In February, ten days after Andrew’s Mars Hill story/experience posted (part 2 of Andrew’s story), I received an email from Amy (her name has been changed). This is how her email began:
“Dear Matthew, I was one of the first people to be punished and ‘let go’ by Mark Driscoll (Mark) and his church’s leadership,” she wrote. “My now ex-husband and I were among the original Mars Hill members. We were a part of the ‘core group,’ the inner circle of the church, and great friends with Mark and his wife, Grace. We were close with the elders and their wives. And we both served within the church.”
Amy is one of nearly 100 former Mars Hill members who emailed me after Andrew’s story was posted. Something about her story stood out. The details. The history. The journey. She and I exchanged a few emails, mostly ones where I asked questions and she offered detailed answers.
I knew I wanted to share Amy’s story, but I didn’t feel like the timing was right until now.
In 1996, when Amy was twenty-years-old, she moved to Seattle. Tired of life in a small town and wanting a change in scenery, she says she threw a dart at a map of the United States (literally) and on the following weekend, clothes packed in a laundry basket and $400 in her pocketbook, moved to the grunge capital of the world.
After only a month, she officially hated Seattle–“mostly the climate,” she says–and was considering a move to the southwest. But that didn’t happen. Before she was able to plan her escape out of Washington State, a Seattle acquaintance introduced her to a man. He was seven years older than her, a musician who played in a Christian band, and three weeks after their first meeting, he became Amy’s fiancé.
“We were young and clueless,” she says, “we got caught up in a whirlwind mutual infatuation.”
In August, a month or so after they were engaged, that young infatuated couple became husband and wife.
That fall, two months after they were married, the same acquaintance who introduced the couple, invited them to attend Mars Hill Church.
“Our first time visiting was right when Mars Hill was launching,” Amy says.
After a few visits, they became members.
“We were one of the church’s core members right from the start. The church didn’t even have a building. We joined when it was meeting at Mark and Grace’s home.”
Prior to becoming involved at Mars Hill Church, Amy’s church experience was limited.
“My mother sporadically took my brother and me to a non-denominational church,” she says. “I attended a few youth group events. I did occasionally go through times when I tried to live up to the standards that I saw in some of my peers, but I don’t remember having a genuine interest in church.”
According to Amy, she and her husband were in agreement about joining Mars Hill. “We didn’t feel hesitant or uneasy about anything,” she says. “To me it seemed like a social club with some ‘Jesus’ thrown in. I admit that I was naive at the time, but I sensed no red flags.”
Amy also genuinely liked Mark. “My first impressions were all positive. He was funny, quick-witted, a bit of a smart-ass–all qualities that I can appreciate. He seemed to be a solid ‘dude’–hip, pop-culturally aware, and down-to-earth. And I thought he was an excellent speaker. In the beginning, his teaching style was engaging. He wasn’t intimidating or insulting. It was nothing like his style today.”
In that first email, Amy wrote that Mars Hill became her only social exposure.
Can you explain what you mean by that?
Well, nearly every aspect of my life was connected to Mars Hill. My friendships. My free time. Everything.
Tell me about your friendships.
Before joining Mars Hill, I had never been the type of person to have close girlfriends, but I developed so many wonderful friendships with the other “wives”. (Amy now groans using the word “wives” in its “Mars Hill” context.) And these women were people that I trusted, that I relied upon. I never questioned their sincerity. We went through our first pregnancies together. We threw baby showers for each other. We were a part of each others’ lives on a daily basis.
Were you friends with Mark?
Mark was my husband’s friend and leader for the most part. But Mark knew me well. We were close enough that he felt comfortable throwing out a one-liner or telling an off-colored joke around me. Foul language was used regularly, even around me. Sometimes it felt like I was one of the guys. That was one of the things that made him seem like a real person, imperfect and relatable. I didn’t mind it at all.
How about Grace?
Grace and I were never the closest of friends. To be honest, I always felt a little like the “lesser wife” around her. So I didn’t really confide in her. I had other women in my life that I shared things with. Grace and I hung out alone on occasion and I admired her devotion to being a supportive wife. She was extremely submissive! But after years of knowing Mark and Grace, I couldn’t help but wonder if she was as happy as they advertised. Because slowly, over the years, Mark’s controlling “head of household” ways came alive.
My husband and I never felt pressure to have Mark and Grace’s attention. Because honestly, we had it all the time. My husband was well-known because he was a musician in a Christian band and that gave us a little bit of priority in Mark’s eyes. On many occasions I heard Mark bragging to church visitors about my husband being a member of the worship team.
Though Amy and her husband seemed to adjust well to life at Mars Hill, at home, the couple was struggling to adjust to each other.
“The truth just sort of hit us about three months after our wedding. I think that’s when both of us realized that we had made a terrible mistake.
Amy’s quick to admit that their marital mistake was their own fault. “I was married to a stranger, and so was he,” she says.
However, she also says that they both tried to make things work. “Both of us wanted to be the ‘godly married couple.’ And I think both of us really tried to be the kind of husband and wife that Mark often preached about from behind the pulpit.”
Mark’s sermons played a pretty major factor in the breakdown of their marriage. Amy says that Mark’s preaching, both stylistically and thematically, changed significantly during her time there. Mark began sermonizing more and more about the roles of men and women in the home, using his words to empower men to rule over their households, and encouraging women to remain quiet, submissive, and above all, serve their husbands.
“My husband was always pretty stubborn,” says Amy, “but Mark’s preaching made that part of his personality worse. He most definitely felt empowered by Mark to rule over me. I experienced that more and more the longer we were married. The church encouraged it. And my resentment toward that grew over the years.”
Amy says that she and her husband felt a great deal of pressure to be that couple that Mark preached about. Much of that pressure came after they began going to Mars Hill’s marriage counseling.
“About a year after we joined Mars Hill, we began meeting with elders and sometimes deacons about our marriage problems. Usually that involved dinner with a member of church leadership and then after eating, we moved into the living room for ‘the talk’.”
During those talks Amy often felt invisible. “Mostly because I was the wife,” she says, “a woman, the ‘weaker vessel.’ Because I was a woman, my opinions and complaints fell on deaf ears. But my husband’s opinions and complaints, however, were always heard. Any complaint he’d make, I was told that I needed to repent. Often I’d leave those sessions feeling depressed and angry, feeling like a child because I’d been reprimanded for not being an obedient wife.”
Mark also counseled the couple. During one of those sessions, Amy remembers Mark saying, “Hey guys, tough shit. It’s too late now. You made a choice to get married. Get it together.” That “tough it out” sentiment, Amy says, was often the advice they received from many members of church leadership, not just Mark.
“Once, when I shared with Mark that I felt neglected in my marriage, he told that I was being a nagging wife and that I needed to suck it up. That was something Mark preached about a lot–the nagging wife.”
Not living up to Mars Hill’s marital standards had emotional consequences, at least for Amy. “I felt a lot of guilt and fear, fear of disappointing the leadership or failing our other married friends. Sometimes I’d go through long periods of deep depression.”
One of the bigger obstacles to their marriage working, at least within the confines of Mars Hill’s standards, was Amy and her inability to become like the other wives at Mars Hill. “The longer I was there, the more I realized that I didn’t share the same ideals as those leading the church. I didn’t fit into their ‘wife mold’.”
What was it about your personality that didn’t fit Mars Hill’s so-called “wife mold”?
I spoke up too much. I wasn’t, according to them, “obedient”. I had opinions. Listen, I tried all the time to fit into that mold–you have no idea–but it wasn’t me. I couldn’t do it and I didn’t. I couldn’t just put my head down and remain silent. I was called “fiery” and “feisty” all the time, and I’ll admit, I am fiery and feisty. But that’s just me, a hot blooded Italian, I guess.
But I’m sure you weren’t the only married woman at Mars Hill who spoke up?
I was the only woman I knew who spoke up. All of the wives I knew followed along. They didn’t dare speak out. But that wasn’t me. I’ve always had a little dark streak–not a “mean spirited” streak–I’ve just always had a darker sense of humor. I like a little shock value here and there. I have tattoos and dark features. I’m also a fairly accomplished artist (she’s a painter of abstract and modern types of work on canvas. And today, she’s internationally known) and have always had a tendency to be more free-thinking.
And that was considered wrong?
Yes. I was often made to feel that, because I am different, I was living in sin and not conforming, that I wasn’t being obedient in my role as a wife. Over and over again, I was told that I was the problem, that I needed to submit, and “get my shit together”.
Amy and her husband’s marital unhappiness went on for years (the couple was married for eight-and-a-half years). At the time, leaving Mars Hill wasn’t an option. Her husband wouldn’t give it a second thought. And Amy’s unhappiness grew.
“I felt trapped,” says Amy, “And the guilt from our circle of friends at Mars Hill was unreal, sometimes oppressive.”
Amy says that she and her husband discussed the possibility of leaving each other on several occasions throughout the years.
“We hashed over getting a divorce for years,” Amy says, “but then the fear, guilt, and pressure would take over and we’d end up staying together.”
On one occasion in 2001, during a time when Amy struggled to become pregnant, she confesses that she’d almost conjured up the courage to ask her husband for a divorce. “I knew it would be better to do it before I got pregnant.”
But then, out of the blue, Amy found out that she was already two months pregnant.
“I’ll never forget what my husband said when I told him. He was standing in the bathroom doorway. I said, ‘I’m pregnant’. He hung his head and said, ‘Well, I guess we better try and make it work.'”
Just about twelve months later, Amy became pregnant again.
Amy adores being a mother, but she also admits that those first years of motherhood were some of the most difficult days of her life.
“I was knee-deep in diapers for 3-4 years at home alone. I totally lost my identity and grew even more depressed. I lost myself and felt, not only stifled, but undeniably trapped in my circumstances and surroundings. It was my only reality and I literally feared I couldn’t survive much longer because mentally I was downtrodden and unheard, it was unbearable and I knew I couldn’t go anymore. I felt like such a chronic failure compared to the ‘wives’ [at Mars Hill] and what Mark would preach I was supposed to do or be. I just couldn’t hit the marks he taught. And honestly, I started to see that I didn’t even want to.”
On numerous occasions, throughout their rocky marriage, Amy’s husband would confide to Mark about what was happening at home. On many of those occasions, Mark would summon them to his office for a talk. Amy admits that, toward the end, at a time when she describes her marriage as “in absolute shreds,” the whole “getting dragged into Mark’s office” routine was getting old. It happened so often that Amy began referring to Mark’s office as the principal’s office. “I felt like a ‘problem child’,” she says.
But Amy was wrong. She wasn’t a “problem child”, at least, not according to Mark Driscoll.
Amy learned what Mark really thought about her during one of those visits to the “principal’s office”.
This meeting took place in a private room at Mars Hill’s Earl Building**. It was only the three of them: Amy, her husband, and Mark. Amy was sitting beside her husband on a leather couch. They were facing Mark.
“Mark started the meeting by telling us he was convinced that I had demons,” says Amy, “and then he went on to add that my demons were ‘sexual demons’.”
Amy describes Mark’s demeanor toward her as a “fiery tirade”. During this encounter, Mark told Amy he believed that every one of her sins were “sex based.” He said that the demons inside her were out to destroy every one of the marriages in their circle of friends.
“At one point,” says Amy, “he asked me which one of my husband’s friends I had imagined sleeping with.”
Amy was dumbfounded by Mark’s questions and accusations. But she also admits, because she no longer trusted Mark, she was also slightly terrified of what was about to happen. (NEED PROOF? Mark “Sees Things”)
“A part of me didn’t give a damn what Mark was saying or what he proclaimed as ‘truth,'” says Amy, “because by that time I was already one foot out the door and I wasn’t buying what Mark was selling. But then there was a part of me that was also pretty spooked.”
Mark then announced that he would be performing an exorcism. Amy says that was the word he used.
“Mark began the exorcism by praying a prayer of protection against Satan and anything else that was not of God. And he asked for a ‘shield’ to cover us.”
Right before he started the exorcism, Mark told Amy that he would be asking the demons very specific pointed questions. “He told me that it would feel like a normal conversation.”
Mark stared hard at Amy and began yelling questions at her “sex demons”. His fierce glare seemed to look past her as he screamed his questions at her face. He asked the demons what their names were. He asked them about sex. He asked them about Amy’s past sexual sins. He asked them about Amy’s current lustful thoughts. He asked them if they were planning to destroy marriages in his church. And then he asked whose marriages were they planning to destroy and how.
And then, according to Amy, Mark cast the demons out.
So, was Mark right? Did it feel like a normal conversation?
No. Not at all.
Why do you think Mark claimed that your “demons” were “sexual”?
It’s always his go-to topic. Ironically, my husband had more “demons” than one could imagine. But his demons were of no consequence and unimportant to the church. It was somehow my fault because “maybe I wasn’t the godly, providing wife” I was supposed to be.
That said, Mark was also aware that my husband and I had sexual troubles from day one. And regarding our sex life–because I was essentially grinning and bearing it most of the time–Mark concluded that I was a terrible wife to my husband. Even when my husband looked at porn, Mark blamed me because I wasn’t doing my “wifely duty”. I felt violated when sex was expected of me. I was intensely miserable and neglected throughout my marriage, but Mark deemed that irrelevant because I was the wife and my duty was to serve my husband sexually.
Of course, I had my own “sin” just like anyone else and I was open about it. I was frank and transparent about it. But my sin had nothing to do with sex and did not have anything to do with why I didn’t want to stay in my situation. Mark didn’t have a clue about what was in my head or in my heart.
Do you think Mark just made that part up?
I think Mark obsesses about sex. I know that many have debated whether or not Mark has an underlying issue related to sex and lust. I think that debate is valid because it is absolutely one of his core focuses. In my opinion, Mark projected his issues onto me when he told me that I had sex demons. I think he has a problem. Even when I called Mark my friend, I always found it odd how he would force sexual topics into sermons and into all of our counseling sessions.
How did your husband respond to the “exorcism”?
He was sold–hook, line and sinker. I think he felt exonerated. It was like his sins had been wiped clean because Mark Driscoll said that his wife was just chock full of demons.
How did you feel afterward?
I just wanted to hightail it out of that room as fast as I could. I was emotionally drained. I felt like I’d experienced psychological torture. I felt like an experiment.
**UPDATE**According to Mars Hill, Mark performed a “Spiritual Warfare Trial” (a definition and instructions for a Spiritual Warfare Trial can be found here, toward the bottom of the page). They also deny using the word “exorcism”.**
A few weeks later, in the spring of 2005, Amy woke up one Saturday morning and told her husband that she wanted a divorce. Her husband delivered the news to Mark in person. Amy says that, upon hearing the news, Mark once again summoned her and her husband to his office.
During that encounter, Amy says that Mark told her that she was no longer welcome at Mars Hill. However, Mark also told her that if she was ever “repentant” and desired to reach out to anyone that she should send a letter. “He assured me that my letter would be ‘accepted’ with a soft heart.”
A few days after that last meeting with Mark, Amy picked up the phone and called her best friend. When her friend answered, she told Amy that she was no longer allowed to have any contact with her and that she needed to hang up the phone.
“She was my closest friend for eight years. I’ve never heard from her since.”
Amy learned later that Mars Hill’s church leadership had instructed members that they were not allowed to have any contact with her.
“According to them, I was in sin. Being shunned shocked me. I wasn’t told that was going to happen. And it was devastating. A lot of lies got told about me. And the gossip was terrible.”
When the silence and loneliness of being shunned became too great to handle, Amy sat down and wrote six letters and stuck them in the mail. “I sent one of them to Grace,” says Amy. And then she waited. And waited. And waited.
She’s still waiting for one of those six women to respond.
Amy says that no one from Mars Hill has ever attempted to reach out to her.
“I guess they still think of me as a bad girl. Or perhaps I’m still being shunned or maybe I’m dead to them. But there’s one difference: I don’t care anymore. I stopped caring several years ago.”
Do you feel as though you’ve recovered from this experience?
Yes. But that took a long time. The abuse I experienced at Mars Hill had very damaging repercussions that lasted many, many years. Being shunned is one of the most difficult things I’ve ever had to go through. But I’m definitely a different, stronger person now because of it. I love my kids. They keep me alive and they adore me. They are such protective and compassionate people. And they are my world.
How is your relationship with your ex-husband? Is he still a member at Mars Hill?
Yes. He’s still a member at Mars Hill. He remarried nine months after our divorce. Our relationship has been extremely bumpy since his remarriage. I can only assume the blow to his manly Mars Hill ego when I left has consumed him and he’s grown bitter roots that are there to this day.
Why did you decide to talk about your experience now?
I read some similar stories from others who came out of Mars Hill and I learned that there was such a thing as spiritual abuse. I decided that enough time has passed that I feel comfortable telling the truth about my own experience. I’m also very concerned for my children. They still have to go to this “church” with their father on the days that he has them. I fear what they are exposed to and, in fact, there have already been negative effects.
What are your thoughts regarding God now? Do you still consider yourself to be a Christian?
I consider myself agnostic, I suppose. I don’t think about it too often. I definitely do not consider myself a Christian/believer. And, in fact, I’m not certain whether I truly ever did. My experience with Jesus was, in my mind, really not even a true one. It was born out of guilt and forcing myself to fit into the Christian mold that, for many years, I tried desperately to fit into. I had no other life outside of the church life and no other options or escape so I felt compelled to cling onto it as long as I could. I had a hard time fitting in that pretty little Mars Hill box and I had a hard time swallowing the pill of Christianity.
My hope and prayer is that Amy will continue to find peace on her journey and that grace will shine brightly on the path ahead.
**Late yesterday, I notified Mars Hill Church’s publicity department that I was running this story and offered them an opportunity to comment along with a few questions. Initially, they were going to issue a statement, but later said they would wait to comment until they read the story. They also directed me to this sermon series by Mark Driscoll.
Anyone else think shades of Rasputin when reading about Driscoll?At least Rasputin was open with his sexual addiction…..
For the love of all that is holy, people…please use proper terms.
Slander – SPOKEN
Libel – WRITTEN
And remember, just because you don’t agree with something that’s been written or said does not make it wrong. Both of these torts have a valid place, but so does free speech. Quit crying words you do not even understand enough to use!
Thank you for publishing this piece, MPT.
I too would’ve been one of those who say “there’s two sides to every story” until a few years ago I married a full-time evangelist/preacher who to my shock and bewilderment became a cruel and abusive husband. It’s a long story but in a nut shell he told lies to others about me and believed his own lies. I too believed for a long while that I was to blame for his outbursts and undermining treatment, but in reality I had become too timid and paralysed with fear to speak or argue. I was too scared for a long time to suggest divorce and only by the grace of God got out of the marriage. This man still tours and preaches today, and people still believe we were both to blame. My experience teaches me that this story is largely truthful and I consider this lady brave to put her head above the parapet.
I’ve heard a lot of this in Driscoll’s preaching on podcasts over the years (back when I was an admirer). I always found it strange and wondered why other national Christians never seemed to address it. Danny Akin of Southeastern Seminary has said Driscoll’s visions disturb him, but he continues to support Driscoll because of the ministry impact he is having on Seattle (his words). I think that is the attitude most pastors and leaders take when the hear criticism of Driscoll. It seems like all this might be coming to a head. Any thoughts on how its going to end?
I had a few thoughts on this, Ben.Okay, I’ve had a lot.
Here’s just one:
http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/2012/01/voices-of-experience.html
Okay, I think this comment thread has died down enough now that I can link a post from my blog and it doesn’t come across as shameless self promotion.
Amy, I knew from the words of Driscoll, himself, back in 2009, that he doesn’t care about the hearts of women. I could tell by his teachings. I could tell he had a “tough sh*t, sucks to be you” attitude when it came to women. And guess where I discerned this attitude? From his Peasant Princess series, of all places.
Amy, If you have time and feel up to it, come on over to my blog and read what I have to say about Driscoll’s obsession with the outward parts of women and his horrible disregard for the inner being of women.
http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/2012/06/driscolls-bitter-waters-spewed-out-by.html
Just read it. Beautiful, Mara.
Thanks Melody,
I think the most hurtful and painful part of watching the MD/MH machine in action is seeing how much God’s heart for women and for the wounded (male and female) is misrepresented.
While Jesus sought out and healed the wounded and brokenhearted while He walked the earth, Mark Driscoll wounds and breaks people and throws them under the bus sacrificing them to his real god… himself and his success.
This is from the blog of a friend who used to go to Mars Hill:
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2012/06/some-context-for-call-for.html
You’ve been through hell Amy, but I’m glad you have gotten free. I wasn’t involved in Driscoll’s church, but a hyper calvinist church that ended up being very abusive. When I finally had the courage to leave that church, we were excommunicated, church disciplined & SHUNNED. People who I thought were close friends tossed me aside. The pastor told them to shun us, avoid us & if we ever tried to contact them for them to rebuke us that we were in “sin”. Our only sin was we had seen enough spiritual abuse & wanted OUT. The shunning was very painful….to this day there are people who have never even asked us WHY we left…our side of the story. Pastor had not just the last word…but every word in between.
The truth will out!
I wish Amy & her kids the BEST. You will be better off getting out of that hell hole.
Take Care!
[…] demons, “sex” demons to be specific. You can read her version of these bizarre events here. After the meeting she was expelled from Mars Hill and her “friends” refused to have […]
I’m the LAST person to ever want to stick up for Pastor Mark. His arrogance has been off-putting from the very first time I heard him.
I have also not read any of the comments but I want to speak briefly to one issue.
From the article these are things that happened over a decade ago, correct? Especially on the topic of marriage, Mark has changed drastically. In his book “Real Marriage” he admits to a horrible time and season in his life where he was rotten to his wife and it reflected in his teaching. So if this is something that he has come clean about then why are we beating him over sin he has already confessed? How does that make this conversation beneficial to anyone?
“Amy” telling her story is fine – if the point is that she wants to get out that she has been hurt, beaten and battered by A church. Instead, I just keep getting the feeling this is more about MPT’s attempt to take down a mega-pastor/celebrity. I can’t prove it, and this could just be me projecting why I would post these type of things on a website.
Stories like Amy’s need to be told – for her healing and as a reminder that we need to be careful about who we follow and listen to. What doesn’t need to happen is to drag a person (someone who we can vilify and project our anger at) through the mud. Especially after they’re already confessed to some of the garbage they’re being accused of.
I’m not really angry at all as I write this (though I know the default internet message board post is read assuming the person is fuming in their seat) but more disappointed that mud slinging is what this website is best known for anymore.
Personally, I would LOVE to read a post about Mark Driscoll’s repentance and heartfelt apology to “Amy”, but that story doesn’t exist…
It’s written in his book. Does he use names? Nope. Because that would likely have shamed her publicly too. He also spoke about it from his church pulpit to tens of thousands of people. They all heard him mention his mistakes and his regret and heartbrokenness over it.
Hate on him if you want (I do for other reasons) but I just don’t believe we can hate on him because he didn’t apologize publicly to one person by name.
Adam,
Would you be so quite as to possibly quote a bit from the book, from the sections to which you refer? I hadn’t previously heard that he apologized to victims of spiritual abuse at Mars Hill. That sounds really kewl. =)
I’d really like to know to what section of the book you are referring. A brief search through it on amazon reveals 4 uses of the word “apologize”, 2 uses of the word “apology”, and 3 uses of the word “sorry”, none of which have anything to do with Driscoll apologizing about anything.
Couldn’t he apologize to her privately?
Exactly! If there had been a sincere private apology, I doubt any of us would be commenting on an article like this.
http://www.youversion.com/bible/matt.23.niv
Read Matthew 23. “Everything they do is done for people to see”.
UGH!
He’s STILL doing the SAME stuff, time and time and time again.
But he *says* that he’s stopped doing it, so we’re supposed to believe him and everything? If he was truly sorry, I’d expect nothing less than for him to step down from the pulpit, at least for a few years while he gets healing and counseling. He’s a spiritual abuser who abused from the pulpit. He doesn’t just get to tell us he changed (and he really loves us) and we’re supposed to accept him at his word.
All I can say is this makes me sad.
I want to see a nice, long video interview of Mark Driscoll by MPT. He needs to answer for so much.
He will answer to God, just like the rest of us. But in the meantime, this article is slander (or gossip… depending on whether or not it is actually true).
Come on Christians, let us stop biting and devouring one another and faithfully mind the business that God gives us.
The point is this sort of stuff hurts people. Staying silent makes it worse. And we can’t ‘faithfully mind the business that God gives us’ and ignore these sorts of things when they happen – we need to talk about them.
I agree that Christians should not slander. At the same time, if a church leader repeatedly causes situations of spiritual abuse in which people get hurt, the greater church body at large has a responsibility to investigate.
When very harmful things are happening, it is sometimes important to bring the dark things into the light so they can be stopped.
When a church leader sins, other leaders in the church have a responsibility to correct them, but the blogosphere is not a good place to do that. This post didn’t accomplish anything because none of us go to Mars Hill. We are all so far removed from the issue.
2 Tim: The Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth
I understand that you all are upset and that you mean well, but I really don’t think God would have us publicly tear one another apart like this. Especially given that we only have half the story. Every story seems right until you hear the other side.
And about ‘being part of the problem if we don’t speak out…’ we become part of the solution by loving, not by maliciously attacking. Love this woman, absolutely. But you can do that without publicly attacking a brother over issues that you were not a witness to.
Also, for the record, Driscoll has repented of a lot of stuff from the phase of his ministry that this woman was a part of. He removed many of his early sermons from the internet.
And could someone clarify… did demons actually respond to Driscoll’s questions? Because it sounds like they did (why else would he ask follow up questions?) If demons did respond, than why are we criticizing a paster for trying to get rid of them? What other line of defense to demonically oppressed people have if pastor don’t help them? I’m not saying his methods were the best, (nor can we say the alternative, because we don’t have the full story) but it sounds like he was legitimately trying to help.
I’m sorry, but this seems like flawed logic.
I intimidate and humiliate someone by pretending they have demons, and then pretend to have a conversation with the demons so no one can object to my intimidation and humiliation tactics? I don’t think that flies.
The issue with blogs like this is that people already have their opinions, and they read blogs to either confirm their opinions or dispute the articles, generally in ungodly ways.
You assume that Mark D. was “pretending”, and that his goal was to intimidate and humiliate. Based on his sermons and his theology the past decade or so, it doesn’t seem at all inconsistent with what he believes doctrinally. You are judging his actions based on YOUR opinion that he doesn’t legitimately believe what he preaches.
Nope, we’re judging his actions by his fruit. This isn’t the first or the last case like this – dozens with similar stories. Don’t assume that we’re just taking down “Mark D.” because of one reason or another. Several people here have mentioned that they agree with much of his doctrine.
As for me, I believe that he believes what he preaches. But what he preaches is control. The whole Bible, the whole thing about our relationship to Jesus and God and sin and sanctification is ALL about control.
So, THAT. That he believes in.
Does anyone here know anyone qualified to recognize and exorcise control demons?
You can e-mail me, gerinteed@gmail.com
I think any rational person would be extremely skeptical of the whole demon situation here, and I think if a pastor wants to advertise himself as someone who’s able to deal with demons, he darn well better have some really good proof. If the ability to cast out demons even exists, it’s just too easy of a thing to fake (and thus way too easy to manipulate people with it.)
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” and all that.
I’m no expert, but I seem to remember even Paul placing a lot less evidence on the “showy” gifts, like demon-casting and tongue-speaking and what-have-you. Actually, all of those took a back seat to love, as I recall.
“all of those took a back seat to love”
AMEN!
He was “legitimately trying to help” by confusing Babylonian and Greek mythological creatures with actual emotional and mental health issues?
This is idiocy at best and a sign of significant pastoral malpractice at worst.
The ability of religion to compel people to act against logic is an incredibly powerful thing. It can be used for good, as when people heroically risk their lives and well-being to help others. Here is an example of it being used for evil, forcing a woman to act against her own self-interest and mental health to conform to an anachronistic, barbaric understanding of gender roles, one that has no place in modern society. No rational argument could have compelled her to do so, but this ignorant hack apparently used the power of the pulpit and his own sacerdotal authority to do just that.
What she describes, and the work of this entire “biblical manhood/womanhood” movement, is the best example I can think of for the work of demons in the world. We don’t need Babylonian myths – fundamentalist seminaries produce all the demons we need.
The truth is not all of us are “far removed”!!! Many of us that are even reading these articles told by actual people that have been spiriually abused and have finally been able to share their truth so to hopefully help others have lost loved ones to Mars Hill. Trust me when I say I have seen it first hand. In 2007 when two elders in the church did dare to address Driscoll, they along with their were tossed out, humilated, and shunned as Amy was…It is real and happening! we do need to pull the curtain back and reveal the truth….this is a closed club….no one is allowed to talk about the church…
We will answer to God for our silence in the face of oppression.
http://leftcheek.blogspot.com/2011/12/fools-idiot-neighbors-and-teachers.html
No, it isn’t slander. It’s the truth. I know you want everyone to play nice and never disagree on anything, but the fact is, Mark is a jerk and a misogynist of the highest proportions. Wake up, get your head out of the sand, and stop ignoring abuse done in the church. As I said before, if you aren’t part of the solution, you’re part of the problem.
Thank you!!!! I couldn’t have said it better!!!!
Well, I think by definition the commenter would not say they want people to never disagree. In fact, the disagreement was stated explicitly. The issue is that it was in disagreement with this post.
You have no idea what the veracity is of this story. It has been confirmed by precisely one person. “Amy.”
I don’t doubt that there are true aspects, but how often do we hear a story from one side, then hear it from the other side, and find that they are completely different stories? It’s all about perspective.
I am certain that Mars Hill does things wrong, as any church does. However church discipline in and of itself is absolutely necessary in the lives of believers and in the life of the church. Church discipline when properly done, is not spiritual “abuse.” There is definitely spiritual abuse that takes place in the world, but all too often we lump abuse and discipline together, when we should not. Jesus himself tells us that discipline is necessary, and he even gives standards for us.
To call Mark a jerk and misogynist is just not helpful. You are basing that opinion on articles, generally written by people who disagree with him, and also on your opinion of what biblical manhood and womanhood is. It also seems questionable that as you charge, Gerin has their (sorry not sure if that is a male or female name!! I think male, but I’m too OCD to act on it, haha), because they read this article, meaning they are paying attention.
Mark’s own words advertise that he is a jerk and a misogynist.
oh puulleease…church discipline in today’s calvinist fundy churches is anyone who disagrees with the pastor’s proclivities, opinions & doctrine, gets booted out of the “true church-tm” …to be slandered from the pulpit & then shunned by the brainwashed sycophants of the holier than thou, pastor. ah ….what a gig these pastors have going for them…they get $$$ hand over fist, TAX FREE, they also have adoring worshipers who worship the pastor’s doctrine, preaching & sermons.
This type of religion is revolting….people who are in this nonsense, ask yourself, who made these “pastors” to be the “mouthpieces for God”??? did THEY claim to be “called”? or some other explanation that they feel they have some right to destroy people’s lives & their characters.
This religion is utter nonsense, controlling, abusive & the pastor’s just love to puff up their egos with their sermons & the flocks who laud them day after day…week after week.
It is sickening.
Seth you are a fucking idiot.
Gotta go with Bob on this one.
Also, the idea of “Church discipline” being in any way necessary on any level is beyond me. To my mind that makes about as much sense as submitting to the will of the local chapter of the 4H Club.
Your contention, that warning people about spiritual abuse from Mark Driscoll by sharing true experiences they have had with Mark Driscoll spiritually abusing them, is flat our wrong.
“vb -sips, -siping, -siped
(intr; often foll by about) to talk casually or maliciously (about other people)”
I am quite sure that this story was not released casually. It’s too personal and painful. The intent to spare others the pain the author went through is in no way malicious, but actually very kind.
“n.
1. Law Oral communication of false statements injurious to a person’s reputation.
2. A false and malicious statement or report about someone.”
Slander is only spoken communication, though it’s easy to see how you could make that mistake. Also, none of these statements are false, and as to the intent of the author, she meant no malice to anyone.
The Greek word for slander (blasfemew) meant: “to speak against someone in such a way as to harm or injure his or her reputation” (Louw and Nida Lexicon)
I get that there are exceptions, but in general, I think the Christian blogosphere slanders a lot, and we shouldn’t always assume that we are the exception. I’m just speaking in general here.
Technically, if this story is false, then it is libel. Slander is for spoken communication; libel is any false statement in writing that injures a person’s reputation.
My beautiful daughter is one of these Mars Hill wives….so it is the business God gave me! “They” have completely isolated her from all her friends and family that are not members of Mars Hill…I have a grandchild I have never seen….This has to stop! I have spoken with two ex Mars Hill elders who both told me this is domestic abuse 101 and to get the phone number of a hotline to my daughter ASAP! Well, I wish I could…I can’t get anywhere near her…
(((Dawn))) I am so sorrry…
Just want you to know that I too, was like your daughter, though it was not MH church, but a very restrictive primitive baptist church/cult with a demented calvinist twist to it.
they convinced me that my family were deceived…if they didn’t cow tow to the pastor’s interpretations of the bible. They convinced us to move our lives for the “true church – tm” away from the only place we had ever known as home. This finally cut us off physically from our extended family & friends from out past. Oh they like to make us forget about our past & the good times & people…Fortunately I had enough sense to still stay in touch w/ my family, as I would not let the pastor completely destroy my familial relationships, but those relationships were strained. and of course harder than ever to maintain being 2 states away from my home state.
I was not allowed to celebrate Christmas…so that could not be enjoyed with my “flesh family” or Easter or Halloween…. my mom knew something was wrong & told me when she met the pastor that his eyes were dead. I wish I would have seen it sooner, but just to let you know that there is HOPE. Try to let her know that you love her, if you can, no matter what. My flesh family was waiting for me with open arms when I finally left that hell hole of a church. There is hope, but still, as bad as the church was I left..I am wondering if MH’s isn’t WAY worse…. 🙁 Good luck!
just wanted to add that my “heathen” Catholic & agnostic family were waiting for me with open & loving arms when I left the church cult battered & bleeding. on the other hand, those who I thought loved me unconditionally, my church brethren, dumped me by the wayside without batting an eye. Pastor told them to shun us (my family & I) & those who I thought knew me were more than willing to treat me as nothing more than a piece of garbage….all for questioning the pastor & leaving pastor’s church. To this day not a one of them have bothered to as us WHY, why did we leave?
IT HURT
I thought that if that is how “true christians-tm” can treat fellow believers who disagreed w/ their doctrine in some areas, that I realized I needed to start asking some serious questions if believers would treat us as anathema. I abhor that type of religion.
I’m terribly sorry about that and my heart goes out to you.
Thank you…and truly there is sooo much more that goes on in that church and its community that it has taken years for the recovering ex-members feel safe enough to finally speak out on their experience. Not only have I spoken to the ex-elders, but I have meet several times with the pastor of one of the Seattle campuses and believe me, it is worse than ever.
Dawn,
I am so sorry! Why aren’t more “big name” pastors standing up to him? Don’t they see the damage he is causing in the body of Christ? It seems they are more concerned with not offending Mark Driscoll, than they are protecting the bride of Christ. I just don’t get it!
And you’re a wonderful example of an ignorant Sheeple.
“He will answer to God, just like the rest of us. But in the meantime, this article is slander (or gossip… depending on whether or not it is actually true).
“Come on Christians, let us stop biting and devouring one another and faithfully mind the business that God gives us.”
Spoken as a true Mark Driscoll groupie.
This is not slander or gossip. It is truth telling and accountability. When more than one person tells the same story, it is not gossip. It is making an accusation against an elder supported by two or more witnesses. Since Driscoll is a public figure, and since his church has allowed him to have all of the power without accountability, the internet becomes the forum to hold him accountable.
More and and more, Driscoll reminds me of Jim Jones.
Kool aide anyone?
Kool-aid doesn’t have an “e”
Most people didn’t actually drink the Kool Aid in submission to Jones. Most were forcibly injected with Vials of the cyanide/kool aid solution.
Haha If we all going to be super picky about things, the Jonestown massacre used Flavor Aid drink mix.
http://jonestown.sdsu.edu/AboutJonestown/JonestownReport/Volume6/tapeyohnk.htm
I recently read A Thousand Lives by Julia Scheeres, which tells the story of Jim Jones and Jonestown. I think there are some really striking similarities between Jones in his California days and Driscoll in the present. You are onto something with the comparison, I think.
This makes my stomach hurt.
May God have mercy on us and may those imprisoned by guilt and wounded by judgment experience God’s acceptance and healing.
amen.
Wow! This is extremely frustrating for me, because I see many of the good qualities of Driscoll and how God has used him. At the same time, I see how he, like many others, appears to be falling into a trap of their own making. Anytime any church gets so tied to a single speaker/preacher, it ends up being a cult of personality…and the preacher begins to be co-opted and seduced by his own image. (Despite the best of intentions)
Also, and I’ve seen this before, too, what any given speaker begins to emphasize on a regular basis is most likely an issue for themselves. So I have serious concerns about what might be going on in Driscoll’s own heart.
I’m sure there is more to the story than simply this side, but it is disturbing none the less.
Not only does the preacher become co-opted and seduced by his own image—but the bigger his ministry gets, and the more public his ministry gets, the more reluctant his friends and followers are to call him out on being wrong. This can skew a person’s healthy view of themselves and allow them to get farther and farther out there on the crazy trail.
This is how I have started to see Mark Driscoll, because like you, I don’t believe that every nanosecond of everything he does is bad. He has done good too. But something has gone haywire and he is too big for anyone to take him aside and tell him to get himself together.
I have heard this argument a lot…..”But he says a lot of good things….” I guess I just don’t get the logic there. So what if he was molesting children, but on Sunday mornings he was preaching unbelievably doctrinally sound sermons? That makes it not so bad? Like the good evens things out?
Again, why aren’t the big name pastors holding him publicly accountable? The only one I’ve heard say anything, is John MacArthur and Phil Johnson. I’m so thankful for that. But where is the rest? It seems like pastors, which are men, don’t really get how horribly degrading humiliating, damaging, and hurtful all of this is to a women. It makes me so upset that they aren’t sticking up for us! It’s so wrong! And by the way, you don’t even have to believe any of this story ( and all of the others) if you don’t want to. Just go back over the past decade and find all the things that have come out of his own mouth! ( Taking the sermons off of his website is a far cry from publicly repenting. If he has done this, would someone please post a link?)
I remember first hearing about MD about 8 years ago. Someone did a review on a book of his that was coming out, and I was so shocked at some of the things he wrote. At the time I was a huge John Piper fan, and I found out that MD was going to be speaking at the Desiring God conference. I was so disturbed by this, that I emailed Desiring God about it. They pretty much dismissed my concerns. From that time on, I have always had red flags about MD. Sorry to say, he just keeps getting worse, and he keeps getting passes. I truly believe we have only seen the tip of the ice burgh. My heart goes out to all the sheep who have been wounded by the one who is supposed to be their shepherd. May God hold all those accountable who chose to look the other way and do NOTHING!!!
Well stated joe.
And again, I truly believe there is another side to the story – I am sure that some of the things are true.
not trying to be combative, but i am honestly curious what parts you think she might be lying about or misrepresenting.
So you’re saying this poor woman is lying? I see. It’s just like I said in my comment below, you don’t want to believe Mark is capable of evil. Even after multiple accounts from various people. At least Joe admitted something is wrong with Mark and his ministry. Shame on you, Steven.
I’m sorry if i painted myself in a bad light. Just to be clear, I do not go to MH, ever been to MH or even live near mars hill (i go to a much much more conservative style church). I just simply agreed with joe’s assessment. I have not taken the time to read all the accounts against mars hill or even for mars hill. I’ve listened to driscoll off and on and found some of his stuff to be fine. As for him as a person or the culture of the church: I’m not that informed on. If all this is true, then yes shame on mars hill and their “standards” because it is downright wrong to treat someone this way (and yes, i could see it happening) and SOMETHING needs to be done. Just throwing my 2 cents in there – there is no shame on me. I can definitely see that there is some weird/cult like/communal things starting to grow.
Okay, thanks for clearing that up, Steven. Sorry if I was too harsh.
No thats cool! I truly agree that if this is going on in the depth (and as i view this a little more, i’m starting to see more concerning things) of what is being reported, then something needs to be done.
As some other have said, I wish a true candid interview could be done.
She’s just a hysterical woman! And tool of Satan! /snark
gawd, i feel horrible just writing that…
Then why write it? Of course her story is going to be ‘her’ side and like anything, we need reason to sift through any possible exaggeration. But the worst thing you can do is ignore this kind of red flag. It seems to match what else I’ve seen of Mark. And there’s an alarming lack of Jesus here. Remember the woman at the well? How did Jesus treat her compared to others?And being a ‘tool’? We all have been used. That’s why we need grace when no one else is wiling to give us mercy.
You must have missed my snark font, Joan. I was being facetious. But you were awfully gracious all the same, so thank you! 😉
If you want a second side, read the first chapter of his book on marriage. Driscoll posted it himself online through his twitter account, so it’s easy enough to find. The man openly admits that he came from a family that abused women, which is why his parents moved to Seattle. He talks about the “whores and prostitues” on his street, as if that was the only crime that he witnessed. He admits that EVERY woman he has ever dated has cheated on him, and when he found out that his wife had cheated on his as well before they were married, he admits that he preached as a misogynist for many years (I think he still is).
These are his words. The man has deep sexually problems and hates women. His masculinity is wrapped up in how women treat him sexually. He comes from a family that hates women. It’s sad, and worse, people follow him.
That’s very sad, and explains a lot. I knew something like this must have happened to him to warp his view of women. I also wonder if he himself was sexually abused as a kid. I wouldn’t be surprised if such a thing came to light eventually, even if he isn’t comfortable opening up about it. Admitting such deep vulnerability would certainly be a huge crack in the wall of fake hyper-masculinity he’s built around himself. Even if it wasn’t that, I’m sure there were things he saw that traumatized him. Telling a child about or having a child witness sexual acts is also a form of abuse. That would explain his fixation on prostitutes.
However, explanation does not equal justification. I was sexually abused by a man when I was a little girl, sexually assaulted on the street by a man in college, and most of my boyfriends have been in some way physically, sexually, or emotionally abusive, and my dad had extreme anger management issues. Despite all this, I have somehow managed to NOT become a raging man-hater, nor do I use religion to justify lashing out at people. If a mere little female like myself can deal with my demons in a rational, mentally well-adjusted manner, then why can’t the mighty manly spiritual giant Mark Driscoll get his act together?
While I can’t stand the guy’s personality, find his beliefs horribly wrong, and I don’t condone the harm he has done to his church members – I really hope he finds healing from this. With the power and influence he has, he could do a lot of good if he wanted to. That being said, he really ought to step down as pastor. It has become alarmingly clear that his mental and emotional problems are driving his ministry, and his deep-seated vendettas are hurting others. Someone that spiritually sick needs to take time off to look after himself, get professional help, and do some soul-searching. Hopefully one day he can atone for the damage he’s done.
Unfortunately, when someone is that spiritually sick, it’s usually impossible for them to see themselves as the problem.
“However, explanation does not equal justification.”
Well said.!
I completely agree with this. There are good things about Mars Hill that I think are legitimate… for example, casting out demons is something not talked about much but I still believe there are cases where it is legitimate. But it seems like his priorities are not in order. A lot of what I’ve been reading shows that Mark Driscoll is encouraging his church to live by the law, and not by grace and faith. So much law-abiding shown in this article, and it’s disturbing. I have no doubt that in a different church, Amy and her husband would have been able to work things out, or at least Amy would not have turned away from Christ.
“for example, casting out demons is something not talked about much but I still believe there are cases where it is legitimate.”
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
(Maybe “atrocity” is a little strong, but Driscoll and his medieval doctrine has put many, many people, like this woman, through hell.)
“. There are good things about Mars Hill that I think are legitimate…”
Typical excuses made by stockholm syndrome sufferers. GOOD GRIEF the most horrible abuser is not ALL BAD. That’s how they deceive people. DOH. Even Hitler made the trains run on time. What a waste and an insult to the victims to say that in seriousness.
Ok my husband tells me it was Mussolini that made the trains run on time…. (this is me rolling my eyes here) but whatever, they’re all despots.
quote of the year! “even hitler/mussolini made the trains run on time.”i’m going totally going to drop that one in conversations!
heh-hem… i mean i’m totally going to drop that one in conversations!extra going. whoops. pardon me.
After having read several of these letters and followed links to others, I have a hard time believing that “there is another side to this story.” I have watched my formerly passive brother get hooked into this patriarchal nonsense and he is becoming a bully to his wife. It is not healthy; it is not “Christian”. My heart goes out to Amy. I hope she has found a community that values her and her “fiestiness”. She sounds like a lovely, articulate person.
Anne – also notice the gender of the two who concur with that statement. My heart goes out to Amy, too. It’s absolutely a crime what was done to her.
with all sarcasm and humility http://t.co/BUda027N
Really love this. 😀
When the first person comes forward you can make an argument that they are making it up, but when the 10+ person comes forward with the same complaints then you know you’ve got a serious problem. Mark has some serious misogyny issues that he needs to deal with. When I read story after story about Mark’s ego I have to start wondering what god he’s worshiping and preaching.
“When the first person comes forward you can make an argument that they are making it up, but when the 10+ person comes forward with the same complaints then you know you’ve got a serious problem. Mark has some serious misogyny issues that he needs to deal with.”
I got that from Mark’s writing/preaching/teaching, long before these stories came out. Why can’t people see it?
“When the first person comes forward you can make an argument that they are making it up, but when the 10+ person comes forward with the same complaints then you know you’ve got a serious problem.” ~Brad S
EXACTLY! Not rocket science!
Every time I read a new story coming out of MHC, I feel such a burden for Grace… Lord Jesus, have mercy on the Driscolls, Mars Hill, and bring healing and restoration for Your glory.
Great story MPT. However, I would venture to say that this is normal in the American church. Living a life of comfort and excess and not really in a “mission” focused life I would say that this is born out of boredom. You can’t just go thru the motions and preach a series on philippians for the 17th time and not start to go crazy after a little while. That’s the sad truth of our mega churches of today. I would hope that this will motivate us to be aware of the hurting around us, and maybe go talk with to them instead of doing the mad dash to Perkins for a delicious Sunday brunch. Can I get an amen?
Maybe normal in some Evangelical circles, but this is far from normal.
“Maybe normal in some Evangelical circles, but this is far from normal.”
Hear hear. Definitely not normal in smaller churches. Although they do still preach a lot of law and moralism.
Just wanting to say that “smaller churches” have their fair share of abuses. I’ve seen it – the “we are thetrue church tm & to leave this church is walking away from God’s kingdom!!” Many times the pastor’s with the “humble” smaller churches have their members by the balls. It’s easier to control a smaller crowd for the narcissistic personality disorder pastor, hates to delegate & has his fingers in everything.
It’s not just the mega churches that deal with pastors crazed w/ power.
I’m not sure it is the size of the church that dictates whether or not this is happening. There are lots of incredibly humble, loving, learning pastors out there. Tons. And there are also lots of pastors who have had their charm mistaken for wisdom. Narcissism and abusive relationships never begin with injury and blatant evil. They always begin with charm. Watch closely for close, two-way relationships, apologies with no strings attached, men and women in leadership requesting to be evaluated by those below them and not only those they report to…then you will find the humble men and women leading churches of all sizes. In the places you don’t find these things, you often find phrases like, “trust us” or “you wouldn’t understand” or “don’t you know me well enough to know…” or “well it’s best to just trust” or “submit to the leadership” or “you must be loyal”…then you have reason to ask many questions, because people are no doubt being harmed in the name of the church. And that’s when it’s everyone’s business.
Excellent comment!
[…] If they’re not twins, they’ve at least got to be possessed by the same sex demon. […]
If people try to defend Driscoll after reading this, they are in complete and utter denial. Defending a church that does this is just as bad as defending clergy who molest children–the claims and evidence are overwhelming, but all the deniers want to see is the “good” in these monsters, saying, “Well, nobody’s perfect. We all have our weaknesses!” That does not excuse evil done in the name of Jesus. Shame on Mark Driscoll. I pray the antics of him and his staff continue to be exposed, and that his misogynist, anti-woman, homophobic ministry will crumble. I do not and will not apologize for saying that.
Melody, you are being extremely brash in that comment. You are simply listening to one side of the story, which I have no doubt has truth in it, and assuming that there is not another side. That would be like me accusing a Priest of molestation and you labeling him a child molester without talking to him about it or doing any other investigation. While I do not know Mark nor am I a member at Mars Hill Church, I have listened to hundreds of hours of Mark’s preaching and teaching. In the early days or Mars Hill, he was proud, often neglecting his wife and his pride affected his teaching as well. He has admitted and repented of that. Mark has personally said that he has made many, many mistakes in his early years of ministry. On the other hand though, I believe that Mark, like anyone else, is capable of such things. I would be interested in hearing his side of the story. While I do not know you or your beliefs, I would warn you that making such harsh assumptions and your continued slander against him is very “un-Christian,” and simply reckless. I whole-heatedly believe that this woman feels extremely wronged and possibly shamed. However, No one knows if what she is saying is 100% true. So let us not be quick to judgement. When we have already condemned Mark, we will never believe anything he has to say on the subject. Both sides of the story need to be heard before anyone should be making any kind of judgement.
I hope you haven’t taken anything I said to be an intentional shot at you. Everything I have said here has been said with love. I wish you all nothing but the best.
–Jared
“In the early days of Mars Hill, he was proud, often neglecting his wife and his pride affected his teaching as well. He has admitted and repented of that. Mark has personally said that he has made many, many mistakes in his early years of ministry.”
You sound so sure, so convinced.
“Mistakes were made…”
So what is the excuse for what has continued to transpire after “the early days” hmmm?
No, I’m not. Your comment proves that I’m right about people like you. You’re in severe denial. I will not take it back, no matter how hard you try to district me. Truth is truth. Deal with it.
That should read “distract,” not “district.”
Can you explain what you mean by “people like you?”
Read my first comment and others about the “we don’t have the whole story” cop-out.
It is clear that those whose views differ from yours and many others here are not welcome. It seems rather… bigoted to me, but I will leave. I wish you all the best.
–Jared
Melody, you go girl. People like Jared pull that same kind of lines and crap all the time. Hear him whimper that his views are “not welcome” and you are “bigoted”. Don’t worry, girl, about that passive-aggressive last-shot-before-I-go-so-you-can’t-actually-expect-me-to-converse junk. You were clear. t/c
Just a point – the Mark defenders on here generally all have penises (or at least have names that generally match having a penis). Not surprising in the least. Mars Hill Church is what happens when a bunch of insecure dicks get together and decide to ‘assert themselves’ in their splendorous dominance.
I LOVE Jared’s parting comment – the typical ignorant bigot response: “YOU’RE the bigot for calling me out and not putting up with my bigotry!” No, Jared. You’re the bigot. We’re just calling you on it and taking away your power to bully. There’s a difference between being a bigot and being someone who refuses to remain silent in the face of suppressive, prejudicial, arrogant, anti-woman men such as yourself and Mark.
And, why, if Jared can’t be a bigot without getting called on it and shamed for it … when then he’s taking his penis and heading back to Mars Hill!
Good riddance.
I LOVE this comment, Brad! You, sir, are awesome. Kudos.
And how exactly do you know what the “truth” is? Jared is right. For some reason you are believing that you know exactly what happened after hearing one person’s account of it. We have not heard from Mark or the church or the church elders or the woman’s ex-husband. You don’t know these people and you weren’t there. To think that you already know the truth after only reading one blog post of one person’s version of the story is quite naive. You would do well to remain calm and pray for everyone involved in this story and wait to see if we are given any more details.
Yes, “remain calm” and not be hysterical after reading one (or is it more like dozens) of hysterical women (and men. Can’t forget the men. After all, they’re trustworthy when women aren’t, right?) hysterically hystericalize about the Awesome Grand Poobah of Faith, The Right Reverend Pastor Mark Driscoll (Blessed Be His Name).
I think there are enough examples on this site to demonstrate that there is a serious problem with Mark Driscoll and this church. If this was just one person saying this, then I would agree with you, but so much is being said about this kind of thing I think it is clear that there is a lot of truth in it. And of course Mark Driscoll and his team would try to explain it away or sugar coat it. That is to be expected. But, from what we are hearing, there is a clear sign that Driscoll is accountable to nobody, and calls the shots about what even those on his team think. If you disagree with him, you’re out. That’s been demonstrated in quite a few of these stories. So why would his team even dream of saying, “We didn’t do right by this woman” if they realise it will mean the end of their time at Mars Hill?
Jared Mark Driscoll is like Herpes. Just when you think it goes away…it pops up. It’s the gift that keep son giving.
Just a shot in the dark, but that kinda sounded like Jared Wilson (Gospel Coalition, A29 guy). I’ve seen him step to MD’s defense before.
That Jared is not me, Jared Wilson. I’m also not an A29 guy.
For some reason all the Mars Hill stories that have come to light recently, and all the people screaming “there are 2 sides to every story,” reminds me of the Jerry Sandusky case. It may all be “he said, he said,” but every story from the 10 victims who came forward is eerily similar. They were all afraid to tell someone because they didn’t think anyone would believe them. All the Mars Hill victims were afraid to leave because of the repercussions of losing friends, life as they knew it, etc. Sandusky was a prominent figure in the community who ran a seemingly wonderful charity for kids with problems. Driscoll is one of the most famous pastors in the country and many people seek his teachings for guidance.
I’m sorry, but when several people are telling several similar stories of spiritual abuse by Driscoll and other “higher-ups” in the church, I don’t need to hear the other side of the story. I’m 100% with Melody.
Fortunately for Sandusky’s victims, what he did was illegal and they can at least get some sort of earthly justice. He’ll probably go to jail and won’t be able to hurt any more kids. Not the case with the spiritually abused from Mars Hill. The only way for them to have a glimmer of a chance to keep this abuse from happening to other people is to come forward. I just pray people listen.
Jennifer. This, this is right on!
do you mind if i quote you on my Facebook page? ( https://www.facebook.com/pages/Left-Cheek-The-Blog/ )
Please do.
will do. thanks
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=409540745764014&id=134550009929757
Well said, Jennifer!
I am so desperately sorry that this one pastor colored your view of Christianity, Amy. Please know the self made and abusive idol Mark Driscoll preaches isn’t God. This is man’s manipulation of scripture to get away with whatever they please and have illegitimate authority to do so. I hope and pray you give God a second chance and find a REAL church.
It’s frightening to consider a man with such a large following has such a dangerous and questionable motives.
This is bordering on “No True Scotsman” type thinking, and all of Driscoll’s misogynistic nonsense descends from books like 1 Timothy and 1 Corinthians. Paul Of Tarsus has to shoulder the blame for this kind of garbage, too.
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/no-true-scotsman
As a student of Paul’s writings, I think assigning blame to Paul–or at least a portion of it–is a bit unfair, if not rash. Ill-treatment and condescending views of women are not advocated from the hand (or even the mind) of Paul; such views only emerge from those who think they understand what Paul is saying (and even thinking), or from those who read Paul with certain presuppositions (i.e he is a misogynist or chauvinist).
In this case, if Driscoll is drawing his theological views about women from texts like 1 Timothy and 1 Corinthians, and if he thinks he knows what Paul is saying and therefore thinks he is justified in teaching what he does and calls it biblical; then he is sadly mistaken, and he is presenting a theology that is hardly Pauline–much less, biblical. But then again, poor theology always comes from poor interpretation, and poor interpretation stems from weak exegesis, and weak exegesis is the natural consequence of a faulty hermeneutic. In other words: you get cap theology when you don’t do your homework.
Thus, I’m afraid Drisoll’s “misogynistic nonsense” (as you rightfully put it) descends not from Paul but from Driscoll himself, his crap theology, his mistaken reading of Paul, and from his faulty preconceptions about the roles of men and women.
“Thus, I’m afraid Drisoll’s “misogynistic nonsense” (as you rightfully put it) descends not from Paul but from Driscoll himself, his crap theology, his mistaken reading of Paul, and from his faulty preconceptions about the roles of men and women.” ~css
AMEN!
I am also heartbroken that she has been driven to agnosticism. Amy, if you are reading this, please listen to the affable old Rod Rosenbladt remind us what true forgiveness is — in The Gospel For Those Broken By The Churchhttp://www.newreformationpress.com/blog/nrp-freebies/the-gospel-for-those-broken-by-the-church/
(there’s a sequel posted at the top, but the original audio and video is down at the bottom)
As another agnostic who used to be an evangelical Christian (and who also experienced an exorcism against my will), let me tell you something: it is deeply offensive for Christians to tell us that we just need to turn back to the Gospel. It’s extraordinarily arrogant and exhibits a clear lack of respect for the choices we have made. I assume you’d prefer it if the nonreligious accepted your religious identity without convincing you to change it; we expect the same courtesy from you.
I completely agree with you.I’ve gotten it the other way (I’m a Christian with athiest & agnostic friends) and it hurts too. We shouldn’t do that to each other.
All we should say is, “I’m so sorry that happened and that you were treated like that. I hope you have peace on your journey.”
The end. 🙂
exactly
So so SO agree with you, Sarah. Agnostic here, also a former evangelical Christian and the idea that someone would be sad about this strikes me as absurd. Don’t be sad for me, I found something that fit better!Something else I struggle with is the way some Christians truly think that I changed my entire belief system because of one person or one church or one event. Like I’m so weak-minded or childish that I would, for instance, get mad at Mark Driscoll and take it out on god. It’s so patronizing.
I owe you an apology too. Again not my intent to imply “weak mindedness” as you put it. I just assumed the case with Driscoll here was so abusive that it left a “I don’t want anything to do with you freaks” kind of impression (which is NOT weak minded, let me clarify that, but a semi-natural response to such cases). A bit presumptuous I my part I’ll give you that it’s just that I’ve heard of people abandoning Christianity or church altogether because of a severe case of abuse.
Again not my intent to accuse, offend, or imply anything about anyone.
Thank you, Candice. I definitely let some of my own backstory into my response so I hope I didn’t come across too harsh. My husband is still a believer and whil ehe respects my beliefs he does sometimes get frustrated and blame my past church experiences and/or my upbringing for turning me away from Christianity. I believe that everything we experience impacts our beliefs in some way but to try and find something to “blame” for me de-converting just says, probably unintentionally, that I didn’t come to my beliefs honestly.Anyway, thanks for explaining. 🙂
I am sorry if my comment offended you, please know it was not my intention to imply anything other than Driscoll is a poor representation of a Christian and in no way meant to be critical of Amy or anyone of the same affiliation. My intention was merely to point out that not all Christians/churches behave this way if this encounter with Driscoll has given her a poor first impression of Christians.
Honestly I respect your decision I am just hurt over the bad reputation of Christians and churches Driscoll seems to be perpetuating and only meant to be critical of him and no one else.
Paula,
Why do you feel heartbroken that Amy has moved into agnosticism?
I can’t speak for Paula, but personally, I think that my life overall has been bettered by being associated with this Jesus person, so it makes me kinda sad to hear that someone has rejected Christianity because a bunch of Christians were behaving like douchebags.
It’s kind of a Catch-22; to an agnostic, it seems disrespectful that someone would be “sad” about your belief. As a Christian, it seems disrespectful to be told that you shouldn’t have strong feelings about people’s relationships to the Christ you believe in.
I think we have to accept that both sides are going to have strong feelings about it. Religious beliefs cut to the heart of who we are.
That’s great for you. Seriously. But mine wasn’t. So leave it alone.
Hey mpt have you ever asked Mark for a sitdown interview?
I will bring the camera.
Story. After story. After story. After story.The preponderance of evidence is growing and increasingly tilting toward what we already knew:
Mars Hill is a cult.
Mark Driscoll is a cult leader who claims supernatural powers of exorcism, psychic visions, and extrasensory perception.
Mars Hill attempts to shame any who leave.
Mark Driscoll has gradually consolidated power and diminished accountability to himself and his select cronies.
In my professional assessment, we are dealing with a cult, and one that is planting satellites around the U.S.
Exactly. In contrast to what Southern Baptists will tell you, unorthodox beliefs do not necessarily make a cult. Mind control, deception, manipulation–all of which consume Mars Hill Seattle–are defining signs of a cult. And Mark’s church fits this deception to a tee.
I have been following Mars Hill for many years, and these stories confirm what I have suspected in reading Mark Driscoll’s writings. All eight of Robert Lifton’s criteria for thought reform groups have been satisfied in my mind. And stories like this one confirm what I have believed to be true.
Robert, as a filmmaker and someone who has studied the cult problem for the past ten years, I wholeheartedly agree with your statement.
Yes, when I first learned of the other “campuses” going up in other states, my body physically shuddered. Of course, that was probably just a demon inside of me.
Probably, Tana. We should have that looked at.
I’m gonna find my bullhorn and I’ll be right over. THEPOWEROFCHRISTCOMPELSYOUUNCLEANWOMAN!
I’ll bring the popcorn.
Could you pick me up some Dr. Pepper on your way? Thanks.
I wholeheartedly agree, and I am shocked and dismayed that the majority of orthodox Christians don’t see it and keep promoting this guy. They are all fine with criticizing Harold Camping and others like him, but very few say one word about Driscoll other than “well he doesn’t do everything the way I’d do it…”
In my comment above, I said that he was reminding me more and more of Jim Jones (in studying about the Jonestown tragedy). I’m glad someone else brought this up too. If you read or see testimonies from survivors of Jone’s church, there are startling similarities. That said, I’m not saying he’s poisoning Kool-aid, but it’s obvious that he’s charismatic, influential, and controlling….most of all people are being hurt. There are numbers of people claiming to be scarred victims from many instances of abuse from this church.
“In my professional assessment, we are dealing with a cult, and one that is planting satellites around the U.S.”
Amen. And thank you Al Mohler for having the Southern Baptist convention pay for Acts 29 church plants and little Driscoll clones spreading out all over. Of course they are trying to distance themselves from him now and made Chandler Acts 29 Prez. But Chandler was on the board for several years and never listened to Driscoll sermons?. Piper even took down his “I loooooove Mark Driscoll’s theology” video.
The other celeb Christian leaders promoted him yet Driscoll’s own mouth has been a dead giveaway for years he is abusive, a bully and totally obessesed with sex. Just how much proof do people need the guy has had a serious problem?
I don’t really have a coherent response. With Andrew’s story, I wanted to rage and scream and tear down the walls. Now, with story after story after story – each worse than the last – I just don’t have the spoons for it anymore. There is something deeply, terribly wrong with Mark Driscoll’s church. This is clearly a cult of personality, a man who thinks he has so much power that he can get away with anything.
And his sycophants will continue to march to the beat of his drum, because that’s what sycophants do. And those of us who see and call spiritual abuse for what it is will be called “mean-spirited,” “unChristian,” and all sorts of names, in addition to having our own commitments questioned. And the cycle will repeat, again, and again.
At this point, I’ve given up trying to convince. All I can do is point to the stories, to the memories, to the real-life consequences of this kind of teaching and this kind of theology, and hope that people listen. And I pray that something big will happen to stop this cycle, that people will begin to recognize the harm that this ministry is doing far outweighs any good that could come from it.
I’m tired. I’m tired of Driscoll. I’m tired of Mars Hill. I’m tired of trying to get good people to understand that if someone is an abuser – whether it be spiritual, verbal, emotional, sexual, or physical – then they are not the ones who deserve our grace, at least not at first. Our grace and love need to cover the victims of his abuse, and then, only then, when we can be assured that they know they are loved, that they are safe, that there are people out here in the real world who love them just as they are. And then, only then, do we turn our gaze to the abuser – cautiously, guardedly, keeping his victim always in the forefront – and extend grace.
Because the abuser deserves grace, most assuredly, as we all do. But we cannot and should not offer this grace if it enables the abuser to continue his abuse. We cannot and should not extend grace to an abuser if the abused are not yet on the way to healing. We cannot and should not extend grace in a manner that keeps the abuser in a position of power over the abused, that defends the abuser’s actions in any sense – because he might be a “good man,” because he’s done other stuff that’s good. Those good things he may have done do not erase the evil he commits, and as long as he is in a position to abuse in the community, we must withhold grace, until his victims are free.
Huh. I guess I did have something to say after all.
You can’t convince. All you can do is keep saying “this is not right’, so that the victims of this abuse hear more than “you’re sinful and evil and its all your fault”.
Exactly. All we can do is keep telling our stories.
There’s not a “like” button big enough.
Seriously. Dianna nailed it.
That’s brilliant, Dianna.
[…] Mathew Paul Turner has the story, entitled,”Exorcism at Mars Hill: One Woman’s Story“. […]
This just hurts my heart and I just pray for Amy and anyone else who has had a similar experience at Mars Hill or any other church for that matter. It is difficult to be a Christian in 2012 when you hear stories like this. I know that in my own family, there is a lot of distrust and hurt from the Church because of situations like this where there is abuse of power by the leadership. I can’t even imagine what it would be like to all of a sudden be shunned by those you trusted for years. It isn’t very Jesus-like to me. I can’t imagine that he would just shun someone like that. How do we show Jesus to the world if we are told not to have any type of relationship with those who don’t know Him or walk away from Him? Doesn’t seem very Biblical to me. And, I get that the Bible states that the woman is supposed to submit to her husband but it also says that the husband should submit to the wife, too. I won’t go into all of it but I’m certainly interested to find out if or when Mars Hill will respond to this. I’d like to know which of Mark’s books they will reference in it.
[…] via EXORCISM AT MARS HILL: ONE WOMAN’S STORY OF SEX, DEMONS, AND MARK DRISCOLL : ✪ MATTHEW PAUL TURN…. […]
My thoughts: I do believe as others have stated that Mark Driscoll himself struggles with something of the sort as well. When you preach on something all of the time, ti becomes your life message and your life message is formed by life experiences. I’m not sure what it is, but it’s something.. I don’t agree with a lot of Mark’s teaching and it makes me sick to see how this lady was treated. NEVERTHELESS, there are always two sides to EVERY story. After reading this, I’m almost POSITIVE that some of this is severely misinterpreted and some are lies. It’s easy to make ourselves look like the victim and someone else look like the bad guy. She never discussed ANY wrong that she’d done throughout all of this. All of the blame was simply placed on the church, her husband, ect..
As far as a cult goes.. Seriously? Just because someone has bad theology on a particular matter does NOT make them a cult leader whatsoever. I have a few friends who LITERALLY grew up in cults until they were 20+ and none of their descriptions fit Mars Hill. Christians will always slaughter what they don’t understand and though I find it sickening that this ladies experience obviously wasn’t great, I have a lot of trouble believing some parts of the story. Either way, I pray that they both settle the matter in their hearts with God and stop slapping each other on the wrist like children.
I was in a cult for 12 years, and Mars Hill and particularly Mark Driscoll remind me of it very, very much. I think that you will find many others who have experience with Bible based cults who see red flags in the stories coming out of Mars Hill, and in the behavior of Driscoll.
And the other side will tell you that Amy is a liar and can’t be trusted based solely on the fact that she is a woman. That’s what Mark teaches: that women are less than human and should submit unquestioningly to church leaders. You’re a man, I see, so it’s easy for you to dismiss her story in hopes that it isn’t true. That’s male privilege for you. Well, I know it’s true, based on other claims of abuse and the teachings of this cult.
I take back the part about being a man, since I see your name is Key and not Ken, and I can’t see your picture to confirm. Nonetheless, I stand by the rest of my comment. That you would accuse an oppressed woman of slapping like children in order to play fair is very telling. You don’t want Mark Driscoll to be an evil, homophobic misogynist, so you use the “two sides to every story” cop-out. Of course there’s two sides, but in this case, the Mars Hill side does not have a dog in this fight. You could say the same thing of other cults like Jonesboro and the Family, because you want to see the good in them.
Not my point whatsoever. What I’m saying is that whenever we don’t understand something we run from it and claim it to not be biblical when it is. For example people are talking about how casting out demons and spiritual oppression isn’t real when in actuality it is, it’s biblical, and was apart of the mission of Jesus to set those bound up free. I grew up southern baptist and I didn’t think it was biblical either until I searched it out my own self and saw those oppressed with my own eyes.
I’m not saying that Pastor Mark doesn’t have his struggles, it’s obvious he does, as we all.. But to just tear him to shreds, call him a cult leader, and discredit all the right he’s done and spoken isn’t okay either. And for the record I grew up abused in EVERY way possible so I can relate to what she’s going through in a lot of ways. As far as the whole “women are less than men,” thing.. Wrong. Jesus honored the women in His life and commands men to love their wives as Christ loves the church in Ephesians. I don’t believe women are less than men, but I do believe that women are called to submit to the leadership of their husbands because it’s biblical principal.
And believe it or not there are two sides to every story.. lol. I could also be true that she made this up out of anger and lied about it, but we don’t believe that, right? Because just like me you’re wanting to see the best in her.. right? Same thing, different view. People believe what they choose to believe. I don’t have any kind of affiliation with Mars Hill Church, I’ve only listened to a couple of sermons by Mark, and I disagree with some of his teaching.. but I wouldn’t go so far to say that just because I disagree with his teaching and sometimes his actions, that he’s a cult leader.
I rest my case. You want Pastor Mark to be just another imperfect human being, so you ignore the obvious. You are misguided and in gross denial of the monster he is.
Key, I’ll ignore the claims about demons, because I realize those are faith based and by nature aren’t supported by outside evidence, but you’re being inconsistent even with your own biblical based rational. Driscoll’s in the wrong even if you go by the Bible, by overtly chastising the wife, but accepting the husband back into the fold, even though he remarried after a divorce, which Jesus is explicitly against (Luke 16:18).
This is blatantly misogynistic, and you’re being an apologist for nonsense.
PLEASE tell me neither of you have NEVER done anything contradictory to the Word? Only difference between you and him is that what he’s done has been spoken about publicly and what you’ve done hasn’t, myself included. It’s easy to call out others on their wrong and refuse to acknowledge our own. Show others the grace and mercy you want God to show you. Period. This conversation is going nowhere.. But I really do appreciate and respect your insight and reading your opinions on it. Honestly.. Have a great day! 🙂
Key, I hear where you’re coming from, and we should certainly be ready to extend grace and the benefit of the doubt, but Driscoll is a high-profile, public figure. He is leading tens (hundreds?) of thousands of young men. When I first heard some of these stories, I thought like you. They’re probably blown out of proportion by Driscoll-haters. Driscoll is (well, was) one of my heroes. But more and more stories popped up, and the two pastors who Mark fired (Paul Petry and Bent Meyer) spoke up. Their accounts are full of evidence including emails (Petry’s a lawyer). It’s all pretty damning. Check out http://www.joyfulexiles.com.
Key it’s less about the fact that none of us have NEVER done anything contradictory to the Word. However, a man or woman who is given the position of Pastor isn’t supposed to wield his “power” over the congregation like Driscoll does. In fact, he is supposed to guide them, counsel them and serve them. Not the other way around. Please view the website that Bobby mentions. I spent time this afternoon going through almost all of the documents and they speak for themselves. I do not like to speak negatively against anyone but the writing is on the wall about Driscoll.
There’s a difference between mistakes and abuse.
I am sorry, but showing grace and mercy doesn’t mean letting people get away with abuse. Just because I show him grace and mercy doesn’t mean I don’t want him to face the consequences of his actions. Everyone makes mistakes, EVERYONE, but there are consequences that must be paid when mistakes are made. The rub is, is that Marks behavior is much more than “a mistake”, a mistake implies an accident, something that you learn not to repeat…yet MD repeats the behavior, over and over, and over. How many times must he offend before people see that his behavior is habitual, and abusive, and put a stop to it? I think he needs help, and I hope and pray he gets it, but turning a blind eye to his behavior, and not calling it out publicly, does not get him that help, and is NOT showing grace and mercy, it is giving him permission to continue spiritually abusing people.
Yeah. My favorite was when Mark Driscoll told the women in his church how they owe their husbands oral and anal when it’s that time of the month. Real man of god there.
Thank YOU for standing up for abused women everywhere.
Key says, “And believe it or not there are two sides to every story.”
And we keep hearing Mark Driscoll’s tender and caring side of the story: http://www.fightingforthefaith.com/2012/06/mark-driscoll-brags-about-pile-of-bodies-behind-mars-hills-bus.html
So instead of waiting to see what Driscoll’s/MHC’s response will be, you declare that they will call Amy a liar. Yeah, you’re not biased at all. Very fair evaluation.
Ok, so you disagree with the assessment that Mars Hill is a cult because your friends have experiences in cults that differ from what Mars Hill does to ex-members? What types of cults were they? Where they Bible-based like those mentioned by KatR? I think you may need to discuss this with Robert Cargill (see above comment by him). From what I’ve read of Mars Hill and my little knowledge of cults, this sounds borderline cult-like behavior.
I’m almost POSITIVE that some of this is severely misinterpreted and some are lies.
PROVE IT.
Meanwhile, there is a lot more evidence pointing to the idea that Amy is right and that you’re an apologist for abuse, which — as someone who has survived verbal abuse — I find extremely triggering and blood-boiling.
How would you feel if this were YOU in Amy’s shoes?
Screw this “two sides” BS.
Those who are claiming MH is a cult are not claiming that based on someone having “bad theology on a particular matter.” The comments are stating that MH’s method of dealing with people employs the techniques of thought reform and shaming that are common to cults. That does not necessarily have to do with where his theology is wrong. I think you’re too quick to dismiss their observations out of hand.
Key – I also have trouble believing some parts of this story because Matthew didn’t follow-up and ask probing questions, such as,
1) You state that the man you were introduced to and married played in a Christian band. What church did he attend? If he didn’t attend church, why not? Did you receive any premarital counseling? Who performed the marriage ceremony?
2) You state that you did see any red flags regarding Mars Hill. Please explain what you mean by a “red flag?”
3) You state that you and your husband (seven years older than you) were “young and clueless.” In 1996 you state that you were 20 years old. Mark Driscoll was born in October 1970, making him 26 years old when you were 20 and about a year younger than your husband. Why did believe your husband was “young and clueless”, but Mark Driscoll was not “young and clueless?”
4) Who is this acquaintance that introduced you to your now ex-husband and what relationship did this acquaintance have with Mnars Hill?
I was kind of wondering about those things as well–especially about the marriage couseling bit (if any). I’m no expert, but I kind of wonder what pastor would agree to marry a couple who had only known each other for 3 months, especially when one half of the couple is at such a clear disadvantage (significantly younger, new in town with no family around, etc.)
Joe,
The story states that Amy did not notice any “red flags.”
Just thought I’d clarify that.
I think that your questions have absolutely no correlation to the veracity of the story. 1. Where and by whom they were married happened before they went to mars hill. It says pretty clearly that they began at mars hill two months after they were married. Their own spiritual state prior to going to Mars Hill is insignificant to the point of the story; therefore, it was better not to include it.
2. A “red flag” is something (words said, doctrines, actions, etc.) that should deter a reasonable person from taking part in something, such as a church. You know this.
3. Clearly she was referring to the naive and rash decision she and her husband made in getting married.
4. Once again, this has no correlation to the truthfulness of the account.
You’re grasping at straws. These aren’t “probing questions,” these are just silly. Also, why would Matthew ask probing questions, he’s not Bill O’Reilly…
Usually it is sex that brings down a leader like this. Pastor Driscoll appears to be on another track.
It isn’t the mention of demons and possession in and of itself that bothers me. Such things exist. I know the official exorcist for the Episcopal Diocese of Olympia (includes Seattle), and the holder of this office does not take it lightly. He also doesn’t talk about it very much. More like, he only mentions it rarely and in passing and never in a group of people. I only found out about it accidently.
It is a spiritual gift to discern such things as demonic possession and to act on it. This makes blaming demons for our own weaknesses is tantamont to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. In the 1960s, we laughed at Flip Wilson’s jokes on the subject. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kaiLcwHXB4 We can only pray about this, asking for forgivess for the Church, and be open to help those abused this way.
I had a friend in an abusive marriage. Because my friend’s husband was a Christian and involved in ministry there were many people who excused the man’s hitting of his wife, many who would say, “but he’s a good man” and many who would say that he “deserved grace” or that there had to be “two sides to every story.”
In cases of abuse, (and we have seen and heard MANY cases of abuse where Mars Hill is concerned) the story of abuse does not require excuses or explanations. Where abuse is concerned relationship is broken, normal operations of repair do not come into play. This is not an argument someone had with another person, this is argument and then injury. Let’s not fool ourselves into thinking that because Mark Driscoll is in ministry or because he runs a large church that his “good” outweighs the injury he does. It does not.
It is never OK for a person to strike their spouse and it is never OK for those in ministry to abuse their members.
This. I am so, so sick of people saying “there’s two sides to every story” because they don’t want the victim’s story to be true. They want to think Mark Driscoll and his staff to be good people, just trying to follow Jesus the best they can. Well, I don’t buy that for a second. Enough of these abuse claims have surfaced, and I know enough about Mark based on his sermons and Facebook posts, that he and the Mars Hill leaders are a dangerous bunch who are brainwashing their followers.
Man – is there EVER a bright spot in the world of what I call the “cognizant believer”?maybe I should back up –
I refer to MPT and many of the commenters here as cognizant believers, people who follow an overriding faith, but are still mentally awake.
So how do you continue – from an outside point of view it all seems so……negative.
Because the truth is negative. You keep your head in the sand if you want. We, on the other hand, will continue to expose Mark for what he is: a sexually insecure cult leader and abuser.
I did not know about my head being in the sand – I think I am being unclear. – first, I am not a believer
– second, I am not talking about this sites treatment of Driscoll
I am wondering how open minded christians continue with a faith that seems not just imperfect (people are imperfect) but rife with anger, distortion and shame – has it always been like this?
I take back what I said about your head in the sand. But that distortion and shame is what we are exposing. I’ve commented multiple times that Mark is a homophobic, misogynistic, controlling psychopath. Being open-minded does NOT mean we tolerate lies and abuse in the name of Jesus. Jesus called the Pharisees and religious leaders of his day snakes and hypocrites to their faces. He exposed them for what they were. And I will not back down from calling their modern-day counterparts what they are, in order to end misogyny and manipulation in the church.
It’s not all negative. I promise.
You’re right about that, thank God. The truth is ugly in this situation, but thankfully it’s not always so.
I can’t speak for anyone, but for me, I have read the Bible for myself. When I see terrible things happening in churches, I also see that Jesus seems to speak against those very things. That’s how I keep going; because I know I’m following someone who is as saddened by rotten church behavior as I am.
I’m failing to see how Driscoll is any worse than whoever wrote 1 Timothy. Besides being a misogynist, the writer of Timothy also endorses slavery and tells them to submit to their Christian masters. Whoever wrote that book (because it wasn’t Paul, though Paul endorses women being silent in church and asking their husband if they need explanations in 1 Corinthians) has contributed to a lot of strife in the history of the human race.
This is why, though I respect most Christians, moderate Christianity is intellectually dishonest. The Bible explicitly endorses these stupid ideas, and it gives insecure cult leaders like Driscoll a divine excuse for being a jackass.
The part you’re missing is that progressive Christians, like me and Matt, don’t believe those passages apply today. They were written to a specific group of people and in a culture entirely different from ours today. Also, many of those passages have been mistranslated, since it’s difficult to understand the original Greek in context, so conservative translators take the more sexist approach. Progressive Jews, such as Reform and Reconstructionist, take the same approach to the Torah. It’s not dishonest; it’s just a well-rounded understanding of literary, historical, and cultural context.
Just to clarify, when referring to progressive Jews, I mean they take the same approach to the Bible as progressive Christians do, in regards to the context in regards to whom and when it was written.
Alright then, but if that’s going to be the case, then the Bible’s canon needs to be adjusted. Every biblical scholar KNOWS FOR A FACT that Paul didn’t write 1 Timothy (it’s writing style is completely different, and it was written after Paul died, so that would also make it hard for him to write it), and if it’s irrelevant to our World today, then why keep it?
Half of the epistles are forgeries, and they contain some of the most morally repugnant stuff in the New Testament. They paint Paul as completely bipolar, swinging wildly from “ALL ARE EQUAL IN CHRIST JESUS” to “STAY QUIET IN CHURCH, YOU SINFUL, WORLDLY WOMAN!” And they’ve given insecure beta males like Driscoll license to simultaneously preach love and oppression, two things that by their own nature can’t co-exist.
Tcc, where are you getting this information? The Bible does not preach slavery. http://www.thevillagechurch.net/sermon/does-the-bible-condone-slavery/ <–This article might be of use.
Also, why do you say that Paul did not write 1 and 2 Timothy? Might I suggest that you read the very first line?
–Jared
1 Timothy 6:1-5 says that Christians can keep slaves, and anyone who advocates a different doctrine is conceited and “has a morbid interest in controversial questions”. The Old Testament is explicit in how to treat your slaves (“don’t hit them so hard they die!”, Exodus 21:20-21)
I realize they say they’re written by Paul. That’s why they’re forgeries–the textual style is completely different, and they’ve been dated to be written after Paul was executed. Ask any religious histories professor about this and they’ll tell you the same.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Pauline_epistles
There is a big difference between practical advice for the day versus a hope for the future.
We have a possible analogy with something a bit more modern. Do you suggest that we should not acknowledge or read the Declaration of Independence or the current US Constitution because of slavery among the framers of the Republic? “All men are created equal” does not compare well with a slave only counting 3/5 a person in the census.
There are valid approaches to Scripture that acknowledge the world they lived in versus the hope for the future in Christ. There are approaches that take the demands on the husband by Paul to be a more serious burden than what was put on the wife. Women being silent in a gender-segregated assembly is practical–and must be compared with how he treated a certain seller of purple.
An all-or-nothing approach the Scripture is dangerous.
Bob, you’re dealing with a different moral standard when you compare The Bible (which is called holy and is supposed to be dictated by loving, perfect the creator of the Universe) and the Governmental documents “made by sinful man” (to borrow Christian standards). One document is, by the very idea of being dictated by an all perfect, all loving being, going to be held to a much higher standard–and to me, The Bible utterly fails in this area. It’s a very human book, and the fact that even it’s decent sections have been twisted to support stupid ideologies like Driscoll’s proves that it’s use as a moral guide is completely subjective. You folks seem to be decent people, so you use your own moral intuition to create a Biblical canon that supports your own ideas about love and grace.
Martin Luther himself wanted to throw out Revelation (he would have saved us a lot of trouble there) and James because he thought they utterly contradicted faith based, grace salvation. His own ideals shaped The Bible for him.
Even with Divine inspiration, Scripture was written by humans.
It is the Holy Spirit that leads us into all truth and Truth, not the Bible. However, when we find Truth, you will see it agrees with the general arc of where Scripture points.
Anyone paying attention carefully realizes that Paul and James agree with regards to work. Faith without works is dead, say Paul. How is that different from James?
And telling husbands to give to their wives how Christ gave to the Church places a very large responsiblity on men. Of course, you have to realize Jesus wasn’t out to score points to win an argument. Jesus came to love.
Agreed, my friend. I’m exhausted by the many attempts to ‘reconcile’ passages in the Bible. Even my own pastors (when I attended church) admitted that slavery in Scripture wasn’t ‘indentured’ as they had prettied it up to be, and was actual slavery – but, ‘at least they were treated better than slaves owned by non-godly nations!’
And, honestly, there is literally no ‘proof’ that the Bible was written by ‘God’. It’s all trusting certain people’s opinions, ignoring the history of how it came together, and the passages that seem a bit strange if they were penned by a benevolent god.
Though, I suppose if you’re reformed, it was all for God’s glory, so you don’t have a problem with saying he inspired slavery. Cool story, bro.
Anyways, thanks tcc.
You are absolutely right. So many people that accept the Bible without question have no idea of its canonization and the fact that many parts of it were edited centuries after the manuscripts were found. So, many books are indeed falsely attributed to certain people. I think the real issue is that they’re afraid of change and that their whole foundation will fall apart if they question anything.
“Every biblical scholar KNOWS FOR A FACT that Paul didn’t write 1 Timothy (it’s writing style is completely different, and it was written after Paul died, so that would also make it hard for him to write it)…”
Biblical scholarship is my line of work. I can honestly say that this is an entirely false statement.
Your understanding of the Epistles is woefully inadequate (and I’m not even a Complementarian or fan of Driscoll by any means). I would recommend spending time with some quality NT scholars like N.T. Wright, Gordon Fee, Ben Witherington, Craig Keener and Richard Bauckham before making such confident misinformed claims.
And for what it’s worth, I don’t know what’s more disturbing: Driscoll’s actions or the uncritical acceptance with of the perspective of an ex-church member who just might possibly be less than totally objective in criticizing the church she gave years of her life to and then was shunned by (whether undeserved or not). She might be 100% right in everything she said…but given the nature of human relationships, especially ones shattered by divorce, it seems beyond naive to accept everything Amy says at face value without hearing her husband’s (or Driscoll’s) side of the story first. Confirmation bias can be a powerful force, and no one on here is immune to it (no matter how vehemently they deny the possibility).
“Entirely false”? You sure? Bart Ehrman certainly doesn’t think Paul wrote it. It’s authorship is, at the very least, a subject of debate that leans to it not being written by Paul. Right now, only 7 of 13 epistles are considered to be authentic.
NT Wright is going to lean to a perspective on scripture that endorses Orthodox Christian beliefs, and I’m not interested in that. Dude’s a theologian first, historian second.
There is nothing flawed in JM Smith’s assessment, for it is true that not every biblical scholar rejects Pauline authorship of the Pastoral Epistles; there are some who do see Paul as the author. Thus, the categorical claim, “Every biblical scholar knows for a fact [blah, blah, blah]” is indeed false.
Moreover, the “7 out of 13” business is not ironclad or categorically held throughout scholarship. There are a number of (reputable) scholars who include more than 7 and a decent handful who see all 13 as Pauline. More importantly, the criteria used for de-authenticating a Pauline letter are not only rather antiquated (i.e. they come from the skepticism of FC Baur) but also considerably flawed.
Also, while much (though certainly not all) of his work on text-criticism is acceptable, Bart Ehrman is hardly the representative for biblical scholarship. He overplays his hand and over-sensationalizes the (supposed) discrepancies in textual transmission and tradition. Not only that, but his arguments are nothing new or novel; much of what he claims is a throw-back to the days of Reimarus and von Harnack.
Finally, your critique of NT Wright is a bit off: he was initially trained in the classics and Roman history before he began theological studies. And from what I know of Wright–both from his books and personal conversations–he does not attempt to prioritize one discipline over the other; instead he sees them as in necessary dialogue with each other.
You’re right about me saying all of them knew that as a fact. My mistake on that, because there’s always debates. I just don’t think the argument that they’re all written by Paul is convincing at all.
These scholars think Paul wrote, Hebrews, really? The one that’s anonymous? Like I said about NT Wright, whoever is making the argument that they were all written by Paul sounds like they’re coming to the table with theological bias already.
Plenty of people make the argument that the gospels were written by the authors whose names are on them now, but they weren’t. The committees behind Bibles like the NASB and NIV are made up of very conservative evangelicals, and their views on the Bible aren’t held by people who care more about history than theology. For example; the whole idea that the gospels were written by eye-witnesses is bullshit, but the NASB insists they were in it’s introductions.
No worries; I’m sure the comment was made in the heat of the moment. We could continue this conversation elsewhere, but I’m curious as to why you think the arguments for Pauline authorship are not at all convincing. Is there something about the arguments themselves, or is it merely that the consensus view in scholarship holds a rather truncated position, or that such a position is popular?
Second, I’m not really sure how (or even why) Hebrews got thrown into this. I certainly didn’t mention it. I would have said 14 Pauline letters if I thought it should be included, but I don’t. I personally do not know of anyone who still argues for Pauline authorship of Hebrews. (I’m willing to be corrected on that point–i.e. if you know of anyone, I’d be curious to hear who it is). If we were talking 100+ years ago, then there might be a point of discussion; but certainly not now.
Third, I’m not positive that your comment about translation committees is entirely accurate. Outside of a small few, I don’t think the members of the committees would classify themselves as “very conservative”–let alone accept such a label. Moreover, the conservative-liberal spectrum is not a fair (or even reliable) gauge, not least because deciding where people fit on that spectrum is highly subjective. Not only that, but once a person or group has been (subjectively) assigned to a position on that spectrum, it (unfairly) predisposes how others see them.
Finally, I’m a little concerned about the implicit disjunction in what you’re arguing. On the one hand you criticize those who (presumably) come to the table with their minds already made up, which then colors their views and/or decisions about other matters; and yet you stand confident in your preconceived notions about such people and allow such notions to determine how you respond to them. Why is it okay for you and not “them”?
Similarly, on the one hand you say there are those who make arguments for the Gospels being written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John and also argue that these four were eye-witnesses; yet on the other hand, you say the Gospels were not written by those for and the eye-witness stuff is bullshit. In both cases, we are dealing with competing arguments.
The trouble is that the position you advocate is simply representative of the other side of the debate (one that is far from being settled), and simply proclaiming the theories of that side does not de facto undermine the other. Moreover, and this goes back to something I said earlier, those making arguments against authorship (and even eye-witness testimony) have such arguments as their presuppositions, which necessarily color how they see things. So why is it that arguments against (colored by presuppositions) are acceptable, yet arguments for (colored by presupposition) are rejected?
While this is an interesting discussion, how is it relevant here with this blog post? To question whether a book belongs in the canon over questioned authorship misses the point. This discussion confuses the role of truth versus fact. If one of the requirements is complete factual accuracy, then there are problems with the three synoptic Gospels–without even figuring out what to do with John. I think the early Church knew about these factual issues, and did not consider them important. Thy word is truth.
Hence my suggestion to take this dialogue elsewhere. 🙂 Your comment about truth versus fact reminded me of this: “The New Testament may not be ‘inerrant’ according to the standards of modern historical science, but it is not erroneous. The cup may have flaws, but it holds the pure water of life.” (L.S. Potwin, 1898: 36).
J-M,
I’m sure you’ve heard by now that there are scores of independent collaborating evidence, dozens of people coming out of the woodwork to verify that Driscoll and his teams have been spiritually (to say the least) abusive, controlling, misogynistic, and focused WAAAAY to much on sexual issues. Add those up with his own facebook comments, sermons, off-the-cuff remarks, books, etc, and we are not dealing with the vendetta of just one woman or even a few. The only part I haven’t heard before from various sources is the exorcism. But I’ve heard of other similar “deliverances” as abusive shouting dress-downs and this seems to fit the pattern of Driscoll and those deliverances. (I’ve been through a deliverance and it was not at all abusive. Spooky for me and new, but not abusive. There is no reason to yell at a demon and exhaust the client.)
This is an endemic.
“Alright then, but if that’s going to be the case, then the Bible’s canon needs to be adjusted.”
Hmmm…sounds a little like “Jesus Needs New PR,” doesn’t it?
So sad all of this. Even while Amy divorced her husband, their view of church discipline is completely out of line with Scripture, along with a great deal more. If this is how Driscoll sees his role as shepherd, then he truly needs to repent. Our role is guide, preach, teach and love the sheep. Not beat them. There is so much wrong with this, I need to think about it even more.
Brothers and sisters, pray for Amy and please show her the love of Christ.
Blessings
Timothy
this sends waves of grief into the deepest parts of my being. it is not only so terribly wrong, it is given “perfect justification”. the bible is contorted to suit a belief. for many of the mh lemmings, what mark/mh is doing is accurate, and good.
spiritual abuse is a lot like sexual abuse — it goes and sinks in to your very identity. you begin to look at yourself the way your pastor sees you and if that is negative, then you begin to feel hopeless. it can get to the point of suicide. if no one is telling you that your life is worthy, and if the people are in fact telling you the exact opposite
i am so sad for the people in this congregation, the friends that turned away from amy, amy herself, and the other people enslaved in this narrow-minded, bigoted, abusive thinking.
we must be the refuge that the abused find. we must welcome them with open arms.
oops. kind of lost my train of thought … “if no one is telling you that your life is worthy, and if the people are in fact telling you the exact opposite, you will experience deep confusion and depression.
Renee,
Totally agree! We Christ-lovers need to be the loudest voices against all sorts of bullying and abuse and the most comforting ears and arms for the victims.
btw, I really appreciated Stumbling Toward Faith.
What a tragic story. Amy, my heart goes out to you for the abuse and injustice that you have been through. I wish I could give you a hug and cry with you. What you learned about “Cookie Cutter Christianity” from Mars Hill is not the truth at all. Jesus does not want us to fit in a cookie-cutter mold of sinlessness at all because he knows we could never do it – we can never measure up and will fail. That’s why he did it for us and that is why there is grace. The awesome mystery of Christianity = Christ in you as you.
Compelling stuff there, thanks to Matthew and Amy for sharing. But I cant help but wonder what, if any, responses were offered up when Mark was attempting to directly address Amy’s demons? Were audible words actually coming out of her mouth in response, or was it essentially a monologue by Mark?
The results on the woman’s life are especially tragic. The one question not in the article that I’d really like to know her answer to is “What is the gospel?”
I understand she’s not a Christian, but it would be illuminating to know how she’d answer that question, after years as a member at that church.
Oh God, please let it end. This is so disgusting.
With yet another story of abuse at the hands of Mark Driscoll and MH Seattle, how long is it going to take before the sh*t hits the fan, and the church completely implodes? And yes, if anyone needs to repent it’s Driscoll for committing the abuses against Amy, Andrew, and others, as well as the membership of Mars Hill who have enabled it by keeping silent.
So, when is Driscoll moving everyone to the South American compound?
My concerns began long before the full story here was told. Mark Driscoll, “pastor” Driscoll, told “off color” jokes to women in his church? This vile individual was not fit for the office of the ministry from day one, let alone civilized company. The fact that he ever was given the title “pastor”, let alone praised and coddled by the Reformed Big Boys, is just another example of the smoking ruins of evangelicalism. Run Baby Run. I’ve already left anything calling itself an institutional “church.” There’s almost nothing left.
absolutely heartbreaking. i pray that she encounters christians full of grace and truth… and the real liberating jesus. so sad. more and more stories like this are going to come out i assume.
I agree 100%. So, what ought those people who are not a part of those communities do about it? Anything? Nothing? Force engagement of those other Xians who are parts of those communities (A29), etc?
You know who I’d like to hear from on all this? Matt Chandler. Darrin Patrick. James McDonald. Josh Harris. Al Mohler. John Piper. CJ Mahaney. These guys are Reformed (or at least lean in a Reformed direction) and run in the same ministerial tribe. Piper and Mahaney are supposedly men Driscoll look up to, and (supposedly) have disciplined him in the past. Are any of them asking questions? Like even, “Mark, what’s going on here? Is any of this true?” Or, sadly, are they all just going to look the other way?
I totally agree! I’m very interested to see how the reformed “big voices”, Mars Hill, and Acts29 respond to this article.
Does nobody here have any patience? This story just came out TODAY. Let’s wait and see if anyone else of note comments on this issue.
While this story may have come out recently, it is certainly not the first, or the most damning (not to take away from it at all, but check out joyfulexiles.com for what an ex-pastor went through).
I sincerely believe the Reformed community (specifically the power players) knows about all these stories that are surfacing.
The problem is, none of those guys seem willing to do anything about it. If you go check out joyfulexiles.com, I believe former MH pastor/elder Paul Petry recalls how he contacted feformed guys (like John Piper, Chandler, etc) to intervene in his situation (MH leadership lying to the church about him, firing him from his position without cause) and they never got back to him. I don’t think any of those guys have a backbone to stand up to Mark, sadly, or the agree with him.
Which is just sad. I believe you’re right, and I have so much respect for men like Chandler and Harris. Chandler is not a weak man, and I believe if anyone could confront Driscoll about this, it’d be him.
But perhaps it’s really true: no one wants to stand toe-to-toe with him. Apparently his pastor-partner, Leif Moi, did and was fired for it.
You mean Piper, who told wives to endure beatings for a moment until they could run to the church? The same Piper who runs the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, which teaches that it is right and good that a man is the unquestioned leader of the household and the church and that the woman’s job is to help the male – largely by doing his bidding silently?
THAT Piper? The guy who believes that the Church should be run by a “Masculine Feel” that will smother and protect women?
Yeah, run away.
This is the second time that I’ve seen MH respond to a situation of this nature by going all PR and trotting out a series of sermons to prove their point. It becomes self-serving in this case. There’s going to have to be a face-to-face interview of some nature–and it’s going to have to happen sooner than later.
Sad, sad stuff.
Because Marky is too chicken to.do that. He blocked Matt from viewing.his tweets. Mark is nothing but a coward, the self-serving one.
Shouldn’t others in the Mark Driscoll circle of friends and influence be investigated as cults? Reason I ask is that nothing develops in a vacuum, not even a cult.
Mark Driscoll is a bully hiding behind a pulpit. Plain and simple.
I actually think its time to take some tougher action on this one. I agree with Melody 100%The ” there are two sides to every story” line has gone far enough. It’s time for a boycott in anything Driscoll unto, he answers questions.
These keep coming up and they keep turning you to a website. I shake my head in disgust.
Hmm.
I’ve read other articles about Mars Hill and I’ve read comments that Mark Driscoll has made with regards to women – my all time favorite being about how women owe their husbands oral sex when it’s that time of the month. All I can say is that he not only has obvious issues with women (I know, duh), but that anyone that focuses that much on sex has got something wrong. I’d say he’s closeted, but why would I wish Mark Driscoll on the gay community? I want to support them and Mark Driscoll is a punishment.
Another thing I would like to add is that I’ve heard a lot pansy type comment from people (usually who are part of these kinds of churches) who feel they shouldn’t judge someone like Driscoll, or as I heard someone say: “We can’t know what’s in his heart”, yada yada yada. You know what? How nice for you. Guess what? YOU are part of the abuse because you stand by and do nothing except shrug your wee shoulders and say it’s not for you to judge. YOU are an abuser to. I grew up in house where my mother was hit and told by those in charge of the church that she was not being “submissive” enough. YOU did nothing and YOU stand by and do nothing now against bullies like Mark Driscoll.
Right on, Millie. To his defenders: If you aren’t part of the solution, you’re part of the problem.
ummm…. We all know that there are 3 sides to every story right??? Her side… His side…. and the Truth — just a helpful reminder.
It’s not just her side of the story, multiple people have revealed the abusive tactics of this cult. The evidence is against Driscoll. Get off the fence.
“Tolerance of intolerance is cowardice”–Ayaan Hirsi Ali
LOVE this comment. Keep up the great comments, tcc!!
oh… im not on the fence — i support the Biblical teaching of Mark and i know his heart for this women (and for families). It looks like this lady wanted to divorce and walk away and Pastor Mark & others were doing their pastoral duty to encourage her & her husband to fight to stay in the marriage — So because He’s leading her w/ God’s Word and God’s Authority he’s all of the sudden the ‘bad guy” — um… i dont buy it…. I think the bigger issue here is this girl has an Authority issue and is lashing out because the pastoral staff @ MH wouldn’t validate her desire to break covenant w/ God & her husband.
She is not a girl. She is a grown woman.
THANK you, Noelle. Ugh.
Okay, so you’re ignoring the evidence and admitting you’re biased towards Driscoll. Alright then.
You’re also pretty selective in who’s breaking “the covenant”. Doesn’t Jesus explicitly say anyone who divorces from his wife and remarries commits adultery? Her husband still gets to be apart of the jamboree, why not her? Why is his sexual sin less than her’s?
Yes, you are bad guy. You think men are higher than women and should speak only when spoken to, simply because of your biased, uneducated reading of the Bible. You filthy, misogynistic bastard.
Wow – such hateful language. I don’t condone the teachings of Driscoll and I believe that anger at spiritual abuse (which is obviously happening at Mars Hill) is righteous and justified. But I don’t find your tone or your choice of words to be at all productive or helpful. You actually begin to sound like Driscoll when you express your anger toward him and his supporters in such a love-less and grace-less way. I believe that you have insightful things to say and I appreciate your passion for justice and change but I would caution you to not become like the very people you criticize.
After all, it isn’t as if Paul would say that those who disagree with him should castrate themselves, right?
(See Galatians 5.12 in an accurate translation. http://bible.oremus.org/?ql=207321126 )
Yes, Paul is allowed to say such things, but not if his name was Pauline.
He did his pastoral duty by accusing her of having ‘sexual demons’ and performing an exorcism on her?
What the hell.
Her husband clearly wanted the divorce too, and he’s now remarried and still welcome at Mars Hill. At the very least, that’s a double standard.Your comment that this ‘girl’ has an authority issue is telling. First, referring to a grown adult as a girl is an attempt to delegitimise her. Second, Amy states that anything she said was ignored or dismissed as ‘challenging authority’. That’s textbook silencing of dissent. It’s a way to ignore people’s concerns. It’s saying that no other opinion will ever be heard. It’s saying that Driscoll’s opinion is perfect and anyone who dares question it must therefore be sinful. And it destroys people.
And about Mark’s heart for women. I heard him preach once, he came down here to Australia about 5 or 6 years ago. He spoke for around an hour, and despite his audience being easily 50% female, he spent 90% of the time speaking exclusively to men. The sole comment he directed towards women was asking those of us who were single to put up our hands, then telling the men to ‘man up’ and marry us and start families. Mark’s ‘heart’ for women seems to extend no further than making us chattels.
PREACH IT, PAM!
Sorry, but why does her husband bear no responsibility in this? Why is he allowed to be a jerk and to treat her like a dog? Why is he not counseled to “love her as Christ loved the Church?” The answer of course is because in the MH world, boys will be boys. It’s just that simple. When the Ted Haggard incident came to light, MD made a comment implying that it wasn’t really Ted’s fault, as his wife had “let herself go.” WOW. Quite ironic that Driscoll has the nerve to talk about women letting themselves go, as he stands there with a beer belly, three day old beard, and wearing a Mickey Mouse T-shirt.
There’s a simple explanation to all of that, Alan:
Penis = good
Vagina = bad
Amazing how americans can take one woman’s word for everything especially when no evidence was offered by her. Just her side of the story. I got tired of reading this because it basically amounted to a bitter person’s attack on someone who could not defend themselves at the time of the interview.l
I also love how others have picked up this tale and labeled someone and his ‘church’ a cult leader and a cult based solely upon one womans unsubstantiated whinings. I am not saying she lied and i am not saying she is telling the truth but there needs to be honest investigation and real evidence produced than one man’s emotional re-telling of a bitter woman’s ‘story’ to judge and condemn someone as a cult leader and his work a cult.
Christianity does NOT go as the secular world and people need to be clear on that and not make the mistake of importing secular ideas to christian teaching when they are analyzing another believer and his work. One would have to vet the author of this and any other piece to make sure he does not have a personal vendetta against the church in question and that he is honestly re-telling the events and not manipulating public opinion for any ulterior motive.
You woman-hating son of a bitch. Hers is not the only account of abuse. There have been numerous accounts by BOTH sexes. You just want an excuse to bash women who think for themselves. Shame on you, misogynist.
Now, now. Such harsh words for such a despicable man with despicable notions. Clearly, “Dr.” David Tee is not a woman-hating son of a bitch. He’s a misogynistic, anachronistic dinosaur ass.
Who writes blog posts refuting evolution. So we all know he’s a winner who is really, really good with the logics and stuff.
name calling and swearing only undermines your position in any issue. i do not need an excuse to bash women,women just need to realize that biblical rules apply to them as well and that justice is not blindly taking their word for it.
Oh, I see. You mean women need to know “their place.” In other words, subordinate to women. I stand by what I said. Did I say Bobby had male privilege? Boy was I wrong. Your comments SCREAM privilege. You care more about a book that does not apply to us today than about actually listening to and respecting women. The fact that you think she should submit to someone she isn’t meant for speaks volumes about you. You are the enemy of human rights, and I can tell you, Jesus is ashamed of you.
That should read “subordinate” to men. (You can delete these two if you want, Matt. I see the correct one below.)
Oh, I see. You mean women need to know “their place.” In other words, subordinate to men. I stand by what I said. Did I say Bobby had male privilege? Boy was I wrong. Your comments SCREAM privilege. You care more about a book that does not apply to us today than about actually listening to and respecting women. The fact that you think she should submit to someone she isn’t meant for speaks volumes about you. You are the enemy of human rights, and I can tell you, Jesus is ashamed of you.
It isn’t based just on “one woman’s claims”, it’s based on the testimonies of multiple people who’ve left this church. There’s enough evidence here to seriously question the tactics of this guy and his church, and to accuse them of being jackasses.
You’re ignoring the evidence that’s been presented and then saying we don’t have any evidence. Also, cut the “silly Americans” bullshit. Not needed.
Seriously. Is this guy from a country run by fundamentalist muslims? Only a fundamentalist could be so disrespectful of women.
Well, not just fundamentalists. But the fact that he took a jab at our country listening to women is telling.
Oy. I’m exhausted from this. I’m taking a break from commenting for a while.
That is probably a good idea. I’ve read all of the comments and your final few are uncalled for. I mean, really? Is it necessary to call someone a son of a bitch or a bastard? I highly doubt that. This SHOULD be a place for everyone to comment without being afraid of speaking their opinion because someone is going to call them names. Being passionate about your point of view is one thing but calling someone names is bullying. That is absolutely not a way to show Jesus to anyone.
Look, I disagree with Driscoll on multiple levels but don’t sink to his low. That kind of reaction is just what people like that want to see. It makes you and your view look bad.
Yes, it is necessary to call people what they are.
The bullies are oh-so-offended that you dare call them bullies!
I think the only reason I cringed at the name-calling is because everyone starts screaming (and rightly so) when someone uses clearly misogynist terms (see “shrill bitch”). We can’t honestly call them out if we don’t hold ourselves to the same standard. I think that terms like “bastard” and “son of a bitch” are clearly rooted in misogyny. Most of our mean names are, now that I think about it.
^ This.
Sometime the evangelical Christian fan club needs to hear words in blunt tones. I appreciate what Melody is saying.
If you don’t understand how someone like Mark Driscoll makes church toxic and not a safe place, then you won’t understand why Melody is angry.
If Melody is bullying, then at least she’s bullying a bully. Writing off someone’s account of abuse as “whining” is so much worse than name-calling.
Bravo, Kyle. Exactly.
Melody, is it really necessary to call someone you disagree with a woman hating son of a bitch? Or a misogynist? Or a bastard?
Nothing wrong with passionate disagreement, but insults? To the guy’s mother?
Oh, good grief, don’t take me so literally. It’s an expression of contempt. Anyway, the fact that you only see it as simply disagreeing with me and not utter disrespect for women says a lot about your male privilege. And anyone who thinks he’s higher than women is unequivocally a misogynistic, woman-hating bastard/SOB. That is the truth, and I will not stop fighting men who think this way. I don’t care if it isn’t “nice.”
Okay, got that off my chest. Later.
Now you paint me as someone who over-reacts. Fascinatingly, the same tactics Mark Driscoll uses to dismiss his critics.
Are you insinuating that I’m a misogynistic, women-hating bastard/SOB? I’ll say the same thing I said above to Perpetua: You don’t know me. I’m as sickened and infuriated by these accounts as you are. Mark Driscoll was one of my ministry heroes. But insulting people will do nothing here. You descend to the same level as Driscoll.
Um, no. Read to whom I was responding. You might reread what I said to you. It has nothing to do with you.
Okay, I can see how you might have thought I was referring to you. That was not my intention, I promise. I was referring specifically to the Dr and to Brad. When I made the “male privilege” comment, I didn’t mean you were like them. I just meant that since you didn’t think it was necessary for me to call them that, I figured you didn’t find their comments nearly as offensive to women as I did, since those kinds of comments don’t directly affect you as a man. Perhaps I was wrong. I still believe in calling a spade a spade when it comes to those other guys. But if I misunderstood you, I apologize.
Well then I’ll add that I probably misunderstood you too, and certainly offer my apologies for any offense. This is a very heated topic (obviously) so even allies are bound to accidentally fire off a few shots at one another.
In general, there’s little else to say. Some feel that Amy isn’t telling the truth, or at least that her claims must be substantiated first. For any of those who might read this, visit http://www.joyfulexiles.com. Then http://www.marshillrefuge.blogspot.com. One or two stories are easy to dismiss. I’ll admit to it, I (as a former Driscoll fanboy) did so. But all that’s surfaced…and if you know current Reformed culture like I do…it’s too much. You can’t ignore it. Mars Hill/Mark Driscoll should at least come forward and answer these stories without some canned PR talk on their website.
Hmm…just typed out a long reply, but it didn’t post. Urgh.
Short version: My apologies if I misunderstood you, too. Even allies can occasionally fire off a few ill-aimed shots in this tension-cooker of a topic.
There’s little else to say in general. Some refuse to believe this woman’s story, or at least demand proof. For those who might happen upon this, visit joyfulexiles.com and marshillrefuge.blogspot.com. If you understand the current Reformed culture as I do (spent the last four years following everything Neo-Reformed) then these stories are sadly not at all hard to believe.
Mark Driscoll is a dog who is destroying Christ’s church. If you need evidence, this account and comment thread here should say it all. He has brought gross division. Yes, he is an arrogant SOB. And if people like you, Bobby, got as angry at the dividers and false shepherds in Christ’s church, these stories wouldn’t be so prevalent.
You’ve completely misunderstood me. I posted above the website http://www.joyfulexiles.com which contains plenty of evidence detailing Driscoll’s transgressions.
“And if people like you” – You don’t even know me. I doubt you’re even interested in knowing me. You found someone you perceived to be a Driscoll fanboy and unleashed an alpha strike. I’m on your team in this matter.
Yes, Melody, is it really necessary to call people what they are instead of sugar-coating it so we can all just ignore it and feel good?
Somatic, you might consider that insults degrade people. Insults do not solve problems, they only guarantee retaliation. This point has been magnificently proven throughout all 300+ of the comments for this article.
And I hope you’re not accusing me of sugar coating or ignoring for the sake of bliss. I’ve already pointed others to sites with more stories of Driscoll’s behavior. I don’t know that I’d classify that as ‘ignoring.’
Misogynistic is not an insult, it is a description.
Not ignoring any evidence but biblical rules are very clear how to handle these situations and using biased, emotional unsubstantiated complaints by disgruntled ex-members are not part of the deal. Justice has to be extended to all and the only justice allowed in the church is God’s not a human’s idea of it.
Anyone can accuse, it is easy to do, but are those accusations correct are they dealing truthfully and honestly with the situation, are they presenting the real facts and on it goes. If yo are a part of the kingdom of God then yo go by God’s rules not your own.
Which book is it that talks about yelling at someone about their sex life? I thought I’d read every book of the Bible, but I’ve obviously missed one, because I’ve never read anything on that.
Prove they are God’s rules. Without quoting the Bible. I’ll bet you can’t. You can’t prove it’s even God’s word. Not even by quoting 2 Timothy 3:16-17 (see, we filthy librulls read the Bible too!), because even the Hebrew scriptures weren’t finalized when Paul (presumably) wrote that letter.
What an unrealistic demand. That is like me asking you to prove your a woman without: exposing any part of your body, showing any pictures of yourself, speaking, having your relatives and friends vouch for you etc.
when you return to the land of the realistic let me know. God wrote His rules IN THE BIBLE that is where you will find them. You will not find them anywhere else.
You do realize that the Bible didn’t have to be finalized for God to speak through Paul to His people right?
Again, PROVE it. You keep making all these confident claims based solely on the fact that YOU SAY SO. Get back to me when you have some real proof.
I think he wants you to prove that you’re a woman, Melody…
Where are the rules in bible for “handling” a situation like this? Mark isn’t interested in talking to anyone about the multiple charges against him. He’s made himself the final authority over the thousands of people who attend his church – and I do mean “his church”. Who is supposed to hold him accountable?
It is not just the word of one woman. There are many individuals, some of them conservative evangelicals, who have expressed concern about Mark Driscoll. Also in the comment you have expressed that too many people are taking one woman’s word over this holy man– are you implying absolutely that the lady is a liar? I couldn’t make such a claim, even if I held the lofty view that “Reverend Doctors” or any other self important clergy are untouchable. If Amy’s claims, compounded with the other accusations are true, I hope that Driscoll and his ilk, go down, down, and down. A beautiful thing about this internet age is that nothing is hidden.
“Whinings”…your word choice pretty much says it all.
In the mouths of two or three witnesses let everything be established. There are a whole lot more than that who have testified to Driscoll’s spiritual abuse club. As for vetting the author, let me suggest that you worry about the vetting of today’s pastors before they end up destroying Christ’s flock and scattering them. That’s what should worry you, man.
Every time Matt has done one of these articles, he’s made an attempt to reach the Mars Hill folks for “their side”. And, at least from what I’ve read, they do nothing but retreat behind form-letter talking points–or in this case, a link to a pre-recorded sermon series. Whooptie-doo.
It’s not like these guys aren’t getting an opportunity to address these accusations–they’re choosing not to reply. Read the article all the way to the end next time.
Last I looked, the owner of this blog was notpromoted by God to the headof the ‘pastor police’. If a person is going to expose a false teacher then they need to do it biblically, not based upon one side of the story by emotional disgruntled people.
you check their teachings with the Bible’s NOT YOUR OWN and then if they ae in error you have to find out if they are doing it accidently, or have been mislead, or misguided, or if they are doing it on purpose and reject real biblical teaching
You do not do it based upon the word of a fallible human being who may be trying to retaliate or hurt the person in question. This whole topic is much more complex than you think or want it to be. Plus you have to give the offending party a chance to repent and get back in line with God’s word.
You all are judging and condemning and placing yourselves in God’s position and that is wrong. Repent and get right withHim and learn to do things biblically–not the american way/
And you are placing yourself in God’s position by claiming to know his mind. The Bible is NOT the official rulebook of morality, much less the official word of God. You want women to be submissive and to lord it over them, so you use the Bible to excuse your bigotry. Well, we all see through that. Your shtick isn’t going to work with us. Quit while you’re behind (you’ll never be ahead here).
And now we see which side of the fence you are on and everyone can dismiss everything you say because you do not believe and you think you can tell me what I want which shoots down your first sentence.
Yes, the Bible is the official rulebook on morality. There is no other. Those who say what you did do so because they want to chart their own path making you as bad as mark driscoll or other false teachers.
if you are going to debate a topic, it would be best if you stopped with the ad hominems and put up real points to your perspective. All you have shown is that you have nothing on your side of the issue and just love to bully and attack others.
The thing is the Bible’s not a very long book, and it covers so many different types of writing. It contains writings on morality and law and how to live, but it isn’t anywhere near exhaustive on those topics. We can and should use it as a reference on those things, but we’re going to have to do a lot of inferring. The Bible doesn’t set out the process for dealing with every situation that could arise in a church, so you simply cannot hold any process up as being perfectly biblical. And you cannot say with certainty that it is ‘unbiblical’ to publish someone’s story.
Well said. The bible is not a “rulebook.” It’s God’s communication of his salvation to us in a variety of genres and personalties. While there are some patterns we can safely say need to be consistent in a redeemed person, its largely up to the church today to figure out what the Gospel looks like in our modern world.
Then prove it. You can’t make a claim without proof.
I checked your website out, Dr Tee. The first thing I saw was you showing support to the Korean government for censoring evolution out of biology textbooks in their schools.
You’re a fascist crackpot. GTFO.
“you check their teachings with the Bible’s” It’s been done. Over and over.
“find out if they are doing it accidently, or have been mislead, or misguided, or if they are doing it on purpose” Can’t be done as Mark and the MH leadership refuse comment
“You all are judging and condemning and placing yourselves in God’s position and that is wrong” We judge a man by his fruits, right? That is the only way available to us. As for condemning, none of us has the power to do that.
What does the Bible say to do in the face of a false teacher leading people astray and harming those he is tasked with protecting? There is no “authority” over Mark (aside from god if you believe that way etc).
Seriously, the “silly Americans” thing makes you sound like an ex-pat trying to make it in a hipster, London neighborhood. Get over yourself.
What does the Bible say? Many things—1. stick to the truth for they can do nothing against it; 2. pray without ceasing; 3. do good to those who do evil; 4. do not judge nor condemn; and there are a lot more verses which give instructions on what true believers are to do.
to combat sin a true believer does not use sin.
Telling someone’s story isn’t a sin.
Pam–indeed! Telling someone’s story is the opposite of sin! It’s holy! =) Matthew Paul Turner is a fucking awesome holy narrative high priest. =).
“Matthew Paul Turner is a fucking awesome holy narrative high priest. =)”
Love it.
“Dr.” David, there is NOTHING biblical about silencing victims of abuse. Check yourself.
🙂
Does this title come with a light saber?
No. But you get to eat the leftover sacrifices.
no. it comes with a vibrating nimbus 2000 broom. =P
Google still hasn’t picked up on this title, and there are zero results. which means when they do finally pick up on it, the single result will lead here. You own it on the internet, Matthew Paul Turner
Sure it is if it isn’t the truth, done with the wrong spirit, or disobeys God in some other fashion.
It isn’t about silencing supposed victims of abuse but investigating honestly, biblically and in the right spirit with God do the leading. I see none of that in this article.
As soon as you use the word ‘supposed’ to dismiss the legitimacy of complainants you’re part of the problem. Every suggestion of abuse must be heard and examined. Every single one. The very first thing you learn when you do any training on how to deal with situations of abuse is that you do not dismiss the person who is telling you their story. What you have done in your comments is dismiss Amy outright.
When a church – like Mars Hill – is leaving this sort of wreckage in people’s lives, when they aren’t given the opportunity to raise their concerns within their church, they need to do so from the outside. A blog like this is one way to do so.
Then who are you? Seriously? Why do you care? Are you the Pastor Police Police?
Honestly, you lack any reason or logic and are nothing but a shrill attack dog for misogynists. You claim to speak for God, but you don’t. You speak for your god. Who, once again, climbed into your mouth and died there.
Where did I make such a claim? It is not wise to put words in other people’s mouths.
I stopped reading when I got to your phrase “one woman.” Must be nice to simply stick your head in the sand and ignore the hundreds (thousands???) of stories of abuse. When I was in Kindergarden, I learned that where there’s smoke, there’s fire.
But hey, enjoy the trip to South America. Just don’t drink the……nevermind.
Rattling excellent info can be found on this web site.
What in the WORLD does she mean by “dark features”?? Are these people racist along with their other ugly characteristics? I sure hope I’m somehow misreading that comment…
That’s an awfully passive-aggressive way to go about insulting someone, Ann. But the answer to the question you weren’t really asking is this: she means that she’s Italian, as she noted elsewhere in the piece.
Um, not following you there. I don’t think I’m insulting anyone, except possibly the kind of people who would attend a church like Mars Hill. She comments that she was different from the other women because of her tattoos and dark features. I’m not personally part of a community in which “dark features” would be somehow problematic., or unusual in any fashion. The implication of this seems to be that Mars Hill is racist,as well as profoundly misogynistic, hence, my question. Direct enough for you?
My apologies, Ann. I thought you were calling Amy a racist and going after the people who’ve spoken out against Mars Hill. Glad to see I was 100% mistaken.
I used to be a fan of Mark and even defended him in comment sections just like this, but after all this spiritual abuse stuff started coming out. Fuck that shit man. I tossed his books, unfollowed him on Twitter and got rid of his sermons on Itunes. I was a victim of that type of stuff myself.
I hear you, man. Same story here. The stuff on Joyful Exiles by the Petrys is just devastating. Yes, Mark deserves a chance to defend himself, but he doesn’t appear to be interested in doing that. Just posting PR-speak through Mars Hill. Just turning a blind eye and saying, “They don’t understand.”
Kudos to you, sincerely.
This just makes me so sad. Amy, I am terribly sorry for what happened to you. I was rejected by my parents for over a year when I began questioning the Word-Faith church I’d been brought up in for my entire life (I’m an artist myself). That was bad enough, but to have a whole church do so—your best friends—gracious. How awful and unkind…and all based on what?
Again, this is terribly sad, and Amy, I am so sorry.
Very sad but he is consistent in his male dominated Christian Brotherhood.
That Mark Driscoll is one sick puppy.
“Those who believe absurdities can commit atrocities.” — Voltaire
Amy, I’m so, so sorry. I hope for peace and healing for you as well as protection for your children. I’m ashamed that you walked through the door of a church and were treated like this.
Just a friendly reminder from a counselor who specializes in trauma: people always blame the victim! Whether it’s sexual, physical, emotional, or even spiritual abuse. Victim blaming is a convenient way to deny abuse.
Ahaa, its good discussion on the topic of this article at thisplace at this blog, I have read all that, so at this time me also commenting here.
I am a therapist that works quite a bit with spiritual abuse survivors…not by choice! Having graduated from a seminary with an MA in counseling I am well networked with people in Christian churches in my town and hence see a lot of hurting Christians. Not all of them experienced spiritual abuse however it’s a good percentage. What I have researched and studied on spiritual abuse is that there are some key characteristics of involved ( http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/abuse-ch.html ) Not all of these criteria need to be met and there really is not a definitive and researched definition of abusive churches. With that said, Mars Hill hits almost all of these markers based on the exit reports and inside witness reports for the most part. That cannot be ignored. There is systematic and persistent pattern of control and manipulation at play here and to be silent out of “not gossiping” is a twisted intention of the challenge to not gossip. Gossip is malicious however exposure is telling a story. I taught my kids the difference between tattling and reporting. Tattling at is core is motivated by getting the other person in trouble and reporting is telling for safety. I see stories like this mostly as reporting rather than tattling. Is there some conjecture and possibly some tattling involved…sure, we are only human and not perfect but the core motive seems to be for the safety of others. It is rare for people to go public with abuse stories…really it is! Most abuse cases go unreported due to the high degree of shame, self-blame and fear involved in disclosure. Even though this story uses a false name doesn’t qualify it as anonymous…it’s anonymous to most of us but not those in the MH circle. This author risks exposure and additional shame! All kinds of abuses are too many church’s “dirty little secret” from the bedroom, home, fellowship hall to the sanctuary. It is, in my opinion, Christians’ responsibility to report abuse…not always in national/international venues but in cases where an abusive pastor’s words are broadcast internationally than yes…we are responsible to keep people safe, especially safe from those who would mar Jesus’ name. If MH was simply a church that promoted complimentary marriage values as the most Biblical from their understanding of scripture then we could debate vigorously…very vigorously. But this goes way beyond dividing over marriage structure…this is an issue of abuse…this could even happen in churches that promote egalitarian views of marriage because it’s not about marriage it’s about power and control and quite a bit of narcissism in leadership and a whole lot of dependance by followers. I truly do pray that Mark and the other leaders of MH take to heart the pain in these stories and let their ministry be influenced by that pain towards a place of repentance, grace, and compassion.
Testify!
Seriously, thank you for this and for the work you do, Tina!
2005 was before a huge portion of the church left. It’s possible since the 2007 firings that more former members of Mars Hill than current members would have any idea who Amy may be.
Wow. I realize there are some serious problems at MH, however many of the commenters do no good service in the pursuit of the truth by being over the top, hysterical and mean spirited, Melody, whatever you have going on, youv’e got bigger problems than Mark Driscoll and the MH church. You are a shrill bitch and need to knock it off if you expect anyone to take you seriously.
Stryker, how can you expect her to take YOU seriously when you just called her a ‘shrill bitch?’
That’s an incredibly misogynist thing to say. If speaking the truth makes her a shrill bitch, well, I’m just going to quote Egyptian feminist Nawal al Sadaawi here: “They say I am a savage and dangerous woman. I am speaking the truth, and the truth is savage and dangerous.”
Christians like Melody and the author of this blog are why I am able to appreciate any aspects of Christianity whatsoever after my experiences with the church.
if melody is a christian then her words deny her claims. If Driscoll is a false teacher then attack his doctrines and compare them to biblical teaching BUT YOU must have the truth or you are just wasting everybody’s time. again, you need to have God’s words correct and not import secular cultural ideas or philosophies into them or you are just injecting more false teaching into the mix and not helping anyone.
if you want to get people out of a cult make sure it is a cult first then start praying until God shows you the correct way to go about it. Then you have to verify it is actually God leading you andnot an angel of darkness disguised as light.
of course, that means you need to be humble and put aside your desires and follow God.
This could take an extremely long time. Perhaps as long as the many years I stayed in an extremely dysfunctional church, waiting for God to direct me elsewhere. By then, deep damage had already been done.
The dysfunctional and destructive environment should have been reason enough to jettison the place pronto, and take others to safety with me.
What you describe is simply not practical.
But yet, MD’s actions and words somehow don’t deny his claims to be a Christian. Pot, meet kettle. I so wish I could live in your world. Must be fun there bro.
Someone speaks out against the wrong treatment of women and gets called a shrill b*tch. How original!!!
treatment of the opposite sex is a two way street. women are NOT to wait for the man to do it to them first and vice versa. christian behavior is NOT dependent upon how you are treated, Christ’s life and crucifixion gave you that example.
“Hysterical”
Ah, yes, I see. When a woman tells her side of the story, she’s hysterical. Why wasn’t it all clear to me before? Unless the woman is agreeing with the man’s side of the story, she’s an emotional, shrill, hysterical bitch obviously on the rag.
Gotcha! Thanks for the heads-up, Cap’n Caveman!
I agree that Melody may be going a little over-the-top with her name-calling. I understand and share her anger and most of her opinions on the matter but “screaming” as it were does nothing to further the truth or the conversation. Now, she has NO responsibility to our holier-than-thou “Dr.” friend but in that case, we tell him he’s wrong and move along.Melody, I’m behind you 100% here. We HAVE to call out abuse no matter where it resides and refuse to be silenced by those who shout “UN-BIBLICAL!” as an attempt to shroud their misogyny. That said, as I read through all these comments last night I saw a few instances where you were incredibly harsh with someone and then had to apologize because you misunderstood their position. What that says to me is that you have to step back and take a breath, which is what you chose to do so I totally respect that.
In general, to speak the truth, to call someone out or whathaveyou, does not have to include labels and lashing out. Calling someone a misogynistic bastard is not just telling the truth. Calling someone a “shrill bitch” is no better and arguably even worse but I think even Melody recognized that she needed to step back.
I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree here. I believe in calling misogynists what they are. They might not technically be bastards or SOBS, but they deserve the contemptuous names I call them. I have nothing but contempt for men who think women are the weaker sex, just as I have only contempt for outspoken racists and homophobes. They deserve a lashing out. And I won’t back down.
But you’re right about where I misunderstood a few commenters, who in turn misunderstood me. This is a topic I’m extremely passionate about, and sometimes I go in over my head. But I won’t apologize to haters like “Dr.” Tee, Brad, and Stryker. I mean what I said about them, and won’t take it back, because it’s true.
You say you’re so passionate about this topic but I’m curious to know what you’re actually doing to make the situation better. Are you getting your hands dirty and helping victims of bullying and abuse or are you just sitting in front of a computer screen arguing and name-calling with people whose minds you’re probably not going to change? Seems like if you really cared so much about the injustice and abuse suffered by women at the hands of misogynistic men, you would spend your time doing something more productive. As a victim of emotional and sexual abuse by a real SOB, I can tell you that the people who helped me heal the most weren’t people who just got angry at him – they were the people who loved on me in tangible ways.
You know what? We all seek healing and growth in different ways and we’re all at different phases. I don’t know Melody or her story(ies), but I recognize that passion. It’s not something to be reprimanded or controlled. Let her go through her journey, let her find her path. If you want to be her friend and counsel her on her path, then seek to be that friend.
What you’re doing now is confusing where she is right now from some place that just may be a bit further down the road – or may not be for her at all. Or, perhaps she IS involved deeply in it and that’s why this issue and this story brings out the passion in her.
I know for me, when I hear of Republicans wanting to rip food from children and mothers, I want to rip some heads off. I need to find a place to rant and rave and mock and deride before and while, even, I’m doing something more constructive (educating, tutoring, signing petitions, informing my friends why they should get passionate about this, etc…).
Yes. None of us gets to decide how another person heals. In her comment, Elizabeth sets up the oh-so-common false dichotomy of “you spend your time ranting on the webs instead of DOING something!” They do not need to be mutually exclusive.
Look, Elizabeth, I’m sorry for the abuse you’ve suffered. Of course you needed tangible support. What made you think I don’t know that? Likewise, abusive monsters need to be called out for what they are and put in their place. I’m not some idle slacktivist, like you’re implying. It’s because these situations make me furious that I’m driven to actively fight for abused and repressed women. It’s called righteous indignation. Sympathy for the oppressed, and indignation at the oppressors. Please don’t assume that an angry feminist is only that–we love our sisters and would do anything for them. And for you. In short, I’m letting men like Dr. Tee know that what they’re saying and teaching isn’t okay and that as a woman, I won’t stand for it. In spite of my rage (which I admit went over the edge at times), I have nothing but compassion for women who have experienced situations like yours.
I wrote a “shrill bitch” response, but for some reason it ended up in reply to someone else below. Anyway, you watch yourself, you lowlife SOB. If you’d said that to my face, you’d have a pair of bruised testicles to go with your already low sexual self-esteem.
I don’t take shit from anyone, especially a sexually insecure dickhead like you.
Sad to say my now former best friend (of the closest degree) has been lured into the Mars Hill machine. She was formerly an outspoken atheist before moving to Seattle. Basically abandoned our friendship (though she somehow thought it would strengthen it??) and after a month or 2 of knowing one of the male members is now engaged. I fear for what might become of her. She is not one to be submissive and obedient so I can only wonder how she’ll fare over time. I see a lot of initial similarities between her current path and the story told here. No one person should have that much control and say over others beliefs and actions.
Really? An outspoken atheist going to Mars Hill regularly? That’s different. If things are as bad as this and other accounts say, hopefully she’ll leave and join a loving church elsewhere.
Hopefully she can leave without taking some potshots to the back.
Wow. That may be more misogynistic than anything “Dr.” Tee said. Well here’s some advice, Stryker: FUCK OFF., you woman-hating, motherfucking bastard. I hope karma comes back to you with a vengeance.
Oops, that obviously was intended for Stryker. No idea how it ended up here.
Ahh, you don’t even know who I am, and yet you assume I am a man. Or maybe just anyone who disagrees with you is a dirty bastard/ son of a bitch/ misogynist. (Seems your opponents have no corner on hating / oppressing the opposite sex. )
Sexually insecure? You are the one with such a fragile ego that you must lash out at any perceived slight, spewing vulgarity and issuing threats of physical violence. Maybe the reason you hate Driscoll so much is that he’s a mirror image of you. Unable to deal constructively the opposite sex ,( or people you believe are the opposite sex) bullying, and righteously proud of your stance. Your life must be miserable…. give it a break and get some therapy.
No, you get some therapy, you insufferable asshole. I am telling the truth. The truth is ugly. And if you can’t handle that, that is your issue, not mine. Stop playing tone police, and get lost. I’ve been around here a lot than you have, and I’m not going anywhere. You keep your “bitch” opinions to yourself, mind your own business, and shut up. I don’t give a shit what you think of me; I will not back down from calling misogynists what they are. That goes for you, too, male or female.
I also noticed you didn’t have a response for all the people who defended me. Or perhaps you didn’t even read them. That says a lot about you. I civilly disagreed with vegas, because she civilly disagreed with me. The only people at the receiving end of my wrath are the very names you’re whining about. Anyway, I’m done feeding you, troll. Adios.
Does it matter, really? If you’re a woman, or transgendered, or completely asexual single-celled organism you can still be sexist against woman. We see this happening with racism all the time. And with crazy anti-women women like Phyllis Schalfy or whatever her name is.
But I guess you learned about genders through this PSA, eh?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3Pwl8jTLK8&feature=related
I knew someone who went to Mars Hill. She began to go to the church in the fall/winter of 2011. By spring 2012, she was married to a member. It seems like she had only known this man (a deacon, I believe) for a few months before they married, and it was rumored that one of the reasons they married so quickly was to keep him in the country because his visa was about to expire (Was that the only plan he considered, I wonder?). I also suspect that, because she was planning to take an official position in the church, they needed to get her under a male “head” as quickly as possible.
Are these kinds of quick courtships generally encouraged at Mars Hill?
Matthew and “Amy”,
thank you both so much for putting yourselves out there. My sense is that doing so can be quite scary in some ways. You are helping to gently warn people, and doubtless preventing lots of future suffering for some who will heed your warnings. You both rock!
So, this article is slander? Only to those who have drunk the Kool-Aid.
I became a Christian during the “Jesus People” days (1972). Shortly thereafter, the “Shepherding Movement” began (you can google it). This is a revival of that particular heresy, yet with a disturbing twist – the denigrating of women, particularly wives. Honestly, I don’t know how these guys call themselves “ministers” (the word means “servant”). Husbands are supposed to love their wives as Christ loves the church and gave Himself for it. What did Jesus do? He died for His bride. What are we as husbands to do? we are to die to ourselves and attend to our wives and their care.
“Christianity” in America, won’t sell anywhere else in the world; and is in a very dangerous place. If so-called pastors continue on this course, they may find that their “candlestick” removed…
Yes! I don’t understand how reformed doctrine can place so much emphasis on penal substitution and the “suffering servant” of Isaiah 53, and so much emphasis on the wife’s role in Ephesians 5 without realizing what a Christian husband is truly called to be.
[…] App DiscoveryUS Capitals for $500Education on the go: iPhone styleIlluminate BlogEXORCISM AT MARS HILL: ONE WOMAN’S STORY OF SEX, DEMONS, AND MARK DRISCOLL […]
And the Chrstians of this country are more concerned about Rob Bell?
Well of course they are. They (especially Calvinists) care more about having correct theology than about actually following Jesus. They worship Paul more closely then Jesus, so they can always keep women underfoot.
calvinists are the worst…self righteous sold out to their own “doctrine” which to them has more value than human lives. I’ve experienced calvinism & I’ll take my chances of burning in hell than believing that shit, because living “calvinism” was hell on earth for me.
It’s infinitely more comfortable to stay in the confines of codified boat. So much so that anything else feels frighteningly like uncontrollable chaos. Like out in the unpredictable waves, upon which Jesus is walking, surefooted and relaxed.
I nominate MPT as the Pastor Police seeing that that is exactly what American Evangelicism has needed for the past 30 years and very few have seemed interested in the thankless job of calling out those who give Jesus and His people a bad name. MPT, you make me proud to be an American. I mean that whole heartedly. Please keep standing up for Jesus’ love, grace, and His church.
Here, here!
I second the nomination. And I believe that.. what’s that, “Dr.” David Tee? Oh, he wants to forward the nomination.
You guys rock, seriously. I need to pay more attention to people like Katie and jasdye than the ones who piss me off. Much easier said than done, of course. But you people keep my faith in humanity alive on this site. Thanks, guys.
How do I say this without sounding creepy? Come to my facebook page.
You should post the last question and answer as the very first thing… it makes everything else a moot point. She’s not a Christian, she did not understand Spiritual truths because she is spiritually dead. Of course she will interpret anything Biiblical through unregenerate lenses and that IS the logical conclusion for all without God’s gift of faith. Namely, tyranny, abuse, etc.
Mark is not perfect by any means, and he is not silent about his imperfections. HE repents. What needs to be said about “Amy’s” experience is that no one can simply CHOOSE to be a Christian, a Christian is unconditionally chosen and what you see in her story is the outcome of one who is not of the Christian community. Mark and the rest are correct, continued repentance is the fruit of salvation and perseverance in the faith and a sign of being chosen. Her being ignored needs to be accurately categorized so the spin is removed. She was excommunicated, and according to Scripture no one can interact with her until she repents. This is the most loving act a Christian community can do for one of its members; it’s called Church discipline. It has nothing to do with bitterness or superiority.
She’s not a Christian and this is what not being a Christian looks like.
so…..basically what you are saying is that anyone who disagrees with the almighty pastor is deemed “spiritually dead”…yeah…right. 🙁 so you are saying those who do not kow tow to the pastor’s way of doing “religion” or his doctrine are on the road to the human bbq?
oh pity for those who dare to interpret the bible through a lens that does not agree with the pastor or the “man a gawd”..
what drivel! Vomit would taste better than what you are touting as the truth David.
bloody hell I am SOOOOOOOOOOO happy to have escaped this bullshit!
If this is what Christianity looks like, then I guess I’m not among the chosen either. WHOSE kingdom is being furthered by your comment?
So, non-Christians are SUPPOSED to get abused by the church? I wasn’t aware that Jesus, Paul, Peter, Mary or anybody else advocated or practiced that.
Seriously, what Bible are you all reading? I’d really like to know. If it’s that version of the Bible, keep it to yourselves and stop telling us to live according to it. I’ve counted the cost and built my foundation on the rock of Jesus, not whatever crusty god you serve (or that serves you).
My friend informs me that it’s “cOjones” not “cAjones.” A cajon is like a desk drawer. I’m more used to calling them “huevitos” myself, but I kind of like the idea of Jesus yelling at men to gather their drawers for courage.
David — I suspect you’re in a perpetual state of overdose on “doctrine” and simply can’t feel anymore.
He’s more machine than man now…
Holy crap, dude. David, seriously…is your last name Koresh?
It’s called empathy, Dave–and it’s a hell of a lot more useful and important than theology. You should try it.
teehee “unregenerate lenses” what a deliciously ridiculous mix of metaphors. Sounds kind of sci fi, somehow. David you’ve created the <a href="https://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&sugexp=eiatsh&ds=i&pq=unregenerate+lenses&cp=1&gs_id=p&xhr=t&q=%22unregenerate%20lenses%22&safe=off&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.,cf.osb&biw=1680&bih=949&wrapid=tljp134050395039322&aq=f&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=iw&authuser=0&ei=mXfmT9eNHMieiAfp47lZ" third such on the net . Congratulations.
oops. I messed up the html. If you could fix it, Matthew, that would be kewl =)
too bad they don’t let us use the emoticons because I’d insert the puking one here…..
Bullshit!
Amen!
How to undermine and defeat a Christian feminist in 10 easy steps.Steps 2-10 are all visibly and demonstrably demonstrated in demonstrating fashion in the comments section here.
https://wearestardustwearegolden.wordpress.com/2012/06/15/how-to-undermine-and-defeat-a-christian-feminist-in-10-easy-steps/
I find it peculiar that in Mark Driscoll’s recommended reference section on a “spiritual warfare trial” for a practical understanding the three books mentioned are FICTION and one is written as an homage to another.
MPT, I appreciate your bringing these stories to light, and I hope that Amy can find shalom in the truest sense of the word, but many of the comments made between (and to) other commenters were disturbing to read. Abusing abusers is still abuse, hating haters is still hating (and at least a couple of the hated weren’t even being haters in my opinion). We can call out, challenge, shame, and utterly denounce the abusers and haters without resorting to the reactionary name-calling so repeatedly and frivolously displayed in these comment threads. Even if these thoughts were primarily directed at MD, that would be one thing – but this thread has become venomous and hostile to anyone who doesn’t exactly agree with ____. Throwing the word “misogynist” at every commenter who dares to disagree or even simply to question does not help our cause – it only cheapens the word for those who truly deserve it. These things won’t change minds, friend, they serve only to polarize. Let’s discern intentional horribleness from honest ignorance and adjust our responses accordingly. Love to Amy, love to all who feel unloved and who have been hurt by broken men!
This. A thousand times this. Insults help no one…not Amy or Driscoll. The forums of World of Warcraft aren’t this bad, and gamers are known for their crudeness and complete inability to be kind.
I can’t believe MPT has allowed this “discussion” to keep going. While we blast Driscoll and Co., thinking we hold the righteous high ground, we’re just slowly stooping to his level.
This. A thousand times this.
Sorry for the double post…computer’s being weird.
This is absolutely gutting.Just want to say respect for MPT in the way that you’ve approached these stories with compassion and also given Driscoll and Mars Hill the chance to respond. Your approach is refreshing and starts a conversation rather than an argument.
Demon posessed pastor leading a cultlike church. Run people! Satan is not only in the catholic church! Have your own personal link with God and Jesus. But be very careful with organised religion especially when power and money is involved!
“Satan is not only in the catholic church!”. I’m seriously trying to figure out if you’re sincere or if your gently mocking.
must be one of those “the catholic church is mystery babylon mother of harlots & abominations!…” type of christian. a lot of protestant sects hate the catholics..not realizing all roads lead back to rome. & if I’m not mistaken their own precious king james version of the bible was from the catholic church…ok, an offshoot of the catholic church anyhow. 😉
This is idiocy at best and a sign of significant pastoral malpractice at worst.
The ability of religion to compel people to act against logic is an incredibly powerful thing. It can be used for good, as when people heroically risk their lives and well-being to help others. Here is an example of it being used for evil, forcing a woman to act against her own self-interest and mental health to conform to an anachronistic, barbaric understanding of gender roles, one that has no place in modern society. No rational argument could have compelled her to do so, but this ignorant hack apparently used the power of the pulpit and his own sacerdotal authority to do just that.
What she describes, and the work of this entire “biblical manhood/womanhood” movement, is the best example I can think of for the work of demons in the world. We don’t need Babylonian myths – fundamentalist seminaries produce all the demons we need.
I strongly suspect that escaping a toxic environment led by someone espousing barbaric superstitions and patriarchal nonsense as if they were gospel was the healthiest thing she could do for herself and her children. Perhaps if the “counselors” at the church had any actual pastoral or clinical competence, they would have helped her get the resources she needed to be able to break free of an unhealthy marriage without having to fracture her relationship with her kids (if that is in fact what happened).
This does not sound like leaving children behind:
“Do you feel as though you’ve recovered from this experience?
“Yes. But that took a long time. The abuse I experienced at Mars Hill had very damaging repercussions that lasted many, many years. Being shunned is one of the most difficult things I’ve ever had to go through. But I’m definitely a different, stronger person now because of it. I love my kids. They keep me alive and they adore me. They are such protective and compassionate people. And they are my world.”
Are you saying this statement is not true?
(In Washington State, it is not automatic that the woman gets custody of the children. If she could not show that the children would be in danger staying with the father, it would definitely be a shared arrangement. If she left her husband’s home without a place to stay, the courts here would be inclinded to say the children stay with their father for the stability–again, assuming she could not show the children were in immediate danger.)
Also, if you read the story, she did not claim to be sinless.
I have to ask, did you read the complete story? Are you aware of factual information that bears on this that makes this a fantasy on here part?
I have to say that I have been observing these comments from a distance. I have read the great hurt and pain as well as support for Mars Hill.
For those of you on here that keeps standing behind Drsicoll, I would encourage you to give this a read. I wrote a letter to you.
http://kevinolenick.wordpress.com/2012/06/24/dear-mars-hill-9/
non christians really dislike driscoll.
Many Christians really dislike Driscoll because of how he has changed the pure milk and the Living Water of the Gospel into bitter waters, unsuitable to drink. We dislike him because of how he misrepresents Jesus Christ to Christians and non Christians alike.
Some Christians really like Driscoll because they are completely clueless. They are duped into thinking that the tainted and skewed gospel Driscoll peddles has much to do with anything Jesus actually taught.
Driscoll is an excellent communicator and is able to hold the attention and move a crowd. This doesn’t make his message and his preaching true.
Hitler was also an excellent communitcator. But he deceived and misled and entire nation down a very bad road.
Please understand. I’m not saying that Driscoll is anything like Hitler except for his awe inspiring communications skills. All I’m saying is that communicating well does not make the message true.
Driscoll’s message is completely flawed and needs a major overhaul. Too many immature Christians with underdeveloped discernment skills are being led down a very destructive road. They finally get it once they have been thrown under the bus.
[…] Now we have another story that has come out. A story about an artist whom Pastor Mark performed an exorcism on because he felt there were sexual demons in her. You can read her story here.http://matthewpaulturner.net/jesus-needs-new-pr/exorcism-at-mars-hill-one-womans-story/ […]
This is incredibly sad. “Amy”, I wish you the best in your future.
Ugh. Just . . . ugh.
I don’t get it, good people of Seattle. There’s plenty of outrage on this blog; is there outrage in one of America’s famously liberal cities over the misogyny and ridiculousness of this man and his church? Do other Seattle pastors call Mars Hill out on their bullshit publicly, do other writers and publications within the city cover these stories and Driscoll in general? I know Dan Savage has done some decent take-downs on The Stranger, and I know that ultimately Mars Hill has the right to exist and people have the right to continue to be controlled and manipulated by this institution under our freedom of religion. But The Seattle Times, for example, has no mention of this story and their only coverage of Driscoll is a benign interview with him and Grace about Driscoll’s marriage book, which I find to be pretty disappointing given the size, scope and influence of Mars Hill in Seattle.
I completely comment Matthew for continuing to get these stories out there and circulating on the Internet, which does indeed preserve everything for eternity. 😀
My guess is that if Mars Hills has deep pockets…people will be hesitant to speak out….not that that is an excuse….
I still shake my head in disbelief that MH has a publicity Dept. That tells you all you need to know right there.
[…] }()); Well, the latest internet pile-on for Mark Driscoll is beginning. It starts at Jesus Needs New Pr, with Matthew Paul Turner’s interview of a woman who attended Mars Hill and received marital […]
First rule of Mark Driscoll Club…
A sad story. “Amy” did not experience true Christianity. She experienced a twisted, perverted male dominated version of Christianity where the men are not required to love their wives as Christ loved the church, his body.
Amy’s experience is true of many fundamentalist churches. Women who voice concerns about their marriages are not taken seriously but told to submit. But the Apostle called upon women to “respect” their husbands – not to become doormats.
Amy, we hear you and we are not sweeping your story under the rug. God wants a relationship with you built on trust and mutual respect. What you experienced at Mars Hill was not true Christianity.
hhhhmmmmmm so where is the true christianity tm? oh forget it….The no true scotsman….yeah whatever……
[…] Another Mars Hill (Seattle) horror story. This one describes an exorcism. There’s no happy ending: […]
[…] EXORCISM AT MARS HILL: ONE WOMAN’S STORY OF SEX, DEMONS, AND MARK DRISCOLL : ✪ MATTHEW PAUL TURN… No, it isn't slander. It's the truth. I know you want everyone to play nice and never disagree on anything, but the fact is, Mark is a jerk and a misogynist of the highest proportions. Wake up, get yo… […]
I didn’t have time to read every comment so if I am being redundant, I apologize. +What is clear is that Driscoll had an opportunity to share Jesus’ love with ‘Amy’ and he blew it. It was more important to him to make sure she was controlled then that she was loved. By her own words she is not a Christian and may never become one now. We are accountable to those in our circle of influence to share God’s love or we can push them away from God. I pray that ‘Amy’ will somehow come to know Jesus in a personal way, in spite of her MH experience.
[…] and takes great caution to express anger and action toward injustice and evil. I think about the latest story coming out of a megachurch about a spiritual abuse and misogyny that is only headed because the pastor has an unquestioned […]
[…] going to touch on this tomorrow, but if you haven’t read this. There was a controversial interview about a lady who had an “exorcism” performed on […]