Yesterday’s statement from TVC was a mouthful, a carefully written, meticulously worded, and likely meticulously reworded mouthful. (Read it here.)
It was kind. Or maybe it was just nice. Either way, its tone wasn’t terrible. That much I’ll give them. But honestly, most of their communication toward Karen was presented with what can be perceived as kindness.
And I’ll give them this, too: it seemed to be humbly expressed.
But humbly expressed what is still what; it just requires one to actually ask what, process the what, and then ask again what.
So, now that I’ve lived with the response for several hours, I must ask: WHAT?!
I mean, first of all: WHAT were the reasons for offering an apology?
Sure, they offered a humbly presented apology to Karen, but they actually don’t apologize for anything that has, for the last 5 months, been a thorn in Karen’s side.
Rather than apologizing for acting like jackasses, they apologized for not presenting their jackassery with greater clarity.
Rather than apologizing for treating a victim whose life was just turned upside down with dignity and equality, they apologized for not offering a clearer perspective regarding what they deem acceptable and unacceptable divorce. How many times must one tell the elders at TVC that Karen wasn’t getting a divorce. She was getting an annulment. There’s a difference. A big difference.
Rather than apologizing for spiritually and emotionally harassing her for the last 5 months, they apologized for not “leading her toward repentance”! What the hell? I mean, seriously friends, what on earth does Karen have to apologize about? For not wanting to be married to a man who is sexually attracted to 4-year-old girls? For not falling in line and following their advice?
DING. DING. DING.
That’s why TVC believes she should repent. Because she didn’t follow protocol. Because she dared to challenge TVC’s male-led religious establishment. Because she was strong. Because she stood her ground. Because she didn’t submit.
And they blame themselves for all of that, because they didn’t “lead her” correctly.
What?
That’s not why you should be sorry, TVC. Karen didn’t need you to apologize for any of those things.
People in your church might have. Your friends in high positions might have liked hearing that. But Karen, the reason why you issued that statement–she didn’t need to hear any of it.
Since there seems to be some confusion as to what you did wrong here, let me offer a few reasons as to why you SHOULD apologize to Karen.
You need to apologize for harboring, protecting Jordan and making Karen feel like the perpetrator.
You need to apologize for all of the misogynistic language that you used in your Jesusy-sweet communication to Karen.
You need to apologize for acting like jerks regarding Karen’s desire to seek an annulment. Those are my words. Not hers.
You need to apologize for silencing Karen’s story and for turning her into the enemy because she believed the church needed to know the full scope of Jordan’s confession…
You need to apologize for even thinking about putting her through that godawful church discipline process.
You need to apologize for all that b.s. you proclaimed about Karen in the “membership update” on May 23… I mean, seriously, you defamed her in front of your 6000+ members… and you didn’t apologize for that…
She didn’t need you to be better leaders.
She didn’t need you to clarify your theology.
She didn’t need you to be more prepared.
She didn’t need you to express a pseudo apology using the anonymous pronouns “we” and “them”….
The truth is, she didn’t need you.
Which was the problem from the beginning. Her non need of you scraped against your spiritual maleness.
And yet, the more you tried to force her submit to your authority, the more you made her excruciating circumstance more excruciating.
But then again, that apology really wasn’t an apology to Karen was it, TVC? It was a public relations move to calm down the members of your church, right? Am I close? Just a little too close…
Again, kudos to TVC for being kind and seemingly humble.
But you put a good woman who really loves God and trusted you guys through hell. I mean, seriously, think about it… Karen was evangelizing Jesus in East Asia, all alone without family and good friends when she found out her husband and fellow missionary was a pedophile…
And what did you do? You put her through hell. She’d already been there. But you made her ride the hell coaster one more time…
And you didn’t apologize for that… You didn’t apologize for that.
And so, sure, your statement was kind/nice and perhaps humble. But it completely missed the point.
But you knew that already.
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“Rather than apologizing for acting like jackasses, they apologized for not presenting their jackassery with greater clarity.” – Yep, that’s what I saw in that “apology”.
EXACTLY. They never said it was wrong of them to pretend they get to decide what reasons for marital annulment are acceptable. They never said it was wrong of them to try and force a wife who felt very unsafe and was worried that her husband was harming children to go back to him until they said it was OK to leave. What they said was that they were sorry they weren’t clearer with her about what they perceived the grounds for annulment might be… I actually disagree. They were quite clear…that they weren’t concerned with Karen’s well-being at all.
Must be nice to be perfect.
Why is it that before the apology people not even involved in the situation were demanding an apology and then when it is presented it’s the”wrong kind” of apology?? Damage control? Why is it that the apology is labeled damage control? Is it so hard to believe that a governing group of elders could collectively see their wrong and fall at the feet of Father in repentence then make amends?? The letter posted was to the church. it was a blanket letter to their church. There was no need to put details of the matter in it or the apology to the woman hurt. They stated more than once that apologies were made directly to her. What they said to her in person is no one’s business. Why is is that people in positions of church authority are expected to NEVER make a mistake?? Pastor Chandler admits regularly his humanness and how he still stumbles, but he also shares how it brings him back to the Lord in repentence. I dug a round and got an understanding of this situaion (old now, but still) and my heart hurts for this woman. I would want a divorce too; I believe she did the right thing! but an annulment is still a divorce……its just a different way to say it.
Amen. Thank you for writing this.
I’m beginning to learn first hand that joining a mega church is like going to a timeshare presentation with the plan to take the free shit and leave and then ten years later you’re like, “Fuuuuuuuck! Why am I still paying $200 a month for this time share?”
I’d rather have a Time Share than pay a church’s mortgage.
misogynistic jackassery…that about sums it up nicely!
Totally agree. Thank you.
Your first post was good and seemed to call the cards on the table. This one seems ill-spirited and attention-seeking in my opinion.
Calling Jackassery, Jackassery is not “ill-spirited and attention-seeking”
It is to call the cards on the table.
Stick around this blog and you can be guaranteed to see some jackassery behavior.
Stick around ANY blog and sooner or later you WILL.
What a mess. Rather than a press release, why not just have someone set up a meeting over coffee– you know, apologize face-to-face rather than through the so-called media?
This whole thing is gotcha, gotcha back, gotcha harder, nu-uh I gotcha worse. People and organizations need to know better than to respond to this stuff publicly… when you eff up… show up, make it right, and make the changes needed. As Mars Hill learned… when you try to deal with it in public you end up getting destroyed from the outside in.
The danger of a face-to-face meeting with a victim by those whose trust she sought – continued victimization by the church and the spiritual abusers here. As was mentioned in both the article and several replies – this apology was to try and save face within the congregation, not any attempt to apologize to the victim.
How do you ‘apologize’ to the children who were in those criminal porn websites??? I didn’t find the piece to be ill-spirited..but what if it were. Isn’t it high time so-called ‘civilized’ ppl get ill-spirited towards child predators?
we are a nation of cowards & everyday it is more & more evident as it relates to protecting children vs protecting images, churches and talking heads.
Absolutely on the mark. Ownership/viewing child pornography is a crime. There is always a child victim when it i child pornography. It sickens me that the leadership and the members of that church didn’t report that criminal and instead chose to attack the innocent woman.
I think the author is pretty on point in his explanation. It certainly fits with my experiences in Acts29 and their “church discipline” that they tried to enact on my wife and I. We’re happy to see that they did release that statement and see they failed her. I just wonder if that would have ever been done if there wasn’t such a big public outcry.
But they didn’t see that they failed her. They saw that they failed to make it sound sweeter. Sugar coating failure.
Hi Paul,
Just want to (a) say hello, (b) agree with you, and (c) share that my family and I were also “discipline” by our former Acts 29 church.
Have you shared your story anywhere? My wife and I have considered writing up an account of our experience of abuse in Acts 29, but we aren’t sure how we want to proceed. Just curious how you and your wife handled it.
This is one of those times where I feel like a flaming liberal…which is not how I view myself. Anyhow, can I humbly offer an important caution?
There is a difference between condemning child abuse and stigmatizing pedophilia. If we continue force pedophiles into the closet, we starve them of the ability to cope and increase the odds of abuse occurring. There are precious few resources for pedophiles to receive the help and support that ultimately keeps kids safe.
To be absolutely clear, I am NOT excusing Jordan’s use of child pornography. That crosses the line into being an offender. I am trying to mitigate the harm of pedophilia by loving those afflicted and supporting their sexier to be non-offenders.
Rather…that is….”and supporting their DESIRE to be non-offenders.” *shakes fist at autocorrecting iPad*.
Please, please listen to this: http://m.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/522/tarred-and-feathered?act=2#act-2
What does it mean to love a person with pedophilia? How does one know at which point they are telling the truth, since they are pathological liars? When one doesn’t know the truth about their lives, how does one work with them?
What is required for such a person to walk the path of non-offense?
A person with pedophilia carries a terrible burden. The path to redemption is life-long and very difficult, and very few of them are willing to take it. How long will support be required? How many people will it take? What does support mean, when they don’t want to take the path, even though they say they do?
What if they want to walk that path only half the time? They are very dangerous. One “mistake” will ruin a child’s life. What does a person with pedophilia need to do when he falls? What does confession, repentance look like for a compulsive liar? What does restitution look like?
The children who are abused by the pedophile are the central issue, and that must remain the focus for the pedophile. How do the supporters make sure of it?
The “liberals” I know (what does “flaming” mean?) take these issues far more seriously than does the Evangelical church. They are generally all for the victim and want the pedophile jailed.
Hi Patrice –
You’re going to have to give me some citation to support your claims that people who suffer from pedophilia are 1) pathological liars, 2) very dangerous. How do we love these people? Let’s start by not making ignorant statements. The fact is we know little about the magnitude of this problem or the behavior of those afflicted because of the understandable stigma.
I need to be crystal clear because too many people jump to wrong conclusions: childhood sexual abuse is never, ever tolerable in any form or fashion – it is a tragedy of the worst order.
In addition to that understanding, I’ve come to realize that people who suffer from pedophilia are completely unable to confess their problem and therefore can’t receive treatment. Society has an interest in helping non-offender pedophiles remain non-offenders.
I am making ignorant statements. Huh.
You are correct that the Evangelical church knows “little about the magnitude of this problem or the behavior of those afflicted because of the understandable stigma”. There is more info in the field of psychology, but too many Evangelicals have antagonism for that field. I have no books to offer, but suggest you peruse the internet–you’ll find many sources and they’ll lead you to some books, the better studies, the more promising treatments. Persevere. There are some answers to your questions out there, or at least directions to take.
I never finished my own research on it because I was coming at it from the opposite direction. As someone who had been sexually abused as a child, I wanted a general understanding of what was wrong inside someone that would cause them to do such.
You must have done some research since you believe that people with pedophilia are unable to confess their problem and thus can’t receive treatment. That is a more generalized and blanket statement than I’d make. But look, if they are unable to confess, what do you think they do when people ask about it? How do we make the full truth front and center?
I completely agree that society has an interest in helping non-offender pedophiles remain so. It is paramount! These sufferers have an extra-ordinarily long hard road, and they are to be respected when they face the task and remain faithful to it. It cannot be done alone.
Society also has a vital interest in containing those who do offend. Sexually abusing a child causes life-long damage to that person.Their actions don’t murder a child but smash their young psyches so that they grow up with the emotional/spiritual equivalency of a disabling car crash. That is why pedophiles are dangerous; their crime doesn’t kill but maims.
There are treatment theories and centers for pedophiles, yes? Treatment requires both consistent compassion and an intractable devotion to full truth and faithful routines/limitations/disciplines. All treatments are intensive so I know that Jordan is not getting even close to what he needs to remain non-offensive if he started with once/week therapy from an non-expert, and then it went down to every other week. I have no idea what he is getting now, but I do know that Biblical counseling is completely inadequate, and that Village Church leadership is clueless. They combine arrogance with ignorance and that means failure. Makes me very very sad.
We should not forgive/forget before the full truth is faced. We should not condemn people merely for carrying such an awful burden. We should not ignore the profound damage they cause when they act out. And the latter, the children, remain first because they are the vulnerable innocent who carry the damage.
Whatever your concerns about this, David, I wish you success in your endeavors. May God be with you.
David S – where is your citation that “people who suffer from pedophilia are completely unable to confess their problem and therefore can’t receive treatment?” They can confess if they choose to. They can seek treatment if they choose to. Yes, it absolutely is a difficult road to more socially acceptable behavior. But it is possible. The pedophile chronically lies to themselves and others around them by saying to themselves and their victims that sex abuse is acceptable.
This church is like most Christian fundamentalist and conservative evangelical churches. It sucks the “big one,” and now the whole world knows about it and is never going to let this church or its leadership live this down. Like the author of this article, I saw nothing that indicated real sorrow or repentance. What I did see was the typical “Beltway Bandit” bullshit you see in Washington, D.C. In other words, this letter of apology was nothing but a piece of cleverly phrased “bureaucratic bullshit” (probably with the church attorney in on the writing of it).
Now. Watch what happens next. Karen Root will write a best-selling book on what really happened, make several million bucks, and the church will sue her to get part of the royalties—-using something in their so-called “covenant contract” as the basis for it.
Karen Root. If you read this comment, visit the “Flee from Christian Fundamentalism” blog, and we can show you how to find a church that loves its members rather than abuses them with church contracts, discipline committees, and other such crap. The link is as follows:
https://faith17983.wordpress.com/
Karen’s last name is Hinkley. Root is Jordan’s name. Karen has had her fraudulent marriage annulled, and using her own name is the appropriate, respectful way to address her.
(This may sound nit-picky, but names matter and words wound)
I agree with you 100%. But I also think that there is room to acknowledge that this wasn’t their apology to Karen. We don’t know what their personal apology will be.The TVC statement was an apology to the public and a recognition of error. I believe that they specifically stated that they would be contacting specific people they hurt to give more detailed apologies. Frankly, it’s not my business to hear or know the inner details of how TVC apologizes personally to Karen unless Karen herself chooses to make it public. I sincerely hope that their personal apology to her includes those statements that you wrote, but I will not blast them because they didn’t make them public for me to read.
I so disagree with the optimistic assumption that their person apology will be different or better. TVC’s indictment of Karen was incredibly public: sent to 6000 Covenent Members. Only an equally public apology would be appropriate. What you’re implying as acceptable is “False accusation headlines newspaper, retraction on page 28.”
I agree with Stan. They sent letters to all of their members. They are a very public organization. Their failure and damage is widespread.
Excellent! Well worded!
I don’t care what your opinion is of if TVC was truly humble and sincere or not. First, you don’t really know. You make several assumptions you can’t possibly know. You are judging intent which is an error on your part. Now let’s see if you’ll repent of that. I doubt it. Second, what does Karen think? That’s whose opinion matters, not yours. Third, name one time in history when any conflict has been handled pristinely. You won’t find one.
Your bias shines through so clearly. I highly doubt TVC could have done anything to appease you. Thankfully they don’t need to appease you.
Disclaimeres: I have never attended TVC or supported it financially. I find that their refusal to “accept her resignation” was preposterous. I also don’t believe it is up to a church to tell someone they can or can’t divorce, annul etc. I have no opinion on how they handled informing people about Jordan’s past because I’m not an expert. I find their handling of this overall was definitely lacking to say the least. Point? I’m not an apologist for them. And to me, you reek of anti-TVC bias. Maybe you could reword much of what you wrote and make it palatable but putting, “IN MY OPINION….” in front of your God like assertions.
Shut up!
I think most of us assumed and expected that Matt would be sharing his own opinion in this post. And I think its kind of foolish to expect anything else, or to be scandalized by the absence of a disclaimer spelling that out. This here is a blog, sir.
David wrote, “…what does Karen think? That’s whose opinion matters, not yours.” Well, yes, so check Watch Keep, where Karen wrote exactly what she thought by examining the accuracies, evasions, and misleading aspects of the apology. It is in parallel with what Matthew wrote.
Also, it would be good for you to learn how to read material meant for public consumption. It will serve you in good stead, even for deciding such things as who to vote for in elections. The way things are said, what is/isn’t said, these reveal a great deal. PR is a thriving industry in this country, and this apology is a public relations document. It was not sent to Karen.
Bias is an odd accusation. Have you read all the documentation available in this situation? I’m fairly certain you haven’t, or you would have known that Karen already gave her opinion. But Matthew has, and it exposes an abusive path taken by Village Church. It makes sense that Matthew would evaluate a PR apology doc in light of that.
These things being the case, and since you have neither the background info nor the critical expertise to come to a conclusion, it is you who are engaging in baseless bias; with rage, too, even accusing Matt of non- repentance for umm, having an opinion that is unlike yours.
So, yah. Good luck with that.
I believe Karen is now refusing to talk to actual media because she’s overwhelmed & it’s taken a toll on her. So we actually don’t know how she feels now or if she’s even talked to tvc. And bloggers are full of speculation, accusations & innuendo. This whole thing is.
I pray Karen leaves watchkeep behind – realizes a lot of people have used her pain for their own gain. That she unplugs from this and begins the real healing process.,
Oh for God’s sake. Do you work for The Village Church? Are you a Matt Chandler fangirl? Because that’s what they would say. Seriously, up until WatchKeep and The Wartburg Watch brought this to the fore, TVC was in the driver’s seat and they were driving Karen through defamation, invasion of privacy and intentional infliction of emotional distress (among other torts). Seriously, I can understand Karen being overwhelmed–but I don’t think it was caused by the bloggers. It started on February 11, 2015, when TVC refused to accept Karen’s resignation, objected to her getting an annulment, and continued to call her a member after she resigned. (Although, interestingly enough, even though they called her a “covenant member” they didn’t bother to e-mail her that email from last week. Wonder why?)
Yep. Karen and I exchanged emails yesterday. She’s taking a step back, which I think is smart…
Ladybird, that’s a slithery response.
Yes, I also heard that *after* her extended written response to the apology (which is the topic of this OP and which is what David’s comment addressed), she has become very very weary. Oh my lord, I am sure she is, after fighting all the months of nastiness laid on her by her so-called husband and then church! Mercy!
Your attempt to disagree about the subject by pointing to something afterwards is juvenile.
Your questionable motives would become more genuinely compassionate by conceding that she can make her own decision about whether Watch Keep is helpful to her or not, as she has done regarding her un-husband, and also Village Church.
I too pray for her healing. So let’s do it together, without foisting our ideas of “what it should look like” onto God. Let’s ask that she will get the kind of rest she truly needs, which God knows and she knows. Let’s pray that His love will be made extra-clear to her, so that she will understand down to the bottom of her toes, that she is indeed well-loved and valued by the Person who matters most, in spite of all recent opinion/treatment to the contrary by the many who say they also follow this God.
Offering honest, not faux, compassion for Karen means we are truly interested in her healing.
Well said, MPT. And I agree. We do not know people’s motives or intentions. All we can do is judge actions and words. These words are lacking substance and specificity in repentance. They lack “the what” needed to demonstrate a true effort at rectifying the wrong as you so aptly write. Yes, it seems packaged better in kindness/niceness and possibly some humility. However, apologizing for not being prepared to lecture Karen on practical theology is NOT an apology for exactly what they DID do that was hurtful and wrong.
I remain concerned about the lack of awareness or willingness on their part to divest themselves of illicit power. It is not healthy to grasp for power over marriages like they are doing. They are not God. Plus, the whole covenant discussion is absurd. Would we view this the same way if the issues were changed slightly? Say a church had its members sign a covenant where they agreed to give elders a say in how many kids they had? Would we then support that church leadership when a member refused to have ten kids because it would endanger them? I hope not. Yes, a covenant was signed. But do we think this is godly or healthy to give such power to others. Is it not better to build up mature Christians and entrust them to being led by the Holy Spirit as the Apostle Paul did? We are not saved by church covenants after all. We are saved by Christ and empowered by the Holy Spirit.
“Which was the problem from the beginning. Her non need of you scraped against your spiritual maleness.” Wow…One of the best things I’ve read in a few months. And a great description of what’s really at the bottom of a lot of what some church leaders feel is sinful.
Yes, it always points back to Eve and all of us evil and mentally sick females. :/
Yeah, we have Double X Chromosome Syndrome (aka, being born a woman).
Mullah Omar and the Caliph of ISIS would agree.
Church leadership/authority/influence isn’t inherently a bad thing… but in a mega-church, it seems there’s no possible way it can be done with the level of intimate assent and personal connection that it requires. A lot of what was written about it was done keeping in mind that these were not mega-churches of the 21st Century deploying them at a corporate level. These were intimate gatherings of close friends who knew each other and wanted the best for each other. It was less like a company and more like a family. Churches should ask themselves whether their stances make them look more like First Century Rome or the Early Church.
The biggest “What?” I have is “What business of this is yours?” Are you a member of Village Church? Or an arm-chair, Monday morning quarterback offering your pot-shot criticisms from afar?
“What business of this is yours?”
Actually, Jesus told a great story to answer that. When, after telling people that we are to love our neighbor as ourselves, a cranky legalist asked him, “Yeah, but who is my neighbor?” And Jesus told the famous story of the Good Samaritan, ending it with “Go and do likewise.”
So Jesus himself tells you that it is the “business” of all who would follow him to help anyone who’s been trashed and left lying on the road. But in our current rendition of the tale, not only did believers do the trashing of a vulnerable and hurting human, they are now spinning word webs to cover their naked butts.
Thank God that Karen has good Samaritans in her life. The “watch bloggers” have been among them.
Who are you in this tale?
I agree with you! I have until now watched Matt Chandler multiple times – but I must admit I have a weird feeling now. I do not like the way they do covenant fellowship, and I have lost a lot of respect for him and TVC, even though he preaches very well. That elders take control over your life when you actually are free to annul a marriage biblically, is just sick. I can’t imagine the pain Karen must go through, my prayers are with her and other members of TVC who should be under control and manipulation.
To David Schultz and Bill: it IS my business when such men who claim to be Christian do things that are very non-Christ-like. Anyone to steps up to the microphone (or any media) better be prepared for criticism. It is my duty to God, and frankly to the world, to protect the truth.
Thank you! But interestingly they are male, huh?! Defending that male bunch from TVC – instead of showing a heart for the children, and for Karen of course!
I don’t know, man. Starting to wonder if you’re enjoying the blog numbers & the resulting $ that is coming with this one! Loved the apology, & the heart behind it. That displays a church I’d gladly plug into. But enjoy selling more books!
Word.
You and Shannan are free to go to TVC and sign the membership covenant and turn your lives over to the elders of TVC. Enjoy your confinement and bound conscience. I’ll take my freedom in Christ.
I have friends that attend there, & others that work there – there is GREAT “freedom in Christ” in Village Church… the “strict”, fundy church some on here seem to think they are – that couldn’t be further from the truth. I can’t stand that stuff – I was raised an Atheist, & became a Christian through the back door – slowly – by means of liberalism (my “evangelical” was Jurgen Moltmann)… though now an Evangelical, I’ve a critical eye, & an open mind… what I know of the members & staff at Village are people who love Jesus, love people, & serve both with all their hearts. Life is available there.
Shannon, I’d take issue with your claim to have “a critical eye.”
MPT, and many commenters here, offer a critical reading of TVC’s “apology.”
Your reading appears to have been somewhat superficial and not very critical (in the true sense of the word) at all.
To be fair, I must concede that the tactics and language used by TVC in their “apology” are extremely manipulative and effective, if one is not already familiar and/or experienced with such things.
I left TVC 2 1/2 years ago because of Matt Chandler. Too many “jokes” about my political party. I gave him 3 chances – after strike 3, he was out. I did not feel welcomed at TVC and I emailed the church about it. They responded but I decided to move on to another church.
Oh this is disgusting. I doubt MPT brings in the kind of money that TVC pulls in of a weekend–nearly a million dollars spread across its campuses. Y’all just don’t want to confront the fact that TVC acted abominably. It deserves all the criticism it is getting. Let me list the ways:
1) It’s clinging to its covenant for dear life. (Covenant-mentioned 4 times in the apology. Jesus-mentioned twice.)
2) The “apology” insinuated Karen had sinned. No she had not. She was legally entitled to an annulment for the fraud on here marriage and TVC would have kept her from that. Time was of the essence.
3) The church really didn’t do anything wrong. It didn’t tell people that Justin Root was a pedophile for THREE MONTHS and it only became a problem when the word got around. Then restrictions had to be “indefinitely” put in place. So much for caring for the children, eh?
4) The last paragraph states:
“In all of this, we are deeply grieved by the way this situation has brought reproach to the name of Jesus. Our hearts are heavy and broken over the things that have been said about our good and faithful God.”
Oh no you don’t. That really should say, “In all of this we are deeply grieved that OUR ACTIONS brought reproach to the name of Jesus.” You’re not going to blame those of us who pushed at you to apologize (which you really haven’t done). TVC IS THE PROBLEM. Again, it should read, “Our hearts are heavy and broken over the things that have been said REGARDING OUR ACTIONS IN REPRESENTING our good and faithful God.” Same criticism applies.
This crap was written by a spinmeister. There’s no apology to it. TVC hasn’t changed its mind in the least. It still thinks Karen was wrong for wanting an annulment. It is unhappy about bloggers and others who pushed this into public. It wishes it could just use its covenant as a hammer to coerce people into behavior it wants. IT DOESN’T CARE about the little person, only about its fame, and certainly TVC doesn’t care about Jesus.
TVC, if you’re reading this, you have my name and phone number. You still haven’t called or e-mailed me. But I’ll tell you this in advance, you’ve made it clear why I’m a Done as far as churches go.
Do you see a lot of advertisements on this site, Shannon? What a complete dick thing to say. Do you do your worship pastoring for free? You just grossed me right out, dude.
@theboeskool – are you MPT’s mom? And no, I don’t USUALLY do it for free (though, much of it I have & do) – however I do make so little money that under Obama-care last year my family’s health insurance cost 12 cents for the whole year – you do the math. I’m honestly not sure why any of that is relevant, though? Read my response to MPT below, & maybe you’ll understand. I like him – I like his books – I like his blog. Knowing how the world of publishing/blogging works, this post felt “below him”, honestly. I’d hate to see him be “that guy”.
I know, man! I’m getting filthy rich from all this drama.
So far, I’ve made $52.67 from Google ads this week.
All the stress, time, and mean comments are gonna feel so worth it when that $$$ drops into my bank account 60 – 90 days from now.
Moreover, I have sold 8 children’s book this week, so that’s cool too.
All included, I’ve grossed a grand total of $137.67.
I’m saving up for a new bandsaw. But before I spend it, I’ll definitely roll around in its glory.
I own more than one of your books, & any publisher will tell you the primary way of building an audience as an author these days is via blogging. Finding an emotion-driven topic, & making it spin IS how an author makes money these days. I know it because half of the sales of my first CD most likely came from the fact that I accidentally “broke” Louis Giglio’s church plant, PASSION CITY CHURCH – it was a hot button issue that pulled 20 times the traffic I normally got, & those subscribers all listened. But that wasn’t my intent – I blogged about it thinking it was public knowledge – my intent was not to “leak” anything. I understood your original post – I really appreciated your follow-up… but THIS ONE… just felt like someone trying to sell another book. And yeah, I’ll probably buy the next one, too. Sometimes the mirror just needs to be held up.
Re-read my original response. I suppose it could sting. Just FBed you, too, but I am sorry if that was jerk-ish. I offer you recompense in my other message – check FB.
Wow. But it was worth it for MPT’s reply. Just wow, bro.
After reading the first article in this series, I was preparing to write a lengthy comment. That is, until I saw the link to this follow-up piece and took a few minutes to read it. You pretty much nailed it. Chandler and TVC elders have thus far offered damage control that some may interpret as being intended primarily for their congregation. However, they state their real reason plainly in their own email.
“Given the nature of the situation with Jordan and Karen, we also want you to be prepared for the potential of many media stories about our church to be published over the next several days. We are aware of this likely outcome and will not address members or former members specifically in any communication since we do not release this information to the public.”
They are worried about the coming media stories and the fallout from them. Sadly, their concern with public relations continues to outweigh their first responsibility to their congregation. Folks, ministers of the gospel are in the people business, or at least supposed to be.
My prayer is that they actually do offer a proper apology to Karen and those they against whom they have sinned. If the story with Karen Hinkley is only a sample of the kinds of situations they need to apologize for, there are some other hurting people out there that need our prayers!
Spot on, Chris.
I too noticed that TVC explicitly stated that their reason for issuing an apology was to “get ahead” of the coming PR crisis (to paraphrase using common PR terminology).
Make no mistake – this “apology” was carefully crafted using input from both the PR world and the legal world.
+1
Thank you for writing this, MPT.
I have no affiliation with TVC and doubt that I will have. My concern is to Karen, the children and other people in the church who have been hurt but now will refrain to speak because of the mistreatment to Karen. Who needs to have such an ordeal? If you are in that church, or should I say cult, run as quick as you can!
Real men know how to apologize–a face-to-face apology with Karen and her lawyers would have been optimal followed with public (specific) confession before the congregation with a full explanation of how their attitudes and actions did personal harm to Karen. Followed by resignation–Rise up, O Men of God!
Right on, Rick.
One of the greatest ironies – and tragedies – of this hyper-masculine Complementarian crowd is that they have produced so many high-profile instances of abusing women, and so many high-profile instances of church leaders failing to take a stand and instead cowering in fear and/or insecurity.
I agree, it was absolutely a PR “clean up”…but this is like an oil spill that affects so many more lives than just Karen. This reminds me of the oil spill we have now in So Cal…”We’re sorry there’s a spill” but they don’t show up to clean the shores and volunteers are forced away while the oil spreads across the south land beaches.
I hope she laughed when she read their email..sadly though.. her heart probably broke again and again.
Karen, you’ll be okay… life gets better.
His crime affects all of the children he viewed (and possibly abused). TVC has a much bigger apology they need to give.
Well stated. When I read the apology in light of the whole situation it is a move to placate two crowds with one missive. Placate the entire Christian blogosphere by the fact it was called an apology but reinforce the fact that there is theology and there is rules. (Even though they are obviously really bad at enforcing the rules with love and grace) Which begs the question why so many rules? Why have a covenant in the first place? Having been spiritually abused in a couple churches it was always with the pretext “we love you BUT rules are rules”.
Thank you, Matthew. This hits the spot.
The bible gives the permission for divorce in the case of adultery, (which pedophilia is an extreme case of). However the elders of the Village historically does not. They denied me, and mine was an extreme circumstance as well. I was also disciplined for submitting to my adulterous ex-wife’s demand for divorce. I don’t want to be any more detailed than that, as God’s led me back to the church and I hope to work out my situation on a Matthew 18 basis the best I can, but I will say that this sort of thing is not a one time mistake by the church. I hope they look hard into how they approach spouses who’ve been severely sinned against. The Matthew 18 thing is hard because it’s a mega church. That said, if anyone from the church would like talk to me, please do. Jonny Carroll. Nearly all the pastors in Denton know me.
I’m sorry, Johnny. That sucks. I don’t know why a small group of 21st cent American guys think they can enforce tighter rules than were established in an ancient patriarchal society. Especially considering what Jesus said.
I tend to think it is power-hunger, but honestly, I have no idea. Whatever it is, it is damaging and downright stupid.
I wish you well in your endeavors to talk with them. May your voice be heard.
Jonny,
Thank you for sharing your story. I think that in a situation like this, it is very helpful for other victims to speak out. Ultimately, that is really the only way for change to take place. I am so sorry to hear about the painful experience that you have been through, both regarding your marriage and also regarding how your pastors handled it.
I hope and pray that your attempts at dialogue with leadership will go well. If things do not go well, I want to encourage you that you are not alone, and that there are online communities of folks who want to love you and support you. I personally have found The Wartburg Watch to be especially helpful in my own journey of recovery and healing after being abused by an Acts 29 church.
What Matthew Paul Turner says they said:
Rather than apologizing for spiritually and emotionally harassing her for the last 5 months, they apologized for not “leading her toward repentance”! What the hell?
What they actually said:
“We did not lead Karen and the church to a place conducive to peace, repentance and healing.”
Misrepresent much?
Yes, but they didn’t specify who was supposed to do the repenting. Did they mean “the church” or Karen? And repent of what, specifically? This line from their statement is so vague it really says nothing at all.
(1) I pretty much agree with you, Mr. Turner, except for your claim that the “apology” seemed “humble.” I actually read it to be fairly defiant and arrogant. That is, TVC took great pains to note that they will not be changing any of the doctrines or policies that led them to abuse Ms. Hinkley in the first place, and in one instance they even implied that they will make their policies *more* strict (i.e. their insinuation that they may be adding annulment to the divorce clause in the membership agreement).
(2) I really hope that this tragic situation will become a catalyst for more people to speak out about the dysfunctional DNA of the Acts 29 network. Chandler and Acts 29 booted Driscoll and Mars Hill Church with the hope of finally distancing themselves from their creator, but that was merely a symbolic action. It did nothing to change or alter in any way the fundamentally dysfunctional and dangerous DNA of Acts 29 itself.
My family and I were abused by our former Acts 29 church. As with Ms. Hinkley’s situation, it involved the issue of female submission (or lack thereof) to male elders.
We haven’t yet shared our story publicly, for a variety of reasons. But if someone decided to try and create a space for those wounded by Acts 29 to share their stories, I think that my family may decided that it is wise and helpful to share our own story, with the goal of helping protect potential victims from falling prey to this same abusive, coercive, and manipulative system.
We also had a pretty bad experience with an Acts 29 church. We have not been in church at all since leaving that church a year and a half ago and don’t see ourselves ever going to church again. At least not in the near
future and surprisingly, we’re at peace with this decision. I’m sorry you had a bad experience as well. This seems to be a trend and not just with Acts 29 churches. I’m certain Jesus never envisioned His church to be what it’s become in so many cases.
Hi Heather,
Thanks for sharing, and thank you for the empathy. I’m sorry to hear about your experiences as well. I hope that you and your family are able to heal from that. I know that my family is still processing our experiences in some ways.
You are probably right that this terrible trend isn’t simply Acts 29 churches. I think that the danger of this sort of situation happening (i.e. Ms. Hinkley’s situation) is present at any church that (a) utilizes an elder-rule polity, and (b) has no regional or national oversight, i.e. real external accountability for the elders.
It does seem, though, that this authoritarian junk is especially rearing its head among the Neo-Cals/Neo-Reformed, for whatever reason. CJ Mahaney, Mark Dever, James MacDonald, etc.
Grew up fundamental baptist and they had a lot of rules/dysfunction/cultishness. Left that for the village and found out that there were less rules but just as much pressure to participate in their brand of “required” activities i.e.: covenant membership (TM), home group on a weekly basis, etc. Easy to get in but hard to get out without a lot motive questioning and scrutiny. Narrowly missed a position at MHC before the major implosion. TVC home group life ended up being to invasive for us and we resigned our membership to seek out another congregation. However I struggle with putting my wife and myself through another church experience like this. It makes me wonder if the entire concept/reality of church in our time is broken and at its core disconnected from what a real church should be.
Hi Gabriel,
Thanks for chiming in and sharing your perspective – it’s especially helpful since you came out of TVC.
I’m sorry to hear about your experience there with overly-controlling and oppressive Christian culture. I had the same experience at my old Acts 29 church: there were so many requirements that it filled up our week and left little room for interacting with the outside world. As with your experience, Home Group ended up really dominating our lives. And of course the requirements were all technically “voluntary” but watch out – if you didn’t “volunteer” you would suffer the consequences.
I hope and pray for you and your wife that you are able to recover and heal from your experience. And how lucky that you were able to avoid getting mixed up with Mars Hill Church! Talk about a blessing in disguise…
Thanks Mr. H. Thankfully we left on good if awkward terms and do not harbor bitterness toward anyone in that world. The MHC situation and this one we are commenting on at TVC both confirm we made the right choice to leave. However it does sadden me that alleged believers/spiritual leaders can get things so upside down. No one is perfect…
A church led by only male pastors is misogynistic by design. Their policies will favor men and require female submission. The Village Church elders will always promote a male point of view. The female voice has no relevance. Thank you for this blog. I’m a faithful and happy Episcopalian. Women are equal in all things in our Christian church.
“A church led by only male pastors is misogynistic by design. Their policies will favor men and require female submission.”
LOL
“LOL” punctuated by capital letters – so condescending – as is the male perspective. Thanks for making our point.
Today Chandler owned everything 100%. Nothing was whitewash as the elders sought forgiveness in five significant areas.
What specifically did they ask Karen to forgive them for?
The church that values its own opinion over the words of the Lord, is NOT being lead by Christ, as the Bible directs. Changes should be forthcoming in TVC’s covenant, as it does not agree with God’s covenant as inspired and recorded in the Bible.
The Bible permits divorce and/or annulment in cases of:
Sexual immorality or porneia, including in the broader sense all cases of
sexual deviancy, adultery being an example. The implication is habitual
sexual misconduct, but it is not limited to this.
An unbeliever is not pleased to dwell with a believer. A Christian is not
“under bondage” for separating from an unbeliever who is not pleased to
dwell and departs the marriage. Hostility towards God’s way of life is the key
issue; but habitual misconduct such as criminality, addictive behaviors, abuse,
desertion or willful failure to provide physical support (1 Timothy 5:8)
demonstrates unwillingness to live in peace. The “believer” may need to
initiate the legal divorce proceedings.
Fraud (meaning deception) and annulment. A marriage may be annulled or put
aside if either party was deceived by the other partner prior to marrying by
withholding significant information. Only the person defrauded can claim
fraud. Fraud or deception should be acted upon at the time of discovery.
The definition of an unbeliever is based on behavior and attitude. A mate who was
once considered converted may become an unbeliever in the eyes of the mate and the
Church if he or she demonstrates an unconverted heart by continuous abusive,
irresponsible, ungodly behavior (Titus 1:16).
That is the most unkind reading of that apology as possible.
This is why people can never get along and blog posts like this stir more hate- we fill ever gap with suspicion instead of love and trust.
If a line can be taken poorly, you are sure to take it as poorly as possible.
Here’s more to the apology. I really don’t think they intended to hurt Ms. Hinkley. Matt is owning up to everything that they did wrong and I don’t think we can ask for anything more from this brother. I hope Ms. Hinkley is able to see this and go speak with them about her hurts and let them own up to it personally. I also hope that she will be able to heal from the betrayal of her husband and the hurt inflicted on her by the elders of the church that she was trusting to help her through her pain.
http://www.thevillagechurch.net/resources/sermons/detail/wanderer–restorer/
But they don’t owe us an apology…I don’t want to defend them, but we cannot put the sins of MH on them. Maybe they have apologized specifically to her…or will. They do not need to apologize to the media and bloggers specifically for what they did. This is between TVC and the couple, and their body, not the media.
I was expecting an explosion of discussion this morning after Chandler’s sermon yesterday. Instead all I’m hearing is crickets.
I guess when you own the mistakes and repent, there is nothing left to attack. It looks like a soft answer really does turn away wrath.
I hope Driscoll watches this and learns from it.
“I guess when you own the mistakes and repent, there is nothing left to attack. It looks like a soft answer really does turn away wrath.”
Amen and amen.
Chandler said some of the right things in his verbal apology. But just because someone is able to externally project the right stuff doesn’t mean that internally everything is OK. (Jesus had a lot to say about this, I believe).
So, good for Chandler for saying some of the the right things. It was general, and vague, and certainly will help to calm the PR firestorm that was brewing.
But in order to judge if Chandler’s (and the other elders’) repentance is real, they will have to demonstrate the fruit of repentance. In this case, I’d say that acting immediately to do away with the policies and practices that led to Ms. Hinkley’s abuse would be a good start.
Sadly, I am not hopeful that this will happen. In Chandler’s written apology, given before the verbal apology – and which is much more specific in its attempt to address Ms. Hinkley’s situation – there is no sign of the church changing any specific policies, other than the insinuation that they will make the membership *more* strict regarding divorce and annulment. In Chandler’s verbal apology, he goes out of his way to try and say that the Ms. Hinkley fiasco wasn’t a doctrinal issue, but merely a practical one. I think that this is completely false, and that as long as they hold to (i) a skewed ecclesiology (elder-rule without external accountability), (ii) a skewed doctrine of church discipline, and (iii) a skewed doctrine of church membership, this type of thing will always be in danger of happening again.
This link Matt Chandler speaks directly to this in his sermon- 25 minute mark.
He comes across humble and as a “man of sincerity.” If you all read negative things into his apology/response that is an issue with YOU, not Chandler or TVC.
https://vimeo.com/129371788
I hope he was really meant what he was saying. However, it was general apology for more than just Karen’s situation admittedly. So, it makes it questionable, which parts apply to her situation. Their specific communication is really the last word they wrote on the matter. It leaves me wondering about the following questions:
1) Why did they not name such sinful control issues in their specific written apology regarding Karen Hinkley to their members if they thought it was an issue?
2) By putting Karen under church discipline and releasing her, are they saying as Matt Chandler teaches in the sermon video that they cannot affirm her as a fellow Christian?
3) And given a do-over, would they have chosen not to put Karen under church discipline or does their “correct” theology dictate otherwise?
Like I said above, I really hope this is genuine. It looks like it by how Matt Chandler communicates. However, the above questions remain. Maybe they are tied up and afraid to speak for legal reasons, I do not know. But a general apology does not addressing the specific stance they took publicly against Karen. It leaves much unresolved and unsettled. Their last statement said they regret not being prepared, and it did NOT say they regret being controlling or regret putting her under church discipline. That would be more in line with a substantive apology, IMO.
“2) By putting Karen under church discipline and releasing her, are they saying as Matt Chandler teaches in the sermon video that they cannot affirm her as a fellow Christian?
3) And given a do-over, would they have chosen not to put Karen under church discipline or does their “correct” theology dictate otherwise?”
Indeed, these are quite confusing aspects to Chandler’s approach to the situation. It seems contradictory in many ways.
So, according to Chandler and TVC: Karen in fact do anything wrong? If so, what was it, and why is she now being “let go?”
I want to hear specifics in an apology – I learned that in counseling many years ago. Never give or accept a vague apology – it never goes anyone any good. Always know what specifically what is being apologized for. In this case, I’m still not clear what Chandler thinks that TVC did wrong, specifically. Or what Karen did wrong, if anything.
Why is it necessary that you or anyone else other than Karen that was damaged hear specifics of their apology? Did he not say they were going to be speaking with people personally, and that they were still trying to understand and own everything they needed to repent of?
Seems to me he listed 5 things that were pretty specific and then said they were still trying to learn what else they needed to repent of.
TVC and Matt Chandler have a broader impact than just their local church body. Chandler is the President of Acts 29 and a member of The Gospel Coalition having very significant influence as a representative of the evangelical voice–for good or ill.
The way this situation with Karen was handled is the sort of thing that gives rise to criticisms that evangelicals are really just cult members. So, as an evangelical minister myself, I have a stake in this because I am not a cult member and do not wish to be associated with such spiritually abusive behavior as I saw in operation with Karen’s situation.
By not addressing the Karen situation and saying these five things apply to her situation directly, they leave room for people to believe TVC and evangelicals, in general, find what happened to Karen acceptable because she signed a membership covenant. In other words, this situation hurts the Church universal. So, do not be surprised if some of us speak up and suggest this was not enough to correct the problem.
That’s my two cents.
I don’t disagree with much of what you have said, but I don’t know how any reasonable person can hear the apologies -both spoken publicly, and in his sermon- and not conclude that they weren’t sincere and at the very least they are re-evaluating and trying to make amends.
The level of nitpicking that has taken place about the exact wording of the apology makes me think that many people aren’t interested in them repenting of these specific sins, but rather their theology.
Perhaps we would be more happy if they were like Martin Luther, spending endless hours agonizing over every possible sin they may have missed and not repented of afraid of the wrath that God might rain down upon them if they fail to do so.
As Christians who speak much of grace and forgiveness, perhaps we should consider and be happy God doesn’t require that of us, maybe we should at least attempt to extend a modicum of the Grace He has shown us.
I do not claim to be able to judge their sincerity as I cannot see into the heart of these men. Only God knows the true extent of that. Ultimately, He is their judge and not me. My hope is that Matt Chandler was sincere. I really, really hope so, actually.
My comments are about praxis–deeds done and things said/written. Nothing has yet been said to check a message that says putting a person under church discipline is acceptable if they seek annulment for a marriage enter into under fraudulent circumstances (per even outside third-party assessment). TVC’s specific address of the Karen’s situation did not say they were wrong to put her under church discipline, but rather they were wrong in not being prepared to tell her their theology on the matter. Oh, and they ought to have told her how they were right in a nicer way. That’s what the last direct statement said.
I regularly minister to adultery survivors on my blog. My heart breaks over how many of my readers tell me horror stories of spiritual abuse by church leaders. I want that to stop.
Church discipline is completely appropriate in these situations for the adulterous, unrepentant spouse. It is completely INAPPROPRIATE for a survivor like Karen who discovered her “husband” had lied for years about being involved with pedophilia. In fact, I would say it is cruel.
No statement has been made to say they were wrong to put her under discipline. I do not know why. Maybe their view of their membership covenant continues to blind them to pain they caused and the horrible precedence they are setting for other evangelical churches? Like I said above, I do not know their hearts. I am concerned that their example–which they said more than once is theologically correct–will lead to more adultery/sexual immorality survivors washing up on my digital shores after experiencing similar spiritual abuse. Those are my concerns.
Some might say I am being nitpicking, and I would have to respectfully disagree. I think it matters that the practical theology error–as I see it–is addressed explicitly. It hasn’t to this point, IMO.
Divorce Minister:
You make some good points. I too have been a victim of Church abuse-though not to the extent many have- and want abuse to stop.
Since church discipline has most often been done poorly, most people have a negative response to the phrase. Though done properly, it should be a redemptive and not punitive process. I have seen it done well and in a way that is beneficial to all involved. I’m not speaking about this situation specifically, but rather generally.
For the sake of argument (since we don’t know the hearts of those involved) consider it might be a possibility that the desire of those that started the discipline process in this case were hoping to see a restored marriage and redemption. That is a good thing. Now they have admitted that they handled it all wrong, and they did. But, we can’t always assume the motive was wrong.
I see a different heart in Matt Chandler than I saw in Mark Driscoll, and I don’t think it is fair to conflate the two because they have similar theology. Let’s not forget Matt Chandler and Acts29 removed Mark Driscoll from Acts29 because of these kinds of abuses.
I think we can remove theology off the table for this discussion. We all know that abuse goes on in all kinds of churches with different theological convictions. This is a heart issue not a theology issue. I think the slippery slope arguments in this case are weak –not directing that at you, just many of the other things I’ve read online recently.
Dennis,
I cannot speak to the intentions of these men or say Matt Chandler has a different heart than Mark Driscoll. As we agree, we cannot see the hearts of these men. That means we cannot judge motives or intentions. All we have are words and actions.
And we may disagree over the issue if this is related to their theology. If they theologically could not support Karen unequivocally in her decision to annul a fraudulent “marriage,” then I would suggest their theology of marriage, divorce, and annulment needs re-examining. Also, I am concerned with any theology that asserts itself as in control of marriage/divorce/annulment decisions for adult Christians. Matt Chandler addressed that issue in his sermon generally speaking about becoming controlling as opposed to advising. Does he and TVC see that as what took place with Karen? It would have been good for them to say so in their explicit and direct email to their huge membership, which they chose NOT to do.
Finally, as I said above, I am not opposed to church discipline per se. But the Karen Hinkley situation shows a church willing to discipline a woman annulling a “marriage” ravaged by years of fraud and sexual immorality (“porneia”) placing her on the same plane as an unrepentant adulteress. Something is seriously wrong with such church discipline for that to have happen. And it remains problematic that they do not specifically call out this sin in regards to how they handled Karen’s case.
Do not forget: this case developed over MONTHS full of poor leadership decisions on TVC’s part including–according to Karen–going after her status with SIM and disregarding or delaying in following that respected mission organization’s counsel on the matter.
If I remember correctly Matt Chandler said “we are not repenting of mistakes, we are repenting of Sins”
Are you wanting him to publicly confess each and every detail before that is to be considered a valid repentance?
If I have been guilty of being rude in the past (which I have) is it enough for me to ask forgiveness of from a person generally? “I’m sorry I have been rude to you, that was wrong of me, will you forgive me?” or do I need to go back through and list every instance?”
This still seems to me that we may be demanding far more than we would expect in return and perhaps even more than God expects.
Also it seems to me that repenting of sins could very well include “MONTHS full of poor leadership decisions on TVC’s Part.” Once you admit a mistake and say you are trying to find ways to improve and correct, do we need to keep bringing it up?
I’m sorry, but the theological argument is still very week. I have been a Christian for over 30 years and I have met some of the most conservative Calvinistic people who are the most gentle and loving you could ever meet, pastors and leaders included. I’ve also met some of the most rude and arrogant who are more of a liberal stripe, and vice versa. Abuse is a character issue, not a doctrinal issue. Maybe you need to hang out with some more Calvinists 🙂
In any case I’m happy you are out there counseling people have been abused. We need more people like you.
Dennis,
Thanks for your kind words. Caring for spiritually abused people is a calling.
As to Reformed vs Liberal theology, I am not criticizing the totality of MC’s theology’s system. I have wonderful Reformed friends who do not act like jerks–not that I am saying MC is here (but an argument could be made about his underlings).
My theological concern has to deal with more honed in issues. Specifically, do they see their pastoral authority as extending to making decisions for others when it comes to marriages or do they see their role before God as pastors as simply providing sound counsel? I think that is a theological question. Also, does their theological commitments prohibit them from completely supporting Karen in her getting a marriage annulment? Their silence in this matter suggests to me an affirmation of that, and I view that as unbiblical, in my opinion. As you can see, these are not simply Reformed vs. Liberal theological questions per se. But they are proper theological questions to ask in these matters as they have direct bearing on what went down in Karen’s case (and perhaps in others’).
Finally, I write this as someone who has been a Christian for nearly 30 years as well. Plus, I am an ordained evangelical minister endorsed for professional chaplain ministry by the NAE with a Master of Divinity from Yale who even taught theology/church history at the seminary level after obtaining my masters. I write that to say that I know what I am talking about when I say this is a theological issue and not simply an implementation issue as characterized by MC and TVC.
If u have never responded to a situation in a way u later regret then good for you. I’ve attended TVC for about six years, like every other human organization they make mistakes and they acknowledge them & seek to do better. It is a sincere, loving church. The leaders do their best to serve God & the congretion, and Matt is an honest, sincere & loving pastor. My response is yup, the leaders & elders are human. Yup, they messed up. Let you who have never sinned keep throwing stones, we at TVC have been apologized to & we are moving on together seeking to follow Jesus.
There’s a voice missing here.
I was a trafficked child from the age of four. It is the actions of people like Jordan who drive the market for the “merchandise” that we trafficked people as tiny children are turned into. To everyone who minimizes the act because he “never touched a child that way” I can assure you that others did it for him. To impute these actions to God or the Devil lets the human off the hook for his actions. They were his agency, his choices, his victims.
Forgive him? Forgive any of them? I’ll forgive them when I’m four again, and getting in the car with a trusted figure to go get ice cream. Make it never happen.
I can tell you that it stays with you forever. I’m 50, and even with therapy, drugs, and all the Jesusing you can stand, you never get over it. You never trust again. It kills a part of your soul past reviving. I grew up praying to God to make it stop, then to kill me. I tried in so many ways to make my outside express the pain of the inside. And finally the only way that I could live was to let it all go, and faith with it. If there was a God who meant twenty years of cross-spectrum abuse to test me, I failed and it broke me. Once I was free, I drank, and drugged, shaved my head, cut my arms, I would beat myself. I was numb. You see, I couldn’t function without the pain – so I dished it out to myself. It took me another ten years to even like myself.
Nah. Leaving that alone. Going for a walk in the park. This past week has been triggering almost to the breaking point.
D, thank you for your voice! In my view, this is indeed the heart of the matter regarding this whole horrible debaucle. May you continue to find healing and peace for all the broken places.
I admire Karen for sticking up for us. I think any survivor who read this would. She’s a lioness! Go, Karen. 🙂
D, I only know what you went through in a much smaller way, having been sexually abused by my pastor-father. So a big cheer for you standing tall and actually writing about it. Much much respect!
YES, the basic issue is the children. The bottom line for me is that in all the blahblahblah, they were not mentioned.
My heart was breaking when I read your comment. I am so sorry for what happened to you as a trusting, innocent, defenseless little child. There are no words to express the anger it wells up in me to hear of such tragidy. It is becoming more commonplace in our society. I can tell you that the people in your life that did this to you were evil and acting out of total self will with no regard for the damage they would cause to you. I can also tell you without a shadow of a doubt that the Lord was crying as you went through all of it. I can’t tell you why your cries were not answered in a way that you were able to know, but then again, if I could do that I wouldn’t have gone through so many of the things I went through dealing with my abuse! I have a very close relationship with the Lord today. A relationship so close I call Him my Father. There is a ministry called Fellowship of the Sword. I heard about it and went on a HeartQuest. I met Him. He spoke to my heart. All the abuse, my life as a drug addict, alocoholic, lesbian, cutter, exibitionist, fornicator…..its all gone. I don’t regret any of it. My story has helped so many other women (and men). I don’t hold any of it against God. He did not do those things to me-sick people and myself did those things to me. The Lord has used every bit of it to glorify Himself-that is why we are here-to glorify Him……
http://www.thevillagechurch.net/resources/sermons/detail/wanderer–restorer/
Sermon where you can hear an apology from the pastor.
What I found most egregious was the statement that Karen was “released” from church membership. WTF? You cannot legally or ethically keep a person in a church, or any other organization. No apology here. No humility. No kindness. Just doubling down on their failed Policies & Procedures.
Hinkley wrote: “Matt and Josh looked me in the eyes, apologised, and asked for forgiveness. They told me that they felt awful about how I had been treated. They said I had biblical grounds for annulment or divorce, that I should have been granted my withdrawal from membership immediately, and that I never should have been put under discipline. They wanted to hear anything I was willing to say about what had happened, and they promised to do everything they could to make it right and make sure that what happened to me never happened to anyone again. I thanked them for their obvious sincerity and forgave them.”
She added: “Matt and Josh promised many changes to come, and I have watched with joy over the past week as they have kept their word and begun to implement those changes.”
She signed a covenant agreeing to their processes…