used to abuse the members and help the leaders. It’s never the other way around. They’re legal contracts to give the church all of the rights and leave you with none. Never join a church that requires you to sign one and if you’ve already signed one, then send them a letter to terminate that relationship. The website “The Wartburg Watch” has a great series of articles on exactly what to say when you sever that relationship.
The healthiest church I ever attended intentionally did not have membership.
This is why it’s very easy for me to not go to church….you get these power-hungry fear mongers like Chandler, Noble, and a bunch of others and they just don’t freaking get it. Who the hell, in their right mind, would sit under this asshole’s authority?!?!?!/
I don’t mean to be combative, but I have to be honest. It seems like one reason you don’t go to church because you view people very judgmentally and don’t have much grace on them.
I know some churches abuse the covenants they create. What is this church getting for theirs? What did Watermark get for theirs several years back? Nothing but grief and ridicule from the world, and from the media.
I gladly signed the covenant once I understood its purpose and its promise. I am prone to wander like a sheep, and i give the men in my local church – whom i know and trust – the responsibility and the burden to sit down with me and have a really uncomfortable conversation with me which may cost them dearly and lead to insults and conflict in their lives. It’s HARD to be that for someone.
Jojo, I don’t think you are a sheep. You are a grown human being and a free agent under God.
Yes, we all need people in our lives who are willing to be straight with us, and we all need people who are supportive, friends, comrades. But it is not required that we sign over our personal authority to obtain such relationships.
It works better when commitment develops over time, when we can slowly built trust for a person or a group, discovering that they have wisdom and personal knowledge of us, so when times get rough, we can truly rely on them. These things are earned, not simply gained by signing our authority over to God-knows-who via a form written by others.
I hope there are some people at Village Church who do deserve trust and that they will be there for you if things fall apart. But there are others who obviously don’t deserve this trust. Just be careful, ok?
Patrice, I feel like I understand what you’re trying to say about Jojo (and myself, and all of us) not being sheep, but that’s exactly the kind of language the Bible uses to describe us.
I don’t know about you, but I have a bit of experience with sheep. (Points to dozens and dozens of handspun skeins of yarn behind me in room.) Sheep are stupid. Sheep tend to follow the leader. And you know what else happens to sheep? Sheep are sheared. And sheep are sacrificed.
I’m out of the church, I’d much rather be a goat!
It is a simile often used in ancient Jewish culture because sheep were a fundamental part of their economic life, and therefore a simple and ready comparison.
When sheep is used these days, it is usually condescension, as if the pewpeons are a bunch of passive ding-dongs in desperate need of constant direction for every little thing from their pastors.
When we recognize that our Shepherd is Jesus, then yes, the simile still functions beautifully: we are all sheep and by Jesus’ Spirit we are led to green pastures. But the simile falls apart as soon as pasters/leaders are seen as “shepherds of the “flock”. Instantly our community turns into an authoritarian structure.
“Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you, must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave…” (Matt 20:25-27)
It would never ever occur to a slave to put Karen under “discipline” for not letting him make her decisions about if/when/how she annulled her sham of a marriage.
Jojo is only a sheep to the Great Shepherd. In the church body, he is a peer among peers.
Sheep of whom? Of Christ directly or those self-anointed priestly mediators, even if they use those words to describe themselves?
It is obvious, Satan wins again. Christians fighting amongst themselves. Throw in a few haters, perfect! God gives us common sense. He’s sick, she left, new church shopping is in order. God will heal her. Paper doesn’t bind, God does.
it just interesting that most who stick up for the Village Church and co. are men.
It’s probably because we men understand things about marriage, women, women’s bodily functions better than women themselves.
When my wife cheated on me multiple times, and i was bitter, and angry, and judgmental, and super wounded, and disgusted, I got called out on it by The Village. She had sinned, but was walking in repentance, and I was now the one who was walking in self righteousness. They had grace on my pain, lots of empathy, but they stuck to the covenant I wanted them to stick to when I signed it, just like this woman wanted them to do when she signed it. You know what? I thought they were wrong for a while. Didn’t they see what she did to me? Yes they did, but they wanted me to see what Christ did for me, because I needed it just like she does, because I too am a sinner .. a wretch. An unforgiving, self righteous wretch, who is filled with joy to remember that about myself and be brought to repentance.
Now they also gave me room to divorce, after some healing and prayer and counsel. They didn’t demand i stay married. And they weren’t doing that with this woman, either. They were just doing what she WANTED them to do, before it got too real.
Okay, we get it. You’re a born-again sinner whose ignorant human ways almost led you astray, but thanks to the “heroes” from the Village you have been saved. For fuck’s sake, spare us the pain of having to listen to your illogical fallacy.
No matter how much you yearn to be able to say you’re just as persecuted as this woman, it doesn’t make your insight any worthier. Fuck you, kindly.
I really have a problem with the words you are using. If you want to use such words, that is your choice. But your choice of “Jesus says” as your user name is highly contradictory to the abusive language you chose to employ in your answer.
Yeah. It was intentional.
Jolo, how could you possibly compare your wife’s adultery to pedophilia? These sins are not even on even on the same stratosphere! Are you actually suggesting Karen should have considered staying married to this man. If any church suggested that a person should stay married to a pedophile, I would tell that person to run for the hills! Run for your life!
How could you possibly not extend grace? You may not be sexual attracted to children, but whatever sins you commit that you obviously don’t think are as big of a deal are equally damning. We all deserve hell and point the finger at those who we deem worse than us to make us feel better about the justifications we make for self-righteous indignation. Some sins do rightfully require more intensive legal and moral action (this being one of the worst), but it’s not like he’s less of a human made in the image of God and deserving of grace. Is Matthew 6:14-15 not clear enough?
Everyone would do well to Read Romans 1 and see that YAHWEH HIMSELF is the only reason we are not all pedophiles and murderers and rapists.
He wasn’t just “sexually attracted to children”. He facilitated felony child rape for over 10 years, a period of time when he had access to numerous vulnerable children.
Yes, our “sin” collective separates us from God without regard to degree and required Christ’s death…but there is a reason people go to jail for murder and not for coveting their neighbor’s car. And why the OT testament Jews had capital penalties for some sins and not for all.
Your “we’re all sinners” only enabled abusers.
I’m confused. I was pretty sure all sins were equally horrendous to God. Sure, you should deal with a thief differently than you deal with an adulterer differently than you deal with a pedophile, but they are all equally damning and equally forgivable, according to the Gospel. It doesn’t mean you trust that person to hurt anyone again, no matter what they did or what they say now, of course.
All sins are equally damning, but all sins are not equally damaging to the body. The sin of pedophilia is incredibly damaging and carries with it severe consequences on the rest of one’s life. I’m not aware of Karen Hinkley ever stating that she did not forgive Jordan Root and her not considering reconciling with him is perfectly acceptable in this situation.
As someone else mentioned, you’re missing the point. She did not get a divorce, she got an annulment. Had she followed TVC’s advice, she would not have been able to get an annulment and she would have been legally yoked to him, even after divorce, by the fact that she would have to maintain spousal privilege in a court of law. They didn’t want her to sever ties with him monetarily. They also didn’t inform the congregation of what his sin actually was until months (if I recall correctly) after he confessed (with more than one incomplete confession initially, so there was really no reason to extend him any trust until he proved himself). In this sort of situation, while there should be forgiveness, and there could possibly be reconciliation, the Church’s responsibility is to the victim first. To surrounding her with love and support and doing their best to seek out any children who may have been directly harmed as a result of his actions. Their version of “love and support” was control. She has the Holy Spirit, and He will speak to her even as she weighs the counsel of those she trusts. Her only “sin” was not taking their counsel. They are not in a position to require her to do what they say, particularly when her actions are completely Biblical. From all that I have read about this case, she wasn’t bitter or walking in self-righteousness. She chose to distance herself from a very deceptive and manipulative man and was vilified for it. Jordan may have appeared to be “waking in repentance” but how is anyone to really know? With a sin so grevous, the burden of proof is incredibly high.
Why are they even worried about correcting the wife? Was the husband arrested for possession??
By analogy, she broke it off and told her ex, “we need to stop seeing each other.” The ex then turned into a stalker and trashed her to everyone in town.
Also,the annulment was a state annulment, not a church annulment.
Between this and the Duggar thing, I am just about as sick of the church as I could be. I hope Karen finds the kind of support she needs in her time of hurting.
Looks like they are adopting the tactics of Scientology.
Not knowing the entirety of the issue….if the ties that bind us to each other, in a Church, are ONLY arbitrary and capricious, where NO ONE is really under ANY, legitimate AUTHORITY, then, YES….the whole thing…Church…is BOGUS. Understood…NO ONE is perfect, either in the Congregation or Leadership, but if either MUST be perfect for the other to abide, then, again, this is BOGUS. Leaders are “from God”, as in all Authority….if you don’t or won’t abide…don’t be UNDER authority! To complain, now, is not the answer. Each of us can STILL make the SAME decisions…but why NOT submit to the Authority you AGREED to, and see if this “So-called God” IS real, and can bring about Healing, Comfort, Reconciliation…..?! Unless….it’s not what you want, anyway. Then, as if a Parent, the Leaders are TRYING to ENFORCE their Authority…they should try and be stern. Then, wait. If the subject of Discipline WILL NOT submit, release them.
There is no one in authority over us but God. Jesus asked that we not be as those who wield authority over others but be servants to each other. All of us, to each other. Gifts, “fruits”, and talents that we have been given are to be offered, not foisted on others.
Village Church, among many many others, has lost its moorings and you are fine with it.
TVC has a history of being deceitful.
http://www.praythendo.com/why-i-left-the-village-church/
I doubt that you read that
It doesn’t appear to me that TVC has placed Karen under discipline for not staying married, but for removing herself from any possible counsel from the pastoral authority she voluntarily accepted before her life turned messy. She does not appear to have engaged with any of the spiritual authorities that she once thought so beneficial. She, in haste, simply decided to move her life in a different direction and leave the church family with whom she had covenanted. Sin is messy, and this is a great example, but Karen (at least at some point) noticed the importance of placing herself under the shepherding care of a local church pastor(s).
There are so many churches in the DFW area than one would need at least ten proverbial sticks to shake in order to count them. Karen intended to join a congregation that took membership seriously. Now, when she is facing a tremendously difficult time in life, she is trying to flee from any engagement with that same leadership she once pursued.
Church discipline, biblically appropriated, is alway hard and never fun for all involved. Even when you are in the right, you feel the general weight of guilt and sin. This is because we are all sinful, and infinitely so before a holy God. There is little doubt that the conversation Karen might have with her pastors at TVC will be uncomfortable, but this conversation would be healthy and beneficial for all. TVC seems to be simply calling Karen to come under the shepherding care that she once thought was so valuable.
Humble repentance and godly submission to Christ is the goal of the Christian life. Christians were never meant to live as autonomous entities floating to and fro, attaching temporary strings to this group and that one. Christian sinners were always meant to do life together with other Christian sinners in Christ-ward pursuit, and this is not possible when Christians simply depart from contact when life gets nasty.
My heart is broken for Karen. I cannot imagine her pain. However, genuine pastoral love is exactly what is warranted here.
Godly counsel and loving engagement from godly people who love and care for you so much that they are willing to expose themselves to public ridicule for your sake… Isn’t this what everyone needs?
The defenders come in with so many, many words with the message that the system is what matters and not the people.
Honestly, the only people buying what you’re selling in the comments here (and the bizarro teachings on headship that are the root) are already in the “system.” To everyone else, the words of defense look ridiculous.
Actually, Karen officially resigned her membership. They would not leave her alone. She has no right to officially resign? Seriously? .She grew up past signing your soul away to a few young men who love power…and fast
So Karen was free to leave the church at any time, but because she left the church at this time she’s under discipline and can’t leave. Sounds abusive as hell.
Karen stated quite plainly that she could not remain within the same church body as Jordan. That is not an unreasonable thing and Chandler et al. should have respected that. In fact, they could have demonstrated the love of Christ by helping her to find another local church where she could seek healing.
I am astounded at some of the replies defending TVC. It’s almost satirical. I’ve been “translating” TVC’s communication with Karen. http://translationsbyellie.com/index.php/2015/05/25/translation-of-tvc-pastor-matt-youngers-letter-to-karen-root-hinkley/ TVC got it wrong here and the sooner they and the rest of Christendom say so, the better.
Was she in good standing on the date of her resignation from the church on February 11th? Was she under any formal discipline on that date?
What does that have to do with anything? The question shouldn’t be “Was she abiding by the covenant?” but “Is the covenant biblical and just?” And if not, this needs to be remedied ASAP.
I was just reading this AMAZING document about a similar situation. this document starts out like this “When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”
When the governing body isn’t doing it’s job, it’s quite all right to severe ties with that governing body. Hopefully this instance will bring much needed change at TVC instead of a Revolutionary Way…
Not that it matters, but yes she was a member in good standing when she resigned her membership.
Friends, are ANY of us really that much better than Jordan? We might not have sinned in exactly the same way, but we’ve all done and thought horrible things that don’t deserve forgiveness. It’s a scandal that God has ever accepted or forgiven us. It’s a scandal that Christ bore our sins in His own body on the cross. That applies to me, it applies to Jordan, Karen, and Matt.
No. I have not sinned in a horrible way. I have not harmed a child, or spent my family’s money on things that actively harm children.
The main reason I hate reformed theology because of its sin leveling. The fact that everyone makes mistakes is not actually saying that all mistakes are equally grievous. Not even in the sight of God. Jesus talked about millstones and the sea in a specific context, not in general.
To say that my sins are not on a level with Jordan’s is not to say that I think I better than he is, but simply to acknowledge that some sins are criminally harmful to others and others aren’t.
Karen’s choosing to leave TVC, even if in a fit of hasty and emotional pique, is not on a level, WILL NEVER BE ON A LEVEL, with Jordan’s sin of paying to watch people sexually abuse children.
Evangelicals- Your hearts and consciences have been seared by legalism and pretty sounding doctrine. Our worldly governments have more wisdom than Christians now. You are not salt and light anymore. You are bland, unable to distinguish between evil and mere anger. Your light has been put out, you blunder in the darkness and guide no one. No children can run to you for safety, no healthy adult can look to you for moral guidance anymore. Your ideas and structures perpetuate abuse. You are a force for harm in this world.
Reformed theology does not view that a Christian can actually change and grow in sanctification with his or her own choices; everything is tied to a Platonistic viewpoint. This means everything spiritual is OUTSIDE of you not INSIDE. You basically still depraved as you were before you found Christ. That is why the eldership is considered vital in Reformed Theology- they are considered God’s anointed and have full authority over you. Of course this teaching is nowhere found in Scripture. Elders were older men at the time who imparted wisdom and made sure false teachers (such as gnostics) were not coming in to deceive.
The only discipline that was really enacted on an individual was with sexual sin and false prophets/teachers. When Ananias and Saphirra lied about how much money they gave, guess who disciplined? The Holy Spirit. The elders did not do a thing. There is not any other instance where one is put under elder authority other then sexual sin and false teachers and usually they were let go for Satan to deal with.
The Bible is pretty simple but many denominations, such as, Reformed Theology love to twist Scripture and add more to what is plainly given to us. The Holy Spirit is the one who imparts to each and every believer truth. Listen to Him!
Sexual deviancy is extremely difficult to recover from and most pedophiles will go on to be repeat offenders. They are smooth talkers and know how to lie well. So it is easy for them to “repent” and “say they are sorry”; they will just do it again when they get the chance. What TVC has done is irresponsible and foolhardy.
Those who have come here to defend TVC really do need to pray and ask the Holy Spirit to illuminate and give you wisdom. This church is not acting in the way of Christ.
Cursing your father and mother is punishable by death – Leviticus 20:9
Blasphemy – 24:14
You’re really going to say that you don’t deserve death for your sin? You may be saved by the blood of Christ, but you will never understand how rich I is until you understand how much it covers you.
It’s not a scandal that God became Jesus. We are not some scum underfoot that God should have scraped up and burned in the incinerator.
God spent some effort creating humans and when finished, He knew He’d done a very good job. He was serious, too, putting His own image into us. As any good artist would do with a wonderful but flawed piece of art, God worked it out so that the artwork could be saved. That is wonderful, marvelous, most dear!
When we think we must undersell our own value in order to give Jesus’ work “proper shine”, we insult God’s work from all ends.
If you don’t have any sin that’s actually that big of a deal then what in the hell do you need Jesus for? You think Yahweh sent his beloved, perfect, only Son to be ridiculed, beaten, stripped almost naked, flogged, limbs ripped out of place, pierced with iron spikes and crucified for your white lies and overeating?
What I wrote went right over your head. Whooossshhhh!
And FWIW, sin-leveling is one of the more absurd and damaging ideas to come out of the Neo-Cal crowd.
“…white lies and overrating.” Oh brother, I knew it was only a matter of time until one of these assholes called one of these non-submissive women a fattie.
Way to go in being utterly, disgustingly, predictable.
The level of maturity is remarkable, isn’t it? Junior-high, maybe early high school. One wonders what they’ve been doing in the years since.
And he undermines his own logic—if all sin is the same, then yes, those who merely engage in white lies and overeating (like say hobbits) are also in need of God receiving all that gory&torture.
Oy
Laura what you just said is a cop out. We all know as believers we all need Christ because we were sinners, but there are sins that bear greater consequences then others. Sorry…… This is why murder and pedophilia deserve jail, whereas, telling a lie will not land you in the cell. Certain sins hurt with a greater intensity and can cause terrible harm; and this is why Paul and the other disciples were very adamant in their admonishment of sexual sin. It causes great destruction.
I have heard so much about this Jordan Root but what about the victims. How are they faring through all this? What about the children and their health? Karen did the right thing. One needs to hear and read the stories of victims of child sex abuse; there are long lasting effects that plague these precious individuals for life. I know what Jesus would do….. He would say “Little children come unto me…….” and “anyone who would hurt one of these little ones should have a millstone tied around his neck and thrown into the sea…”
These are pretty harsh words coming from the Savior……..
So is Jordan deserving of forgiveness or not? Can Jesus forgive him? Is the blood of Christ not enough?
Jesus can, and almost certainly does, forgive Jordan. Hell, *Karen* may even forgive Jordan. This has literally nothing to do with Karen setting boundaries regarding what is safe and healthy in her own life.
Forgiveness does not mean, has never meant, access to a person you have harmed.
Oh, I’m all about people experiencing just consequences for their actions. What this guy was involved with is a crime and I think it would be right for him to submit to legal action. What I’m so saddened by is how many people seem to think they’re so much better than Jordan because they haven’t sinned in this way. All sin is definitely not equal in its severity and consequence, but ALL of it deserves God’s wrath and for the sinner to be separated from Him forever. It’s all equal in that it ALL, from the smallest to the most serious, separates us from God. As followers of Jesus, I hope this situation causes us to take ALL our sin seriously because Jesus had to die in order to pay for it.
I’m not sure anyone is saying they are “better” than Jordan. It’s more of “why is TVC trusting is ***repentance** when pedophiles are notorious manipulators and rarely (if ever) are cured”?
Would you prefer the church said “This guy is probably too bad of a sinner to ever receive healing and wholeness, so let’s just trash him”? I think what TVC is trying to do is communicate they believe that there is no one beyond the possibility of wholeness where there was once brokenness. They’re a church that believes and is seeking to apply the Gospel to a very serious, real-life situation. Isn’t that so hopeful?
I am curious….are you this lenient towards the gay community?
Yeah, I thought not.
Laura, yes I am a sinner and I am also a much, much, much better person than Jordan. No I have not committed any sins as agregious as Jordan’s. If I had, I should be in prison an as a repentant Christian be at peace and in agreement with my just imprisonment.
I have no qualm whatsoever saying that I am far superior for a child molester.
I Think a point many commentators are missing is this: Karen is refusing to cooperate with her church through this process but is adamant in her desire to go back on the mission field as a missionary. This is where the church discipline of Karen makes the most sense as she is a leader who is desiring to continue in a leadership role but is not interesting in following with the protocols and pastoral care she voluntarily agreed to pursue. I hate this for her. What happened is a terrible and horrible thing. There are no appropriate words to describe it. However, before she can resume her ministry and effectively minister to others, she herself needs to be ministered to. I think this is that heart behind what TVC is doing. I know it’s easy to get caught up in the media hoopla and the social media assault on everyone involved, but in reading the church’s formal letter it made a lot of sense. I hope those so quick to point fingers will at least read the document from the church in its entirety. Regardless of the outcome, my prayer is for both partners to find healing and restoration from the impact of this husband’s sin.
She voluntarily entered into that relationship with the church, and voluntarily backed out of it when she felt it was no longer healthy for her to continue. This is a thing that responsible and healthy adults do.
No one is under a moral obligation to submit to an unhealthy or emotionally harmful situation.
Also, it’s the height of arrogance to assume people only disagree with the document because they didn’t read it.
“It’s the height of arrogance” – let’s all calm down just a bit. There’s enough name calling and blame issuing going on throughout the comments of this post. None of us are qualified to know the heart or mind of any of the commentators. I don’t know you and you don’t know me. I was simply encouraging people to read before they react. When I first read about this controversy I was more than alarmed, but after reading both sides and digesting it a bit it made a lot more sense. We are all (myself very much included) too prone to judge and not nearly prone enough to respect differing opinions. I simply wanted to make my view point known. As someone in church leadership, the responsibilities we have are a bit different than those who are not in church leadership.
Lol You use a string of strong presumptive words, but tell Anders to calm down for using “height of arrogance”. And then you deign to chide us all for name-calling, blame-issuing, and not being qualified to know hearts/minds.
Perhaps you believe that being in church leadership earns you the right not to take what you dish. You’d be wrong about that.
And because I’m annoyed, I’ll add that, yes, the responsibilities of church leadership are different from those not in the position. So also different are the responsibilities of the plumber, engineer, psychologist, musician, and dump truck operator.
I’m dead weary of exceptionalist rhetoric from Evangelical leaders. You are called to be servants to the rest of us. Maybe we need to change your label for the better spiritual life of all—-oh, ummm say First Church Janitor-in-residence, Serving Waiter of Village Church, House Repairman for Second Baptist of Twiddletown.
Yours truly, Pastor’s kid
wow! I get that people are hurting and feel the need to speak out, but I don’t understand the vitriol. I lumped myself in with those who rushed to judgment. I was merely asking for a momentary cease-fire.
I don’t see my calling as a right to rule but as a duty to serve the least of these. When I said that ministers are called to different standards I meant that we will be judged more strictly by the Lord. That causes me to shutter as I am all too aware of my many short comings me proclivity to sin.
Among my ministry peers I truly am among the least. I am a house church pastor for goodness sake. I am the polar opposite of the mega-church pastor. I’m a mini-pastor and actually pretty stoked about it. Not a pastor for the perks of the profession. I just serve whomever God puts in my way.
You’re a pastor’s kid too? Small world. We’ve seen and experienced things that most church going people would never believe! Lol. Hope it didn’t scar you like it has so many of my friends.
Sorry to rant. Just want you to know that I’m not against you. I appreciate your point of view.
God bless!
Ach, Twiffictom, I think you perhaps have a bit of preacher-speak, but if that’s all it is, I’m honestly ok with it. I’ve heard the lingo so much from people who think God wants them to run others’ lives, and it is loud among the pastors involved in this particular situation. If that is not you, I do apologize.
FWIW, I’ve also met two absolutely lovely pastors and they are among the best of humans.
You might not be aware of the extent to which the authoritarian and hierarchical view towards the Body has gotten traction across much of the US church. The Acts 29 bunch are very harsh that way. It is wrong!
Yeah, count me among the damaged PKs. Thanks for that. I’m ok now.
TVC threatened to remove support from SIM missionaries at TVC if SIM let her return to the field with another sending church. I think that’s called blackmail.
Let’s imagine a different scenario. Let’s imagine a family at TVC in which the father was discovered to have molested his own child. Then let’s imagine all parties involved respond exactly the same way.
Husband repents and apologizes, agrees to do whatever the church says.
Wife files for divorce/annulment
Church announces they will “shepherd” the husband through this difficult season (church speak induced vomiting).
Wife says in that case she feels she and her child will be better served seeking pastoral care elsewhere.
Church tells her she’s being hasty, she should only “separate” and allow opportunity for the Holy Spirit to heal the husband’s relationships with her and their child.
Church insists that she MUST be shepherded by them, attending the same church as her husband.
Do all you TVC ass-kissers think that the church is right in this made-up scenario?
At what point is a person allowed to decide what is safe and healthy for themself? At what point do Matt Chandler et al recognize their limitations and inability to handle a complicated scenario.
The hubris of this church astonishes me.
Your scenario is exactly what SGM leaders did to some families. It is/was horrid.
Oh Bridget. Awful. Horrible.
These “church covenant” organizations are like the Shepherding Movement on steroids as far as I am concerned.
This article is un-Christian.
Nuh-uh. *your* comment is unchristian.
Why is it that virtually every comment that takes the side of The Village Church seems to be written by a man? Seriously, I’ve looked for the comments by women supporters of TVC and haven’t found any.
Speaking as a straight white male who used to be steeped in evangelical culture, I think I can help with this puzzle.
Start with the assumption that “men are rational” and “women are emotional,” and that reason is better when untainted by emotion (because men are better!).
Next, assume anyone who has an emotional investment in something is less objective than someone who doesn’t.
Now, mix in straight-white-male privilege, which protects dudebros from the emotional impact of much of life. Think about things like workplace discrimination, sexual assault, marriage equality… dudebros have the luxury of sitting back and thinking about these things in the abstract, without the fear and anger that comes from actually experiencing these situations.
Finally, add the awful doctrine that all sins are equal and you have a recipe for the epic churchsplaining that has been going on here.
Clearly, Ms. Hinkley is just being emotional, while the church is just trying to be reasonable about her decision to annul her marriage to a pedophile. After all, we’re all sinners, amirite?
This comment wins the internet.
Oh sweet Jesus in heaven- this comment proves the existence of God.
Dudebro Stanmax,
+1,000,000,000,000!
{DudetteSis}
I’m a woman! I wouldn’t say I’m on a side, but I understand and respect TVC’s actions in trying to help ALL parties involved in this to experience forgiveness and reconciliation. Have they done everything perfectly? Probably not. Has Karen done everything perfectly? Most-likely no. All I know is that Christ designed His body to preach repentance and forgiveness of sins to everyone, and that’s what TVC is trying to do.
When you say “reconciliation”, what do you mean? What is your idea of what that was supposed to look like for Karen?
We may or may not know all the details, but it is definitely a difficult situation. Based on what is presented here, I say “Way To Go Village Church”. Matthew 18. It doesn’t suggest running and isolating. Prayers to all parties involved.
We can also say, “Way to go Karen” Matthew 20:25-26 we are not to wield power over each other. And I also agree—prayers to all parties involved.
I am deeply grieved by sin and its consequences. Chiefly, my sin and the consequences it has wreaked on those I know and love, and on countless others. Because I have seen the gracious and merciful hand of my awesome God work miracles in the midst of my messed up life, I also pray that God’s peace, grace, love, justice, and glory might miraculously emerge from the muck and mire of these messy marriages. Yes, marriages plural.
As a Christian with a Christ-centric worldview, I see life (and therefore this situation) through the lens of God’s overarching story and mission: the glorious and gracious Gospel of Jesus Christ. The two greatest metaphors of this gospel are revealed in the two marriage institutions. First, the marriage of Christ (the bridegroom) and the church (The bride). Secondly, the earthly marriage of a husband (who is to image forth Jesus) and his wife (who is to image forth the church). Both of these are covenant relationships that are ordained by God, enabled by God, blessed by God, and governed by God. When either of these metaphors are tainted or damaged, there is much at stake: God and His glory, the mission of spreading Jesus’ gospel throughout the earth, and finally the spiritual health of lives and relationships on this earth.
Amidst the vitriole and vilification that I sense in this debate, I fear that we have started to forget who God is, the purpose He has for His church, and His plan for marriage as an institution. I am also deeply concerned that we, the ones who claim to uphold the name of Jesus, treacherously and tragically abandon our commitment to the authority of God and His word in the midst of life’s emotional upheavels. If we struggle with God’s authority (as revealed in Scripture), this will soon be revealed by a lack of reverence for God himself and the metaphors that most poignantly paint the Gospel story.
While we pray about and think deeply about all that is at stake in the situation, let us take great care and go to great lengths to avoid gossip, slander, and condescending judgment. Next, we are right to urgently empathize with victimized children and a spouse undergoing understandable anguish, all the while reeling from the consequences of one man’s heinous sins. But just as importantly, let us also be quick to empathize with those who have been tasked with leading and defending the church of Jesus Christ…the leaders of the church that Jordan and Karen joined…a church that they voluntarily covenanted with, from whom they sought counsel, who witnessed their profession of faith in Christ and their vows of marriage, and the church who sent them to the mission field with their prayers and support. Sadly, when life gets broken and ugly, we forget that the mission given to this married couple (to image forth a picture of the gospel) is the same mission of the church. In order to accomplish that mission, all must submit themselves to the authority of God’s word and follow Jesus’ teaching. All of it. No matter how hard it is to understand, and no matter how counter cultural or politically unpopular it is.
Yes, Jesus had strong words for those who would victimize children. no one is saying that Jordan should not be held accountable for his actions. But have we forgotten that marriage, their marriage, is an institution built upon the foundation of Jesus and his teaching. All of it. Have we forgotten that Christ’s marriage to the church is something that Jesus was willing to die for to obtain…and defend?
If we want to do any good in this debate, for this couple, for exploited children throughout the world, and for this situation, may I suggest that we first stop, take a long look at our own sin, and thank God that He does not treat us as we deserve. And yet, let us be grateful that He still mercifully disciplines those whom He loves. This, in a nutshell, is a pattern for rebuilding broken marriages and broken churches.
If you don’t believe in church discipline, you don’t have a problem with Matt Chandler’s church, you have a problem with Jesus because Jesus taught church discipline. If you don’t understand why shepherds, elders, and leaders in our churches would fight to restore broken Christian marriages, then you have not taken a long look at the Gospel of Christ’s relentless commitment to pursue and protect His relationship with His bride. The fact that most churches today do not practice biblical church discipline does not give any of us license to condemn those who have remained faithful to their high and holy calling of Gospel ministry. Pastoral courage isn’t forged in trivial conversations over chicken salad sandwiches in the church basement. Pastoral courage is forged in the trenches of inconvenient biblical counsel, shepherding the flock through spiritual/marital/domestic disputes, and tested when wolves attack the fold. In those moments, we don’t need a pal, we need a godly pastor.
I do not know Matt Chandler, I do not know this couple, and I do not attend that church. However, what I do know is that Jesus and His Gospel are portrayed in the metaphors of marriage (both of them), and regardless of your “stance” in this debate, we all do well to look Jesus in the eye and reconcile our views with His Gospel.
Finally, do you believe that God can bring good out of this bad situation? God does. It’s Hus specialty. The definition of the “Gospel” is “good news”. The good news of Jesus Christ (that he offers salvation to those who believe in and trust his sacrifice on the cross as a payment for our sins) is firmly situated in the context of bad news. Lord, have mercy on us…sinners all. Lord, reveal your holy headship over Marriage, and may the Gospel spread throughout our marriages, churches, and the world because of it.
Oh dear God, save us from this kind of twaddle. Let’s just boil it down here. Karen Hinkley was just supposed to follow every demand of her elders, even to the point of staying in a marriage with a pedophile, because of some unbiblical covenant. I may be outside the church now, but I can and do read my Bible. I don’t see the early Christians signing a covenant. This covenant type of thing seems to have surfaced in Calvin’s Geneva and reflects Calvin’s authoritarianism.
Seriously, with all your flowery Jesusy language, you’re covering up the real horror of what’s going on here. TVC gave a pass to Jordan Root, a man who confessed to looking at child pornography. Let me tell you what that means. Children were HARMED in the production of pictures, films, etc., depicting sex acts. And Jordan Root looked at those and got sexual gratification from those. TVC says he’s not under discipline.
But Karen? Karen Hinkley must be punished because she failed to obey this bogus covenant. When she resigned. she was not under discipline. However, TVC seems to think that while a person might check out, they can never leave (cf. “Hotel California). They wanted her to stop her annulment. They were opposed to her separating her finances from those of Jordan.
Let me clue you in on what’s required for an annulment for fraud in Texas: When you find out about the fraud, you must no longer cohabit with your spouse. It would not surprise me to find out that the elders of TVC had it as their plan to try and force a reconciliation so Karen could not get her legal annulment. Then she would have had two choices, both very bad. First, she could have gotten a divorce, which would have no doubt led to more church discipline. (TVC seems to have an inordinate interest in marriage.) Or she could stay with a pedophile, a man who is sexually turned on by children. Both are awful, awful choices. Ms. Hinkley did the right thing by not cohabiting with her ex-husband, by filing for an annulment and by taking her life into her own hands. After all, it is Karen Hinkley who will give an account before God, not Steve Hardin or Matt Chandler or the rest of the elders down at TVC.
And again, I am gobsmacked that virtually every person defending TVC and the covenant is a man. As a woman, it says volumes about how men perceive women. Did you really expect Karen Hinkley to stay with a pedophile? Be honest!
Roger – 1. If a man enters into a marriage fraudulently, then it can never, never be a picture of Christ and the Church since Christ does not defraud. And one can not restore a marriage, for God’s glory or the glory of The Village Church’s covenant membership system, that never existed.
2. You fear we have forgotten who God is? Have you forgotten the God who called out the church leaders because they scrupulously applied the covenant law and neglected justice and mercy? The church leaders who laid heavy burdens on people and claimed an imaginary authority?
3. A Christ-redeemed and Spirit-led Christian is not “in sin” and therefore cannot be disciplined for disagreeing with another Christ-redeemed and Spirit-led Christian…no matter how much the second one insists on it.
It’s ironic that the Reformation was build on the foundational belief that no man or religious institution can bind a Christian’s conscience…and that is just what this neo-Reformed church seeks to do.
PS – Are you, by chance, in church leadership yourself? Just so I can warn women and children of one to avoid since you seem to lean toward counsel that would require submission to abusive situations. Abusers always say “I suggest that we first stop, take a long look at our own sin, and thank God that He does not treat us as we deserve.”
The marriage was over the minute Jordan Root molested children. Along with his wife ending their marriage, is more than likely, God ending his with Jordan’s, also. I not decisively saying he will be finally eternally damned…I am saying a person who continues in sin can only find death in the end: “for the wages of sin is death.”
In her own word she doesn’t know if he acted out, “Jordan, if you have acted out sexually in any way with any child, I urge you to demonstrate the repentance you claim to be walking in by confessing to the appropriate authorities and giving them the names of all children who were affected so their parents can be informed and they can receive the care they need. I also urge you to willingly seek out appropriate treatment for the nature and seriousness of your issues.”
And even the primary source didn’t say he acted out. Not that porn is not a sin but I thought to be a pedophile you had to act out.
It seems she is making accusations of him sexually abusing kids that are found in any of the sources.
In her own words, she says Jordan confessed to her that he repeatedly molested 2 younger children when he was between the ages of 6 and 10.
A pedophile is a person who is sexually attracted to children. Children were raped in order for Jordon to watch videos of those acts for 10 years.
I keep looking for the source of that “molested 2 younger children” thing and I cannot find it. Where is this? I am genuinely asking, as it changes a lot.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/05/25/part-1-jordan-root-is-a-confessed-internet-child-sex-abuser-should-the-village-church-trust-him/
Oh no. You’re getting your Mdiv.
Josh, how do you think child porn is produced? Someone rapes children and another photographs/videotapes those acts and the product is sold for profit to people like Jordon, who are sexually attracted to seeing children damaged by sexual acts.
Just because Jordon has expressed most of his sexuality while sitting in front of a computer jacking-off rather than pursuing children himself in real-time, doesn’t mean he hasn’t been “acting out”.
How can you not be aware of this?
Exactly, patrice, but I don’t think I’d waste a lot of time with Josh, here. He’s so tenderly young and so downright foolish (and likely a hardcore neocal to boot), just hope he one day has his eyes opened to the poison that he’s drinking at church.
I’m disconcerted by the number of Joshes out there. They have not been taught properly and yet they think they know it all. Arrogance, ignorance, undue immaturity: a nasty combo.
What’s on the internet stays on the internet, so at least our responses can do a bit to expose these neo-primitives, over time. That’s my theory, at any rate lol
I am from a Reformed background, and constantly surprised by how badly the neo-Cals get things wrong. In this case, ideas of covenant are twisted into caricatures so that they become power-moves rather than being about the loving constant relationship God has with His children. Sheesh
Good to see you here, Law Prof.
Why do you think you have the right to write this article? You’re not part of TVC. You’re not part of Karen’s life. You DON’T know the whole story because you’re not involved in their lives in any way, shape or form. You’re a misinformed person writing a positional paper on a situation that you have no authority over. TVC doesn’t boast large attendance; Chandler wished the church was smaller so that he could know everyone more. You’re using certain words to paint the picture that the elders of TVC are corrupt to make your article sound better. Since you obviously don’t understand what depravity is, I’ll at least note that the reason that she was rebuked is because of her immediate hatred of her husband, someone who she covenanted to be with til death (in case you and the rest of America forgot what marriage is). She is under church discipline for not even seeking forgiveness and reconciliation, NOT for disagreeing. People are deeply hurt all the time because people are people, but you don’t just leave them because they didn’t serve you like you wanted. His sin is atrocious. It was confessed. The church had him brought to the governemnt. The FBI was involved. He repented. She just left. If you think he’s not allowed to repent because he’s “too far gone,” then you don’t know Christ. You know Satan. You know legalism, and you’ve been blinded by your hypocritical self-righteousness to not lift a finger for a man who is lost in his sin while empowering a woman who is hell-bent on a road of angry bitterness for the rest of her life. No doubt, I have no way of even understanding her suffering in this situation. Her husband, who she covenanted her life to, has sinned terribly in a way I thank God that I am not tempted by. But she is only hurting herself by running away. The church is reaching out to counsel, but when you just spit in their face, the have to discipline. It’s not loving of God to let us live in sin; it’s His wrath that lets us do that.
Many good things were said in your comment that the author should heed.
I should probably add that I believe biblically that this would be a reason for divorce. The discipline was not because she sought divorce. It’s because she broke the covenant with the church and sought divorce without any consideration of grace. You know, that thing that God, the perfect Creator of everything who David says is the only One he truly sinned against by raping Bathsheba and murdering Uriah gave all of us. In case we forgot (which we ALL do ALL the time), our sins are all equally damning. Some sins are more destructive than others and are deserving of consequence, but we are fools if we think for a second that we’re any better than any other man for not committing whatever sin.
She didn’t seek divorce.
She was granted an annulment by the state of Texas on grounds of fraud.
The marriage, therefore, never existed because her husband was not capable of making or keeping the covenant vows that he did.
She can forgive someone and not attend the same church as he. There are other places she can get godly counsel and care. She spit in no one’s face. She declined politely to be under the care of elders who told her they did not “not yet know where we stand on any long-term implications for your marriage to Jordan”….as is her right as a Christian who is part of the priesthood of believers and does not require a human mediator between her and her Lord.
And why in the world would anyone require her to “reconcile” with someone who is still walking “through the process of repentance” and has already confessed/repented on numerous occasions only to have that turn out to be lies.
It’s ironic that you are chastising people for being misinformed….Mr. Pot.
To my knowledge, the Bible doesn’t acknowledge anything like an annulment. Let no man separate.
There’s no problem with her leaving and forgiving. One of them really should. I can’t imagine being in the same church as my ex. I wouldn’t feel safe or comfortable. It’d be incredibly difficult. But leaving without facing your issues is NOT healthy.
TVC is by no means the only church that preaches the gospel. There are many other good churches to be a member of.
And she’s not being required to reconcile. The covenant that she agreed to says that she is covenanted to seek it with the church. If it’s not happening, then they allow divorce (which is likely what would happen).
Oliver, if you’d done due diligence, reading all the material posted at Watch Keep, you would have learned that:
1. The discipline came because Karen didn’t wait for the leaders to catch up on all the info that she’d already been processing for a couple of months, just so they could take their time processing it to make the decision for her.
2. The discipline came because the leaders foolishly didn’t understand that there can be no reconciliation for a marriage in which one partner is only sexually attracted to children.
3. Discipline was threatened and then begun after she formally exited the church. Their refusal to accept what was fact, means that their subsequent disciplinary actions were defamatory.
4. Karen gave thorough “consideration of grace” because she left the church so that Jordan could stay. And it was grace that caused her to warn those helping Jordan that he may have been abusing children in real time (as he admitted he did when he was very young) and that they must not believe what he says because he has been a consummate liar throughout her marriage.
Lastly, why do you bring up other sins as if they have relevancy here? “Yeah but hey, we all sin–you too.” Well, duh! By saying that here, you are doing the same thing as when you focus on the piddly issues of a membership contract. It allows you to drain the destruction from this situation, to evade the real evil. It erases your responsibility to tackle terrible wrongs.
Gather your courage! Face the travesty of child porn and the profound crookedness of pedophilia. Your leaders are not doing it for you.
Can you send me the link to what you’re talking about? I know I could Google it, but I want to read specifically what says what you have summarized.
With your last comment, are you saying that the church shouldn’t help the guy heal and run from sin? I don’t really understand it.
Read the material at Watch Keep. It’s been linked several times on this page. Also check Wartburg Watch’s last post or two. They have also been linked somewhere on this page.
Do you know anything about pedophilia? It is a deeply intransigent and complex disorder, and requires concerted effort by experienced professionals with field specialty for there to be any hope for those who suffer from it. The rate of healing is very low. I recommend you read Boz Tchividjian at http://boz.religionnews.com/
Village Church leaders are completely over their heads. Pedophiles lie like rugs, are great actors and very charming. From what I’ve seen/heard of Village Church leaders, they are overly-confident of their own abilities and under-experienced at handling evil. They have no idea of how deeply evil can become twisted into the personality of a human, and how difficult it is to face it down. They will be bamboozled.
I am the daughter of a sexually abusing Christian Reformed pastor. I know of what I speak.
Everyone can be saved. But for some, getting there is a terrible and long road.
Oliver said: “To my knowledge, the Bible doesn’t acknowledge anything like an annulment. Let no man separate.”
A man and a woman can not become “one flesh” when the man is only attracted to little girls. Any marriage vows he made were fraudulent, therefore nullifying the marriage covenant. Therefore, there is nothing to separate = annulment (marriage contract nullified).
It would be the same if a man married his two 14-year-old nieces. There is no reason to “reconcile” them or even for a church to “allow a divorce” at some point…the marriage never existed. And you would be outraged at any church that tried to enforce some sort of process of “reconciliation” on the 2 girls before saying this was never a valid marriage in the first place….at least one hopes you would.
And, BTW, that is what opponents of same-sex marriage would argue…a “marriage” between two men never really took place because they can not Biblically make the required vows…even if the “words” were said. As they were in Jordan and Karen’s case.
What “issue” would you require her to stay and face to be “healthy”? The issue that her husband facilitated felony child rape? Bizarre.
PS – It would be good if you chose to increase your knowledge of what annulment is and why it is acknowledged Biblically.
Oh cry me up a river! where in the world does someone receive discipline for “not forgiving”? This is between the Holy Spirit/God and Karen. NO elder or pastor has any right to put a child of God’s under this bondage! This is abuse of power, for then a pastor can deem ANYTHING a right to discipline. There is nothing in Scripture that states this right of a pastor. In fact, there are more verses that talk about the abuse/deception of false teachers.
This is Geneva style gestapo tactics and is ruining the body of Christ not doing anything to build the body up in love. I find it also hilarious that many come on here crying and whining that the language is so vitriol. really??? I find no foul language or violent language, just people verbalizing their opinions. This is also an “attack the messenger” to make that person feel they are wrong for even verbalizing their dissent. You just want to shut it down so it does not make TVC look bad in any way. Maybe it is time to look inward and realize your own mistakes in putting the children of God in bondage by placing undo burdens on Karen. Leave her be. If you are so certain that God predetermines our fate ( I do not, I believe in both predestination and free will) then maybe it is Karens predestinated fate to be out of TVC.
So whose authority do you submit to if not man’s in some way? And don’t say the Bible since it was written by men.
You can’t rely on yourself to interpret everything correctly and see your blind spots. You’re a sinner. And that’s why they’re blind spots. Because you don’t see them.
And there’s not discipline for those who do not forgive. There’s damnation. I don’t know how Jesus could be more blatant. Matthew 6:14-15
You really do sound like some brain-washed cultist. It’s rather scary and I hope you are just very young and I pray you are not married or in a church “leadership” position.
Acts 5:29
Matthew 23:8-12
1 Cor. 2:15-16
Separation, leaving the church, neither of those is incompatible with forgiveness. Quit conflating godly and biblical forgiveness with TVC’s bizarro and controlling church of practices.
The defenders just make TVC (and similarly governed churches) look more like a cult. Your bizarre reasoning is only convincing to yourself and your fellow members. To the rest of us, it makes you look crazy.
And they could all use a course in being concise.
I think the reason for the article, Oliver and Josh, is because the writer might care more about what the Lord says than what men say. The Lord clearly told us to expose evil. Virtually the entire NT is people calling others out for evil, whether they were a part of the other’s church or not.
The larger problem here is that Oliver, Josh, and other extraordinarily foolish people posting here care more for the rules of men (and sadistic, twisted wolves at that) than the words of the Lord. The blind leading the blind.
Yes, what an evil bitch to flee a CHILD MOLESTER. He paid money to watch children be raped over and over and over,,…. for 10 years. He admitted to abusing children. himself.
He gets off with an “oopsie?” I don’t think so. She had every right to leave his sorry self in the filth he wallows in.
“Why do you think you have the right to write this article?”
He has the right to write this article because this is the United States and we have the freedom to express our opinions here. Same reason you have the right to express yours here in this comment section.
Stupid question.
Oliver took a long time to tell us to “shut up”. We ARE the church, not just The Village Church, and it is OUR business to take care of our sister Karen.
Oliver,
You’re right: You do not know Karen’s suffering in this situation, but I do. I was married to a pedophile for many years. He admitted to the authorities to having dozens of victims. It is absolutely vital to for her to get out for the protection of her family, her neighborhood and her church.
In the Gospels, Jesus gave clear approval for divorces for matters of sexual immorality. Who are you or Matt to defy Jesus?
You’re the judgmental one. And it makes me wonder what evil you are doing in your own marriage. What are you telling your wife about your bad behavior? That she has to stay?
If that is the case: To your wife, I say the same thing as Jesus: You are under no obligation.
There is nothing in the academic literature that indicates that pedophilia ever goes away.
Yet another example of the f***ked up Southern Baptists and their backwards mindset. I know, because I grew up in their tradition, and thank God I’ve escaped it.
A more thoroughly account: http://www.christiantoday.com/article/church.disciplines.wife.for.wanting.to.divorce.husband.who.admitted.paedophile.leanings/54480.htm
Prov. 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right,
until the other comes and examines him.
Josh, the Christianity Today post is a news summary. That you think it is thorough shows that you still have not taken the time to read the materials at Watch Keep. And yet you pontificate with confidence! Why would anyone give serious consideration to your opinions when you are that sloppy?
So, that summary is more thorough than the website that has all of the original emails, letters, etc. between both parties?
Yeah, that makes sense. (eyeroll)
One sincerely hopes your research on the course work for your Mdiv is not as sloppy and careless.
I’ve been in Karen’s shoes not exactly the same issues but some just as serious. I walked through church discipline with The Village Church. After 4 years, 2 1/2 separated from my husband. I was granted “permission” to divorce and still took an additional year plus to file. It is now final within the last few months and it will remain in my heart the greatest tragedy of my life. I never wanted this, I just wanted the chaos to cease in my home. Marriage is scared and should be taken as such, always even if we give up our own rights for this is Christ. I now feel like an outsider in a community of believers I dearly loved. It has been the most heart wrenching, devastating experience of my life. I must say for all of those that have walked with me, many Village members, the love of Christ in you saved me.
I will say this, The Village offers a great platform for those that want to reconcile when both parties are amicable to do so. However, when one person refuses to do so their system seems a bit flawed. I love the Lord but now find it very hard to be involved in church community formal something that was always a huge commitment prior to this experience. I do however maintain many relationships with those that attend The Village and elsewhere to remain in the community of believers as I work through my hurt as this is my failing and lack of trust in Christ not the responsibility of the church. Let no part of this discourse lead you to believe that I have not forgiven every word spoken from the human perspective that caused me harm. Even in this experience when those that called me to discipline failed the Lord provided. The church always encouraged me to seek Christ and in doing so I found a deeper relationship with the only One who has the right to judge. Please remember that while these men and women may have created a system that is flawed in some ways at no time do I believe they maliciously meant harm nor do I believe they are on a power trip as has been suggested to me. They pointed to Christ even in their own failings and Christ was found.
My own experience has created some hurt but here is the bottom line. You are responsible for yourself and your actions regardless what anyone else does and you have no power to see into the hearts of men. Forgiveness is always a best case senecio. Everyone must work out their faith in fear and trembling and justice seldom appears fair. There are those that would judge me and have for walking the road I did and others that would judge Karen for the road she chose. Both of us would be better served by prayer. Regardless of the road either of us walked it was and is filled with steep paths full of darkness that we will face alone under the watchful eye of a loving God.
The greatest lesson I learned in choosing to sit under church disincline regardless how flawed it was is that none of us realized the depth of depravity in which we live. It would behoove us all to fall on our knees and weep for the gracious gift of the blood of Christ the reconciles us to the almighty creator of the universe. Only in Him and by Him is there any hope of surviving the darkness we walk in daily. Some just are more deceived to the extent.
I pray my brothers in sisters in Christ that if you find fault in this or any that chooses to lead people in the name of Christ, pray fervently for their own wisdom and understanding for it is a great load the carry so that those that follow can see.
Jill I am so sorry you went through what you did. It takes courage and boldness to do what is right which sounds like you did.
I do, however, disagree with how much power you seem to want to relinquish to mere men. The Bible is straightforward that the elders at the time of the NT were older men who took care, nurtured, exhorted and kept the flock from harmful teachings of deceitful teachers who wanted to take AWAY their freedom in Christ.
There is no scripture that states we are under a government type system of church; in fact, throughout the centuries when church usurped the authority of Christ being the head it only resulted in disaster. In the case of Jordan Root, one thing right TVC did was alert and take him on/accept his repentance BUT this does not at all erase the consequences of abuse. He should be in clinical counseling (not church counseling only); he should not be around children EVER; he lost his wife over this (which is acceptable being adultery/sexual sin); he should be making restitution to the victims (and in my opinion he should be in jail). TVC has only stated that Jordan Root is receiving counsel from them and that is unacceptable. TVC is shifting blame to Karen (both covertly and out in the open) and that is unacceptable. TVC is usurping the role of the Holy Spirit in dealing with Karen’s heart. Karen has stated that she has sought the counsel of JESUS and feels she must step away. This is what matters and she cannot disobey the counsel of the Holy Spirit; this surpasses any “elder authority”.
“The greatest lesson I learned in choosing to sit under church disincline regardless how flawed it was is that none of us realized the depth of depravity in which we live.”
Jill this other comment is disconcerting to me also and I hope you realize that when you have become a Christian you are NOT depraved anymore. You are a child of God’s and adopted as righteous. When the teaching of depravity is taught to believers it takes away the accountability of children of God to do what is right. When someone (elder/teacher/church) states you are still depraved you will believe and do depraved things because you “can’t help yourself or I am predestined this way”- this is a reason I think many acts of depravity are done in the church. Paul the apostle states we are able to do and think what is good; we have the Holy Spirit living inside of us and He gives us the power. We are declared clean before God, but can act in the flesh and sin, yes, but we have the power to change and grow. Why else is the NT filled with action verbs- do, grow, set your mind for things above, take your thoughts captive, give, etc…… We are not mindless robots waiting for God to predestine His work in us.
When TVC says she has broken their covenant, they mistake themselves for God. Our covenant is with God, not the local church. It’s this type of bad doctrine that leads to idolatry of the church and hurts the people of the church.
You got it, Tim. At the end of the day, they’re worshiping their system, the one that either gives them power or gives them to potential to one day grab it. When you’re worshiping a system or and institutional church rather than Jesus, I doubt there’s much love left over for people like a woman who’s been deceived by a child abuser.
What amazes me is how many people are willing to gulp this poison down and say it tastes good. I hope they come to know the real Jesus, the One who said it would be better to have a millstone around your neck and jump into the water than harm a little one.
But I guess when you love your local church rather than the True Church and the Groom to that Church, you gotta hurt a few people along the way to prop up that local church idol.
Possessing Child Pornography is a crime. Why has the church not reported this activity to the police? They have a confession and I am sure Jordon’s computer contains plenty of evidence of the raped and sodimized children he gets off on. Why would his wife feel safe in this environment? She was married to someone who used marriage as a way to hide his perverted interests. She was not a wife, but his “beard”. This marriage was a sham from day one.
Why would this church want a woman to be an accomplice to criminal activities? Do these ignorant elders believe a sham marriage would in anyway change Jordon’s behavior? This long pattern of deviant behavior is deeply ingrained and is rarely cured. If the church had turned Jordan in to the authorities, maybe his wife would have felt safe enough to go through their process. With no consequences, Jordan will only exacerbate this sick behavior.
They’ve made a god of their covenant, and a fetish of marriage. Yes, marriage is sacred, but not so sacred that it sanctifies a ceremony undertaken with fraudulent intent to conceal a child abuser.
The worst thing about this is that the Village Church is putting the interests of a man who has done terrible things, over a blameless woman. Jordan only confessed when he was found out – that is very telling. Now TVC is in the extremely unenviable position of having to watch him like a hawk for the next 20 years or however long he sticks it out with them.
We may all have sinned and fall short etc. etc., but sorry, some sins are worse than others. A lot worse. Why are TVC cuddling up all cozy-like to Jordan, aw schmookums, you’ve repented, praise the Lord! while putting Karen out in the cold? Something is very wrong here.
Just a couple of observations. First, what power does any church in 21st century America have to force members to stay within the membership? I can see church discipline being enforced by dismissing someone as a member, but there is no legal power of any church to force someone to stay behind. The membership agreement or covenant may be binding on those who wish to observe it, but the church has no authority to enforce this agreement beyond the four walls of the building. Their decision to use libel and slander in place of any actual authority is ill-advised, and endangers all of us who believe that our churches should not have to fight litigation as we try to do what God wants us to.
Secondly, I advise her to seek out a church with less than 200 members, which does not need a light show and a multimedia display to “worship,” and where the pastor knows everyone by name, where she can be known by the entire membership, and actually experience church and worship instead of an organization and entertainment.
What does for better or worse mean?
I don’t know, what did Jesus mean when He said divorce was allowed in cases of adultery and that the death penalty would be better for those who harm a little one? Or is what Jesus has to say as relevant as what your local church pastor or youtube preacher hero says?
Your question is rather vague. Would you like to clarify exactly what you want to ask?
Is there a link to an article in Christianity Today? Your link just goes to something called Christian Today. Not the same thing, I think.
There just aren’t enough swears for all of this. Matt Chandler is trying to play God in a narcissistic display of power. This is just straight up abuse. Abuse of his position, spiritual abuse of one of the victims, and abuse of the system.
This situation is somewhat similar to the ABWE scandal from a few years ago. Anything that happens overseas can’t be prosecuted here in the states. Of course the FBI aren’t going to do anything, they have no legal grounds.
I’m dumbfounded that they are not taking the advice of Karen to check and see if this has escalated beyond just child porn. If not dealt with properly, this man has the potential to do horrible things to children. The chance to re-offend is 90% for those who do not get help. And by help I mean from professional counselors who work with sexual offenders. There’s also a very good chance that this will escalate…even if he’s doing so-called “accountability”. Here’s a clue Matt Chandler, sexual offenders are incredible at lying and covering their tracks. He may seem to be “submitting” to your leadership, but unless someone has eyes on him 24/7, you have zero guarantees that he isn’t up to no good. Chances are he’s just manipulating you for his own purposes.
Can anyone say “Sharia Law”
You Guys need to chill out. If I was married, and I willingly signed a covenant membership.. Then I signed it and agreed to it. If you read the 8 page statement like I did you will see that the church has done everything in their power to get justice served and care for Karen and get her help. If would be gross if no authorities were called and his sin was kept seceret. So please stop complaining about a situation unless you take the time to know all sides and you have an understanding of what a covenant memership means.. As a sexual abuse survivor I still thing the way things are being handled are right. Now mind your own buisness.
“Expose evil” – The Lord. It’s our business.
You obviously don’t have all the facts, so, yeah, good idea “to take the time to know all sides”. That 8-page doc is one side. Try Watch Keep–lots more pages and another side.
You stated, “the church has done everything in their power to get justice served and care for Karen and get her help.” which would be awesome if she had asked for it.
I’m pretty sure that in the many hilarious ways the bible defines marriage, none of them are between a pedophile, a woman, and a congregation.
Stop defending cults. I’m embarrassed for you.
MPT, back to your original question: Dear God, what is Matt Chandler thinking? He is probably thinking he can do whatever the hell he wants and some people will actually form a line to defend him. He is probably thinking that there will always be people on the planet who prefer not only to be told what to do, but will happily pay someone (they’ll call it a tithe) to fill that role.
And judging by some of the comments here, he’s right.
As for me, this is why I’m done with Empire. And I won’t be part of a Christian community that is built on the concept of Empire. Ever.
Guess what? I read the 8 page statement and all the other related documentation.
If you signed a church membership agreement, would you think for one moment you would need to first ask “if by chance in the future, I discover my husband entered into marriage fraudulently according to the state of Texas and has been viewing violent child rape videos for 10 years, will you support me getting away from him or will you require me to submit to his headship and reconcile our marriage?”
I have no doubt she thought she was agreeing to letting pastoral staff counsel them through any “normal” marital issues that might arise….”My husband facilitated felony child abuse” is not a martial issue at all. She didn’t desire their “care” when they told her they “do not yet know where we stand on any long-term implications for your marriage to Jordan”.
The church may have handled things correctly regarding their care of Jordan (although they were not the ones who called the authorities and kept the reason for his recall secret for 3 months), but failed in their “care” of Karen.
So chill.
A church membership agreement is not a binding contract. She is an adult who can make whatever decision she wants or needs to make for the sake of her family’s safety. She shouldn’t have to wait for permission from anyone. About 99% of the people I’ve seen who think she needs to do what she’s told are men. I think that’s very telling.
Pretty sure he’s the author of it.
But, besides that it’s a massive waste of time to read. He’s just another looney who allows a fairy-tale book authored by illiterate sheep-herders to dictate his opinions; i.e. his choice to turn a blind-eye to the actions of Israel against humanity and blindly support them.
I can see how a cranky outsider might take it that way.
If I didn’t care, I’d definitely be reading something I found more interesting, but hey, if you get a kick out of reading things that are a massive waste of time, have fun…
The husband should be arrested. Child pornography is illegal regardless of what church you belong to. The only other thing I read in the article, attachments and comments is CULT. This is not a church. This is a cult, plain and simple. Run, don’t walk.
The way they are handling this is too reminiscent of the Mars Hill debacle. Unfortunately though I did not expect something like this to be handled in such a manipulative way by the TVC leadership it is very similar to my past experience with this ministry and others of its ilk.
This is how large corporate ministries operate and their cries of “seek our counsel” and “membership covenants (which are made up and non-biblical) are all manipulative control mechanisms to prop up their kingdom and keep butts in seats. I learned this the hard way. Also it is interesting that the mature, balanced counsel of other believers outside their org structure is never good enough for them. They take it upon themselves to “guide” and “counsel”. For anyone with a healthy dose of common sense this is a transparent ploy to control both of the stories and bend both parties to their plan… and limit legal culpability and media scrutiny.
I heartily applaud Karen for her obvious spiritual insight, following wise, logical counsel and maintaining a strength of conviction through this whole mess. I wish her joy and success as she moves on.
I have just finished reading this blog and a couple of others that included the email/letter to church members plus Karen’s detailed and truth-revealing response.
All I can say is that Karen is a courageous woman, a hero, and quite possibly by her actions has spared many children from being potential victims of her ex husband.
As for the church? Wrong.
In fact, it reminds me of a cult. Somebody somewhere in these comments here or elsewhere referenced the old “Shepherding” movement of the 70s-80s In the early eighties, I worked for a minister who counseled ex-cult members dealing with the aftermath. We worked with some from the Shepherding cult. The level of control, public shaming, and less regard for women than men comes to mind as I learn about this “church”.
Thank God the REAL church is not brick and mortar but spirit. I’m glad Karen has “shaken the dust off her feet” and found another fellowship group. Those men will one day be held accountable.
The comments that defend TVC all seem to do the same things:
– Tone policing
– Sin-leveling
– Moving the goalposts (i.e. “Doesn’t Jordan deserve forgiveness?”, which literally no one is talking about)
– Elevating the abstract institution over the real person who has been harmed, and potential future victims
– Prooftexting
We could get a bingo card going.
People keep talking about whether Jesus would allow a divorce in this instance. Look at his words: “I do not permit a man to divorce a woman.”** He says nothing about a woman divorcing a man. Why? Because in his time, for a man to divorce a woman was to leave her extremely vulnerable — she was essentially considered tarnished property that no other man would likely want to buy. She would be condemned to a life of poverty. He doesn’t give two shits about the sanctity of marriage — he wants to protect people who are vulnerable.
In our context, marriage and divorce are different things and require more than just blind application of a contextless translation of a document written in an ancient language.
Did Jesus care about the institution of marriage, or the real, live humans in the marriage? Who do YOU care about?
**This story is told twice, and the exception for adultery only occurs in the same Gospel where Joseph was thinking about divorcing Mary for adultery.
This is not the middle ages. This church is sickly and that man should be thoroughly investigated. I award her for staying completely away from these crazies.
http://pulpitandpen.org/2015/05/28/a-rational-response-to-the-criticism-of-village-church/
Between this and the whole Duggar thing, I’ve been thinking about church abuse situations a lot over the last several days. Here are a couple of thoughts I’ve been able to formulate over that time.
1) People are too quick to see themselves in the accused, and too slow to see Christ in the victim. Who’s the Accuser in Scripture? Satan. If the image we use is the accuser/accused dichotomy, then that makes the accuser Satan, and the accused me. And if the accused is actually guilty, well guess what: so am I. Should I be denied mercy, too? A friend of mine on Facebook said something to the effect of, what if everyone knew my sins? (Let’s set aside the fact that yes, I would look at you differently if I knew you had molested children.) This train of thought leads to more support being shown to the abuser than the abused.
I think there is a much better image to keep in mind in these scenarios: that of the innocent Victim, who is punished because of the sins of others. Except there’s no larger redemptive purpose, and the victim isn’t freely offering him/herself. Think of “whatever you did for the least of these, you did for me.” If we are to see the poor, naked, jailed, hungry, etc. as an alter Christus, how much more should we see Him in the face of a person is suffering, through no fault of their own, for the sins of another?
2) To me, when you hear an abuse story and you circle the wagons for the abuser, it’s like hearing the story of the Good Samaritan, and saying that Jesus really ought to show a bit more grace to that poor Levite who crossed the road to avoid the beaten and bloodied man.
3) In these situations, there is always a period of “repentance,” followed by full restoration as though nothing had ever happened. If you say it wasn’t enough, there’s some passive aggressive response that more or less asks how much repentance they need to show before you’ll forgive them. As though forgiveness equals full restoration to previous status. My response is this: how much repentance should an alcoholic show before you’ll let them have a glass of wine? Point being, just because you’ve forgiven them, doesn’t mean things can, or should, just go back to the way they were before. Even after the One Ring was destroyed and its power broken, Frodo still was never able to fully heal from the wound of the Nazgul’s blade without going to the Undying Lands.
I usually hate the guys that just post out of context scripture on comment sections…but there is one idea missing from this conversation. I’m not going to give my commentary on it. I am posting it only asking that you let it simmer first, then ponder the implications for all of us:
Ephesians 5
12 For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.
13 Therefore, put on every piece of God’s armor so you will be able to resist the enemy in the time of evil. Then after the battle you will still be standing firm. 14 Stand your ground, putting on the belt of truth and the body armor of God’s righteousness. 15 For shoes, put on the peace that comes from the Good News so that you will be fully prepared. 16 In addition to all of these, hold up the shield of faith to stop the fiery arrows of the devil. 17 Put on salvation as your helmet, and take the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
18 Pray in the Spirit at all times and on every occasion. Stay alert and be persistent in your prayers for all believers everywhere.
If you don’t want to be under the authority of your church, don’t become a member. PS what is your beef with the Puritans?
Pedophila… for God’s sakes… why are we even talking about this?
This would be the sort of evil the necessitates stoning.
Yes, someone else on another blog wanted a “godly response” and that was my answer: stoning and millstones with drowning are God’s solution for those who harm children.
He confessed to molesting 2 kids and watching child porn.
Felonies all.
Karen is a free, autonomous being. She can make her own decisions.
Her Totally depraved husband motivated her to Unconditionally elect to leave the marriage.
Although sufficient for all, it was not efficacious in her husband’s case and Limited atonement pointed her to the Irresistible grace of changing her situation. We can now see the Perseverance of the saint as she tip-toes through the T.U.L.I.P.s and out into her new life.
It blows my mind how all these people (including the author) have all these opinions all the sudden… Like everyone suddenly became experts on church discipline and how TVC is run. Yet these people have nothing to do with our church or the covenants we willingly enter into. Also, it’s completely foolish to think Matt Chandler is the “judge” presiding over all this… As if he is the one pulling on the strings at the end of all this. If you remotely knew anything about our church you would know:
1) Matt Chandler is the lead teaching pastor and the roles are bifurcated
2) the discipline was handled internally within the Dallas campus (set staff)
3) they actually issued a public apology recently and owned up to not carefully considering all perspectives and shedding light on the difficult position of supporting both parties
You seem to have insider knowledge here and hopefully you are in the position to shed some light.
1) Your church is too big if the head pastor doesn’t know that a confessed pedophile is regularly on your campus and his wife was being pressured by the elders (to the extent that her mission agency was blackmailed) to reconcile her marriage. Matt claimed he “loves” Karen..but you are now saying he knew absolutely nothing of her situation?
2) Does TVC’s reconciliation process allow for a very general “public apology” or does it require a specific confession of specific sin to the person harmed? Do you know if this has been done to Karen?
3) Has the “set staff” of the Dallas campus been internally disciplined for gross misapplication of “authority”? Have they each personally sought forgiveness and reconciliation with Karen (this would probably need to be done in writing through her lawyer at this point so there could be no attempt to manipulate the process)? Have they publicly confessed and made restitution for blackmailing her mission agency in a attempt to force her back under their authority?
4) Do you have any inside knowledge of why Dallas staff decided not to inform members for 3 months of Jordan’s reason for being recalled from the mission field…instead recommended that families (including those with children) “love on him”?
5) Do you know what kind of counseling Jordan has received? His former mission agency and Karen are under the impression he was send to a TVC member with no specialized knowledge or experience in treating pedophiles. A counselor who saw him once a week and after a month or so, declared him doing so well, that he only needed counseling every other week. This…after 10 years of viewing violent child porn.
If you are actually a covenant member at TVC, you should be very concerned about the authority the “set staff” thinks it has to bind a believer’s conscience and seize control of every aspect of a member’s life, including financial.
A disturbing example of but one problem w/ a church practicing & enforcing (almost cult like) elder RULE.
If it was a mere viewing of pornography, although disgusting, it hardly qualifies for biblical divorce. There’s no evidence of pediphilia and unless that comes to light God’s word trumps modern culture’s desire to throw away everything we’re disgusted by. Reconciliation is the right thing to do.
Jordan did something heinous and responded in repentance. Murderers do the same and receive grace and mercy from our Lord. However, Karen is unwilling to forgive, unwilling to keep her vows, and unwilling to keep her promise she made to a church simply because Jordan’s sin is particularly gross to us.
I’m pretty sure all of our sin is unbelievably gross to a holy God, yet he reconciled us to Him through the greatest of sacrifices. My mother took my father back after an actual physical marital affair. That’s worse than viewing pornography and their lives have been incredibly blessed because of the forgiveness and obedience that followed.
1. Pedophilia is defined as sexual attraction to children. So yes, he’s a pedophile.
2. He didn’t just view pornography, he viewed child pornography. That means he looked at pictures and videos of actual children being actually sexually assaulted. He did this because he’s a pedophile- meaning sexually attracted to children.
3. He used his and Karen’s joint finances to acquire these images and videos of people sexually assaulting children. He did this dishonestly and for years. Had he relapsed while she had shared finances with him, she could be on the legal hook for his felony.
4. Karen did not break her bows to this man, she unknowingly entered into a marriage covenant with a man who had neither the ability, nor the intention, to keep his vows to her. She is legally and morally justified ending the relationship.
5. You’re making a huge judgemental assumption about her motives for leaving Jordan and TVC.
Karen explained clearly why she left Jordan: she was defrauded by her husband who used her money to repeatedly commit felonies that contribute to the sexual violation of children. You don’t just get to make up your own reason for her leaving, ignoring what she says is essentially calling her a liar. What you’re doing is a sin, you have no moral grounds to judge her heart. That is for god.
6. Of course god can extend his grace to everybody, murderers and pedophiles alike. And of course we should extend grace to everyone as much as christ’s love fills us as well. But you’re dangerously deluded when you insist that extending grace to Jordan automatically means Karen is required to allow him access to her and her finances. TVC is dangerously deluded as well. They had no business getting involved that way, that was graceless to Karen.
Tl;dr don’t be a sanctimonious butt plug, inserting your domineering morality into someone else’s life without a clue as to what that “morality” actually demands ntalking about binding up burdens for others to carry.
“mere viewing of pornography” = 10 years purchasing and viewing felony child rape during a time he had access to hundreds of vulnerable children.
If Jordan had told the pastor officiated his wedding about this but told him to keep it a secret from Karen, would the pastor have gone through with the ceremony? Of course not.
So why do you expect Karen to remain in a marriage that her husband was only able to acheive by gross fraud – as determined by the state of Texas.
Which is why she didn’t have to even seek you “biblical divorce” which, BTW, Jesus said was permitable for fornication. So she would have been ok there there, as well.
What your mom did doesn’t matter here.
And if you are in an position that allows you to “pastor” or “counsel” Christians who can be manipulated by the falsehoods in your post, please quit not.
proof reading is my friend
YOUR “biblical divorce”
no need for “there” twice
“now”…not “not”
Lord I pray for all these fine brothers and sisters that love you so much and yet they can’t reach a conclusion on this matter. I pray for the village Church, all the leadership there, I pray for the party in question here Jordan and Keren. We what glorifies you is what I seek out of this and may other issues out there that leave us in dis-array rather than united. And yet you said let us be one this means even in the face of such things, you want us to be one. Let us defeat the devil’s trick of disintegrating us. It breaks my heart to see brothers and sisters trading in the devil’s coin of accusations and counter accusations. Lord it is not a matter of who is who, but in all what glorifies your name? The book you gave us to guide us is used as a tool to tear one another. Lord I know there is a better godly way we can handle ourselves in such matters that your name remain glorified. Lord take over and superintend before we are overly destroyed. It will be my joy to see you in all our troubles. Amen
Possession of child pornography is a state and federal crime that involves videos and pictures of children being raped. This man should be serving jail time and placed on a list of sexual offenders. Has he been arrested? If not, why hasn’t anyone reported him? That is the more pressing issue here.
He was reported, however the FBI didn’t find anything on his laptop, so they couldn’t actually charge him with anything. Even though he admitted to viewing it, he didn’t leave behind any evidence of criminal activity. One of the Wartburg Watch articles talks about it (I don’t remember which one because I did a ton of reading on it yesterday).
The fact that they didn’t find evidence speaks to what an accomplished liar he is. He was smart enough to know how to erase where he had been. So amazing how the people in this church are so willing to cover up this sin. David’s sin was exposed to the world through God’s Word. So were the sins of all the other men of faith. They all repented and were added to Hebrews 11. But not without true repentance. We can’t judge this man, but from what I’ve read, I believe the church needs to be very, very careful. They will be held accountable for his sin should he be fooling them. I highly recommend that all of you log onto Leslie Vernick’s site. She deals with abusive relationships and has a blog and newsletter. http://www.leslievernick.com
This terrible story reminds me of the scripture “you strain at a gnat and swallow a camel”- I thought our response was to ever be “let us always err on the side of grace”.
Does God hate pedophilia? Yes. Does God hate divorce? Yes. What T.V.C. was trying to do was address both of these things. They probably could’ve done a better job addressing Karen through the process, and I hope they seek forgiveness from her. All parties (Jordan, Karen, T.V.C.) have things they could’ve and should’ve done.
This is a terrible situation. One of which I would hope no one ever to have to go through. Anyone who vilifies Karen or Jordan or the Village doesn’t understand grace. We are called to take the Lord’s perspective in all things and seek reconciliation on every level. Is God’s grace sufficient to cover the sins of a child molester? I am no less a sinner than Jordan, but God is a great Savior. This article could’ve pointed out the Village Church’s failures while pointing people to the gospel, but it failed to do that. A missed opportunity for sure.
I don’t think anyone seriously wants to excuse what this man did. Forgiveness is quite a different thing altogether as C.S. Lewis points out. Forgiveness is profound precisely because it accompanies an action that is inexcusable. So yes, welcoming a pedophile into the church (while holding him incredibly accountable) is exactly what Christians are called to do; As Jesus says plenty of times in Matthew, the way that we forgive others is the way we will be forgiven by our Heavenly Father.
I wasn’t in the decision room in the Village. I genuinely think they are trying to do their best. Could it be that the church genuinely felt sorrow and empathy for Karen but saw another issue present in this situation, namely that of forgiveness on the part of Karen? There are more forces present here than pedophilia. Unforgiveness, compassion, all of these things and many more take a role in this issue. Obviously, I cannot know her heart. That is between her and God. The Bible allows for divorce on the basis of adultery, and I think an argument can be made that pedophilia can qualify as such. But it must also be acknowledged that the whole reason that divorce was given was because of the hardness of human heart. In the letter from the Village, it seems that their issue was more with the swiftness of the annulment/divorce. Their desire was to see reconciliation, and it seems like they were frustrated that seemingly (emphasis on seemingly; I cannot know her heart) little effort was being made for reconciliation through the church body. And because of this reason, not so much divorce per se (though I could be wrong) church discipline was enacted.
Now, The Village apparently feels as though they messed up, and they apologized. That takes lots of humility, and they are taking steps to change what are apparently rigid policies, but most of this article is rhetoric. In this case, the church is called to love both Karen and Jordan well. It seems as though they could have done a better job. Certainly so. But they’re trying to do more than simply show who was right and who was wrong. They are trying to show what radical forgiveness looks like. Unforgiveness is unacceptable, and if it is present in the life of any believer without resolution and steps towards reconciliation, it is worthy of discipline. She may have forgiven him, but then she may not have forgiven him.
With respect to Jordan, a simply nod to repentance is not the only thing that must be done. Steps and precautions must be made. Helping the law to its full extent is paramount. It is not as if his sin is trivial. It is disgusting, but by heavens it is forgivable by the Lord Jesus, and it must be forgiven by believers. Otherwise, we simply aren’t true believers.
These situations are incredibly complex and difficult. No doubt it could have been handled better, but once again, there was much more going on here than simple by-laws. Reconciliation and forgiveness were being pursued by the Village. Hopefully the same was done by Karen. I cannot imagine her hurt. That must be devastating. I just think the gospel picture is so much bigger than separation. Granted, I am not her, nor have I experienced her specific situation, but maybe the pursuit of forgiveness (even if it does not mean staying married) is what the issue was here.
Welcoming him may not in fact be the correct response, even in an ‘incredibly accountable’ way, though you do seem to be stuck with him. If the American evangelical church (such as Driscoll’s thankfully defunct Mark’s Hill) habitually shuns people who have mild theological disagreements with the pastors, how much more should it shun someone who has done terrible things to children?
Forgiveness may be required of us all, but there is no timeline for it – each case has its own specifics. It’s a bit like the myth that becoming a Christian will instantly change you overnight. That can be the case – we see it for example in people with drug addictions or a violent past, and these rare cases are extraordinary and humbling – but not here, I think. Jordan only ‘confessed’ and ‘repented’ because Karen found him out. Insta-forgiveness may not be the ticket here. Forgiveness may need more than the usual amount of long-term repentance, demonstrated over years, maybe decades, by Jordan with no access whatsoever to children or perhaps computers unless heavily supervised. The timeline is between God, Karen and Jordan. The church can have an opinion on that, but it can’t force it on her.
As mentioned earlier in the previous comment, I never said that forgiveness was instant. In fact, it often takes repeated choices not to hold an offense against someone. And no doubt, forgiveness would be incredibly difficult, but not impossible. I’ve seen something like this before, and forgiveness and reconciliation did happen within the context of the church. Whether she has forgiven him, I don’t know, but the effort MUST be made (by her and ALL Christians) to forgive. There is no place for an unforgiving heart. That is required by Jesus in the plainest terms.
Along with that, church sponsored separation with the hope of eventual reconciliation is another option. One does not have to go immediately for divorce/annulment. Taking time apart to digest and heal is certainly permissible and I think prudent. And if reconciliation is still not possible then divorce is permissible, but it is almost impossible for anyone to make a decision with a cool head in the midst of this firestorm. That’s the point of the church covenant, to try and help provide outside guidance in situations like this. Certainly the village could have done better.
And yes, accepting him is absolutely the right thing to do. All kinds of people must be welcomed in the church. Pedophiles are no exception. Turning the case over to the authorities can be done in conjunction with acceptance of the sinner. Keeping him as a member can be done while keeping him away from the children and keeping a shadow on him. We don’t have to be unwise when we deal with these issues. Get him psychological and spiritual help. Accept him and denounce his sin. Christ has done so for believers.
And lastly, I don’t understand the Mark Driscoll reference. Seems a bit off the issue. Sure he was reformed and evangelical, but these are two different people and two different churches. I know of many evangelicals who disagree with their pastor and are not shunned, and I don’t think the gospel allows us to shun pedophiles either. If that’s offensive, so be it.
One of Village Church’s missionaries went to another country to bring the the good news of Jesus and sat in his house watching pics/vids of children being raped. That missionary was sent home and remains a member in good standing because he said he repents.
Part of repentance includes making restitution. So when we hear that Jordan has been cooperating with the gov’t to track down the sites that he spent so much time on, then we will know that he is truly repentant.
And since he was a member of Village while doing these things, and since he is still a member, restitution is also required of the church body. It is their obligation engage a ministry that deals with child abuse porn. So when we hear of an active ministry of this sort at the Village, then we know they are truly repentant.
At that time, forgiveness comes into play. A person cannot forgive those who don’t believe they’ve done something wrong enough to require restitution.
“At that time, forgiveness comes into play. A person cannot forgive those who don’t believe they’ve done something wrong enough to require restitution.” I’m sorry. That simply is not true according to Jesus. Forgiveness has absolutely nothing to do with whether someone acknowledges their wrong or not. Jesus makes it very clear that forgiveness must occur no matter what. He himself pled for forgiveness on behalf of the executioners at the cross despite the unrepentant nature of the Pharisees/Romans. Saying that someone must acknowledge wrong before forgiveness can be done really misses the essence of forgiveness. Certainly forgiveness is often a process, but the effort must be made.
As to restitution, that seems fair. We can tell true repentance by how someone acts though I prefer a different term but that’s beside the point. I agree that full cooperation should be made to take down child pornography. It’s evil and perverse, but once again, the church has in fact turned everything over to the FBI. I am also pretty sure that equating one member’s sin with an entire church is a parts to whole fallacy. The church as an institution did not view pornography nor assent to its use. I’m not in any way saying that the village is perfect nor am I trying to belittle Karen’s experience. It’s awful that this happened to her.
He may be in good standing but it is not as nearly good standing as your words make him out to be. He is severely limited. He is receiving consequences for his actions albeit imperfectly.
I don’t any way want to come across as a jerk or completely insensitive to Karen or completely a fanboy of the village. But there is more going on here than most people want to acknowledge. The ultimate goal is not so much vindication but reconciliation. And yes, justice and due process can still be enacted in conjunction with forgiveness.
fis49…forgiveness is a relational action. When someone doesn’t think they’ve done anything wrong, the burden of the wrong remains with them, nothing is learned, and they will do that wrong again somewhere else. The person who has-been-done-wrong can eventually come to a place where the wrong-done no longer has power inside and over them, but that is a non-relational event and thus incomplete. This is just how it is.
The word “forgiveness” all too quickly becomes a schmooze for not dealing with the reality of damage. When the relational component is left out, all the work remains with the wronged-person who is already carrying the total burden. Don’t do that to them.
The bit on the cross was God-the-Son talking to God-the-Creator about a third party who were doing wrong. They were standing in for the whole lot of us and Jesus was essentially saying that his work was going to cover it all. There is little that can be dragged out of that for this situation. None of us are gods.
Also, I didn’t say you all did what Jordan did. Honestly, what’s up with that? But when your church leaders decided to take Jordan in, he with his problem became all yours to deal with. That is what community does, yes?
Of course reconciliation is the point—that is bottom line for every single church I’ve ever attended. I have no idea why you mention vindication. Repentance doesn’t work unless it starts with the full truth and that is very difficult to get with a pedophile.
Finally, you and your church don’t forgive Jordan—he did nothing to you. His wife might forgive him in her own time–that is none of your business. God can forgive him if his heart is indeed honest. He needs to ask forgiveness from the thousands of children he watched being sexually assaulted. How will he do that, I wonder?
The job of your community is to make sure that he gets all the therapy he needs to examine what is at the bottom in his pysche/soul and to weed out the stuff that is a horror (this takes years), and to keep him away from children and opportunity for viewing child abuse porn in the meantime. That is a sober and difficult job that you all are taking on. I do not think you have much idea of it.
The Mark Driscoll reference comes from him starting the Acts 29 Network of churches with a certain set or criteria and practices required to join and Matt Chandler replaced MD as president of Acts 29.
Connect the dots.
That he started the organization does not allow us to impose what he did upon another church. The village church was quite upset with Driscoll though reached out once again to extend forgiveness to him. So my question still remains what does Mark Driscoll really have to do with this? Not much. He may have started the organization. Sounds to me like a previous association is being imposed on the situation.
Disregarding the amount of Driscoll DNA that remains in Acts 29, you cannot forgive Driscoll for two reasons: 1. He hasn’t confessed what he actually did to those he harmed, face to face in real time. 2. He did nothing to you.
In the same way, Mark cannot, with integrity, just get up and announce that he forgives all those who he thinks did wrong to him, most obviously because no one has asked him to forgive them. And that would be because they did nothing except not let the truth slide back out of sight.
Your words are unreality. It is much better to be real. Truly, it is.
“Matt, what were you thinking?” Maybe his brain tumor did more damage than initially thought.
A cult refuses to let her resign? What impact exactly does that have, actually? Are they going to show up at her door and force her to attend their weekly biblical brainwashing sessions?
here is the link to a form letter to resign in a way they are likely to accept
forgot the link here it is
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/02/01/how-to-minimize-damage-when-resigning-from-a-mark-driscoll-like-church/
Shame on you Church!
I guess you saw that catchy line and thought I was going to crucify this pastor. Over the last few days I have read multiple ministries evaluating how this could happen. How its wrong. I’ve watched christian media using tag lines to catch readers like the one above. To all of you I say, SHAME ON YOU!
We are the body and you are tearing your own arm off. To you own detriment I might add. You read what one member who was hurt, now very vocal and because of the dire situation blow it up without proper investigation. Because it was treading? Well I’ve been there in similar shoes, in this church, with this pastor. Many will read this and know the words I’ve said angry, hurting, trying to reconcile my own experience. I have a different story one of a journey she chose not to take. That many say the church never had the right to ask me to take.
First and foremost if you put your hope in men and don’t expect disappointment then you have swallowed the lie of the fall that humans are good. We are not called to follow men but God. It is only in this that we have any hope at all. I have been at The Village Church for more then 10 years yesterday as I sat in service only to marvel again at the clear hand of God on this place. That in the wisdom and timing of God, He chose that on this appointed day to lead a church and a man to teach on the last few verses of James and reiterate the teaching that was given many years ago about how to address sin within us as a group of followers of Christ. I’ve watched this scenario play out multiple times here at The Village long before it was considered a mega church. I saw a man who is gifted to teach the word humble himself to apologize for his lack of leadership in an area that has caused harm to himself, those he leads with, those he shepherds and mostly to the name if Christ. I’ve seen firsthand his heartfelt true godly repentance on multiple occasions and not just him but others in leadership as well. I know him beyond words on a page. He is my pastor. Can you slinging your opinion around say the same or have you already pick up stones? It took time for Joseph full of pride, Moses a murderer, David a murderer and adulterer Abraham a liar to learn to lead. People got hurt, but God redeems. God was in control of training his leadership then and He is now as well. It isn’t always about the situation that created the chaos that is most important, its the response if the man.
Sometimes we don’t do things well, it doesn’t mean we can finish well.
I’ve read the multiple statements from this woman who I feel a certain kinship with because I know the betrayal of sexual sin in my house. I know the feelings if wanting to protect yourself from the consequences of the one you love’s sin that could gobble you up in a moment. I know the anger, the sadness, and the over powering sense of helplessness. I know what it’s like to pray and fast for the Word to be manifest in your life and in your marriage. I know the sting of feeling like know one really understands because they haven’t stood there. I know what it’s like to have to keep going when you’d rather take your life. I know the grief of wanting to take your life and the sound of the Holy Spirit calling you be the only thing that saves you. I know the down right indignation of having a church tell you what you feel they have no right to. I know what it’s like to not be believed or believed in, your heart and motives questioned. I know what its like to be told its your fault when the situation was completely out of your control. I’ve stood here too. I know. I know! I also know the power and protection of living under a covering and how God fills the lack when that covering fails. I know the peace and certainty of obedience. I know that when that submitting to authority no matter how corrupt is honored by God if He put you there. Over and over I’ve seen God protect me even when there were failings because what goes on inside restorative and redeeming in His name by His word and that is something He honors. Now at the end of a journey guided by the men and women called to the ministry of reconciliation at The Village Church, I can honestly say knowing the outcome I’d take all the hardship again to be standing where I am I am today. A journey that has lasted all of those 10 years and more. Its the very reason I came to The Village in the first place. I pray for her. I pray for her heart that it would its be soothed by the loving grace of God. I pray understanding that she would see God’s almighty hand in the depth of the darkness in which she stands, God I know the loneliness and hurt of that darkness. I pray for reconciliation where ever it can be found because it brings peace to a soul. This really isn’t about her though, it’s about how we as a church universal conduct ourselves in times like these. We still haven’t learned what The Village is actively trying to teach.
I’m thankful for these men and women at The Village that called me to reconciliation over and over and over again with my then husband. I am thankful they pointed me to Christ. I cannot think of one instance in which I asked “what do I do?”, usually covered in tears and holding a breaking heart, that I did not hear, “seek God”. In ways the leadership at The Village failed me, as man will do but they pointed to the One that never will and in that gave me the power to sit here today reconciled with myself and my God, strong in the knowledge of Christ and not heart broken. Really isn’t this what the church is suppose to do? Sometimes reconciliation doesn’t look like you expect and it rarely happens quickly or smoothly. Knowing now that I stood on the word of God no compromise and the outcome is in His hands and not mine brings peace but it was a long time coming along a path of great suffering. The tragedy of the loss if my marriage is a sobering reminder that I am flawed and only have value in light of the saving grace of God.
Unfortunately, churches are run by humans. Humans sin. It’s basic logic that at some point someone is gonna get hurt. The amazing thing about allowing humans to run churches and the sin that will inevitably ensues is that it allows us as humans to be more like God. Its true, to forgive is divine. In light of sin we have an opportunity to give a gift to ourselves and to those that sin against us. We get to participate in an action that makes us more divine then fallen. We get to find the blessing and the power in reconciliation through forgiveness of sin. Isn’t that the picture of the cross. It never looked so beautiful. Let’s however not forget that the beauty there is covered in dirt and sweat and blood. It’s covered in pain and sorrow and loss. Its covered in those that sinned against and the One who forgave to bring reconciliation of us all to God Himself. It was messy and smelly and took time to come to the revelation that it wasn’t death but life. I took years from Genesis 1:15 the promise to the baby born under the light of a guiding star to the resurrection and still we wait for His return. It’s a journey forever unfolding.
The longer I walk with the Lord the more I find that He allows things that cause hurt and irritation in our lives to remain longer then they are comfortable to us. He allows us to wrestle with them to see if we can line our lives up to His word, we never really can alone. We wrestle and lose the fight sometimes bloodied and hurting more and ask why. Then He bids us to come to fight once more. Some will come others not. Those that do will war again until we find we have no fight left. We then sit willing to just do what He asks because we have no strength to do otherwise. This my friends is where we find Him. This is where our soul leaves us, broken and His spirit comes in to restore what has been lost. It is this moment that you know the depth of your depravity and the power of His saving grace. The moment you know that only in Him and by Him and through Him can you gain anything of value. I found the depth of my Lord here at The Village Church under the broken best leadership of Matt Chandler. If you want to evaluate him on the testimony of one be careful you may trip in the darkness.
I beg of you church pray for this woman who loves God and is struggling to make sense if all this chaos. Pray for The Village leadership that they would be able to lead well. Pray for the church universal that we would learn to forgive those that fall short in leadership for it is a heavy burden fraught with opposition.
“…I also know the power and protection of living under a covering and how God fills the lack when that covering fails. I know the peace and certainty of obedience. I know that when that submitting to authority no matter how corrupt is honored by God if He put you there. Over and over I’ve seen God protect me…”
I am glad that you found a bottom in your distress, Jill, and that you are ok again.
But take me who, as a child, was sexually abused by my Reformed pastor-father for years, while listening weekly in church to all those good words you repeat here, from his mouth. I could not find God in the middle of all that. Unfortunately, I am not all that rare. Plus there are worse hells out there, say for eg, children who are filmed being sexually abused for others to view at their pleasure.
In order to know the truth as big as it is, it has to account for experiences such as mine and of those terribly abused children. I have learned that authority is not honored by God when it is doing evil. Moreover, obedience to corrupt authority only deepens the damage and spreads evil. You can say otherwise only because you’ve been protected in many ways. Again, I am glad that is so for you, but you probably shouldn’t draw any conclusions until they are wider than your own experiences.
For you the question becomes something like this: how can I and my church make the presence of God known to those children that Jordan Root paid to see abused?
This is what is so enraging and frustrating. Ok, let’s take a VICTIM who has every biblical and LEGAL right for an annulment, and bring her in to make sure we “counsel” her out of it. If she doesn’t like it, we’ll make her aware of our policies that as a member, she must follow. I want to know how they use Scripture to back up their policies? It sounds as if leadership at TVC has a problem with authority – mainly God’s.
Let’s assume that I swallow complementarianism hook, line, and sinker (which I don’t, but think it has certain attributes which may be right, but not all). Let’s assume that I’m the male. Wouldn’t the ENTIRE reason for complenmentarianism is that women and children need protection? What kind of protection are either getting from TVC when they cushion and coddle a criminal and then worse, invent their own rules and expect a victim to follow their rules because they want to hide the crime and the criminal? Or does this view of women and children instead of offering protection for them, encourage them to be victims and entirely dependent upon their “leaders”?
You know what they SHOULD have done? As SOON as they were aware of this man’s addiction and crime, report it to the authorities, and give the name of a Psychiatrist (medically trained). Then, provide counseling from a REAL licensed, medically trained therapist for Karen. They should have helped her when she made it clear she would be following legal and biblical means to dissolve the marriage (this marriage was NOT valid in the state of Texas due to fraud by Jordan).
That this subject has this many responses is appalling to me. Jesus died for each of us and also to establish his ‘church.’ How sad that His ‘church’ would respond in this way. And it sickens me that the majority of those sticking up for the way this church has treated Karen are men. Men who have no clue what abuse does to women and children. The ‘good old boys club’ that will shield and protect at all cost. Isn’t that the story of Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart and even Ted Haggard (who at last report was receiving a severance of over $100k) – do you really think NOONE on their team knew something was wrong????????? And isn’t it interesting that Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart are continuing to live high off other people’s money? Wake up church!!! Stop funding these frauds!
I’d like to add that I would totally support efforts to help this man be healed and be whole. But there is no way I would recommend that Karen go back to him until he has been completely healed. And even then I’m not sure that I would completely trust him. He was in church leadership and had everyone fooled. He is an accomplished liar and he’s gotten away with it for years. Unless there is true repentance and recognition of the awfulness of his sin, he will continue lying (and the way the church is responding – I am pretty confident that is what will happen). I doubt there is anyone on this comment board that has the authority to throw even one pebble at Karen. You have no clue what this can do to a person. Karen, you will be in my prayers – and I applaud your courage in taking a stand against this horrible sin (which in my opinion is worse than adultery).
I will continue on my quest to seek out a church family that is truly ‘proclaiming the entire gospel’ rather than ‘accommodating’ what they perceive the ‘relevant’ church should be. Truth and light – will dispel the darkness.
All the Chandler advocates should invite Root over to watch their little girls. People are delusional.
What a JACKED UP WORLD we live it!!! Lord cover us all with your AMAZING GRACE!!!
Covenanting with a Church – sounds cultish – and all those braying in favour of this village Church cult with some pastor who likes the sound of his own voice should do the world a favour and throw yourselves in the sea – preferably with a great weight around you. What a bunch of weirdo’s following cult procedure. I’d never covenant myself to a Church. Which Church did Paul covenant himself to – freaks. Makes me glad Europe is secular – and we gave you reform in the first place. What you go and do – make a cult out of it! Shame on you freaks – signing pieces of paper and getting on your knees to some want to be pastor. Losers the lot of yah!
hahaha…sorry, late to the discussion…just couldn’t pass over how ignorant your comment is. Full disclosure…there are LOTS of churches in “your” “secular” Europe that have covenant membership. Lots…So you can call “us” freaks…but we get it from you guys too. I now embarrassing, eh?
Thanks for the reformation BTW (since you apparently own that by nature of being European?) I thought that was a Holy Spirit thing but anyway…back to the reformation, that was awesome!
Yes I have definitely noticed that men are not supporting the woman, which to me sounds a lot like the majority of the American Society. Well, let me rephrase that. In fact, I think you’d get more support of the men outside of the church than you have on this blog. And I find that, as a male, to be very sad but also not too surprising.
But I would guess that at least several men on here have been abused themselves. However, since men aren’t “allowed” to be victims, it isn’t acknowledged and then it gets projected onto others. That may not be Sola Scriptura, but it’s the truth.
Yes abuse happened to me as a boy, so I know its effects. Men may often express abuse differently,(acting out as opposed to internalizing) but the effects are equally as bad.
Now we know why the government want’s nothing to do with the church.
Sad the way we treat one another. Sadder, actually angery, that innocent child are abused and people participate in this evil. Important to be able to express and reveal our concerns.
I just wanted to share this update that Karen received full apology in person from Matt Chandler and an elder. Also granted her request the leave the church. Amazing grace. Forgiveness here is the link to the article
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2015/may-web-only/matt-chandler-apologizes-for-village-churchs-decision-to-di.html#bmb=1
Okay, a lady in my Divorce Care group. (DivorceCare.org) divorced because of Child and adult prono. She told me about this and left the church too. Matt is such a gifted teacher and the church is mostly healthy. I will stick to my pastors strong grace message. (Large community church in Frisco, TX) In fact, almost all church that I know of are big on grace. I just noticed the apologize comment above. That makes me happy. I do think the church should have more discipline, but on more black and white issues. Prono could be a type of cheating.
Welcome to the cult of Calvinism. Poor hermeneutics, eisegesis, and a God who determines all his creatures sin, unconditionally in a decree. And when you want to leave the Family….good luck!
Just because you have an opinion doesn’t mean you are right. I don’t know details that you are apparently have an inside track on but Karen would’ve signed a document stating her adherence to membership practices of Village Church. It shows an incredible lack of grace and ignoring of her marriage covenant to say “I will not attempt reconciliation”