Congratulations Indiana. You’ve done it. Your Christianity is free! That’s how your promoting this new law, right—as freedom? Freedom from the gay agenda? Freedom from governmental influence? Freedom from the words of Jesus to love thy neighbors?
And what “freedom” it is, too. I mean, seriously, your religious bakers no longer have to make butter cream frosting for lesbian mouths. Your Jesus-loving construction workers are legally protected to say no to the gay couple who wants to build their first home. All of your faith-based business owners can now safely and legally avoid selling their products to the good people of the GLBTQ community. That sounds like some amazing freedom.
However, I’m still not sure why your state’s Christianity is so afraid of gay people. You guys bake wedding cakes and build houses for Pentecostals. And you do that without blinking an eye. I mean, if you’re so bent on protecting your state’s faith, you might consider discriminating against those Pentecostal people who turn the Gospel into magic tricks, 401k plans, and pony shows every Sunday. They seem far more dangerous to your Christianity than gay people who want to get married.
But then again, you and I both know this new law has nothing to do with protecting Indiana’s religiosities. If that were true, you’d have stopped making wedding cakes and homes for a long list of people years ago. No, this law is about giving so-called Christian business owners the freedom to be jackasses if they want to. You’ve given them the right to discriminate against a group of people who have been discriminated against since pretty much the beginning of time. How does that make you feel? Proud? Lonely? Christ-like? But what I don’t understand is why. For what cause have you passed this new law? And please don’t say you’ve done this for Jesus. Just don’t go there because there’s nothing remotely Jesusish about this law.
If I’m honest, I actually feel sorry for the business owners who are celebrating this new “freedom”. Because for one thing, what do they really have to celebrate anyway? I mean, I can only imagine that the thrill of “Yay, we get to discriminate!” won’t last long. I mean, come on, you and I both know that discrimination is exhausting over time, even for Christians. And they’ll not only be fighting their consciences—yes, deep down they know this new law is wrong—but they’re also fighting against the grain of an entire culture. Sure, that fight will cause them to feel as proud and haughty as Puritans for a while because going against the culture does that to religious folk. But soon, that pride will fade and keeping up the passion for avoiding gay patrons will become a great burden. Hate is a terrible weight to carry. And then, at some point, their freedom to discriminate will intersect with their personal lives. They’ll learn that somebody they’ve known and sold things to is gay or they’ll find out that their son or daughter is gay and then they’ll have to choose between their freedom and their emotional connections.
Is that freedom?
But Indiana, mostly I feel sorry for your Christian business owners because you’ve given them a free pass to stop evolving. That’s right. In your attempt to offer their faith-based convictions a little ease, you’ve actually put them in a kind of prison, one that will keep them inside their closed-minded little worlds feeling safe and “free” from gay people. You’ve given them the right to pass on conversing or interacting with a multitude of really good people. But not only that, you’ve put up one more roadblock, a divider that will prevent them benefiting from the stories, the experiences, and not to mention, the pocketbooks of some amazing people who happen to be gay. And sadly, people who have permission slips to be intolerant remain intolerant.
You’ve taken a huge step backwards, Indiana, a step back that will have consequences in the years to come, a step back that makes life harder and more cumbersome for all involved, a step back that other people will have to invest time, energy, and money into fighting against in hopes of overturning. You might call it religious freedom, but we both know there’s nothing about it that’s religious or free.
Viagra is for the treatment of inability to get or keep an erection and similar states when erection is of low quality. When you buy remedies like cialis from canada you should know about cialis online canada. It may have a lot of brands, but only one ATC Code. Erectile malfunction, defined as the persistent impossibility to maintain a satisfactory erection, affects an estimated 15 to 30 millions men in the America alone. Sexual soundness is an substantial part of a man’s life, no matter his age etc.
They’ve given them a free pass to ignore the Christ they are supposedly are following. Christ ate with the sinners, washed the feet of sinners, healed sinners, served sinners and was not worried other people were thinking he was supporting their lifestyle. He simply was about the mission of connecting people to God. And then he called us to do the same by loving God, neighbor and enemy–so I am pretty sure acquaintances and those I disagree with are included in the command to love. What does love look like? Giving my shirt when they ask for my coat. Going an extra mile when they ask for one. Debating the cultural and literal meanings of Leviticus and Romans is one thing…..but Jesus is pretty straight forward. He kept a party going by turning water into wine (everyone was probably well on their way to some state of intoxication by that time as well). He touched the untouchables. He never asked anyone to change first before he offered forgiveness and healing. It was only after they came into contact with Divine Love that words like “go and sin no more” were uttered. God have mercy on us for being jerks when Jesus called us to be Love.
Did Jesus ever participate in the sin of the sinners he ministered too? The photographers and bakers who have refused servicing gay weddings believe it crosses the line from ordinary customer service into the realm of participating and celebration of the lifestyle. That doesn’t indicate hate.
The Christian businesses that have been sued and fined for hundreds of thousands of dollars recently are being legally compelled to violate their conscience. Something Romans 14 clearly says we should never do to our brothers & sisters, even if we disagree with them. Yet that is what you propose be forced on them. Paul took sides in the Romans 14 debate. But he clearly said we can’t judge our brothers and sisters for following their conscience.
Jesus turned water into wine so people could keep partying. You think any of that wine led to sinning? I’m guessing yes.
Paul also thought that killing Christians was a good thing at one point, so take anything he said with several grains of salt.
When did Paul say that?
Acts 8:3 Back when he was in his better call Saul days.
Ok, I was thinking of his epistles. So his past disqualifies his epistles? Really? I hope not, because it’s only in his epistles that we really see the full picture of God’s grace. And without grace, Christianity is lifeless.
When a Christian baker makes a cake for a Bar Mitzvah – as they are required to do by law – they are not participating in the Jewish rite of passage or condoning the rejection of Christ as the Messiah. They’re simply baking a cake.
The “participating in sin” argument is untenable. It betrays both the hypocrisy of the baker and the contempt they hold for gay people.
They shouldn’t have to bake the Bar Mitzvah cake either.
OMG!
how is baking a cake or putting floral arrangements participating in sin? Are you telling me that bakers and florists all approve and endorse every event they bake a cake for or create arrangements for? When did people start going to bakers and florists for approval of their event or choice?
My brother’s first marriage was to someone I told him I did not approve of and that I was not happy about his wedding. But I went to the wedding…to support my brother as a human being. He knew I didn’t support the marriage.
I am pretty sure that as a child of the Creator you could be creative and say something like, “I don’t agree with same sex marriage because of my faith but I will make the best, most beautiful cake I can.”
I agree Zeckle, you could. And kudos on supporting your brother. But we aren’t talking even about what we think we SHOULD do, or even what the loving thing to do is. We’re talking about legally obligating others to do it.
I think it’s duplicitous for the same people that say, “You can’t legislate morality”, to legally force others to violate their conscience. I’m not even saying that the bakers shouldn’t make a cake for a gay wedding. I’m saying it’s fascist to legally obligate them to do so.
But they made cakes and took pictures of non-Christians at their weddings, why is this just now coming up, oh bigotry. There are many sincere religious beliefs that believe gay people should be put to death, they even helped Uganda codify it. Are people and businesses free to murder now?
Imagine the horror when they find out that Bill Gaither was once a Pentecostal.
Yes, it is freedom. Freedom for a Jewish printer to not have to print “Death to Israel” posters. Freedom for a black seamstress to not have to sew KKK white pointy hats. Freedom for a survivor of child molestation from having to cater the ‘Hebephilia Association Annual Meet & Greet’. Freedom for a Christian photographer to not have to shoot two women’s passionate tongue kiss on their wedding day. Does the gag reflex I feel when I see two men make out reveal I don’t love Jesus the way I should? Why should I have to photograph that? And if I choose not to, should I face the threat of hundreds of thousands of dollars in lawsuits? That makes me a jack ass, for not saying, “Awww, isn’t that cute”?
It’s not about not selling a cake to certain people. It’s about the freedom to not celebrate their lifestyle.
The description of this law as motivated by a desire to not service gay customers is either purposely disingenuous, or ignorance. People wont refuse to sell cakes, take photographs, build houses and businesses, 99.9% of the time. When the request is to participate in the disagreeable behavior that we should all have the freedom to say no. Photographing a gay wedding, or baking the cake, or printing materials for perversity can be more than just customer service, it makes one part of the process.
Jesus did hang out with sinners, but He also said, “Go, and sin no more.”
Lets review:
“Death to Israel”
The KKK
Pedophiles
Homosexuals practicing committed monogamous relationships.
One of these things is not like the others.
I hear ya on the gag reflex. I can’t help feeling really squeamish when I see a scene involving a passionate kiss between a man and a woman. It’s just so unnatural to me, it must be wrong– you know? That’s why, as a committed Christian lesbian editor, I won’t work on stories that have hetero love scenes.
Does mean I don’t love Jesus the way I should or that I’m a jackass because I don’t say, “Aww that’s so cute”? No way! When Jesus said love your neighbors as yourselves, he just meant the people who are exactly like you. Those hetero authors can write whatever they want, but I shouldn’t be forced to celebrate their lifestyle!
Cool! And so you’re free not to. See how the freedom thing works now? It’s not all fascist in saying, “Agree with it, or I’ll sue you into oblivion.” Now THATS hate.
That’s
Should a Muslim business in Indiana be able to post No Christians Served in Indiana? and if a large muslim community supports them, and kids in the neighborhood think these muslim dudes are cool and many convert and keep supporting the business, should no Christian be able to put up a finger and say, “Wait a Second!” And when she does, and the Muslim business countersues, as they were just expressing their religious liberty…should they win? Should all religions be equal in their ability to say NO…or is this just a Christian thing?
A Muslim bakery should be able to refuse service when a Christian requests a drawing of Muhammad, or wants pork in a recipe, or something inherently anti-Muslim in it’s request, yes. And No, it doesn’t just apply to Christians.
The Christian bakeries aren’t saying they wont sell to homosexuals. Some are not participating in gay weddings. There’s a difference.
Here’s a prime example of how only Christians are singled out for this:
http://www.westernjournalism.com/hidden-camera-gay-wedding-cake-muslim-bakery/
What cracks me up is the incredulity of MPT and many others when these laws have existed federally and in many states previous to Indiana for YEARS. Where’s all the discrimination they predict? Nonexistant. There’s also propaganda that makes this strictly about lgbt when the law protects concientious objectors of ALL kinds. The point of the law is that a minority belief is protected from litigation… as it should be. Do any of us really want the government forcing is to do business with people we don’t want to? Is that what we’re arguing in favor of? Think of those implications before you throw around the word “discrimination”… wouldn’t we all prefer the right to discriminate in some situations? Its all just complete sensationalism bathed in ignorance and we fell for it by clicking on this page.
Jay: Should a Muslim business in Indiana be able to post No Christians Served in Indiana? and if a large muslim community supports them, and kids in the neighborhood think these muslim dudes are cool and many convert and keep supporting the business, should no Christian be able to put up a finger and say, “Wait a Second!” And when she does, and the Muslim business countersues, as they were just expressing their religious liberty…should they win? Should all religions be equal in their ability to say NO…or is this just a Christian thing?
“Do any of us really want the government forcing is to do business with people we don’t want to?”
Lol. You actually said this out loud.
Maybe it was early April Fools Eric?
ok, fine. but we will crush your state economically if you allow one of these laws to be signed by your governor, as is happening in Indiana now: Mike Pence has committed political suicide on a national stage, the daft punter. As for Mark Lepard: your views on a normal LGBT person are pretty out there. No way you are making any friends in “sensibleland” here…
Will you crush the other 19 states that already have the law, or will you crush Clinton who signed the same law federally in 1993, or Obama when he did the same as a state senator?
Translation: hey, Billy did it too!
You anti-lgbt types need to stop with this middle school line of defense. Historically, hundreds of dumb laws have been passed. Adopting a dumb law is still, ya know, dumb on the adopter’s part.
Adopting it and then amending it to be even dumber would be, um… even dumber.
in the 22 years since Clinton signed it into federal law it has not once been used as a defense to refuse service to a homosexual.
You arrogant “I’m so much smarter than the anti-lgbt types” need to stop listening to the media hype of what this law is even about.
How about hearing it from a gay lawyer?
http://thefederalist.com/2015/03/30/your-questions-on-indianas-religious-freedom-bill-answered/#.VRo2GCP-_rM.facebook
I concede. Pointing out that Billy started it is a brilliant strategy.
and yes, there is absolutely NOTHING abnormal about being gay…there
Leave out normal or not normal. If you believe the Bible is God’s word, then you believe it is sin.
Out of all the debates and controversy around sexuality and faith, I believe these words from Jesus transcend any of it. This is the greatest commandment straight from The King, The Son of God, The Messiah.
The Most Important Commandment
28 One of the teachers of religious law was standing there listening to the debate. He realized that Jesus had answered well, so he asked, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
29 Jesus replied, “The most important commandment is this: ‘Listen, O Israel! The Lord our God is the one and only Lord. 30 And you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’[g] 31 The second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[h] No other commandment is greater than these.”
32 The teacher of religious law replied, “Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth by saying that there is only one God and no other. 33 And I know it is important to love him with all my heart and all my understanding and all my strength, and to love my neighbor as myself. This is more important than to offer all of the burnt offerings and sacrifices required in the law.”
34 Realizing how much the man understood, Jesus said to him, “You are not far from the Kingdom of God.” And after that, no one dared to ask him any more questions.
So Micah, is it loving to remain silent when your brother is committing grievous sin? Paul said Love does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Since the truth is that sexual sin, whether it is adultery, fornication, or homosexuality, is clearly wrongdoing, why would anyone compel another to participate in that? That’s not freedom. That’s not loving.
Then I guess all Christian bakers and florists had better start asking some very personal questions to all couples who ask them to provide cakes and flowers to their weddings. Wouldn’t want to accidentally participate in the wedding of a fornicator or adulterer.
At our church we don’t marry people that have been fornicating without a period of ceasing from the practice and counseling. But in any event, it is different. The wedding ends the sin of fornication: not so with same sex weddings.
I would like to share this article except for the comments.
I guess I don’t understand how a law that has been lauded by multiple, liberal, SSM-supporting folks can be simply about Christians wanting to discriminate against gays? Have you read the following? http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2015/03/29/indiana-religious-freedom-prothero/70632870/ and http://www.indystar.com/story/opinion/readers/2015/03/07/indiana-needs-religious-freedom-legislation/24477303/ and http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/31/opinion/david-brooks-religious-liberty-and-equality.html?smid=tw-nytdavidbrooks&seid=auto&_r=2
Any of you ready to force Muslims to violate their conscience? Or is it only Christians that you will exercise your fascism on?
http://www.westernjournalism.com/hidden-camera-gay-wedding-cake-muslim-bakery/
You have absolutely no understanding of what you are unleashing with your support of something like this. I don’t even know why people reply to you because you are so closed minded that not even a word from the sky from Jesus himself would get your attention. I’m sure you’re a very nice person deep down. It’s a shame that all we understand of you is from what you’re posting on this forum.
Thanks for your understanding Stephen. Not sure which view you have a problem with. That homosexuality is a sin? That freedom for those you disagree with is true tolerance? Or perhaps that forcing people to violate their conscience is fascist tyranny?
“I’m still not sure why your state’s Christianity is so afraid of gay people. ”
WHAT? This definitely needs to be said OUT LOUD: Having a conviction about the rightness or wrongness of a thing DOES NOT mean that I am “afraid” of it. It means I have a conviction.
Businesses have reserved the right to refuse service to anyone they choose for a long time.
Why is this an issue today? Because this is one way militants are able to keep their agenda in the forefront of the news.
Hey–sorry to comment on this late but–quit blaming this on Indiana! There’s been plenty of Hoosiers who were appalled at this law and have been protesting it–not to mention the accepting small business owners that are working to advertise their inclusiveness and avoid being painted with the same brush.