Mark Driscoll’s Pussified Nation…

In his book Confessions of a Reformission Rev, Mark Driscoll might have made one confession too many. See image below.

10564924_523792667748675_1581920178_n-1

Mark’s seemingly funny story about writing as William Wallace II might end up becoming his worst nightmare yet. Because Mark’s Internet ramblings as William Wallace II from 14 years ago have allegedly hit the Internet. Not just at my blog. But at lots of places. You can read the backstory about “William Wallace II” here at Wenatchee The Hatchet.

Screen Shot 2014-07-29 at 1.29.33 PM

Screen Shot 2014-07-29 at 2.38.37 PM copyScreen Shot 2014-07-29 at 2.38.37 PMScreen Shot 2014-07-29 at 2.38.50 PMScreen Shot 2014-07-29 at 2.38.55 PM

And that’s just part of the 140-page conversation that you can read here.

And warning… it’s a mouthful.

 

Comments

  1. ryanlrobinson says

    If our church created a men’s group that involved cookies, I would be there in a heartbeat.

  2. Andzej Pietrok says

    Actually, this is not his “worst nightmare yet.”
    The possibility an indictment for misappropriation of solicited, designated donations to the Mars Hill Global fund is the real nightmare. Non-repentance for potty talk as a pastor over a decade ago? Small potatoes in comparison.

  3. mclanea1 says

    Andzej Pietrok Yeah, if this is true he might get to prove his manhood once and for all in a minimum security federal detention center…

  4. RyanFishel says

    Andzej Pietrok In regards to the blog talk from 15 years ago, how do you know he’s not repentant?

  5. wallowawellness says

    RyanFishel Andzej Pietrok  because of the way he talks about it Ryan… he doesn’t not talk at any point like a penitent man, pretty much stuck on power over, arrogant, abusive

  6. wallowawellness says

    RyanFishel Andzej Pietrok  because of the way he talks about it Ryan… he doesn’t not talk at any point like a penitent man, pretty much stuck on power over, arrogant, abusive

  7. zachauthor says

    I am no fan of Mark Driscoll’s but I swear to the barefooted Jesus this sort of post is so very disappointing.

  8. WhattheHellBook says

    There is something seriously wrong with this man and anyone who attends the church. It’s a shame that loving everyone, regardless of who they are, is thought of as feminism.

  9. WhattheHellBook says

    There is something seriously wrong with this man and anyone who attends the church. It’s a shame that loving everyone, regardless of who they are, is thought of as feminism.

  10. CorinneHarveyCausby says

    So I plowed through that whole thread, and I’m sitting here… just…. just…. bug eyed. I knew he was nuts. I knew I didn’t like him. I know a lot of what was written could be skewed as sarcasm, but DAY-UM. DAYYYYYYY-UMMMMMMMM. I need a shower now.

  11. CorinneHarveyCausby says

    So I plowed through that whole thread, and I’m sitting here… just…. just…. bug eyed. I knew he was nuts. I knew I didn’t like him. I know a lot of what was written could be skewed as sarcasm, but DAY-UM. DAYYYYYYY-UMMMMMMMM. I need a shower now.

  12. lailaco19 says

    WhattheHellBook But, that’s precisely what feminism IS. It is equality for everyone, men and women, straight and queer, White and Black. What is truly shameful is that feminism is associated with something negative, when it is actually positive.

    • Brent says

      Boy did you get a major brainwashing. Feminism is about destruction of the family Abject hatred of men, and pro abortion(killing babies under the guise of reproductive rights) , sexual promiscuity, trying to redefine Gods gender differences, which will never succeed, and defiantly in the end strive to exalt themselves to most high at the expense of leaving a wake of destruction in their path. Furthermore, It was a artificially concocted movement, to further divide people like you to help usher in the new Godless global agenda. Please learn critical thinking, and not just parrot the 2 or 3 lines you heard the angry women tell you at school or on TV.

  13. lailaco19 says

    WhattheHellBook But, that’s precisely what feminism IS. It is equality for everyone, men and women, straight and queer, White and Black. What is truly shameful is that feminism is associated with something negative, when it is actually positive.

  14. lailaco19 says

    BrendtWayneWaters Well, he did admit that he had the wrong approach and cursed too much, but never once did he denounce his former beliefs.  If you’ve heard his sermons or read his books from the past few years, you would know that his stance on gender roles has not changed at all.

  15. lailaco19 says

    BrendtWayneWaters Well, he did admit that he had the wrong approach and cursed too much, but never once did he denounce his former beliefs.  If you’ve heard his sermons or read his books from the past few years, you would know that his stance on gender roles has not changed at all.

  16. ejpops says

    So what. He was playing a role, being the tough guy. The personal real opinions of great preachers of the past would probably anger you if you were to know about those opinions.

  17. ejpops says

    So what. He was playing a role, being the tough guy. The personal real opinions of great preachers of the past would probably anger you if you were to know about those opinions.

  18. JimWelch says

    I am with Ryan below……why even waste the time of posting this.  Maybe a better question is why did I waste the time reading this, I am referring to the post, not the article.

  19. JimWelch says

    I am with Ryan below……why even waste the time of posting this.  Maybe a better question is why did I waste the time reading this, I am referring to the post, not the article.

    • Brent says

      He may have been very rough around the edges, but you got it backwards, I don’t think he hates women at all that are living in the Lord. He’s talking about feminists who spew a very hateful agenda far from God as can be. You obviously are so brainwashed you don’t have any awareness of the Feminist agenda which is the antithesis of what Christianity is. Please educate yourself about the feminists stances on abortion, sexual freedoms, division of men and women. and please refer to the Bibles doctrine about the roles of women in the church(Timothy) and the doctrinal differences in everyday life Liberalism is a mental disorder, and people who hate men this much divide people, destroy traditional families and these women tend to want to exalt themselves on most high……..

  20. JeffPreuss says

    So, this man who purports to be a spiritual leader, in his role as spiritual leader, creates a fake account with the specific purpose of creating offensively divisive troll posts?  And he plays it off like an amusing anecdote?
    Mark Driscoll should not be telling anyone how to act.  Sheesh.

  21. JeffPreuss says

    So, this man who purports to be a spiritual leader, in his role as spiritual leader, creates a fake account with the specific purpose of creating offensively divisive troll posts?  And he plays it off like an amusing anecdote?
    Mark Driscoll should not be telling anyone how to act.  Sheesh.

  22. anna_cracker says

    BrendtWayneWaters This is okay if he was a teenager at the time, and his internet trolling was called out. He was in a seat of authority at his church at this time, was in his 30s, and was NEVER held accountable for his actions. He still continues to act out since, and has yet to be disciplined by his community in any real way.

    This attitude still hurts Christians at Mars Hill. There are no excuses.

  23. anna_cracker says

    BrendtWayneWaters This is okay if he was a teenager at the time, and his internet trolling was called out. He was in a seat of authority at his church at this time, was in his 30s, and was NEVER held accountable for his actions. He still continues to act out since, and has yet to be disciplined by his community in any real way.

    This attitude still hurts Christians at Mars Hill. There are no excuses.

  24. jungstin says

    14 years ago. He was a younger pastor still learning and growing. He doesn’t hate women; he hates men who don’t like like godly men. Don’t see why you posted all this in the first place. Unedifying and discouraging. Mark is a sinner like everyone else and he’s made mistakes with his words. Give him grace cause God seems to be using him.

  25. jungstin says

    14 years ago. He was a younger pastor still learning and growing. He doesn’t hate women; he hates men who don’t like like godly men. Don’t see why you posted all this in the first place. Unedifying and discouraging. Mark is a sinner like everyone else and he’s made mistakes with his words. Give him grace cause God seems to be using him.

  26. lailaco19 says

    jungstin The problem is that Mark’s views have not changed in the past 14 years, only his approach. Perhaps he does not technically “hate” women (though I find that hard to believe given his WWII posts), but he certainly does not respect them or see them as equal to men. You say this post is unedifying and discouraging, but doesn’t the Bible say to call pastors out on their sin? God is not using him, unless you believe God wants him to promote misogyny, homophobia, and commit spiritual abuse. Save your grace for the abused, not the abuser.

  27. lailaco19 says

    jungstin The problem is that Mark’s views have not changed in the past 14 years, only his approach. Perhaps he does not technically “hate” women (though I find that hard to believe given his WWII posts), but he certainly does not respect them or see them as equal to men. You say this post is unedifying and discouraging, but doesn’t the Bible say to call pastors out on their sin? God is not using him, unless you believe God wants him to promote misogyny, homophobia, and commit spiritual abuse. Save your grace for the abused, not the abuser.

  28. jungstin says

    lailaco19 What if Mark’s views are his convictions and it’s biblical? And if you actually took the time to listen to him, he actually loves women and respects them. I think it’s unwise to put yourself in the place of judgment and to say that God is not using someone. It’s clear you differ from Mark’s convictions and you can’t tolerate that. And it’s also clear by looking at your other responses here that you’re a troll. Again, Mark is not perfect and he’s a sinner like everyone else and what’s most important is that he’s  preaching the gospel and the Word. That’s enough.

  29. jungstin says

    lailaco19 What if Mark’s views are his convictions and it’s biblical? And if you actually took the time to listen to him, he actually loves women and respects them. I think it’s unwise to put yourself in the place of judgment and to say that God is not using someone. It’s clear you differ from Mark’s convictions and you can’t tolerate that. And it’s also clear by looking at your other responses here that you’re a troll. Again, Mark is not perfect and he’s a sinner like everyone else and what’s most important is that he’s  preaching the gospel and the Word. That’s enough.

  30. lailaco19 says

    jungstin Actually, I spent years listening to his sermons. I am well acquainted with his views, and after a lot of difficult soul searching, I found his teachings to be toxic. I personally know that when you are in that world, it is hard to look at it objectively. I hope that you, as well as others, will wake up and see him for what he really is. If God IS using him, then I don’t find Him to be a God worth worshiping. I refuse to believe that God is that mean-spirited and egotistical. Driscoll does not model Christ in any way. It is not enough that he preaches the Gospel, he must live it out and at the very least not be an abusive egotistical ass-wipe. I encourage you to check joyfulexiles.com, if you want to see Driscoll for what he really is.

  31. lailaco19 says

    jungstin Actually, I spent years listening to his sermons. I am well acquainted with his views, and after a lot of difficult soul searching, I found his teachings to be toxic. I personally know that when you are in that world, it is hard to look at it objectively. I hope that you, as well as others, will wake up and see him for what he really is. If God IS using him, then I don’t find Him to be a God worth worshiping. I refuse to believe that God is that mean-spirited and egotistical. Driscoll does not model Christ in any way. It is not enough that he preaches the Gospel, he must live it out and at the very least not be an abusive egotistical ass-wipe. I encourage you to check joyfulexiles.com, if you want to see Driscoll for what he really is.

  32. JeffPreuss says

    lailaco19 I for one would find it difficult to follow a faith leader who was intentionally deceptive on his church’s site, rather than make his stand AS a representative of that church.  And, maybe his language is not quite as harsh as it was as his sock puppet account, but it seems apparent he doesn’t even show any remorse for that role.

    Good for you that you recognized the toxin and removed it from your life.

  33. lailaco19 says

    JeffPreuss I’m not sure I follow what you mean about him being deceptive on his church’s site, but yes, I do cringe when I look back on that time in my life. I wonder how I could have willingly received such harmful teaching. I suppose it’s because my former youth pastor and church friends all looked up to him. It’s easy to get sucked in, especially when you’re 16, depressed, and searching for meaning. Thankfully, I’m at a much better place in my life now. I don’t know if I’m a Christian, but it’s okay. I know I like Jesus and that’s enough for now.

  34. lailaco19 says

    JeffPreuss I’m not sure I follow what you mean about him being deceptive on his church’s site, but yes, I do cringe when I look back on that time in my life. I wonder how I could have willingly received such harmful teaching. I suppose it’s because my former youth pastor and church friends all looked up to him. It’s easy to get sucked in, especially when you’re 16, depressed, and searching for meaning. Thankfully, I’m at a much better place in my life now. I don’t know if I’m a Christian, but it’s okay. I know I like Jesus and that’s enough for now.

  35. JeffPreuss says

    Oh, just all the William Wallace stuff he posted in the Midrash forum. Hiding behind a pseudonym to post that stuff on his church’s site isn’t truthful. I speak nothing about anything current, just what was related above.

  36. JeffPreuss says

    Oh, just all the William Wallace stuff he posted in the Midrash forum. Hiding behind a pseudonym to post that stuff on his church’s site isn’t truthful. I speak nothing about anything current, just what was related above.

  37. mmaitlen says

    I think this is actually pretty funny. He makes some solid points but also is a little crazy. As with any Christian leader or person or pastor – take the meat, spit out the bones. Or just don’t partake in his teaching. 

    And if we’re calling people out on their sin, the Bible says to do it alone first. So unless you’ve gone and talked to him about it before posting it, this blog post isn’t biblical.

  38. ssteen says

    mmaitlen Amen, brother. Such a good point. I assume, of course, that you approached Matthew privately before publicly calling out his “sin” on his blog. Right?

  39. ssteen says

    mmaitlen Amen, brother. Such a good point. I assume, of course, that you approached Matthew privately before publicly calling out his “sin” on his blog. Right?

  40. ssteen says

    mmaitlen “If another member of the church sins against you, go and point out the fault when the two of you are alone…” Matthew 18:15

    I assume this is basically what you had in mind when you said his post “isn’t biblical,” yes? I hope you can see the humor (and absurdity) here. Now if you’ll excuse me I need to get back to this log protruding from my eye.

  41. ssteen says

    mmaitlen “If another member of the church sins against you, go and point out the fault when the two of you are alone…” Matthew 18:15

    I assume this is basically what you had in mind when you said his post “isn’t biblical,” yes? I hope you can see the humor (and absurdity) here. Now if you’ll excuse me I need to get back to this log protruding from my eye.

  42. maam says

    RyanFishel Andzej Pietrok Because of the thing he thinks women should subject themselves to properly “submit” to their husbands, including and especially degrading sexual acts.

  43. maam says

    RyanFishel Andzej Pietrok Because he still thinks that in order to be a properly submissive wife, she should allow her husband to use her sexually in all manner of degrading and humiliating acts.

    Because of his “visions” of others’ sexual sins. He clearly has some major sexual issues…it seems he never stops thinking about it!

    When he publicly repents of his misogynistic views on women, I will re-think my position.

  44. maam says

    RyanFishel Andzej Pietrok Because he still thinks that in order to be a properly submissive wife, she should allow her husband to use her sexually in all manner of degrading and humiliating acts.

    Because of his “visions” of others’ sexual sins. He clearly has some major sexual issues…it seems he never stops thinking about it!

    When he publicly repents of his misogynistic views on women, I will re-think my position.

  45. BartBreen says

    mmaitlen Baloney.  He posted it publicly on the web and revealed publicly that it was him.  People who live in the public forum can and should be addressed in the same forum they address others.
    Instead of trying to guilt people into covering up, why don’t you address the issues and stop trying to silence those who are?

  46. BartBreen says

    mmaitlen Baloney.  He posted it publicly on the web and revealed publicly that it was him.  People who live in the public forum can and should be addressed in the same forum they address others.
    Instead of trying to guilt people into covering up, why don’t you address the issues and stop trying to silence those who are?

  47. flounderfoot says

    emergingchrist

    14 years ago?  Is that right?  I knew it was over 8 years.

    Christian celebrity bit is just crap.  He wrote it not in a pastor role, probably in the heat of the moment.  Judge the guy by what comes out of his mouth now … if you actually listen to him, it is all from Scripture.  He is more effective at preaching the truth than 99% of the pastor out there.

  48. flounderfoot says

    emergingchrist

    14 years ago?  Is that right?  I knew it was over 8 years.

    Christian celebrity bit is just crap.  He wrote it not in a pastor role, probably in the heat of the moment.  Judge the guy by what comes out of his mouth now … if you actually listen to him, it is all from Scripture.  He is more effective at preaching the truth than 99% of the pastor out there.

  49. flounderfoot says

    lailaco19 jungstin His views seem accurate from a Biblical perspective.  He challenges the men to actually be men.

    I’m not a member of Mars Hill, but I strongly support this guy.

  50. flounderfoot says

    lailaco19 jungstin His views seem accurate from a Biblical perspective.  He challenges the men to actually be men.

    I’m not a member of Mars Hill, but I strongly support this guy.

  51. flounderfoot says

    anna_cracker BrendtWayneWaters

    Cracker, how does this hurt men at Mars Hill?  It challenges them to be responsible men (both to God and their wives?)  Please…..

  52. flounderfoot says

    anna_cracker BrendtWayneWaters

    Cracker, how does this hurt men at Mars Hill?  It challenges them to be responsible men (both to God and their wives?)  Please…..

  53. ennead says

    All you people saying Matthew shouldn’t have posted this, consider that the women, and the men who don’t hate women, who might otherwise listen to what Mark Driscoll claims to be the “biblical” teachings about men and women, need to be warned about Driscoll’s actual motivations and thoughts behind what he teaches.

    This bile quoted above is what is in that man’s heart, and what is behind his extreme anti-egalitarian teachings about women. He hides that bile a little bit more now and tries to make it sound nicer, but the heart of his teachings is still the same–utter hatred for all that is feminine. Women and men both need to know that, as a warning, so as to know that his teachings come from hatred and not from love, and hence that they cannot be trusted.

    Given that Mark Driscoll is now a hugely influential public figure, revealing who he is serves to help protect other people from him and to warn him. We are to be wise as serpents–we are to be discriminating. We are to be careful whose teachings we listen to. 
    Warning people that Mark Driscoll has expressed ragingly hateful and misogynistic views is a good, loving, biblical act which serves to help protect people’s minds and souls from evil and falsehood. I am grateful to those who have done this for me.

  54. ennead says

    All you people saying Matthew shouldn’t have posted this, consider that the women, and the men who don’t hate women, who might otherwise listen to what Mark Driscoll claims to be the “biblical” teachings about men and women, need to be warned about Driscoll’s actual motivations and thoughts behind what he teaches.

    This bile quoted above is what is in that man’s heart, and what is behind his extreme anti-egalitarian teachings about women. He hides that bile a little bit more now and tries to make it sound nicer, but the heart of his teachings is still the same–utter hatred for all that is feminine. Women and men both need to know that, as a warning, so as to know that his teachings come from hatred and not from love, and hence that they cannot be trusted.

    Given that Mark Driscoll is now a hugely influential public figure, revealing who he is serves to help protect other people from him and to warn him. We are to be wise as serpents–we are to be discriminating. We are to be careful whose teachings we listen to. 
    Warning people that Mark Driscoll has expressed ragingly hateful and misogynistic views is a good, loving, biblical act which serves to help protect people’s minds and souls from evil and falsehood. I am grateful to those who have done this for me.

  55. flounderfoot says

    lailaco19 WhattheHellBook

    No…. feminism is more than equality for women.  It has turned into destroying manhood and in some cases the very fabric of what men are.  What Driscoll is saying is that men shouldn’t abuse women, but neither should they be pathetic wimps that answer to their every call.

    We have turned into a society where the average man is not slapping his girlfriend around, he sits at home playing X-box while his pregnant girlfriend is out working 12 hours a day trying to bring food on the table.  That’s the man that Mark is attacking.  Feminism has helped create that man unfortunately.

  56. flounderfoot says

    lailaco19 WhattheHellBook

    No…. feminism is more than equality for women.  It has turned into destroying manhood and in some cases the very fabric of what men are.  What Driscoll is saying is that men shouldn’t abuse women, but neither should they be pathetic wimps that answer to their every call.

    We have turned into a society where the average man is not slapping his girlfriend around, he sits at home playing X-box while his pregnant girlfriend is out working 12 hours a day trying to bring food on the table.  That’s the man that Mark is attacking.  Feminism has helped create that man unfortunately.

  57. HyperSpiral says

    So what happens when guys like this to home to their wives and daughters, get asked what they did at work, and respond “I talked about how being like you is the worst thing someone can be.”

  58. HyperSpiral says

    So what happens when guys like this to home to their wives and daughters, get asked what they did at work, and respond “I talked about how being like you is the worst thing someone can be.”

  59. lailaco19 says

    flounderfoot Depends what you consider “biblical.” Jesus never addressed gender roles, and treated women with dignity. The early church had several female leaders and were active in spreading the gospel. 

    Also, the bible calls husbands to submit to their wives as well, but how often do you hear that preached? It is always the women that must submit. That is a toxic teaching that oppresses women and makes them believe that they are less valuable than men.

  60. lailaco19 says

    flounderfoot Depends what you consider “biblical.” Jesus never addressed gender roles, and treated women with dignity. The early church had several female leaders and were active in spreading the gospel. 

    Also, the bible calls husbands to submit to their wives as well, but how often do you hear that preached? It is always the women that must submit. That is a toxic teaching that oppresses women and makes them believe that they are less valuable than men.

  61. flounderfoot says

    lailaco19 flounderfoot

    Itailaco …. You have not taken the time to actually listen to Mark Driscoll.  If you actually listened to him and was humble enough to admit it, you would realize that he doesn’t belittle women.  He challenges men.

    Jesus also never talked about the internet, how to build a church building, or whether it was okay to eat Thai food.  He did raise the dignity of women as did the early church leaders.  But the early church leaders also focused on men being the spiritual leader of the home and the church, women were not allowed to publicly lead in a position of authority (and Paul cited Genesis in his reasons why), but women did play a vital role and were honored publicly.  You know enough about the Bible to feel comfortable but not convicted.  I am fearful for you.

    The issue in the end isn’t whether or not “you like Jesus”.  The issue is whether or not He is your Lord and Savior.  If he isn’t, then according to what He said, you will spend eternity separated from him gnashing your teeth in regret.  I don’t want that to happen to you.  For that reason I challenge you to honestly seek out who Christ is and realize that the Christian life is one of first placing Jesus as Lord of all of our lives.  Jesus is worth it.

    I’m not a member of Mars Hill.  But when I took the time to listen to Mark Driscoll, I was challenged as a man to be a better husband and spiritual leader for my family.  I was certainly not encouraged to look down on woman (just the opposite).  He speaks harsh and boldly, but he speaks the gospel of Jesus Christ with accuracy and effectiveness.  Thousands have allowed Jesus to be Lord of their lives through his preaching and are attempting to honor Christ.

    If you have not listened to Mark Driscoll and humbly consider what he says, then I would encourage you to do so.  Get beyond the excuse of Mark’s yelling and how it might offend you and actually take the time to listen to the guy.

  62. flounderfoot says

    lailaco19 flounderfoot

    Itailaco …. You have not taken the time to actually listen to Mark Driscoll.  If you actually listened to him and was humble enough to admit it, you would realize that he doesn’t belittle women.  He challenges men.

    Jesus also never talked about the internet, how to build a church building, or whether it was okay to eat Thai food.  He did raise the dignity of women as did the early church leaders.  But the early church leaders also focused on men being the spiritual leader of the home and the church, women were not allowed to publicly lead in a position of authority (and Paul cited Genesis in his reasons why), but women did play a vital role and were honored publicly.  You know enough about the Bible to feel comfortable but not convicted.  I am fearful for you.

    The issue in the end isn’t whether or not “you like Jesus”.  The issue is whether or not He is your Lord and Savior.  If he isn’t, then according to what He said, you will spend eternity separated from him gnashing your teeth in regret.  I don’t want that to happen to you.  For that reason I challenge you to honestly seek out who Christ is and realize that the Christian life is one of first placing Jesus as Lord of all of our lives.  Jesus is worth it.

    I’m not a member of Mars Hill.  But when I took the time to listen to Mark Driscoll, I was challenged as a man to be a better husband and spiritual leader for my family.  I was certainly not encouraged to look down on woman (just the opposite).  He speaks harsh and boldly, but he speaks the gospel of Jesus Christ with accuracy and effectiveness.  Thousands have allowed Jesus to be Lord of their lives through his preaching and are attempting to honor Christ.

    If you have not listened to Mark Driscoll and humbly consider what he says, then I would encourage you to do so.  Get beyond the excuse of Mark’s yelling and how it might offend you and actually take the time to listen to the guy.

  63. BartBreen says

    flounderfoot lailaco19 I have listened to “the guy”.  I’ve read “the guy”.  I’ve also watched “the guy” as recently as the last 2 years use deceitful methods to promote a book, get into other issues on the internet and social media due to his lack of tact and temperance.  I’ve also “watched” the guy and his church respond to a large number of former staff and members who have left citing spiritual abuse and bullying at all levels of the church. 
    Personality cults are rarely healthy.  Dictators often are good at making trains run on time.  That doesn’t excuse or justify their abuse.

  64. BartBreen says

    flounderfoot lailaco19 I have listened to “the guy”.  I’ve read “the guy”.  I’ve also watched “the guy” as recently as the last 2 years use deceitful methods to promote a book, get into other issues on the internet and social media due to his lack of tact and temperance.  I’ve also “watched” the guy and his church respond to a large number of former staff and members who have left citing spiritual abuse and bullying at all levels of the church. 
    Personality cults are rarely healthy.  Dictators often are good at making trains run on time.  That doesn’t excuse or justify their abuse.

  65. JeffPreuss says

    flounderfoot lailaco19 NO.  It is simply not an acceptable defense of Driscoll’s repugnant actions to declare that someone who might oppose him isn’t convicted enough or doesn’t truly follow Christ.  Driscoll’s words AND actions are deplorable, and there are many people who truly do follow Christ and Scriptures who feel that way.

    I and others do NOT believe he speaks the Gospel effectively.  He is belligerent, divisive, and not the least but humble.  He doesn’t reflect what Christ represents to many, many people.  (And, I’ve listened to and read enough of his stuff – I don’t need to do more to justify the way he handles himself.)

    I’ll echo Itail’s position of “Depends what you consider “biblical.””

  66. JeffPreuss says

    flounderfoot lailaco19 NO.  It is simply not an acceptable defense of Driscoll’s repugnant actions to declare that someone who might oppose him isn’t convicted enough or doesn’t truly follow Christ.  Driscoll’s words AND actions are deplorable, and there are many people who truly do follow Christ and Scriptures who feel that way.

    I and others do NOT believe he speaks the Gospel effectively.  He is belligerent, divisive, and not the least but humble.  He doesn’t reflect what Christ represents to many, many people.  (And, I’ve listened to and read enough of his stuff – I don’t need to do more to justify the way he handles himself.)

    I’ll echo Itail’s position of “Depends what you consider “biblical.””

  67. flounderfoot says

    ennead

    This is where it goes just to the crazy side.

    Where does he “hate” women?!!!    HE DOESN’T  What he is opposing is MEN who are not being responsible and not leading when they should be leading.

    Geez.  Maybe it isn’t the crazy side … maybe it is just plain old lying and slandering the guy.

  68. flounderfoot says

    ennead

    This is where it goes just to the crazy side.

    Where does he “hate” women?!!!    HE DOESN’T  What he is opposing is MEN who are not being responsible and not leading when they should be leading.

    Geez.  Maybe it isn’t the crazy side … maybe it is just plain old lying and slandering the guy.

  69. JeffPreuss says

    flounderfoot emergingchrist In the “heat of the moment”?

    The above links show one hundred and forty pages of him pulling this shtick.  That doesn’t show a reaction in the heat of the
    moment, it shows a months-long intent to be a sock puppet bully to people discussing aspects of faith on his church’s website.  “Now, after a nearly 2 month run…” as he HIMSELF typed.

    That’s not “heat of the moment” – it’s an apparently pathological need to be a patently unkind person.  And it’s troubling.

    You say it wasn’t “in a pastor role” as if putting on a sock puppet mask online forgives anything he said.  At the time, he was pastor of his church, interacting on his church’s website.  So, yeah, his pastor role should be held accountable for those actions.

  70. JeffPreuss says

    flounderfoot emergingchrist In the “heat of the moment”?

    The above links show one hundred and forty pages of him pulling this shtick.  That doesn’t show a reaction in the heat of the
    moment, it shows a months-long intent to be a sock puppet bully to people discussing aspects of faith on his church’s website.  “Now, after a nearly 2 month run…” as he HIMSELF typed.

    That’s not “heat of the moment” – it’s an apparently pathological need to be a patently unkind person.  And it’s troubling.

    You say it wasn’t “in a pastor role” as if putting on a sock puppet mask online forgives anything he said.  At the time, he was pastor of his church, interacting on his church’s website.  So, yeah, his pastor role should be held accountable for those actions.

  71. jander2099 says

    This certainly isn’t the first time Pastor Driscoll’s words have gotten out of hand. However, knowing him and his character, we know that he would be the first to announce that he has been audacious and offensive at times in his life. He would also certainly agree that language like this is not acceptable and that repentance is due.
    The use of our words needs to be taken very seriously. Words have the power to build up or cut others down. Words can cause irreparable damage. The bible, the living word, is clear on this.
    What bothers me more is the questionable nature of this post..  Why is it titled in the present tense? Does Pastor Driscoll imply in his book that he still holds what he said in those posts to be helpful? Does the phrase ‘it was me raging like a madman’ show a present and positive enthusiasm for the things he said?
    The author of the post arbitrates that Pastor Driscoll ‘may have made one confession too many.’ I’m not sure what that means. Shouldn’t we always be coming clean to Christ’s glory? Should we be protecting our reputation by hiding the past or should we be showing the redemptive power of God by acknowledging the past and praising God for where he has brought us now?
    Why would the author hold Pastor Driscoll to his word that he spoke 14 years ago higher than a recent renounciation of that word by the original speaker? If Pastor Driscoll has not repented yet, of course, he must do so, but he could never make enough reparations for his sin. Only Christ can do and has done that.
    It’s frightening how a post like this can so detract from the gospel. It starts under the guise of an innocent presentation of information. ‘Here’s proof of someone’s wrongdoing,’ then ‘Here’s a convenient compilation of ALL of his wrongdoing.’ Unfortunately there is no show of redemption in this. There is only defamation of character. We are all held to the same standard by God, yet we only see Pastor Driscoll’s sin.
    There are six things that the Lord hates,
    seven that are an abomination to him:
    haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
    and hands that shed innocent blood,
    a heart that devises wicked plans,
    feet that make haste to run to evil,
    s false witness who breathes out lies,
    and one who sows discord among brothers.
    (Prov 6:16-19)
    I’ll be praying for Pastor Driscoll and for you Mr. Turner. Please don’t sow the seeds of discord among Christ’s beloved bride. What Mark said was greivous, but I humbly ask you to check your own heart over this too. Christ’s grace came at a price. He doesn’t want it being cheapened and he doesn’t want those entrusted to preach his word attempting to discredit others of whom he has entrusted it to as well.

  72. jander2099 says

    This certainly isn’t the first time Pastor Driscoll’s words have gotten out of hand. However, knowing him and his character, we know that he would be the first to announce that he has been audacious and offensive at times in his life. He would also certainly agree that language like this is not acceptable and that repentance is due.
    The use of our words needs to be taken very seriously. Words have the power to build up or cut others down. Words can cause irreparable damage. The bible, the living word, is clear on this.
    What bothers me more is the questionable nature of this post..  Why is it titled in the present tense? Does Pastor Driscoll imply in his book that he still holds what he said in those posts to be helpful? Does the phrase ‘it was me raging like a madman’ show a present and positive enthusiasm for the things he said?
    The author of the post arbitrates that Pastor Driscoll ‘may have made one confession too many.’ I’m not sure what that means. Shouldn’t we always be coming clean to Christ’s glory? Should we be protecting our reputation by hiding the past or should we be showing the redemptive power of God by acknowledging the past and praising God for where he has brought us now?
    Why would the author hold Pastor Driscoll to his word that he spoke 14 years ago higher than a recent renounciation of that word by the original speaker? If Pastor Driscoll has not repented yet, of course, he must do so, but he could never make enough reparations for his sin. Only Christ can do and has done that.
    It’s frightening how a post like this can so detract from the gospel. It starts under the guise of an innocent presentation of information. ‘Here’s proof of someone’s wrongdoing,’ then ‘Here’s a convenient compilation of ALL of his wrongdoing.’ Unfortunately there is no show of redemption in this. There is only defamation of character. We are all held to the same standard by God, yet we only see Pastor Driscoll’s sin.
    There are six things that the Lord hates,
    seven that are an abomination to him:
    haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
    and hands that shed innocent blood,
    a heart that devises wicked plans,
    feet that make haste to run to evil,
    s false witness who breathes out lies,
    and one who sows discord among brothers.
    (Prov 6:16-19)
    I’ll be praying for Pastor Driscoll and for you Mr. Turner. Please don’t sow the seeds of discord among Christ’s beloved bride. What Mark said was greivous, but I humbly ask you to check your own heart over this too. Christ’s grace came at a price. He doesn’t want it being cheapened and he doesn’t want those entrusted to preach his word attempting to discredit others of whom he has entrusted it to as well.

  73. ennead says

    flounderfoot ennead 
    I didn’t say, exactly, that he hated women; I said he hated everything feminine, or everything he perceives to be feminine. Thus “pussified” (i.e. vagina-ish or womanish) is his insult of choice, and his big complaint about these men is that they’re like women. If comparing someone to a woman is your preferred way of expressing lots and lots of contempt for them, you have contempt for women. (And also for a lot of men.)

    All of his posts are filled with contemptuous hateful rage against people he views negatively. If those screeds aren’t hateful, what exactly would this man have to say to get you to agree that he is expressing hate for people?

  74. ennead says

    flounderfoot ennead 
    I didn’t say, exactly, that he hated women; I said he hated everything feminine, or everything he perceives to be feminine. Thus “pussified” (i.e. vagina-ish or womanish) is his insult of choice, and his big complaint about these men is that they’re like women. If comparing someone to a woman is your preferred way of expressing lots and lots of contempt for them, you have contempt for women. (And also for a lot of men.)

    All of his posts are filled with contemptuous hateful rage against people he views negatively. If those screeds aren’t hateful, what exactly would this man have to say to get you to agree that he is expressing hate for people?

  75. lailaco19 says

    flounderfoot

    I suggest you do your research on what feminism actually IS. Take a women’s studies course or read a feminist blog. As an actual feminist that reads up on the subject, I am telling you that you have this caricatured idea of feminism that is flat out wrong. I explained it in my comment above.

    I don’t know any feminists that would say that the latter situation was OK, unless both the woman and the man agreed that they are both happy with the arrangement (I’d find that hard to believe, but to each their own). All feminists desire is for women to have the right to choose what they want. If a woman wants to be a stay at home mom, great! If she wants to be a single working mother, that’s great too! If she wants to be the primary breadwinner and have her husband be a stay at home dad, more power to her! We just want RESPECT and the FREEDOM to choose what we want in life.

    I am glad Mark attacks abusive men, but he should practice what he preaches. I have also found that when he attacks men, he does so from a stance of being “protective” of women, as if we are defenseless 2 year olds. Instead, he should tell men to see women as equals and to stand beside them, not over them, as partners. But he cannot preach something he does not believe.

  76. lailaco19 says

    flounderfoot

    I suggest you do your research on what feminism actually IS. Take a women’s studies course or read a feminist blog. As an actual feminist that reads up on the subject, I am telling you that you have this caricatured idea of feminism that is flat out wrong. I explained it in my comment above.

    I don’t know any feminists that would say that the latter situation was OK, unless both the woman and the man agreed that they are both happy with the arrangement (I’d find that hard to believe, but to each their own). All feminists desire is for women to have the right to choose what they want. If a woman wants to be a stay at home mom, great! If she wants to be a single working mother, that’s great too! If she wants to be the primary breadwinner and have her husband be a stay at home dad, more power to her! We just want RESPECT and the FREEDOM to choose what we want in life.

    I am glad Mark attacks abusive men, but he should practice what he preaches. I have also found that when he attacks men, he does so from a stance of being “protective” of women, as if we are defenseless 2 year olds. Instead, he should tell men to see women as equals and to stand beside them, not over them, as partners. But he cannot preach something he does not believe.

  77. PastorRog77 says

    ennead flounderfoot Again, he does not hate all that is feminine. He hates that men are now more feminine than masculine. I would rather have someone take his stance and call men back to true masculinity than refuse to address the issue.

  78. PastorRog77 says

    ennead flounderfoot Again, he does not hate all that is feminine. He hates that men are now more feminine than masculine. I would rather have someone take his stance and call men back to true masculinity than refuse to address the issue.

  79. flounderfoot says

    JeffPreuss flounderfoot lailaco19

    I didn’t say “that someone who might oppose him isn’t convicted enough or doesn’t truly follow Christ.”  I challenged Iailaco19 to examine the claims of Christ because of other comments she said about Jesus.  She said she liked Jesus.  I said, that’s great, but if that’s it … you will be going to hell.  It takes more than just “liking” Jesus.  It takes submitting to him and letting him be your Lord.

    Jeff, you may not have agreed with John the Baptist either.  Which is fine.  He was belligerent, divisive, and also not very humble.  He was so decisive that he called Jewish rabbis and leaders “snakes” (basically called them sons of Satan) to their face.  He was beheaded because he chastised King Herod on his sexual sin against his brother’s wife.  People either loved or hated John the Baptist.

    Jesus praised him because he spoke boldly and with courage about sin to all parties.  John challenged people to get their hearts right with God.  Jesus called John the greatest of all prophets, despite being despised by many people.

    I would encourage you to examine the claims of Christ more.  Being a Christian doesn’t mean that everyone will like you or like what you say.  In fact it might mean that a lot of people will oppose you.  Being a Christian isn’t about what people think of you … its about how God looks at you, and whether we are being obedient to him.

    Mark Driscoll used some very harsh and crass words.  Words that were beyond what a pastor should say, even Mark.  But to slander or dismiss what he says is at your own loss … because the good news of Jesus Christ is still being proclaimed through what he says.  And if you miss that because of the sinfulness of one man, then you have missed the most important thing you could have ever had.

  80. flounderfoot says

    JeffPreuss flounderfoot lailaco19

    I didn’t say “that someone who might oppose him isn’t convicted enough or doesn’t truly follow Christ.”  I challenged Iailaco19 to examine the claims of Christ because of other comments she said about Jesus.  She said she liked Jesus.  I said, that’s great, but if that’s it … you will be going to hell.  It takes more than just “liking” Jesus.  It takes submitting to him and letting him be your Lord.

    Jeff, you may not have agreed with John the Baptist either.  Which is fine.  He was belligerent, divisive, and also not very humble.  He was so decisive that he called Jewish rabbis and leaders “snakes” (basically called them sons of Satan) to their face.  He was beheaded because he chastised King Herod on his sexual sin against his brother’s wife.  People either loved or hated John the Baptist.

    Jesus praised him because he spoke boldly and with courage about sin to all parties.  John challenged people to get their hearts right with God.  Jesus called John the greatest of all prophets, despite being despised by many people.

    I would encourage you to examine the claims of Christ more.  Being a Christian doesn’t mean that everyone will like you or like what you say.  In fact it might mean that a lot of people will oppose you.  Being a Christian isn’t about what people think of you … its about how God looks at you, and whether we are being obedient to him.

    Mark Driscoll used some very harsh and crass words.  Words that were beyond what a pastor should say, even Mark.  But to slander or dismiss what he says is at your own loss … because the good news of Jesus Christ is still being proclaimed through what he says.  And if you miss that because of the sinfulness of one man, then you have missed the most important thing you could have ever had.

  81. MicahDameron says

    jander2099 Driscoll exemplifies most of the signs of a cult leader, http://www.culteducation.com/warningsigns.html and just like a cult leader, so many of his followers are entranced and can’t see their way out.

  82. MicahDameron says

    jander2099 Driscoll exemplifies most of the signs of a cult leader, http://www.culteducation.com/warningsigns.html and just like a cult leader, so many of his followers are entranced and can’t see their way out.

  83. msatty says

    This “news” is over 14 years old. Why are we making a huge deal of it now? I would humbly suggest, that as Christ’s followers, none of us are the person we were 14 years ago. I’m certain that, as a pastor, my theology has ripened and deepened, my character has grown, and every relationship I had 14 years ago is different today because I and the individuals I love and care for are different as well. I will not defend Driscoll’s words or tone, though I will go to bat for the philosophy of calling men to Biblical masculinity to lies behind them.

  84. msatty says

    This “news” is over 14 years old. Why are we making a huge deal of it now? I would humbly suggest, that as Christ’s followers, none of us are the person we were 14 years ago. I’m certain that, as a pastor, my theology has ripened and deepened, my character has grown, and every relationship I had 14 years ago is different today because I and the individuals I love and care for are different as well. I will not defend Driscoll’s words or tone, though I will go to bat for the philosophy of calling men to Biblical masculinity to lies behind them.

  85. BrandonFroedge says

    I mean…doesn’t he kind of have a good point? I think so. It could be said differently, of course. But…why do we have to talk in such a filtered, wimpy way to start with? And why do we have to act so offended? I get what he’s saying and I think it’s worthy of discussion. I agree with the general point even though it is over-stated (he has admitted as much, of course).

  86. MicahDameron says

    It’s not the just the using of harsh words that’s the problem — Jesus used harsh words when he called the Pharisees sons of serpents; Paul used harsh words when he called everything in this life “loss” (i.e. fecal matter) compared to knowing Jesus.

    The problem is Driscoll’s self-righteous smugness, and in this case there’s definitely too much of a good thing. He could have gotten his point across in the first paragraph of his writing, and then used the remaining space to explain why he thinks that way instead of writing defamatory monologue out of his obvious insecurity as a man. Few people I know have such a shallow definition of manhood.

  87. MicahDameron says

    It’s not the just the using of harsh words that’s the problem — Jesus used harsh words when he called the Pharisees sons of serpents; Paul used harsh words when he called everything in this life “loss” (i.e. fecal matter) compared to knowing Jesus.

    The problem is Driscoll’s self-righteous smugness, and in this case there’s definitely too much of a good thing. He could have gotten his point across in the first paragraph of his writing, and then used the remaining space to explain why he thinks that way instead of writing defamatory monologue out of his obvious insecurity as a man. Few people I know have such a shallow definition of manhood.

  88. jamesallen74 says

    He has a point about how feminism is the biggest enemy pervasive in our current church. You can’t teach women to be submissive any more out of fear of offending them.

  89. jamesallen74 says

    He has a point about how feminism is the biggest enemy pervasive in our current church. You can’t teach women to be submissive any more out of fear of offending them.

  90. Christ_Fit says

    This is seriously old news and it seems more like Matt is trying to drum up sales for his book. Driscolls choice of words aside, he’s correct in how the world has become and how gender roles have been redefined… especially when viewed with biblical teaching. We’ve slipped, Mark called us out, and now folks are whining.

  91. Christ_Fit says

    This is seriously old news and it seems more like Matt is trying to drum up sales for his book. Driscolls choice of words aside, he’s correct in how the world has become and how gender roles have been redefined… especially when viewed with biblical teaching. We’ve slipped, Mark called us out, and now folks are whining.

  92. JeffPreuss says

  93. JeffPreuss says

  94. BartBreen says

    JeffPreuss Christ_Fit Interesting point.  I wonder if they’ll use designated funds and unethical marketing manipulation methods to make their books best sellers …. oh wait …. that was Driscoll …..

  95. BartBreen says

    JeffPreuss Christ_Fit Interesting point.  I wonder if they’ll use designated funds and unethical marketing manipulation methods to make their books best sellers …. oh wait …. that was Driscoll …..

  96. Christ_Fit says

    BartBreen JeffPreuss You folks get all chapped because he calls it like it is, so he becomes a target. His wordage could have been better but he’s dead on with what the Bible teaches. Folks make mistakes, he’s not the first sinner and not the last. Both Paul and Peter had constant struggles, but Jesus felt both of them were still worthy… but I guess you perfect people know better. Good luck with that and don’t read any books off the NYT bestseller list, because the majority use the same marketing tricks.

  97. Christ_Fit says

    BartBreen JeffPreuss You folks get all chapped because he calls it like it is, so he becomes a target. His wordage could have been better but he’s dead on with what the Bible teaches. Folks make mistakes, he’s not the first sinner and not the last. Both Paul and Peter had constant struggles, but Jesus felt both of them were still worthy… but I guess you perfect people know better. Good luck with that and don’t read any books off the NYT bestseller list, because the majority use the same marketing tricks.

  98. flounderfoot says

    Christ_Fit BartBreen JeffPreuss

    All this has nothing to do with Mark Driscoll and probably has more to do with sin in our own lives.  We frankly don’t like it when someone confronts us in our own sin, and Mark does that.  He is certainly a sinner too, but it doesn’t take away from the fact that he is on target with what he says most of the time. It just becomes an excuse to avoid the truth.

    I don’t agree that Mark is trying to drum up sales for his book.  This was “discovered” by those whose intent is try to destroy him as a pastor.

  99. flounderfoot says

    Christ_Fit BartBreen JeffPreuss

    All this has nothing to do with Mark Driscoll and probably has more to do with sin in our own lives.  We frankly don’t like it when someone confronts us in our own sin, and Mark does that.  He is certainly a sinner too, but it doesn’t take away from the fact that he is on target with what he says most of the time. It just becomes an excuse to avoid the truth.

    I don’t agree that Mark is trying to drum up sales for his book.  This was “discovered” by those whose intent is try to destroy him as a pastor.

  100. JeffPreuss says

    Christ_Fit BartBreen Interesting, I didn’t know I was “chapped.”  I certainly don’t feel “chapped.”

    But, nice deflection away from the refuting of your accusation that Turner is simply blogging about this to drum up book sales.
    Let’s say that JK Rowling uses her wealth to buy her way onto the NYT Best Seller list…who cares?  Literary popularity isn’t something with which I’m preoccupied, so I’m not worried if she uses this deception.
    NOW, let’s say that a faith leader who is purportedly professing the truth of the Word of our Lord and Savior uses his church’s funds to buy his way onto that same list — it’s an explicit display of dishonesty that should be anathema to a person in his position of a Christian leader.

    Oh, and I simply don’t see him as calling “it like it is” — instead it appears that he is twisting the Scripture to build up his oppressive regime of misogynists.    Many of us disagree that it’s “dead on with what the Bible teaches.”  No one here is pretending to be perfect.

  101. Christ_Fit says

    JeffPreuss Sorry but he’s not the first to do it, and certainly not the last. In fact most on that list have done it. So if you’re going to point fingers, be sure to get them all…. especially the Christian authors. Granted he’s held to a higher standard and whether he agreed with it or not, he should do the right thing now since it’s his book. 

    I don’t get the whole misogyny label folks try to give him. I’ve yet to hear or read anything that even remotely puts him in that category. I would almost label him more of a man hater because of how tough he is on men, but then again most of us act more like man boys than mature Christian men.

    What I do see is a world filled with folks who don’t want to live by the teaching of Christ and instead want to play pretend…. kinda like having a get out of hell free card to play. Most people, myself included, don’t like it when they sin and get caught. Even more try to make excuses or shift the blame just like Adam did. In the end we are either his disciples or we aren’t. Those who are have to pick up and carry on. Throwing stones at folks to divert attention off ourselves is sinful and foolish… eventually we all get caught. So man up, and stop making excuses cause you plank is getting in the way.

  102. Christ_Fit says

    JeffPreuss Sorry but he’s not the first to do it, and certainly not the last. In fact most on that list have done it. So if you’re going to point fingers, be sure to get them all…. especially the Christian authors. Granted he’s held to a higher standard and whether he agreed with it or not, he should do the right thing now since it’s his book. 

    I don’t get the whole misogyny label folks try to give him. I’ve yet to hear or read anything that even remotely puts him in that category. I would almost label him more of a man hater because of how tough he is on men, but then again most of us act more like man boys than mature Christian men.

    What I do see is a world filled with folks who don’t want to live by the teaching of Christ and instead want to play pretend…. kinda like having a get out of hell free card to play. Most people, myself included, don’t like it when they sin and get caught. Even more try to make excuses or shift the blame just like Adam did. In the end we are either his disciples or we aren’t. Those who are have to pick up and carry on. Throwing stones at folks to divert attention off ourselves is sinful and foolish… eventually we all get caught. So man up, and stop making excuses cause you plank is getting in the way.

  103. JeffPreuss says

    Christ_Fit JeffPreuss “Man up” and “stop making excuses?”  Don’t worry; I’m probably way too feminine for you to really care about my opinion.

    No one’s making excuses here.  Just calling your arguments out as you make them and responding to them as you try to deflect.  Driscoll is not looking like an exceptionally fit Christian leader.

    Again, no one here is pretending to be perfect.  I live by the teachings of Christ, and it reflects a FAR different attitude than Driscoll’s.  Just as he’s allowed to point out what he finds distasteful and unbiblical (or “unmanly), so are those of us on the other side of the fence.

    It seems like you are actually the one making excuses for Driscoll and shifting the blame, but maybe that’s just me.

    Have a great day!

  104. JeffPreuss says

    Christ_Fit JeffPreuss “Man up” and “stop making excuses?”  Don’t worry; I’m probably way too feminine for you to really care about my opinion.

    No one’s making excuses here.  Just calling your arguments out as you make them and responding to them as you try to deflect.  Driscoll is not looking like an exceptionally fit Christian leader.

    Again, no one here is pretending to be perfect.  I live by the teachings of Christ, and it reflects a FAR different attitude than Driscoll’s.  Just as he’s allowed to point out what he finds distasteful and unbiblical (or “unmanly), so are those of us on the other side of the fence.

    It seems like you are actually the one making excuses for Driscoll and shifting the blame, but maybe that’s just me.

    Have a great day!

  105. meghanphelisa says

    This is an absolutely disgraceful post.  Congrats, you’ve now got publicity just in time for your new book, and have ruined many of the reaches of a man’s ministry.  You may not approve of what Driscoll does, but as your brother in Christ, he at least deserves private discussion and acceptance of an apology.  He’s the one who outed himself on his past mistakes and does not seem to take pride in what he did .  He was not praising his actions in that book.  He is the first to say that he has done stupid things, and yet you bring up 14 year old mistakes and make them sound still relevant. 

    He is not preaching a false gospel.  he preaches Christ crucified.  He occasionally makes impulsive comments, but wasn’t that the disciple Peter’s trademark as well?  Should we be disqualified for every stupid thing we’ve said on the way to becoming more sanctified?  I certainly hope not, because we’d be missing a lot of people fighting for the good of the Gospel.
    This post makes my heart hurt and my stomach turn.  And you should be ashamed of yourself for the conflict that you have caused.  At least Driscoll saw his error and apologized.  You seem proud to attack someone and draw up mistakes they have since apologized for. 
    I am so thankful that I look to Jesus for grace instead of Christians who praise this sort of behavior. I am saddened by your lack of conviction over the division that you have shamelessly caused and continue to promote.  I hope to God that no unbelievers walk away from a glorious curiosity because of your lack of grace in this situation.

  106. BartBreen says

    The only person wo should be ashamed of these words is the one who wrote them.
    The only person responsible for the fall of Mark Driscoll is Mark Driscoll.
    Those who defend spiritual abuse carry their own shame and attempt to pass it on to others.
    Thanks for the offer but you may hang on to it as long as you want until you are ready to let it go and stop defending this abusive leader and buying into his personality cult.

  107. BartBreen says

    The only person wo should be ashamed of these words is the one who wrote them.
    The only person responsible for the fall of Mark Driscoll is Mark Driscoll.
    Those who defend spiritual abuse carry their own shame and attempt to pass it on to others.
    Thanks for the offer but you may hang on to it as long as you want until you are ready to let it go and stop defending this abusive leader and buying into his personality cult.

  108. JeffPreuss says

    BartBreen It’s amazing.  We’re seeing more accusations of this only coming up to promote Turner’s new book, completely disregarding the scores of other faith-based discussions of Driscoll’s impact on the perception of Christianity as a whole.

    I mean, heck, even Charisma News is covering this stuff, and they’re fairly goshdarn conservative.

    Do they have a book coming out, too?

  109. JeffPreuss says

    BartBreen It’s amazing.  We’re seeing more accusations of this only coming up to promote Turner’s new book, completely disregarding the scores of other faith-based discussions of Driscoll’s impact on the perception of Christianity as a whole.

    I mean, heck, even Charisma News is covering this stuff, and they’re fairly goshdarn conservative.

    Do they have a book coming out, too?

  110. BartBreen says

    JeffPreuss BartBreen Jeff, if you like to learn something you can look up the rhetorical technique you just used.  It’s called a presumptive question and is usually illustrated by the use of the classic phrase, “So, are you still beating your wife?”
    Maybe you’re aware of what you’re doing and don’t care.  Only you can answer this.  However, your desire to defend Driscoll and the entire package of Spiritual abuse taking place at Mars Hill is pretty sad.
    The facts are:
    1.  This is not new with Mark Driscoll.  It’s been happening for years.
    2.  Driscoll’s own church has had to restructure their board in an effort to rein Mark Driscoll in and in the estimation of many they have failed.  This is demonstrated by 2 recent resignations from the Mars Hill BOAA.

    3  Acts29, an organization FOUNDED by Driscoll has had to take the extraordinary act of expelling both Driscoll and Mars Hill in the last week because the damage to their organization and their ministry outweighs any benefit of continuing in view of the fact that those closest to Driscoll and Mars Hill Church have no confidence that the BOAA has any real power or intent to address the situation directly.

    Attacking the messenger doesn’t really accomplish anything other than to demonstrate that there’s note much left to defend.  Mark Driscoll has been a lightening rod for quite some time.  This isn’t anything new.  It’s simply coming to a head and all but the die-hard defenders who will defend at any cost using all forms of logical fallacies are all that’s left.  *Hint … Jeff, that’s what you are now …. someone who appears to need to defend at any cost.)
    If you want to follow the type of misogynistic teaching that got Driscoll to where he is, may I suggest you look a little harder and see if you can’t find those who promote it without swearing, without abusing staff members and their wives in their church, and who don’t misuse church funds to promote their writings.  They’re out there and then you can just focus on your need to feel superior as a male without having to take on Driscoll’s other baggage as well.
    You don’t have to defend Driscoll to follow antiquated and wrong teaching.  You can exercise your choices to find better teachers to make you feel superior to others and focus your energy there.
    And since it seems appropriate to end with this question, Jeff, Are you still bearing your wife?
    Have a nice day.  ;)

  111. BartBreen says

    JeffPreuss BartBreen Jeff, if you like to learn something you can look up the rhetorical technique you just used.  It’s called a presumptive question and is usually illustrated by the use of the classic phrase, “So, are you still beating your wife?”
    Maybe you’re aware of what you’re doing and don’t care.  Only you can answer this.  However, your desire to defend Driscoll and the entire package of Spiritual abuse taking place at Mars Hill is pretty sad.
    The facts are:
    1.  This is not new with Mark Driscoll.  It’s been happening for years.
    2.  Driscoll’s own church has had to restructure their board in an effort to rein Mark Driscoll in and in the estimation of many they have failed.  This is demonstrated by 2 recent resignations from the Mars Hill BOAA.

    3  Acts29, an organization FOUNDED by Driscoll has had to take the extraordinary act of expelling both Driscoll and Mars Hill in the last week because the damage to their organization and their ministry outweighs any benefit of continuing in view of the fact that those closest to Driscoll and Mars Hill Church have no confidence that the BOAA has any real power or intent to address the situation directly.

    Attacking the messenger doesn’t really accomplish anything other than to demonstrate that there’s note much left to defend.  Mark Driscoll has been a lightening rod for quite some time.  This isn’t anything new.  It’s simply coming to a head and all but the die-hard defenders who will defend at any cost using all forms of logical fallacies are all that’s left.  *Hint … Jeff, that’s what you are now …. someone who appears to need to defend at any cost.)
    If you want to follow the type of misogynistic teaching that got Driscoll to where he is, may I suggest you look a little harder and see if you can’t find those who promote it without swearing, without abusing staff members and their wives in their church, and who don’t misuse church funds to promote their writings.  They’re out there and then you can just focus on your need to feel superior as a male without having to take on Driscoll’s other baggage as well.
    You don’t have to defend Driscoll to follow antiquated and wrong teaching.  You can exercise your choices to find better teachers to make you feel superior to others and focus your energy there.
    And since it seems appropriate to end with this question, Jeff, Are you still bearing your wife?
    Have a nice day.  ;)

  112. JeffPreuss says

    BartBreen JeffPreuss Bart!  Hey, you misunderstood my point (which means I probably didn’t clearly make it) — I think Driscoll is not a pleasant guy!  I am not defending him whatsoever.  I was pointing out to you that it’s amusing to see people attack Turner, claiming he’s ONLY covering this to promote his book, when scores of other people are covering the story.

    It was more of a response to all Driscoll’s defenders on here who claim it’s “biblical” and that it’s just a smear campaign.

    Really.  Go back and look at what I said (and my other comments in here) – I’m not defending Driscoll at all.  I was defending Turner.  I just addressed it to you because I agree with you.  :)

    (As I said to…flounderfoot, I think…earlier, I’m probably way too feminine for them to care about my opinions of Driscoll.)

    I totally should have clarified in my first sentence that I meant accusations against Turner, that the only reason he covers this is for book promotion.

  113. JeffPreuss says

    BartBreen JeffPreuss Bart!  Hey, you misunderstood my point (which means I probably didn’t clearly make it) — I think Driscoll is not a pleasant guy!  I am not defending him whatsoever.  I was pointing out to you that it’s amusing to see people attack Turner, claiming he’s ONLY covering this to promote his book, when scores of other people are covering the story.

    It was more of a response to all Driscoll’s defenders on here who claim it’s “biblical” and that it’s just a smear campaign.

    Really.  Go back and look at what I said (and my other comments in here) – I’m not defending Driscoll at all.  I was defending Turner.  I just addressed it to you because I agree with you.  :)

    (As I said to…flounderfoot, I think…earlier, I’m probably way too feminine for them to care about my opinions of Driscoll.)

    I totally should have clarified in my first sentence that I meant accusations against Turner, that the only reason he covers this is for book promotion.

  114. BartBreen says

    JeffPreuss BartBreen No Problem Jeff and I’m sorry I misread the tone and intent.  That’s common unfortunately in written posts.  My bad and thanks for the correction.  ;)

  115. BartBreen says

    JeffPreuss BartBreen No Problem Jeff and I’m sorry I misread the tone and intent.  That’s common unfortunately in written posts.  My bad and thanks for the correction.  ;)

  116. meghanphelisa says

    JeffPreuss BartBreen JeffPreuss BartBreen  I am not defending the things Mark Driscoll said.  They were wrong and hateful and unkind and embarrassing.  Mark Driscoll has not defended the things that he said either, but apologized.   I am not upset because the things he said were condemned-they were worth condemning.  But to write someone off as a person despite their apology and attempts to change is neither Christ like nor an edifying example of the Gospel.  We’re not all sanctified yet.  Sometimes we do stupid things, even pastors sometimes do stupid things.  It’s just that the stupid things we do catch less publicity because we have less of an audience to offend. 
    I am upset about this post because it is drawing on 14 year old mistakes.  I’m confused as to the purpose of starting a witch hunt over old news.  And I’m confused as to why believers are so comfortable throwing one another under the church bus.  
    Thus, my problem is not with the content denouncing Driscoll’s posts from 14 years ago, but with the sort of person who refuses to accept a public apology and give someone a chance to change.  Are we not called to be the first to forgiveness and seeking the restoration of others?  
    I believe you can disagree with someone in love.  This post is not an example of that.
    And if I am not mistaken, this post started the most recent batch of drama.   Regardless, of whether someone beat him to it, I still do not understand the purpose of dragging up 14 year old comments that he already admitted to, apologized for, and is no longer making.  How is this making a difference for the Gospel, for the good of the church, or for the acceptance of new souls into the kingdom of God?

  117. meghanphelisa says

    JeffPreuss BartBreen JeffPreuss BartBreen  I am not defending the things Mark Driscoll said.  They were wrong and hateful and unkind and embarrassing.  Mark Driscoll has not defended the things that he said either, but apologized.   I am not upset because the things he said were condemned-they were worth condemning.  But to write someone off as a person despite their apology and attempts to change is neither Christ like nor an edifying example of the Gospel.  We’re not all sanctified yet.  Sometimes we do stupid things, even pastors sometimes do stupid things.  It’s just that the stupid things we do catch less publicity because we have less of an audience to offend. 
    I am upset about this post because it is drawing on 14 year old mistakes.  I’m confused as to the purpose of starting a witch hunt over old news.  And I’m confused as to why believers are so comfortable throwing one another under the church bus.  
    Thus, my problem is not with the content denouncing Driscoll’s posts from 14 years ago, but with the sort of person who refuses to accept a public apology and give someone a chance to change.  Are we not called to be the first to forgiveness and seeking the restoration of others?  
    I believe you can disagree with someone in love.  This post is not an example of that.
    And if I am not mistaken, this post started the most recent batch of drama.   Regardless, of whether someone beat him to it, I still do not understand the purpose of dragging up 14 year old comments that he already admitted to, apologized for, and is no longer making.  How is this making a difference for the Gospel, for the good of the church, or for the acceptance of new souls into the kingdom of God?

  118. JeffPreuss says

    meghanphelisa JeffPreuss BartBreen Why?  Probably because Driscoll has apologized for the tone and manner with which he made the comments, but famously not the content.  Possibly because there are some who have continued concerns that Driscoll is cultivating a cult of personality, and showing early warning signs of forming an actual cult.  Probably because he continues to be a faith leader of questionable integrity, making waves in an abusive manner.  Probably it’s because Mars Hill and the massive upheaval occurring there are fairly big news within the faith community.  I mean, just look at this week’s news about Acts 29.

    The specifics in this post may seem like “old news” but they certainly seem to inform Driscoll’s entire character and his body of work.  They show earlier signs of an apparent continued lack of integrity and honesty.

    But, really, if you want to ask WHY this information is being brought up now, you should ask Turner or the dozens of other bloggers who are covering him.  Or Charisma News even.  I’m just guessing at the whys.

  119. JeffPreuss says

    meghanphelisa JeffPreuss BartBreen Why?  Probably because Driscoll has apologized for the tone and manner with which he made the comments, but famously not the content.  Possibly because there are some who have continued concerns that Driscoll is cultivating a cult of personality, and showing early warning signs of forming an actual cult.  Probably because he continues to be a faith leader of questionable integrity, making waves in an abusive manner.  Probably it’s because Mars Hill and the massive upheaval occurring there are fairly big news within the faith community.  I mean, just look at this week’s news about Acts 29.

    The specifics in this post may seem like “old news” but they certainly seem to inform Driscoll’s entire character and his body of work.  They show earlier signs of an apparent continued lack of integrity and honesty.

    But, really, if you want to ask WHY this information is being brought up now, you should ask Turner or the dozens of other bloggers who are covering him.  Or Charisma News even.  I’m just guessing at the whys.

  120. meghanphelisa says

    JeffPreuss meghanphelisa BartBreen
    “The content of my postings to that discussion board does not reflect how I feel, or how I would conduct myself today,” he told his church members Friday. “Over the past 14 years I have changed, and, by God’s grace, hope to continue to change. I also hope people I have offended and disappointed will forgive me.”  taken from http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2014/august/mark-driscoll-crude-comments-william-wallace-mars-hill.html?paging=off
    As someone who has followed his work over several years, I do not see this as a pattern.  He has become progressively more forgiving and graceful.  I have heard him make any remarks even close to comparable to these old ones over the years I have followed his sermons, blogs, etc.  
    Once something resurfaces like this, of course it’s going to travel.  It’s interesting and some people find this sort of dirt fun.  I find it heart breaking how easily we write off other believers. 
    As far as the cult-  a surprising number of churches are labeled cults, especially by disgruntled past members (who seem to be the fuel behind the concerns).  I’m pretty careful with the title, and will definitely be doing some research on this one, but currently see it to be pretty unfounded.

  121. meghanphelisa says

    JeffPreuss meghanphelisa BartBreen
    “The content of my postings to that discussion board does not reflect how I feel, or how I would conduct myself today,” he told his church members Friday. “Over the past 14 years I have changed, and, by God’s grace, hope to continue to change. I also hope people I have offended and disappointed will forgive me.”  taken from http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2014/august/mark-driscoll-crude-comments-william-wallace-mars-hill.html?paging=off
    As someone who has followed his work over several years, I do not see this as a pattern.  He has become progressively more forgiving and graceful.  I have heard him make any remarks even close to comparable to these old ones over the years I have followed his sermons, blogs, etc.  
    Once something resurfaces like this, of course it’s going to travel.  It’s interesting and some people find this sort of dirt fun.  I find it heart breaking how easily we write off other believers. 
    As far as the cult-  a surprising number of churches are labeled cults, especially by disgruntled past members (who seem to be the fuel behind the concerns).  I’m pretty careful with the title, and will definitely be doing some research on this one, but currently see it to be pretty unfounded.

  122. JeffPreuss says

    @meghanphelisa @JeffPreuss @BartBreen I’d not seen what he said in that day.  Up until that point, either he hadn’t apologized for WHAT he said, or it was fairly well unreported.

    Still, I would counter your accusation that Turner did this for book publicity – the date he posted this blog entry was the same date that Mars Hill dissenters publicized the 14-year old rant. (Links in the article you posted.)  So, rather than assuming that Turner himself is trying to tear down the man, you might wonder aloud at why former members and leaders of his church would make this public now.  Turner and many others picked up on it, but people who used to be part of Driscoll’s “flock” thought it was relevant to bring it to light.  These former members are the ones who are alleging abuse of power and cult of personality in a public manner – it’s open for discussion and different viewpoints.

    Has he become more forgiving and graceful?  I don’t know.  Great if he has!  May he continue to grow as an example unto Christ.

  123. JeffPreuss says

    @meghanphelisa @JeffPreuss @BartBreen I’d not seen what he said in that day.  Up until that point, either he hadn’t apologized for WHAT he said, or it was fairly well unreported.

    Still, I would counter your accusation that Turner did this for book publicity – the date he posted this blog entry was the same date that Mars Hill dissenters publicized the 14-year old rant. (Links in the article you posted.)  So, rather than assuming that Turner himself is trying to tear down the man, you might wonder aloud at why former members and leaders of his church would make this public now.  Turner and many others picked up on it, but people who used to be part of Driscoll’s “flock” thought it was relevant to bring it to light.  These former members are the ones who are alleging abuse of power and cult of personality in a public manner – it’s open for discussion and different viewpoints.

    Has he become more forgiving and graceful?  I don’t know.  Great if he has!  May he continue to grow as an example unto Christ.

  124. Christ_Fit says

    JeffPreuss 

    Matt’s website is the one that’s stirred up the backlash. When you google Mark Driscoll “Pussified” his is the number 1 hit. Sorry but it’s a little too convenient with the timing of his book released, and Matt has yet to defend this.

    I find to many “Christians” want to edit the bible to their liking, and get mad/offended when they get caught. Again I challenge you to prove he’s guilty of misogyny. Poor word choice yes, misogyny No.

  125. Christ_Fit says

    JeffPreuss 

    Matt’s website is the one that’s stirred up the backlash. When you google Mark Driscoll “Pussified” his is the number 1 hit. Sorry but it’s a little too convenient with the timing of his book released, and Matt has yet to defend this.

    I find to many “Christians” want to edit the bible to their liking, and get mad/offended when they get caught. Again I challenge you to prove he’s guilty of misogyny. Poor word choice yes, misogyny No.

  126. MicahDameron says

    @Christ_Fit If MD didn’t want the verbal equivalent of Nazi hate speech to boost someone else’s book sales, he shouldn’t have said what he did. Not that it is going to boost his book sales anyway, because if you look at the alexa ratings for this site, the daily pageviews per hours are 11.55% down from last month, and the time spent on the site is down 6% from last month, so your argument that it’s boosting book sales is nothing short of completely false.

  127. MicahDameron says

    @Christ_Fit If MD didn’t want the verbal equivalent of Nazi hate speech to boost someone else’s book sales, he shouldn’t have said what he did. Not that it is going to boost his book sales anyway, because if you look at the alexa ratings for this site, the daily pageviews per hours are 11.55% down from last month, and the time spent on the site is down 6% from last month, so your argument that it’s boosting book sales is nothing short of completely false.

  128. MicahDameron says

    Alexa ranks websites on several metrics and is considered the premier tool for gleaning web domain data. Nothing indicates that this post about MD has done any more to boost his book sales, than any other post. In fact he may have taken a hit for sharing what he believes.

  129. MicahDameron says

    Alexa ranks websites on several metrics and is considered the premier tool for gleaning web domain data. Nothing indicates that this post about MD has done any more to boost his book sales, than any other post. In fact he may have taken a hit for sharing what he believes.

  130. BartBreen says

    meghanphelisa JeffPreuss BartBreen No.  This post did not start this most recent drama.  It’s been going on for years and building.  It’s the reason why, before this even came out (and it came out based upon Mark Driscoll’s own admission that he wrote it) Mark Driscoll is not on Social Media now and why his church is reorganizing to try and address the situation.
    This isn’t about Mark Driscoll as a person.  I don’t know Mark Driscoll as a person and frankly, I don’t have to, to address what he does as a public person.  Driscoll has chosen to be a public person.  He’s chosen to write books.  He chose to use church money to promote one of those book unethically.  He chose to promote and distribute his sermons and teaching.  He’s promoted himself as a teacher, pastor and public spokesperson for his beliefs and withing the Neo-Reformed and Neo-Calvinist movement.
    He founded an organization for planting similar churches that now has had enough and removed him and his church for the harm THEY (not those challenging them) have done to their reputation and ability to minister.  They waited and trusted that Mars Hill Church and their leadership would deal with the situation and they haven’t.
    It all ties together and shows a continued pattern of unrepentance on the part of MD who simply says the minimum necessary to address any immediate situation, after he’s waited for things to go public and then his church appears unwilling to confront and actually embark on some form of discipline, probably because they fear that he’s the face of that church and donations will go down.
    This is typical of what happens then there’s a personality cult built on one person and a financial infrastructure that can collapse.  Finances become more important than addressing the situation and confronting the out of control leader.
    That’s all this is, in my opinion.
    The problem is not the people talking about it.  Public leadership invites such talk voluntarily.  The only people who can address this and show some integrity are Mark Driscoll and for the leadership of his church to grow a spine and deal with it.
    It’s pretty ironic in my opinion, that Driscoll would probably he the first to say that of others and question their manhood for being whimps on an issue like this.
    Now he has an opportunity to show he’s more than talk, and so far, he hasn’t.

  131. BartBreen says

    meghanphelisa JeffPreuss BartBreen No.  This post did not start this most recent drama.  It’s been going on for years and building.  It’s the reason why, before this even came out (and it came out based upon Mark Driscoll’s own admission that he wrote it) Mark Driscoll is not on Social Media now and why his church is reorganizing to try and address the situation.
    This isn’t about Mark Driscoll as a person.  I don’t know Mark Driscoll as a person and frankly, I don’t have to, to address what he does as a public person.  Driscoll has chosen to be a public person.  He’s chosen to write books.  He chose to use church money to promote one of those book unethically.  He chose to promote and distribute his sermons and teaching.  He’s promoted himself as a teacher, pastor and public spokesperson for his beliefs and withing the Neo-Reformed and Neo-Calvinist movement.
    He founded an organization for planting similar churches that now has had enough and removed him and his church for the harm THEY (not those challenging them) have done to their reputation and ability to minister.  They waited and trusted that Mars Hill Church and their leadership would deal with the situation and they haven’t.
    It all ties together and shows a continued pattern of unrepentance on the part of MD who simply says the minimum necessary to address any immediate situation, after he’s waited for things to go public and then his church appears unwilling to confront and actually embark on some form of discipline, probably because they fear that he’s the face of that church and donations will go down.
    This is typical of what happens then there’s a personality cult built on one person and a financial infrastructure that can collapse.  Finances become more important than addressing the situation and confronting the out of control leader.
    That’s all this is, in my opinion.
    The problem is not the people talking about it.  Public leadership invites such talk voluntarily.  The only people who can address this and show some integrity are Mark Driscoll and for the leadership of his church to grow a spine and deal with it.
    It’s pretty ironic in my opinion, that Driscoll would probably he the first to say that of others and question their manhood for being whimps on an issue like this.
    Now he has an opportunity to show he’s more than talk, and so far, he hasn’t.

  132. BartBreen says

    Christ_Fit JeffPreuss I quote from Mark Driscoll himself.  If you don’t believe this is misogyny, then you don’t know what the word means.
    “We could get every man, real man as opposed to pussified James Dobson
    knock-off crying Promise Keeping homoerotic worship loving mama’s boy
    sensitive emasculated neutered exact male replica evangellyfish, and
    have a conference in a phone booth. It all began with Adam, the first of
    the pussified nation, who kept his mouth shut and watched everything
    fall headlong down the slippery slide of hell/feminism when he shut his
    mouth and listened to his wife who thought Satan was a good theologian
    when he should have lead [sic] her and exercised his delegated authority
    as king of the planet. As a result, he was cursed for listening to his
    wife and every man since has been his [sic] pussified sit quietly by and
    watch a nation of men be raised by bitter penis envying burned
    feministed single mothers who make sure that Johnny grows up to be a
    very nice woman who sits down to pee.”

  133. BartBreen says

    Christ_Fit JeffPreuss I quote from Mark Driscoll himself.  If you don’t believe this is misogyny, then you don’t know what the word means.
    “We could get every man, real man as opposed to pussified James Dobson
    knock-off crying Promise Keeping homoerotic worship loving mama’s boy
    sensitive emasculated neutered exact male replica evangellyfish, and
    have a conference in a phone booth. It all began with Adam, the first of
    the pussified nation, who kept his mouth shut and watched everything
    fall headlong down the slippery slide of hell/feminism when he shut his
    mouth and listened to his wife who thought Satan was a good theologian
    when he should have lead [sic] her and exercised his delegated authority
    as king of the planet. As a result, he was cursed for listening to his
    wife and every man since has been his [sic] pussified sit quietly by and
    watch a nation of men be raised by bitter penis envying burned
    feministed single mothers who make sure that Johnny grows up to be a
    very nice woman who sits down to pee.”

  134. JeffPreuss says

    Christ_Fit JeffPreuss
    “Matt’s website is the one that’s stirred up the backlash. When you
    google Mark Driscoll “Pussified” his is the number 1 hit. Sorry but it’s
    a little too convenient with the timing of his book released, and Matt
    has yet to defend this.”
    So, it’s the number 1 hit on Google?  That doesn’t list things in chronological order, you realize, right?  Stating this is the ONE website that has stirred up backlash ignores Throckmorton, christianpost, Jezebel, marshillrefuge, the stranger…just to name a very FEW other websites that “stirred up the backlash” within 3 days of the ex-MH members releasing the documents.

    Your book angle argument just doesn’t hold water when there’s so much evidence of other people discussing Driscoll in the same time frame.

  135. JeffPreuss says

    Christ_Fit JeffPreuss
    “Matt’s website is the one that’s stirred up the backlash. When you
    google Mark Driscoll “Pussified” his is the number 1 hit. Sorry but it’s
    a little too convenient with the timing of his book released, and Matt
    has yet to defend this.”
    So, it’s the number 1 hit on Google?  That doesn’t list things in chronological order, you realize, right?  Stating this is the ONE website that has stirred up backlash ignores Throckmorton, christianpost, Jezebel, marshillrefuge, the stranger…just to name a very FEW other websites that “stirred up the backlash” within 3 days of the ex-MH members releasing the documents.

    Your book angle argument just doesn’t hold water when there’s so much evidence of other people discussing Driscoll in the same time frame.

  136. sbgdelrayshane says

    What he said is sadly do true…as a pastor and a man of God he is obviously in the wrong but the point he is trying to get across is spot on with what is wrong with particularly white America today

  137. kringlebertfistyebuns says

    flounderfoot ennead  In 20+ years online, one thing has become clear:

    When people are concealed behind a shield of anonymity, they feel much freer to speak from their hearts.  He may or may not “hate” women, but by these words (and his subsequent words and actions), he certainly seems to nurse a contempt for all things feminine.

  138. kringlebertfistyebuns says

    flounderfoot ennead  In 20+ years online, one thing has become clear:

    When people are concealed behind a shield of anonymity, they feel much freer to speak from their hearts.  He may or may not “hate” women, but by these words (and his subsequent words and actions), he certainly seems to nurse a contempt for all things feminine.

  139. jinanorah says

    BartBreen JeffPreuss Bart, I love how you lambaste your Brother-in-Christ and basically mock him for defending Pastor Mark and then tell him to “have a nice day”.  Typical.

  140. jinanorah says

    BartBreen JeffPreuss Bart, I love how you lambaste your Brother-in-Christ and basically mock him for defending Pastor Mark and then tell him to “have a nice day”.  Typical.

  141. jinanorah says

    meghanphelisa JeffPreuss BartBreen Meghan, you’re the only person here that actually makes sense and isn’t denouncing Mark Driscoll with all their might.  Shame on people for jumping on the Flog-Mark Driscoll bandwagon.  He’s a man of God who has made some mistakes.  He has apologized and repented of those mistakes.  If God is willing to grant grace, who are we not to?

  142. jinanorah says

    meghanphelisa JeffPreuss BartBreen Meghan, you’re the only person here that actually makes sense and isn’t denouncing Mark Driscoll with all their might.  Shame on people for jumping on the Flog-Mark Driscoll bandwagon.  He’s a man of God who has made some mistakes.  He has apologized and repented of those mistakes.  If God is willing to grant grace, who are we not to?

  143. BartBreen says

    It’s even better than that. I apologized. He accepted and we’ve become friends behind the scenes …. and that bothers you? Is that typical of you?
    That’s what a real apology looks like. If you’ve been watching Driscoll, maybe you haven’t seen anything like that before and that’s why you’re confused.

  144. BartBreen says

    It’s even better than that. I apologized. He accepted and we’ve become friends behind the scenes …. and that bothers you? Is that typical of you?
    That’s what a real apology looks like. If you’ve been watching Driscoll, maybe you haven’t seen anything like that before and that’s why you’re confused.

  145. JeffPreuss says

    BartBreen Oh, gosh, he’s talking about you lambasting me?  I chalk that up to a simple misunderstanding.  My wording wasn’t necessarily the clearest, and emotions and passions can run high when it comes to matters of faith.

    “Have a great day!” is something I usually say, even to those I consider the most strident of opponents.  Because, as a Christian, I even want those with whom I vehemently disagree to have a nice day.  And, I really mean it.  I have never wished ill upon my “enemies,” as tempting as it might be.

    But, yeah, @jinanorah, Bart and I worked things out.  He’s a good guy, who quite handily owned up to and part he had in the confusion between us.  He apologized and meant it.

  146. JeffPreuss says

    BartBreen Oh, gosh, he’s talking about you lambasting me?  I chalk that up to a simple misunderstanding.  My wording wasn’t necessarily the clearest, and emotions and passions can run high when it comes to matters of faith.

    “Have a great day!” is something I usually say, even to those I consider the most strident of opponents.  Because, as a Christian, I even want those with whom I vehemently disagree to have a nice day.  And, I really mean it.  I have never wished ill upon my “enemies,” as tempting as it might be.

    But, yeah, @jinanorah, Bart and I worked things out.  He’s a good guy, who quite handily owned up to and part he had in the confusion between us.  He apologized and meant it.

  147. otr214425 says

    VIRUS REMOVAL
    Is Your Computer Sluggish or Plagued With a Virus? – If So you Need Online
    Tech Repairs
    As a leader in online computer
    repair, Online Tech Repairs Inc has the experience to deliver professional
    system optimization and virus removal.Headquartered in Great Neck, New York our
    certified technicians have been providing online computer repair and virus
    removal for customers around the world since 2004.
    Our three step system is easy to
    use; and provides you a safe, unobtrusive, and cost effective alternative to
    your computer service needs. By using state-of-the-art technology our computer
    experts can diagnose, and repair your computer system through the internet, no
    matter where you are.
    Our technician will guide you
    through the installation of Online Tech Repair Inc secure software. This
    software allows your dedicated computer expert to see and operate your computer
    just as if he was in the room with you. That means you don’t have to unplug
    everything and bring it to our shop, or have a stranger tramping through your
    home.
    From our remote location the Online
    Tech Repairs.com expert can handle any computer issue you want addressed, like:

    – System Optimization
    – How it works Software Installations or Upgrades
    – How it works Virus Removal
    – How it works Home Network Set-ups

    Just to name a few.
    If you are unsure of what the
    problem may be, that is okay. We can run a complete diagnostic on your system
    and fix the problems we encounter. When we are done our software is removed;
    leaving you with a safe, secure and properly functioning system. The whole
    process usually takes less than an hour. You probably couldn’t even get your
    computer to your local repair shop that fast!
    Call us now for a FREE COMPUTER DIAGONISTIC
    using DISCOUNT CODE (otr214425@gmail.com) on +1-914-613-3786 or chat with us on http://www.onlinetechrepairs.com/.

  148. otr214425 says

    Problem:
    HP Printer not connecting to my laptop.        
    I had an issue while connecting my 2
    year old HP printer to my brother’s laptop that I had borrowed for starting my
    own business. I used a quick google search to fix the problem but that did not
    help me.
    I then decided to get professional
    help to solve my problem. After having received many quotations from various
    companies, i decided to go ahead with Online Tech Repair (http://www.onlinetechrepairs.com/).
    Reasons I chose them over the
    others:
    1) They were extremely friendly and
    patient with me during my initial discussions and responded promptly to my
    request.
    2) Their prices were extremely
    reasonable.
    3) They were ready and willing to
    walk me through the entire process step by step and were on call with me till i
    got it fixed.
    How did they do it
    1) They first asked me to state my
    problem clearly and asked me a few questions. This was done to detect any
    physical connectivity issues with the printer.
    2) After having answered this, they
    confirmed that the printer and the laptop were functioning correctly.
    3) They then, asked me if they could
    access my laptop remotely to troubleshoot the problem and fix it. I agreed.
    4) One of the tech support
    executives accessed my laptop and started troubleshooting.
    5) I sat back and watched as the
    tech support executive was navigating my laptop to spot the issue. The
    issue was fixed.
    6) I was told that it was due to an
    older version of the driver that had been installed.
    My Experience
    I loved the entire friendly
    conversation that took place with them. They understood my needs clearly and
    acted upon the solution immediately. Being a technical noob, i sometimes find
    it difficult to communicate with tech support teams. It was a very different
    experience with the guys at Online Tech Repairs. You can check out their
    website http://www.onlinetechrepairs.com/
    or call them on 1-914-613-3786.
    Would definitely recommend this
    service to anyone who needs help fixing their computers.
    Thanks
    a ton guys. Great Job….!!

  149. mdcraig says

    To quote Gloria Steinam, “this made me feel like a Jew reading a Nazi manual.” Appalling, adolescent, misogynistic and not in any way reflective of Jesus Christ, This guy needs to step back, get quiet and let the spotlight shine on somebody else. Clearly it has corrupted him.

  150. mdcraig says

    To quote Gloria Steinam, “this made me feel like a Jew reading a Nazi manual.” Appalling, adolescent, misogynistic and not in any way reflective of Jesus Christ, This guy needs to step back, get quiet and let the spotlight shine on somebody else. Clearly it has corrupted him.

  151. MaynardCastille says

    I just wandered into this event. So Far, the impression I am receiving, is that – in this church are the usual contingent of luke-warm and politically left people who take umbrage at the notion that men should be men and women should be women. When men/women take umbrage at that, it’s either because they are basically unaware that that is exactly the view that the Word of God sanctions and repeats often and because these people are usually more humanistic in nature than Christian. 
    Yes , it appears,  that if Driscoll is a “lightening Rod”. It looks to me, from what I have seen so far , that it’s because he is uncompromising about his defense of the concept of manhood as it is enunciated in the New Testament. No, the New Testament doesn’t use the word “pussified” . But how can supposedly Christian men can go after a Pastor for using that word – knowing the deep separation between role and performance of men and women that is clearly stated in the NT – and viewing and knowing the actual “pussification” that we see all around us and is so evident to us all.  This therefore shows me that his critics are all about “style and political disagreement” and may be masquerading under a “Christian” front. 

    I’m not a member – But – I think these protestors are the ones who should be censured – from what I have seen so far. 

    Lastly, I’m older and so is this pastor. We grew up in a world where there were no gay prom queens. No men and women walking incessantly about our cities , holding hands and kissing. No ‘gay clubs’ in the high schools. No “gay” activists brought into the secondary schools to propagandize for same sex behaviors – under the guise of “acceptance”. 

    The world these critics inhabit seems to ignore this striking and real and tremendous change that has shortly taken place in your communities and cities. And I have NO doubt it is because humanistic worldlings have infiltrated Churches like this one in America. 

    It’s YOU – not this Pastor that is bringing in error and I think it’s many of his critics that are responsible for the terrible carnage that is being produced in the youth of this nation. The youth of America  know you stand for nothing but your own philosophies. 

    Now if the above does NOT apply to you ..then that is good.

  152. MaynardCastille says

    I just wandered into this event. So Far, the impression I am receiving, is that – in this church are the usual contingent of luke-warm and politically left people who take umbrage at the notion that men should be men and women should be women. When men/women take umbrage at that, it’s either because they are basically unaware that that is exactly the view that the Word of God sanctions and repeats often and because these people are usually more humanistic in nature than Christian. 
    Yes , it appears,  that if Driscoll is a “lightening Rod”. It looks to me, from what I have seen so far , that it’s because he is uncompromising about his defense of the concept of manhood as it is enunciated in the New Testament. No, the New Testament doesn’t use the word “pussified” . But how can supposedly Christian men can go after a Pastor for using that word – knowing the deep separation between role and performance of men and women that is clearly stated in the NT – and viewing and knowing the actual “pussification” that we see all around us and is so evident to us all.  This therefore shows me that his critics are all about “style and political disagreement” and may be masquerading under a “Christian” front. 

    I’m not a member – But – I think these protestors are the ones who should be censured – from what I have seen so far. 

    Lastly, I’m older and so is this pastor. We grew up in a world where there were no gay prom queens. No men and women walking incessantly about our cities , holding hands and kissing. No ‘gay clubs’ in the high schools. No “gay” activists brought into the secondary schools to propagandize for same sex behaviors – under the guise of “acceptance”. 

    The world these critics inhabit seems to ignore this striking and real and tremendous change that has shortly taken place in your communities and cities. And I have NO doubt it is because humanistic worldlings have infiltrated Churches like this one in America. 

    It’s YOU – not this Pastor that is bringing in error and I think it’s many of his critics that are responsible for the terrible carnage that is being produced in the youth of this nation. The youth of America  know you stand for nothing but your own philosophies. 

    Now if the above does NOT apply to you ..then that is good.

  153. jinanorah says

    JeffPreuss BartBreen Jeff, thank you for clarifying that.  Bart, again, you respond with malice “Maybe you haven’t seen anything like that before and that’s why you’re confused”.  I’m not confused about anything except why you think it’s acceptable to pull your passive/aggressiveness on me.  You have a blessed day.  (not sarcastically).

  154. jinanorah says

    JeffPreuss BartBreen Jeff, thank you for clarifying that.  Bart, again, you respond with malice “Maybe you haven’t seen anything like that before and that’s why you’re confused”.  I’m not confused about anything except why you think it’s acceptable to pull your passive/aggressiveness on me.  You have a blessed day.  (not sarcastically).

  155. flounderfoot says

    BartBreen Christ_Fit JeffPreuss

    Bart, misogymy is “hatred of women”.  

    I’d suggest that you don’t judge the heart of a man, because frankly it isn’t your job and just aren’t qualified for it.  If you find yourself doing it, you should probably take all of the contexts of what someone says … not bits and pieces of it to make your point.

    What Mark said was crass.  But it wasn’t hateful towards women.  It might have been angry towards women that tell men that they should act like a woman and not be responsible for their own actions.  But that is very different from “hatred of women.”

    I actually agree with the anger that Mark has.  Because the fruit of it is men that do not lead, do not take care of their wives and children, and do not act like spiritual leaders that God has called them to be.  I hate that behavior, because … it hurts women and children.  Having a “pussified” man, is hurtful to women.

    If you honestly wanted to know the character of the man’s heart, then you would recognize how he treats and honors his wife and daughters.  If you want to slander a person’s character, then you take bits and pieces of what he says to pull him down and boost yourself up.

    I am not a member of Mars Hill.  But I strongly appreciate the honest language that Mark Driscoll shares in his sermons and wished that more pastors would speak as the men that God has called them to be.  The ranting done 14 years ago … doesn’t describe who the person is today.

  156. flounderfoot says

    BartBreen Christ_Fit JeffPreuss

    Bart, misogymy is “hatred of women”.  

    I’d suggest that you don’t judge the heart of a man, because frankly it isn’t your job and just aren’t qualified for it.  If you find yourself doing it, you should probably take all of the contexts of what someone says … not bits and pieces of it to make your point.

    What Mark said was crass.  But it wasn’t hateful towards women.  It might have been angry towards women that tell men that they should act like a woman and not be responsible for their own actions.  But that is very different from “hatred of women.”

    I actually agree with the anger that Mark has.  Because the fruit of it is men that do not lead, do not take care of their wives and children, and do not act like spiritual leaders that God has called them to be.  I hate that behavior, because … it hurts women and children.  Having a “pussified” man, is hurtful to women.

    If you honestly wanted to know the character of the man’s heart, then you would recognize how he treats and honors his wife and daughters.  If you want to slander a person’s character, then you take bits and pieces of what he says to pull him down and boost yourself up.

    I am not a member of Mars Hill.  But I strongly appreciate the honest language that Mark Driscoll shares in his sermons and wished that more pastors would speak as the men that God has called them to be.  The ranting done 14 years ago … doesn’t describe who the person is today.

  157. mdcraig says

    flounderfoot BartBreen Christ_Fit JeffPreuss

    “Pussifed” is offensive to THIS woman and the suggestion that only men are fit for leadership or that Christian marriage couldn’t possibly exist between equals who lead together is just as offensive. Remember that the first three people to spread the Gospel were the women at the tomb. You might also recall that Christ insisted that Mary and Martha join the theological discussion after dinner, rather than cleaning up after men, as was their conventional role. He always supported the dignity of women. Hopefully Driscoll has grown up a bit since letting loose with his misogynistic screed. Some women are called to leadership roles. Perhaps Driscoll should step aside and see what he might learn from them.

  158. mdcraig says

    flounderfoot BartBreen Christ_Fit JeffPreuss

    “Pussifed” is offensive to THIS woman and the suggestion that only men are fit for leadership or that Christian marriage couldn’t possibly exist between equals who lead together is just as offensive. Remember that the first three people to spread the Gospel were the women at the tomb. You might also recall that Christ insisted that Mary and Martha join the theological discussion after dinner, rather than cleaning up after men, as was their conventional role. He always supported the dignity of women. Hopefully Driscoll has grown up a bit since letting loose with his misogynistic screed. Some women are called to leadership roles. Perhaps Driscoll should step aside and see what he might learn from them.

  159. mdcraig says

    kringlebertfistyebuns flounderfoot ennead
    Completely agree. In his remarks, Driscoll clearly equates femininity with weakness and his own apparent fear of castration. When a woman is wise, strong, and devout, is it so incomprehensible the God might have big plans for her in this world? Or should she cower in the corner and endure the insults of a man like Driscoll? Jesus consistently treated women with respect and welcomed them into full membership in the body of believers, despite the best efforts of guys like Driscoll–and there have always been guys like Driscoll–to silence them.

  160. mdcraig says

    flounderfoot HyperSpiral
    If acting like a man means having delusions of grandeur, acting like a belligerent bully, discounting their wisdom and failing to acknowledge that God values your sisters every bit as much as He values you, then, yes, evil.

  161. mdcraig says

    flounderfoot HyperSpiral
    If acting like a man means having delusions of grandeur, acting like a belligerent bully, discounting their wisdom and failing to acknowledge that God values your sisters every bit as much as He values you, then, yes, evil.

  162. flounderfoot says

    mdcraig flounderfoot HyperSpiral

    “failing to acknowledge that God values your sisters every bit as much as He values you”

    Problem is, this part isn’t true.  

    So I guess then, “evil” might also be slandering someone and telling a lie about them.  Evil comes in many forms.

    I’m not a member of Mars Hill.  Just someone tired of pathetic “Christian” men who attack the character of another man because they don’t like the “tone” of how he preaches the gospel.  Frankly, you would have probably done the same with John the Baptist and who knows, maybe even Jesus because you didn’t like his tone when he talked about Hell and turned over the money changer’s tables.  (I’m not comparing Mark Driscoll to Jesus, but Jesus ridiculed the religious people of his day because they called John the Baptist demon possessed and called Him “one who hangs around with drunks and sinners”).  Problem was they liked to judge and condemn, and yet were sinners just like us.

  163. flounderfoot says

    mdcraig flounderfoot HyperSpiral

    “failing to acknowledge that God values your sisters every bit as much as He values you”

    Problem is, this part isn’t true.  

    So I guess then, “evil” might also be slandering someone and telling a lie about them.  Evil comes in many forms.

    I’m not a member of Mars Hill.  Just someone tired of pathetic “Christian” men who attack the character of another man because they don’t like the “tone” of how he preaches the gospel.  Frankly, you would have probably done the same with John the Baptist and who knows, maybe even Jesus because you didn’t like his tone when he talked about Hell and turned over the money changer’s tables.  (I’m not comparing Mark Driscoll to Jesus, but Jesus ridiculed the religious people of his day because they called John the Baptist demon possessed and called Him “one who hangs around with drunks and sinners”).  Problem was they liked to judge and condemn, and yet were sinners just like us.

  164. flounderfoot says

    mdcraig kringlebertfistyebuns flounderfoot ennead

    “his own apparent fear of castration”

    Okay.  This is just plain funny.  I am so glad that in your wisdom and insight you have uncovered the true cause of Mark Driscoll’s “hate”.

    I conceal behind a psuedoname because years ago I received a death threat from a blog and it freaked my wife out.  To honor her, I use a pseudoname.  Now it does leave the door a little open to be more confrontational, but I’m not doing it because I’m a coward or I “hate” women.  I’m doing it to honor my wife.

    Yes, Jesus did treat women with incredible amount of respect.  He also treated men with respect and didn’t slander them.

  165. flounderfoot says

    mdcraig kringlebertfistyebuns flounderfoot ennead

    “his own apparent fear of castration”

    Okay.  This is just plain funny.  I am so glad that in your wisdom and insight you have uncovered the true cause of Mark Driscoll’s “hate”.

    I conceal behind a psuedoname because years ago I received a death threat from a blog and it freaked my wife out.  To honor her, I use a pseudoname.  Now it does leave the door a little open to be more confrontational, but I’m not doing it because I’m a coward or I “hate” women.  I’m doing it to honor my wife.

    Yes, Jesus did treat women with incredible amount of respect.  He also treated men with respect and didn’t slander them.

  166. mdcraig says

    flounderfoot mdcraig kringlebertfistyebuns ennead  With all due respect to you and your wife, what Driscoll said in a public forum is so impassioned in its misogyny that one absolutely has to question what about women enrages him so. What would cause a nominal Christian to reduce us to our private parts so as to insult us? I didn’t slander him; he shamed himself — and it’s not a stretch to assume that there’s some serious underlying pathology there. When it comes to the role of women in life, and in the body of Christ, I say why don’t we let women decide what God is calling them to do and let the Mark Driscolls of the world back off.

  167. mdcraig says

    flounderfoot mdcraig kringlebertfistyebuns ennead  With all due respect to you and your wife, what Driscoll said in a public forum is so impassioned in its misogyny that one absolutely has to question what about women enrages him so. What would cause a nominal Christian to reduce us to our private parts so as to insult us? I didn’t slander him; he shamed himself — and it’s not a stretch to assume that there’s some serious underlying pathology there. When it comes to the role of women in life, and in the body of Christ, I say why don’t we let women decide what God is calling them to do and let the Mark Driscolls of the world back off.

  168. BartBreen says

    flounderfoot mdcraig HyperSpiral Given that Mark Driscoll is now under discipline (or at least the attempt to create the illusion of it) at Mars Hill and Mars Hill itself has been thrown out of it’s relationship with other churches, could we agree that characterizing Mark Driscoll as just a little too testosteronely enriched is like suggesting a neandertal would be a better church member if we just got him in a tuxedo?
    For crying out loud, either find another male role model who can scratch himself and fart at the same time, or find another tailor who can let that tuxedo out and make that caveman look flashy!

    It’s over! Mark’s ability to lead has killed that church and it’s time to move on.
    The horse is dead.  The testosterone has been beat out of it and what started out as a well rounded stallion is now a flat filly!
    Nothing to see here folks!  Please keep moving on.  If you’d like to spend some time in self-flagellation, please go to the right and John Piper will be with you shortly,

  169. BartBreen says

    flounderfoot mdcraig HyperSpiral Given that Mark Driscoll is now under discipline (or at least the attempt to create the illusion of it) at Mars Hill and Mars Hill itself has been thrown out of it’s relationship with other churches, could we agree that characterizing Mark Driscoll as just a little too testosteronely enriched is like suggesting a neandertal would be a better church member if we just got him in a tuxedo?
    For crying out loud, either find another male role model who can scratch himself and fart at the same time, or find another tailor who can let that tuxedo out and make that caveman look flashy!

    It’s over! Mark’s ability to lead has killed that church and it’s time to move on.
    The horse is dead.  The testosterone has been beat out of it and what started out as a well rounded stallion is now a flat filly!
    Nothing to see here folks!  Please keep moving on.  If you’d like to spend some time in self-flagellation, please go to the right and John Piper will be with you shortly,

  170. flounderfoot says

    mdcraig flounderfoot kringlebertfistyebuns ennead

    Yes he did shame himself.  I think he has publicly admitted it and expressed his regret on the things that he wrote.

    But … you did slander him.  You said that he hated women based on comments from 14 years ago (completely disregarding everything else he has done or said since then).  You psycho-analyzed him and determined his real reason is a fear of being castrated.  Really?  You just called him a “nominal” Christian.  Hmmm …. in the past 14 years this guy has lead thousands to Christ, started some 15 churches, confronted some of the most difficult pastoral issues that we could only imagine, and compared to you, he’s just … a nominal Christian. While former Satanist, girls that have left the sex trade, and a myriad of others will defend the guy, they only pale in comparison to the insight and wisdom that you have.  I am indeed humbled to be blogging with you.

  171. mdcraig says

    flounderfoot mdcraig kringlebertfistyebuns ennead
    Either I slandered him, falsely attributing to him words he did not write or speak– hateful, misogynistic words, I might add, that fixate on castration and how men, by being too much like women, are messing up–or I correctly attributed those words to him and did not slander him. Pick one. Given that, as you point out, he later repudiated his vulgar, misogynistic rant, he is in fact claiming to have said/written these things and feels they were bad enough that an apology was in order. In short, I did not slander anyone–an accusation you have falsely made, twice. He said it. It was insulting to women and weirdly fixated on men’s balls (this was not an interpretive leap or armchair psychoanalysis on my part; read what the man said–he’s not subtle). And he apologized, as he should. (If his words weren’t offensive, why, after all, should he apologize?) As to the rest, Driscoll has built an empire; he’s attracted large numbers of people  who would have found the cultures of many churches off-putting; and he’s kept the spotlight firmly trained on himself, in his role as rebel, provocateur, pierced and tatted dude of God. Unfortunately, the result is a little too much cult of Driscoll, not enough of the love, wisdom, compassion and humility of Christ.

  172. mdcraig says

    flounderfoot mdcraig kringlebertfistyebuns ennead
    Either I slandered him, falsely attributing to him words he did not write or speak– hateful, misogynistic words, I might add, that fixate on castration and how men, by being too much like women, are messing up–or I correctly attributed those words to him and did not slander him. Pick one. Given that, as you point out, he later repudiated his vulgar, misogynistic rant, he is in fact claiming to have said/written these things and feels they were bad enough that an apology was in order. In short, I did not slander anyone–an accusation you have falsely made, twice. He said it. It was insulting to women and weirdly fixated on men’s balls (this was not an interpretive leap or armchair psychoanalysis on my part; read what the man said–he’s not subtle). And he apologized, as he should. (If his words weren’t offensive, why, after all, should he apologize?) As to the rest, Driscoll has built an empire; he’s attracted large numbers of people  who would have found the cultures of many churches off-putting; and he’s kept the spotlight firmly trained on himself, in his role as rebel, provocateur, pierced and tatted dude of God. Unfortunately, the result is a little too much cult of Driscoll, not enough of the love, wisdom, compassion and humility of Christ.

  173. mdcraig says

    flounderfoot mdcraig kringlebertfistyebuns ennead
    By the way, in rereading our posts, I couldn’t help but notice the snark and sarcasm you directed at me personally. I think we should be able to have strongly held opposing views and present them forcefully without resorting to incivility.

  174. mdcraig says

    flounderfoot mdcraig kringlebertfistyebuns ennead
    By the way, in rereading our posts, I couldn’t help but notice the snark and sarcasm you directed at me personally. I think we should be able to have strongly held opposing views and present them forcefully without resorting to incivility.

  175. richardherickson says

    After being in
    relationship with him for 3 years,he broke up with me,
    I did everything
    possible to bring him back but all was in vain, I wanted
    him back so much
    because of the love I have for him, I begged him with
    everything, I made
    promises but he refused. I explained my problem to
    someone online and
    she suggested that I should rather contact a spell
    caster that could
    help me cast a spell to bring him back but I am the type
    that never believed
    in spell, I had no choice than to try it, I mailed the
    spell caster, and he
    told me there was no problem that everything will be
    okay before three
    days, that my ex will return to me before three days, he
    cast the spell and
    surprisingly in the second day, it was around 4pm. My ex
    called me, I was so
    surprised, I answered the call and all he said was that
    he was so sorry for
    everything that happened, that he wanted me to return
    to him, that he
    loves me so much. I was so happy and went to him, that was
    how we started
    living together happily again. Since then, I have made
    promise that anybody
    I know that have a relationship problem or child problem I would be of
    help to such person
    by referring him or her to the only real and powerful
    spell caster who
    helped me with my own problem and who is different from
    all the fake ones
    out there. Anybody could need the help of the spell
    caster, his email is

    shankikispelltemple222@gmail.comgo and test the good work of these man. I am
    maryhnline

  176. BrianHarris1 says

    MaynardCastille TL;DR, Or rather started reading and then saw you were inadvertently making a case for why Christianity isn’t a great belief system.

  177. BartBreen says

    Good luck with that Maynard. If bigotry, complementarianism and right wing politics are what make for a Christian message then I can understand why you and Mark Driscoll need the JESUS you’ve created. Problem is, it looks nothing like Jesus at all.

  178. BartBreen says

    Good luck with that Maynard. If bigotry, complementarianism and right wing politics are what make for a Christian message then I can understand why you and Mark Driscoll need the JESUS you’ve created. Problem is, it looks nothing like Jesus at all.

  179. LightningJoe says

    MaynardCastille

    MaynardCastille : “SOMETHING JUST DOES NOT PASS THE SMELL TEST HERE.”

    Hate to be so blunt and so dismissed at the same time, Maynard; but it’s YOU who doesn’t pass the smell test…

    Try CRACKING that Cosmic Egg you live in…

  180. LightningJoe says

    MaynardCastille

    MaynardCastille : “SOMETHING JUST DOES NOT PASS THE SMELL TEST HERE.”

    Hate to be so blunt and so dismissed at the same time, Maynard; but it’s YOU who doesn’t pass the smell test…

    Try CRACKING that Cosmic Egg you live in…

  181. mdcraig says

    lailaco19 flounderfoot Totally agree with this post. Do we truly believe that Jesus Christ wouldn’t be appalled by the injustice of paying women less than men for the same job? Do we really think that He would deny women of talent and wisdom leadership roles in the Church? That He would find a woman who couldn’t bear children to be useless? That He’d expect intellectually gifted women to keep quiet while the men discussed theology? If strong, actualized, spirit-filled women are a threat to your masculinity, you really have to question how solid it was to begin with and you really have to wonder why the only way you feel you can express it is by having your foot firmly planted on the neck of the women around you.

  182. mdcraig says

    lailaco19 flounderfoot Totally agree with this post. Do we truly believe that Jesus Christ wouldn’t be appalled by the injustice of paying women less than men for the same job? Do we really think that He would deny women of talent and wisdom leadership roles in the Church? That He would find a woman who couldn’t bear children to be useless? That He’d expect intellectually gifted women to keep quiet while the men discussed theology? If strong, actualized, spirit-filled women are a threat to your masculinity, you really have to question how solid it was to begin with and you really have to wonder why the only way you feel you can express it is by having your foot firmly planted on the neck of the women around you.

  183. flounderfoot says

    mdcraig 

    You (or them) is not a threat to my masculinity…. just a threat to an environment where men and women are submitting to God’s word and honoring Him above their own agenda.

    “Do we really think that He (Jesus) would deny women of talent and wisdom leadership roles in the Church?”

    Well apparently you think so.

    Because while Jesus broke the boundaries in honoring women, he choose NOT to appoint any as his disciples.  Heck, he had 12, why not at least throw in a 13 disciple that is a woman?!!  He choose NOT to appoint any women in spiritual leadership above men.  

    Maybe Jesus was afraid of what people would say (I’m being sarcastic).  Maybe he just “forgot” to do this.  Maybe he was a little “bigoted” against women and he didn’t consider them worthy of such an “honor”.

    Or maybe in his wisdom he recognized that different people play different roles and all of them are important and valuable … but they may not always play the same roles.

    Then again, you surely have greater insight than everyone in the New Testament church.  And they must have all been a bigots because they wouldn’t allow women to become pastors.  

    What a tremendous time that we live in that we can receive “proper” instruction from you, even greater than the apostle Paul and Jesus himself….  

    You don’t know me, you don’t probably know Mark Driscoll, and I would wonder if you really know Jesus.  If you did, you wouldn’t slander and destroy people without cause only to build yourself up.  I’m defending a godly man’s reputation who has been involved in thousands of people coming to know Christ.  He has made mistakes, but he doesn’t deserve to be slandered by the likes of you.

    I am not a member of Mars Hill, but I support Mark Driscoll.

  184. flounderfoot says

    mdcraig 

    You (or them) is not a threat to my masculinity…. just a threat to an environment where men and women are submitting to God’s word and honoring Him above their own agenda.

    “Do we really think that He (Jesus) would deny women of talent and wisdom leadership roles in the Church?”

    Well apparently you think so.

    Because while Jesus broke the boundaries in honoring women, he choose NOT to appoint any as his disciples.  Heck, he had 12, why not at least throw in a 13 disciple that is a woman?!!  He choose NOT to appoint any women in spiritual leadership above men.  

    Maybe Jesus was afraid of what people would say (I’m being sarcastic).  Maybe he just “forgot” to do this.  Maybe he was a little “bigoted” against women and he didn’t consider them worthy of such an “honor”.

    Or maybe in his wisdom he recognized that different people play different roles and all of them are important and valuable … but they may not always play the same roles.

    Then again, you surely have greater insight than everyone in the New Testament church.  And they must have all been a bigots because they wouldn’t allow women to become pastors.  

    What a tremendous time that we live in that we can receive “proper” instruction from you, even greater than the apostle Paul and Jesus himself….  

    You don’t know me, you don’t probably know Mark Driscoll, and I would wonder if you really know Jesus.  If you did, you wouldn’t slander and destroy people without cause only to build yourself up.  I’m defending a godly man’s reputation who has been involved in thousands of people coming to know Christ.  He has made mistakes, but he doesn’t deserve to be slandered by the likes of you.

    I am not a member of Mars Hill, but I support Mark Driscoll.

  185. flounderfoot says

    BartBreen

    This is coming from a guy who was absolutely “gleeful” at the destruction of a pastor.  Now I’m sure that is how Jesus would have reacted.

  186. flounderfoot says

    BartBreen

    This is coming from a guy who was absolutely “gleeful” at the destruction of a pastor.  Now I’m sure that is how Jesus would have reacted.

  187. flounderfoot says

    mdcraig flounderfoot BartBreen Christ_Fit JeffPreuss

    Sorry you are offended by “pussification”, especially when the context has nothing to do with you.  (Maybe you shouldn’t be inserted yourself into this since it has NOTHING to do with you)

    ….. I’m offended that you would lie and mischaracterize Mark Dricsoll and others.

    “the suggestion that only men are fit for leadership or that Christian marriage couldn’t possibly exist between equals who lead together is just as offensive”

    I’m fairly confident that he never said that, in fact I’ve heard him say just the opposite.  So quit lying and slandering the guy.  It’s … a little offensive.  :-)

  188. flounderfoot says

    mdcraig flounderfoot BartBreen Christ_Fit JeffPreuss

    Sorry you are offended by “pussification”, especially when the context has nothing to do with you.  (Maybe you shouldn’t be inserted yourself into this since it has NOTHING to do with you)

    ….. I’m offended that you would lie and mischaracterize Mark Dricsoll and others.

    “the suggestion that only men are fit for leadership or that Christian marriage couldn’t possibly exist between equals who lead together is just as offensive”

    I’m fairly confident that he never said that, in fact I’ve heard him say just the opposite.  So quit lying and slandering the guy.  It’s … a little offensive.  :-)

  189. mdcraig says

    flounderfoot mdcraig It would have been about as possible for unmarried women to roam from town to town in ancient Israel with a group of men to whom they were not related or married as it would be today in Saudi Arabia. They would absolutely have been in danger for their lives–and you must know that. That said, the first people designated by an angel of God to spread the Gospel were the women at the tomb. (You’ll recall, of course, that the disciples went into hiding; the women were a little braver–who needs balls when you have ovaries?) Despite existing at a time that when women were considered little more than property, women held leadership positions in the early church. Mary Magdalene, herself the victim of a smear campaign perpetrated by misogynists in the early years of the Roman Catholic Church, wrote her own account of the teachings of Jesus. You might want to check it out. 
    I’d like to point out that though I have remained civil to you throughout this discussion and have limited my attacks to your specious arguments, rather than going after you personally, you have failed to show me the same courtesy or even recognized me as your sister in Christ. I think it’s time to end this discussion and I urge you to contemplate your own words and behavior, on display in this thread.

  190. mdcraig says

    flounderfoot mdcraig It would have been about as possible for unmarried women to roam from town to town in ancient Israel with a group of men to whom they were not related or married as it would be today in Saudi Arabia. They would absolutely have been in danger for their lives–and you must know that. That said, the first people designated by an angel of God to spread the Gospel were the women at the tomb. (You’ll recall, of course, that the disciples went into hiding; the women were a little braver–who needs balls when you have ovaries?) Despite existing at a time that when women were considered little more than property, women held leadership positions in the early church. Mary Magdalene, herself the victim of a smear campaign perpetrated by misogynists in the early years of the Roman Catholic Church, wrote her own account of the teachings of Jesus. You might want to check it out. 
    I’d like to point out that though I have remained civil to you throughout this discussion and have limited my attacks to your specious arguments, rather than going after you personally, you have failed to show me the same courtesy or even recognized me as your sister in Christ. I think it’s time to end this discussion and I urge you to contemplate your own words and behavior, on display in this thread.

  191. flounderfoot says

    mdcraig flounderfoot

    I guess I should thank you for being civil towards me.  But my issue was that you attacked someone wrongly and slandered him.

    You have never admitted and apologized for that, or corrected me and shown how I was mistaken when I pointed out what you were doing.

    You’ve just excused your behavior, continued to slander Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill, and act like everything is okay.  The role of women in the church is really a side issue.  You are (as I’ve pointed out) wrong in many of your assertions, but the real issue is why you would lie about a pastor that you don’t agree with.  It is certainly okay to disagree, it is not okay to lie and slander someone.

    I am treating you as I would treat any brother or sister in Christ.  I am holding you accountable for what you have said and done with the hope that it brings about repentance and a closer relationship with your savior.  Sometimes confronting sin is the most compassionate thing to do.

  192. flounderfoot says

    mdcraig flounderfoot

    I guess I should thank you for being civil towards me.  But my issue was that you attacked someone wrongly and slandered him.

    You have never admitted and apologized for that, or corrected me and shown how I was mistaken when I pointed out what you were doing.

    You’ve just excused your behavior, continued to slander Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill, and act like everything is okay.  The role of women in the church is really a side issue.  You are (as I’ve pointed out) wrong in many of your assertions, but the real issue is why you would lie about a pastor that you don’t agree with.  It is certainly okay to disagree, it is not okay to lie and slander someone.

    I am treating you as I would treat any brother or sister in Christ.  I am holding you accountable for what you have said and done with the hope that it brings about repentance and a closer relationship with your savior.  Sometimes confronting sin is the most compassionate thing to do.

  193. BartBreen says

    Mark Driscoll is on leave and continued investigation and Mars Hill has been cast out of Acts29. You are blinded by your desire to support your extreme view and unwilling to see any wrong because you appear to need to defend Driscoll at any cost by rationalizing that your desired ends are justified by any means necessary.

  194. BartBreen says

    Mark Driscoll is on leave and continued investigation and Mars Hill has been cast out of Acts29. You are blinded by your desire to support your extreme view and unwilling to see any wrong because you appear to need to defend Driscoll at any cost by rationalizing that your desired ends are justified by any means necessary.

  195. flounderfoot says

    BartBreen

    So … it’s okay to lie about someone, just because you don’t agree with them?

    I don’t NEED to defend Mark Driscoll.  I choose to.

    I just don’t like a blogasphere where people surround themselves with “Christianity” and Jesus, and then judge and lie about someone.  Jesus, frankly deserves better.

  196. flounderfoot says

    BartBreen

    So … it’s okay to lie about someone, just because you don’t agree with them?

    I don’t NEED to defend Mark Driscoll.  I choose to.

    I just don’t like a blogasphere where people surround themselves with “Christianity” and Jesus, and then judge and lie about someone.  Jesus, frankly deserves better.

  197. jinanorah says

    flounderfoot mdcraig I don’t know who you are flounderfoot, but I like you and I like your style.  I am just very disappointed.  I was a big fan of Mark Driscoll and I suppose I’m just disappointed that he’s let me (and everyone else) down.  This is precisely why you follow Jesus and not follow men.  

    Blessings to you, my Brother.

  198. jinanorah says

    flounderfoot mdcraig I don’t know who you are flounderfoot, but I like you and I like your style.  I am just very disappointed.  I was a big fan of Mark Driscoll and I suppose I’m just disappointed that he’s let me (and everyone else) down.  This is precisely why you follow Jesus and not follow men.  

    Blessings to you, my Brother.

  199. Julia_O says

    flounderfoot lailaco19 WhattheHellBook If your manhood can be destroyed by feminism you weren’t much of a man to begin with.

  200. Julia_O says

    flounderfoot lailaco19 WhattheHellBook If your manhood can be destroyed by feminism you weren’t much of a man to begin with.

  201. flounderfoot says

    jinanorah flounderfoot mdcraig

    It is all about Jesus.  We are all sinners, even after letting Christ lead in our lives we still fail. But I won’t buckle and walk away when people lie and lead a smear campaign about a man who is trying to honor Christ.  Yes, Mark has made mistakes.  But he also has preached the gospel accurately and thousands of lives have been changed.  When he fails and doesn’t repent, I’ll hold him accountable.  If people lie about him, well I’ll try to hold them accountable too.

    It bugs people to even see me write that.  But that is an issue of their heart with God, not me.

  202. flounderfoot says

    jinanorah flounderfoot mdcraig

    It is all about Jesus.  We are all sinners, even after letting Christ lead in our lives we still fail. But I won’t buckle and walk away when people lie and lead a smear campaign about a man who is trying to honor Christ.  Yes, Mark has made mistakes.  But he also has preached the gospel accurately and thousands of lives have been changed.  When he fails and doesn’t repent, I’ll hold him accountable.  If people lie about him, well I’ll try to hold them accountable too.

    It bugs people to even see me write that.  But that is an issue of their heart with God, not me.

  203. flounderfoot says

    Julia_O flounderfoot lailaco19 WhattheHellBook

    Just to put you at peace, my manhood isn’t destroyed by feminism or by anything that you might say or do.

    I am fearful for the young men that are now reaching manhood, that the lies of feminism and progressivism confuse them and cause them to not lead when they should (or the flip side that they lead in an abusive way).  

    And I’m also concerned for the women who fall prey to feminism and its lies.   Who fall prey to pride and diminish their husbands and other men and are not served as they could be.  

    Let me list some of the lies:

    1.  FEMINIST LIE:  Value of an individual comes from a position recognized by others.  TRUTH: Value comes how God sees them and the dignity that He gives them.   This isn’t based on what they can do, it is based on the fact that He created them and loves them enough to die for their sin and pride.

    2.  FEMINIST LIE:  The role of women in the church and marriage should be based on who is the most skilled.  TRUTH:  God is a lot smarter than we are.  Not always is the person in their role because they seem to be the most qualified.  Sometimes it is to protect the individuals, or to help them mature and take responsibility.  Ultimately, whether a man or a woman, we are all called to be submissive to God’s will.  Like it or not, God has called men to lead graciously in their marriage and in the church.

    3.  FEMINIST LIE:  Submission is an evil word.  TRUTH:  It is not.  We all submit… at least eventually we submit to those in authority or we lose our jobs and end up in jail.  The Christian life is about submitting our will to that of Jesus.  Submitting our causes and our issues to His.  If you don’t know Christ, then this doesn’t apply to you.  If you claim to be a Christian but are filled with pride and not willing to submit, then don’t be surprised if people challenge you (they just might be doing it in love).

    There are more.  But I need to submit to my boss, honor my wife, and get back to work (I own my own company, so I’m not “stealing” from my boss).

  204. flounderfoot says

    Julia_O flounderfoot lailaco19 WhattheHellBook

    Just to put you at peace, my manhood isn’t destroyed by feminism or by anything that you might say or do.

    I am fearful for the young men that are now reaching manhood, that the lies of feminism and progressivism confuse them and cause them to not lead when they should (or the flip side that they lead in an abusive way).  

    And I’m also concerned for the women who fall prey to feminism and its lies.   Who fall prey to pride and diminish their husbands and other men and are not served as they could be.  

    Let me list some of the lies:

    1.  FEMINIST LIE:  Value of an individual comes from a position recognized by others.  TRUTH: Value comes how God sees them and the dignity that He gives them.   This isn’t based on what they can do, it is based on the fact that He created them and loves them enough to die for their sin and pride.

    2.  FEMINIST LIE:  The role of women in the church and marriage should be based on who is the most skilled.  TRUTH:  God is a lot smarter than we are.  Not always is the person in their role because they seem to be the most qualified.  Sometimes it is to protect the individuals, or to help them mature and take responsibility.  Ultimately, whether a man or a woman, we are all called to be submissive to God’s will.  Like it or not, God has called men to lead graciously in their marriage and in the church.

    3.  FEMINIST LIE:  Submission is an evil word.  TRUTH:  It is not.  We all submit… at least eventually we submit to those in authority or we lose our jobs and end up in jail.  The Christian life is about submitting our will to that of Jesus.  Submitting our causes and our issues to His.  If you don’t know Christ, then this doesn’t apply to you.  If you claim to be a Christian but are filled with pride and not willing to submit, then don’t be surprised if people challenge you (they just might be doing it in love).

    There are more.  But I need to submit to my boss, honor my wife, and get back to work (I own my own company, so I’m not “stealing” from my boss).

  205. Julia_O says

    flounderfoot Julia_O lailaco19 WhattheHellBook Nothing you could say or think could ever affect my peace one way or the other.  And I’ve heard all this MRA + Jesus BS before and it’s just blah, blah, blah.  Here’s the bottom line:  in your lifetime, you will never see the twisted sort of world you are longing to go back to so badly.  Women and the men who love them will never go back.  So you and your pulpit-less buddy Mark are just going to have to deal with it.

  206. Julia_O says

    flounderfoot Julia_O lailaco19 WhattheHellBook Nothing you could say or think could ever affect my peace one way or the other.  And I’ve heard all this MRA + Jesus BS before and it’s just blah, blah, blah.  Here’s the bottom line:  in your lifetime, you will never see the twisted sort of world you are longing to go back to so badly.  Women and the men who love them will never go back.  So you and your pulpit-less buddy Mark are just going to have to deal with it.

  207. mdcraig says

    Julia_O lailaco19 WhattheHellBook Amen, sister. You should probably just let it go. If someone wants to scream at the top of his lungs, again and again, that his horse is a donkey, despite all evidence to the contrary, there’s really no point in engaging further. He’s clinging too tightly to his specious account of reality to entertain the possibility that his horse is a horse.

  208. mdcraig says

    Julia_O lailaco19 WhattheHellBook Amen, sister. You should probably just let it go. If someone wants to scream at the top of his lungs, again and again, that his horse is a donkey, despite all evidence to the contrary, there’s really no point in engaging further. He’s clinging too tightly to his specious account of reality to entertain the possibility that his horse is a horse.

  209. nannybanana says

    MaynardCastille Someday, your homophobic misogynist attitudes will be an embarrassing relic of the past.  Your kind will die out, and your hate will die with you.  And although I’m straight, I’ll be enjoying the gay weddings of my friends and witnessing love and acceptance.  You’ll be a footnote, and well forgotten.

  210. nannybanana says

    MaynardCastille Someday, your homophobic misogynist attitudes will be an embarrassing relic of the past.  Your kind will die out, and your hate will die with you.  And although I’m straight, I’ll be enjoying the gay weddings of my friends and witnessing love and acceptance.  You’ll be a footnote, and well forgotten.

  211. MaynardCastille says

    BartBreen I think you better start to think about facing the Lord and explaining why you hate Him and deny the Call for repentance of the  Cross. Yeah I think I understand why you don’t want Jesus and have replaced Him with your idol of humanistic unbelief and judgement of God Himself. Forget good luck with that !

  212. MaynardCastille says

    LightningJoe MaynardCastille Try understanding that homosexuality is an abject and terrible corruption of human sexuality – it’s rather obvious . I do NOT hate to be so blunt . You need the Truth . Try cracking the darkness that is enveloping you .

  213. MaynardCastille says

    nannybanana MaynardCastille Someday, you will be face to face with the Lord and Creator that you seem to dislike so much and Whose Ways you hate. There won’t be any love and acceptance for you then ..because ..you will see yourself as you are . At that time you will understand why the Lord commanded death by stoning for homosexuality. And it will have nothing to do with hatred. Except you will be able then to fully view your hatreds.

  214. MaynardCastille says

    nannybanana MaynardCastille Someday, you will be face to face with the Lord and Creator that you seem to dislike so much and Whose Ways you hate. There won’t be any love and acceptance for you then ..because ..you will see yourself as you are . At that time you will understand why the Lord commanded death by stoning for homosexuality. And it will have nothing to do with hatred. Except you will be able then to fully view your hatreds.

  215. nannybanana says

    MaynardCastille nannybanana I saw so much more love, tolerance, acceptance at the last gay wedding I attended than in Your Words (if I use capital letters, does that make me seem more wise and credible?).  Do I seem to dislike the Lord and Creator? You must be a prophet yourself to know that the Lord and Creator will withhold his love and acceptance at My Judgement.

    I once knew a man who spoke as you did, full of righteousness and quick judgement.  That man raped his children (my cousins) repeatedly.  Some people talk.  Some people live a charitable life.  Mr. Castille, you talk alot.

  216. nannybanana says

    MaynardCastille nannybanana I saw so much more love, tolerance, acceptance at the last gay wedding I attended than in Your Words (if I use capital letters, does that make me seem more wise and credible?).  Do I seem to dislike the Lord and Creator? You must be a prophet yourself to know that the Lord and Creator will withhold his love and acceptance at My Judgement.

    I once knew a man who spoke as you did, full of righteousness and quick judgement.  That man raped his children (my cousins) repeatedly.  Some people talk.  Some people live a charitable life.  Mr. Castille, you talk alot.

  217. mdcraig says

    nannybanana MaynardCastille Well said, nannybanana. First of all, I’m very sorry about the great injury and injustice your cousins suffered at the hands of a self-styled Biblical patriarch/child molester/hypocrite. Second, thank you for your well-argued responses to the idiocy, misogyny and apostasy—not to mention sub-standard grammar and punctuation–in this thread. Third, I’d invite anyone who insists they know exactly how God is going to rain down punishment on other people to take a few moments to look at the stars tonight and remember where you were when God hung them in space. Then try to do the two things about which both the Old and New Testaments are abundantly clear: love God and love your neighbor. End of story.

  218. JeffPreuss says

    MaynardCastille nannybanana Endorsing my being stoned to death is nothing BUT pure hatred.  You can spin it however you want, but when I’ve saved you a seat at our Lord’s table in Heaven, I bet you’ll see your error.

  219. LightningJoe says

    MaynardCastille LightningJoe ::
     “terrible corruption of human sexuality”
    Then why is it also a NATURAL form of sexuality?  I mean, face it, if it were UNnatural, very few people would engage in it, or be attracted to same-sex partners in the first place. But we see around eight percent of our population doing that; which, make no mistake, is a HUGE number…
    I would contest any idea that this many people would do or feel something that was UNnatural for them to do or feel.
    It is the ATTRACTION that makes it natural, dude. The ACTS that you call a “corruption of human sexuality” follow that.

  220. LightningJoe says

    MaynardCastille LightningJoe ::
     “terrible corruption of human sexuality”
    Then why is it also a NATURAL form of sexuality?  I mean, face it, if it were UNnatural, very few people would engage in it, or be attracted to same-sex partners in the first place. But we see around eight percent of our population doing that; which, make no mistake, is a HUGE number…
    I would contest any idea that this many people would do or feel something that was UNnatural for them to do or feel.
    It is the ATTRACTION that makes it natural, dude. The ACTS that you call a “corruption of human sexuality” follow that.

  221. mdcraig says

    thepreachersgoldmine1 Sorry, I prefer real Biblical scholars, who don’t project their own bigotry and fear onto scripture and call it inspired by God. Go peddle misogyny somewhere else.

  222. Thomas says

    Wow. Before anyone else stops to throw a stone at Mark, please don’t. Consider the words you say are the overflow of your heart, if you first instinct is, “How can I verbally discredit or insult this guy.” Stop, pray too that your heart might be softened. Mark is a sinner, just like we all are. Say a prayer that God would put Mark’s heart back in the place that can be used to further God’s kingdom and bring glory to Our Father.

    • Brent says

      What is most disturbing is regardless of how he said it, his stances on homosexuality are correct as well as the absolute blasphemy of feminism. Unfortunately most churches have completely sold their souls to the state as well as political correctness, and absolutely will not preach the truth in fear of offending someone, and be held liable for hate language, etc. This is what happened in Nazi Germany and isn’t much different than communist China or Russia. Jesus told the unadulterated truth and was hated for it and eventually killed for it. Jesus also said if you belong to me you will be hated by the world. I get so dejected that almost all churches are dead churches because they have allowed themselves to think they need to conform to secular society. 501c3s are terrible too because than the churches are sovereign to the state and not God. If the bible is going to be preached honestly, its going to offend a lot of people. To not tell the truth to people and give them a watered down inoffensive version is not being loving. Appreciate the 1st amendment while we still have it.

Trackbacks

  1. […] His theology is in many ways at odds with contemporary culture, including an unapologetic belief in complementarianism — the idea that men and women have different roles to play — which in practice has meant that women do not serve as pastors or elders at Mars Hill, and he urges husbands to lead their wives and wives to submit to their husbands. He has objected to chauvinism, as well as feminism, but his critics say that, at his worst, he has had a tendency to objectify women and denigrate gays. […]

  2. […] “Some have publicly brought up issues that were long ago addressed and resolved, adding to the understandable confusion that many of you may have been experiencing recently,” Driscoll said, referencing his recent “William Wallace” controversy as an example, and noting he had already taken “full responsibility for those actions, and will forever be ashamed by what I did. [Click here to view his crude comments as William Wallace II.] […]

Leave a Reply