Mark Driscoll’s Pussified Nation…

In his book Confessions of a Reformission Rev, Mark Driscoll might have made one confession too many. See image below.

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Mark’s seemingly funny story about writing as William Wallace II might end up becoming his worst nightmare yet. Because Mark’s Internet ramblings as William Wallace II from 14 years ago have allegedly hit the Internet. Not just at my blog. But at lots of places. You can read the backstory about “William Wallace II” here at Wenatchee The Hatchet.

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And that’s just part of the 140-page conversation that you can read here.

And warning… it’s a mouthful.

 

135 comments
MaynardCastille
MaynardCastille

I just wandered into this event. So Far, the impression I am receiving, is that - in this church are the usual contingent of luke-warm and politically left people who take umbrage at the notion that men should be men and women should be women. When men/women take umbrage at that, it's either because they are basically unaware that that is exactly the view that the Word of God sanctions and repeats often or because these people are usually more humanistic in nature than Christian. 

Yes , it appears,  that if Driscoll is a "lightening Rod". It looks to me, from what I have seen so far , that it's because he is uncompromising about his defense of the concept of manhood as it is enunciated in the New Testament. No, the New Testament doesn't use the word "pussified" . But how can supposedly Christian men  go after a Pastor for using that word - knowing the deep separation between role and performance of men and women that is clearly stated in the NT - and viewing and knowing the actual "pussification" that we see all around us and is so evident to us all.  This therefore shows me that his critics are all about "style and political disagreement" and may be masquerading under a "Christian" front. 


I'm not a member - But - I think these protestors are the ones who should be censured - from what I have seen so far. 


Lastly, I'm older and so is this pastor. We grew up in a world where there were no gay prom queens. No men and women walking incessantly about our cities , holding hands and kissing. No 'gay clubs' in the high schools. No "gay" activists brought into the secondary schools to propagandize for same sex behaviors - under the guise of "acceptance". 


The world these critics inhabit seems to ignore this striking and real and tremendous change that has shortly taken place in your communities and cities. And I have NO doubt it is because humanistic worldlings have infiltrated Churches like this one in America. 


It's YOU - not this Pastor that is bringing in error and I think it's many of his critics that are responsible for the terrible carnage that is being produced in the youth of this nation. The youth of America  know you stand for nothing but your own philosophies. 


Now if the above does NOT apply to you ..then that is good.


I do NOT know all the circumstances surrounding this issue. But I would suggest that if you feel "bullied" that you confront the Pastor and tell him so. Better than standing outside a church protesting .


SOMETHING JUST DOES NOT PASS THE SMELL TEST HERE.

mdcraig
mdcraig


To quote Gloria Steinam, "this made me feel like a Jew reading a Nazi manual." Appalling, adolescent, misogynistic and not in any way reflective of Jesus Christ, This guy needs to step back, get quiet and let the spotlight shine on somebody else. Clearly it has corrupted him.

Christ_Fit
Christ_Fit

This is seriously old news and it seems more like Matt is trying to drum up sales for his book. Driscolls choice of words aside, he's correct in how the world has become and how gender roles have been redefined... especially when viewed with biblical teaching. We've slipped, Mark called us out, and now folks are whining.

jamesallen74
jamesallen74

He has a point about how feminism is the biggest enemy pervasive in our current church. You can't teach women to be submissive any more out of fear of offending them.

MicahDameron
MicahDameron

It's not the just the using of harsh words that's the problem -- Jesus used harsh words when he called the Pharisees sons of serpents; Paul used harsh words when he called everything in this life "loss" (i.e. fecal matter) compared to knowing Jesus.


The problem is Driscoll's self-righteous smugness, and in this case there's definitely too much of a good thing. He could have gotten his point across in the first paragraph of his writing, and then used the remaining space to explain why he thinks that way instead of writing defamatory monologue out of his obvious insecurity as a man. Few people I know have such a shallow definition of manhood. 

dreamagery
dreamagery

He has great points here! There is a different language one can use to get this point across. But Mark Driscoll does have to get some credibility for much truth of what is an epidemic in America. 

BrandonFroedge
BrandonFroedge

I mean...doesn't he kind of have a good point? I think so. It could be said differently, of course. But...why do we have to talk in such a filtered, wimpy way to start with? And why do we have to act so offended? I get what he's saying and I think it's worthy of discussion. I agree with the general point even though it is over-stated (he has admitted as much, of course).

msatty
msatty

This "news" is over 14 years old. Why are we making a huge deal of it now? I would humbly suggest, that as Christ's followers, none of us are the person we were 14 years ago. I'm certain that, as a pastor, my theology has ripened and deepened, my character has grown, and every relationship I had 14 years ago is different today because I and the individuals I love and care for are different as well. I will not defend Driscoll's words or tone, though I will go to bat for the philosophy of calling men to Biblical masculinity to lies behind them.

jander2099
jander2099

This certainly isn't the first time Pastor Driscoll's words have gotten out of hand. However, knowing him and his character, we know that he would be the first to announce that he has been audacious and offensive at times in his life. He would also certainly agree that language like this is not acceptable and that repentance is due.

The use of our words needs to be taken very seriously. Words have the power to build up or cut others down. Words can cause irreparable damage. The bible, the living word, is clear on this.

What bothers me more is the questionable nature of this post..  Why is it titled in the present tense? Does Pastor Driscoll imply in his book that he still holds what he said in those posts to be helpful? Does the phrase 'it was me raging like a madman' show a present and positive enthusiasm for the things he said?

The author of the post arbitrates that Pastor Driscoll 'may have made one confession too many.' I'm not sure what that means. Shouldn't we always be coming clean to Christ's glory? Should we be protecting our reputation by hiding the past or should we be showing the redemptive power of God by acknowledging the past and praising God for where he has brought us now?

Why would the author hold Pastor Driscoll to his word that he spoke 14 years ago higher than a recent renounciation of that word by the original speaker? If Pastor Driscoll has not repented yet, of course, he must do so, but he could never make enough reparations for his sin. Only Christ can do and has done that.

It's frightening how a post like this can so detract from the gospel. It starts under the guise of an innocent presentation of information. 'Here's proof of someone's wrongdoing,' then 'Here's a convenient compilation of ALL of his wrongdoing.' Unfortunately there is no show of redemption in this. There is only defamation of character. We are all held to the same standard by God, yet we only see Pastor Driscoll's sin.

There are six things that the Lord hates,
seven that are an abomination to him:
haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
and hands that shed innocent blood,
a heart that devises wicked plans,
feet that make haste to run to evil,

a false witness who breathes out lies,
and one who sows discord among brothers.
(Prov 6:16-19)

I'll be praying for Pastor Driscoll and for you Mr. Turner. Please don't sow the seeds of discord among Christ's beloved bride. What Mark said was greivous, but I humbly ask you to check your own heart over this too. Christ's grace came at a price. He doesn't want it being cheapened and he doesn't want those entrusted to preach his word attempting to discredit others of whom he has entrusted it to as well.

LightningJoe
LightningJoe

@MaynardCastille

@MaynardCastille : "SOMETHING JUST DOES NOT PASS THE SMELL TEST HERE."


Hate to be so blunt and so dismissed at the same time, Maynard; but it's YOU who doesn't pass the smell test...


Try CRACKING that Cosmic Egg you live in...

BartBreen
BartBreen

Good luck with that Maynard. If bigotry, complementarianism and right wing politics are what make for a Christian message then I can understand why you and Mark Driscoll need the JESUS you've created. Problem is, it looks nothing like Jesus at all.

BrianHarris1
BrianHarris1

@MaynardCastille TL;DR, Or rather started reading and then saw you were inadvertently making a case for why Christianity isn't a great belief system.

BartBreen
BartBreen

The only person who should be ashamed of these words is the one who wrote them while attempting to hide behind an assumed identity.

The only person responsible for the fall of Mark Driscoll is Mark Driscoll.

Those who defend spiritual abuse carry their own shame and attempt to pass it on to others.

Thanks for the offer but you may hang on to it as long as you want until you are ready to let it go and stop defending this abusive leader and buying into his personality cult.

Julia_O
Julia_O

@jamesallen74 You can't beat them any more according to the "rule of thumb".  Really tragic, isn't it?

mdcraig
mdcraig

@jamesallen74 Kind of makes you envy the mullahs. Now those guys know how to teach women to be submissive.

flounderfoot
flounderfoot

@BartBreen


This is coming from a guy who was absolutely "gleeful" at the destruction of a pastor.  Now I'm sure that is how Jesus would have reacted.

JeffPreuss
JeffPreuss

@BartBreen It's amazing.  We're seeing more accusations of this only coming up to promote Turner's new book, completely disregarding the scores of other faith-based discussions of Driscoll's impact on the perception of Christianity as a whole.

I mean, heck, even Charisma News is covering this stuff, and they're fairly goshdarn conservative.


Do they have a book coming out, too?

BartBreen
BartBreen

@JeffPreuss @Christ_Fit Interesting point.  I wonder if they'll use designated funds and unethical marketing manipulation methods to make their books best sellers .... oh wait .... that was Driscoll .....

BartBreen
BartBreen

It was a nice try but you didn't quite get enough shame and guilt into the mix. Try harder.

Christ_Fit
Christ_Fit

@JeffPreuss 


Matt's website is the one that's stirred up the backlash. When you google Mark Driscoll "Pussified" his is the number 1 hit. Sorry but it's a little too convenient with the timing of his book released, and Matt has yet to defend this.


I find to many "Christians" want to edit the bible to their liking, and get mad/offended when they get caught. Again I challenge you to prove he's guilty of misogyny. Poor word choice yes, misogyny No.

meghanphelisa
meghanphelisa


@JeffPreuss @BartBreen @JeffPreuss @BartBreen  I am not defending the things Mark Driscoll said.  They were wrong and hateful and unkind and embarrassing.  Mark Driscoll has not defended the things that he said either, but apologized.   I am not upset because the things he said were condemned-they were worth condemning.  But to write someone off as a person despite their apology and attempts to change is neither Christ like nor an edifying example of the Gospel.  We're not all sanctified yet.  Sometimes we do stupid things, even pastors sometimes do stupid things.  It's just that the stupid things we do catch less publicity because we have less of an audience to offend. 


I am upset about this post because it is drawing on 14 year old mistakes.  I'm confused as to the purpose of starting a witch hunt over old news.  And I'm confused as to why believers are so comfortable throwing one another under the church bus.  

Thus, my problem is not with the content denouncing Driscoll's posts from 14 years ago, but with the sort of person who refuses to accept a public apology and give someone a chance to change.  Are we not called to be the first to forgiveness and seeking the restoration of others?  

I believe you can disagree with someone in love.  This post is not an example of that.

And if I am not mistaken, this post started the most recent batch of drama.   Regardless, of whether someone beat him to it, I still do not understand the purpose of dragging up 14 year old comments that he already admitted to, apologized for, and is no longer making.  How is this making a difference for the Gospel, for the good of the church, or for the acceptance of new souls into the kingdom of God?  



BartBreen
BartBreen

@JeffPreuss @BartBreen Jeff, if you like to learn something you can look up the rhetorical technique you just used.  It's called a presumptive question and is usually illustrated by the use of the classic phrase, "So, are you still beating your wife?"

Maybe you're aware of what you're doing and don't care.  Only you can answer this.  However, your desire to defend Driscoll and the entire package of Spiritual abuse taking place at Mars Hill is pretty sad.

The facts are:

1.  This is not new with Mark Driscoll.  It's been happening for years.

2.  Driscoll's own church has had to restructure their board in an effort to rein Mark Driscoll in and in the estimation of many they have failed.  This is demonstrated by 2 recent resignations from the Mars Hill BOAA.


3  Acts29, an organization FOUNDED by Driscoll has had to take the extraordinary act of expelling both Driscoll and Mars Hill in the last week because the damage to their organization and their ministry outweighs any benefit of continuing in view of the fact that those closest to Driscoll and Mars Hill Church have no confidence that the BOAA has any real power or intent to address the situation directly.


Attacking the messenger doesn't really accomplish anything other than to demonstrate that there's not much left to defend.  Mark Driscoll has been a lightening rod for quite some time.  This isn't anything new.  It's simply coming to a head and all but the die-hard defenders who will defend at any cost using all forms of logical fallacies are all that's left.  *Hint ... Jeff, that's what you are now .... someone who appears to need to defend at any cost.)

If you want to follow the type of misogynistic teaching that got Driscoll to where he is, may I suggest you look a little harder and see if you can't find those who promote it without swearing, without abusing staff members and their wives in their church, and who don't misuse church funds to promote their writings.  They're out there and then you can just focus on your need to feel superior as a male without having to take on Driscoll's other baggage as well.

You don't have to defend Driscoll to follow antiquated and wrong teaching.  You can exercise your choices to find better teachers to make you feel superior to others and focus your energy there.

And since it seems appropriate to end with this question, Jeff, Are you still bearing your wife?

Have a nice day.  ;)

Christ_Fit
Christ_Fit

@BartBreen @JeffPreuss You folks get all chapped because he calls it like it is, so he becomes a target. His wordage could have been better but he's dead on with what the Bible teaches. Folks make mistakes, he's not the first sinner and not the last. Both Paul and Peter had constant struggles, but Jesus felt both of them were still worthy... but I guess you perfect people know better. Good luck with that and don't read any books off the NYT bestseller list, because the majority use the same marketing tricks.

JeffPreuss
JeffPreuss

@Christ_Fit @JeffPreuss

"Matt's website is the one that's stirred up the backlash. When you google Mark Driscoll "Pussified" his is the number 1 hit. Sorry but it's a little too convenient with the timing of his book released, and Matt has yet to defend this."

So, it's the number 1 hit on Google?  That doesn't list things in chronological order, you realize, right?  Stating this is the ONE website that has stirred up backlash ignores Throckmorton, christianpost, Jezebel, marshillrefuge, the stranger...just to name a very FEW other websites that "stirred up the backlash" within 3 days of the ex-MH members releasing the documents.

Your book angle argument just doesn't hold water when there's so much evidence of other people discussing Driscoll in the same time frame.

BartBreen
BartBreen

@Christ_Fit @JeffPreuss I quote from Mark Driscoll himself.  If you don't believe this is misogyny, then you don't know what the word means.

"We could get every man, real man as opposed to pussified James Dobson knock-off crying Promise Keeping homoerotic worship loving mama’s boy sensitive emasculated neutered exact male replica evangellyfish, and have a conference in a phone booth. It all began with Adam, the first of the pussified nation, who kept his mouth shut and watched everything fall headlong down the slippery slide of hell/feminism when he shut his mouth and listened to his wife who thought Satan was a good theologian when he should have lead [sic] her and exercised his delegated authority as king of the planet. As a result, he was cursed for listening to his wife and every man since has been his [sic] pussified sit quietly by and watch a nation of men be raised by bitter penis envying burned feministed single mothers who make sure that Johnny grows up to be a very nice woman who sits down to pee."

MicahDameron
MicahDameron

@Christ_Fit If MD didn't want the verbal equivalent of Nazi hate speech to boost someone else's book sales, he shouldn't have said what he did. Not that it is going to boost his book sales anyway, because if you look at the alexa ratings for this site, the daily pageviews per hours are 11.55% down from last month, and the time spent on the site is down 6% from last month, so your argument that it's boosting book sales is nothing short of completely false.

jinanorah
jinanorah

@meghanphelisa @JeffPreuss @BartBreen Meghan, you're the only person here that actually makes sense and isn't denouncing Mark Driscoll with all their might.  Shame on people for jumping on the Flog-Mark Driscoll bandwagon.  He's a man of God who has made some mistakes.  He has apologized and repented of those mistakes.  If God is willing to grant grace, who are we not to?  

BartBreen
BartBreen

@meghanphelisa @JeffPreuss @BartBreen No.  This post did not start this most recent drama.  It's been going on for years and building.  It's the reason why, before this even came out (and it came out based upon Mark Driscoll's own admission that he wrote it) Mark Driscoll is not on Social Media now and why his church is reorganizing to try and address the situation.

This isn't about Mark Driscoll as a person.  I don't know Mark Driscoll as a person and frankly, I don't have to, to address what he does as a public person.  Driscoll has chosen to be a public person.  He's chosen to write books.  He chose to use church money to promote one of those book unethically.  He chose to promote and distribute his sermons and teaching.  He's promoted himself as a teacher, pastor and public spokesperson for his beliefs and withing the Neo-Reformed and Neo-Calvinist movement.

He founded an organization for planting similar churches that now has had enough and removed him and his church for the harm THEY (not those challenging them) have done to their reputation and ability to minister.  They waited and trusted that Mars Hill Church and their leadership would deal with the situation and they haven't.

It all ties together and shows a continued pattern of unrepentance on the part of MD who simply says the minimum necessary to address any immediate situation, after he's waited for things to go public and then his church appears unwilling to confront and actually embark on some form of discipline, probably because they fear that he's the face of that church and donations will go down.

This is typical of what happens then there's a personality cult built on one person and a financial infrastructure that can collapse.  Finances become more important than addressing the situation and confronting the out of control leader.

That's all this is, in my opinion.

The problem is not the people talking about it.  Public leadership invites such talk voluntarily.  The only people who can address this and show some integrity are Mark Driscoll and for the leadership of his church to grow a spine and deal with it.

It's pretty ironic in my opinion, that Driscoll would probably he the first to say that of others and question their manhood for being whimps on an issue like this.

Now he has an opportunity to show he's more than talk, and so far, he hasn't.

JeffPreuss
JeffPreuss

@meghanphelisa @JeffPreuss @BartBreen Why?  Probably because Driscoll has apologized for the tone and manner with which he made the comments, but famously not the content.  Possibly because there are some who have continued concerns that Driscoll is cultivating a cult of personality, and showing early warning signs of forming an actual cult.  Probably because he continues to be a faith leader of questionable integrity, making waves in an abusive manner.  Probably it's because Mars Hill and the massive upheaval occurring there are fairly big news within the faith community.  I mean, just look at this week's news about Acts 29.


The specifics in this post may seem like "old news" but they certainly seem to inform Driscoll's entire character and his body of work.  They show earlier signs of an apparent continued lack of integrity and honesty.


But, really, if you want to ask WHY this information is being brought up now, you should ask Turner or the dozens of other bloggers who are covering him.  Or Charisma News even.  I'm just guessing at the whys.

jinanorah
jinanorah

@BartBreen @JeffPreuss Bart, I love how you lambaste your Brother-in-Christ and basically mock him for allegedly defending Pastor Mark (which he wasn't) and then tell him to "have a nice day".  Typical.  

JeffPreuss
JeffPreuss

@BartBreen @JeffPreuss Bart!  Hey, you misunderstood my point (which means I probably didn't clearly make it) -- I think Driscoll is not a pleasant guy!  I am not defending him whatsoever.  I was pointing out to you that it's amusing to see people attack Turner, claiming he's ONLY covering this to promote his book, when scores of other people are covering the story.


It was more of a response to all Driscoll's defenders on here who claim he's "biblical" and that this is just a smear campaign.


Really.  Go back and look at what I said (and my other comments in here) - I'm not defending Driscoll at all.  I was defending Turner.  I just addressed it to you because I agree with you.  :)


(As I said to...flounderfoot, I think...earlier, I'm probably way too feminine for them to care about my opinions of Driscoll.)


I totally should have clarified in my first sentence that I meant accusations against Turner, that the only reason he covers this is for book promotion.


JeffPreuss
JeffPreuss

@Christ_Fit @BartBreen Interesting, I didn't know I was "chapped."  I certainly don't feel "chapped."

But, nice deflection away from the refuting of your accusation that Turner is simply blogging about this to drum up book sales.

Let's say that JK Rowling uses her wealth to buy her way onto the NYT Best Seller list...who cares?  Literary popularity isn't something with which I'm preoccupied, so I'm not worried if she uses this deception.

NOW, let's say that a faith leader who is purportedly professing the truth of the Word of our Lord and Savior uses his church's funds to buy his way onto that same list -- it's an explicit display of dishonesty that should be anathema to a person in his position of a Christian leader.


Oh, and I simply don't see him as calling "it like it is" -- instead it appears that he is twisting the Scripture to build up his oppressive regime of misogynists.    Many of us disagree that it's "dead on with what the Bible teaches."  No one here is pretending to be perfect.

flounderfoot
flounderfoot

@Christ_Fit @BartBreen @JeffPreuss


All this has nothing to do with Mark Driscoll and probably has more to do with sin in our own lives.  We frankly don't like it when someone confronts us in our own sin, and Mark does that.  He is certainly a sinner too, but it doesn't take away from the fact that he is on target with what he says most of the time. It just becomes an excuse to avoid the truth.


I don't agree that Mark is trying to drum up sales for his book.  This was "discovered" by those whose intent is try to destroy him as a pastor.

flounderfoot
flounderfoot

@BartBreen @Christ_Fit @JeffPreuss


Bart, misogymy is "hatred of women".  


I'd suggest that you don't judge the heart of a man, because frankly it isn't your job and just aren't qualified for it.  If you find yourself doing it, you should probably take all of the contexts of what someone says ... not bits and pieces of it to make your point.


What Mark said was crass.  But it wasn't hateful towards women.  It might have been angry towards women that tell men that they should act like a woman and not be responsible for their own actions.  But that is very different from "hatred of women."


I actually agree with the anger that Mark has.  Because the fruit of it is men that do not lead, do not take care of their wives and children, and do not act like spiritual leaders that God has called them to be.  I hate that behavior, because ... it hurts women and children.  Having a "pussified" man, is hurtful to women.


If you honestly wanted to know the character of the man's heart, then you would recognize how he treats and honors his wife and daughters.  If you want to slander a person's character, then you take bits and pieces of what he says to pull him down and boost yourself up.


I am not a member of Mars Hill.  But I strongly appreciate the honest language that Mark Driscoll shares in his sermons and wished that more pastors would speak as the men that God has called them to be.  The ranting done 14 years ago ... doesn't describe who the person is today.

meghanphelisa
meghanphelisa

@JeffPreuss @meghanphelisa @BartBreen

"The content of my postings to that discussion board does not reflect how I feel, or how I would conduct myself today," he told his church members Friday. "Over the past 14 years I have changed, and, by God's grace, hope to continue to change. I also hope people I have offended and disappointed will forgive me."  taken from http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2014/august/mark-driscoll-crude-comments-william-wallace-mars-hill.html?paging=off

As someone who has followed his work over several years, I do not see this as a pattern.  He has become progressively more forgiving and graceful.  I have heard him make any remarks even close to comparable to these old ones over the years I have followed his sermons, blogs, etc.  

Once something resurfaces like this, of course it's going to travel.  It's interesting and some people find this sort of dirt fun.  I find it heart breaking how easily we write off other believers. 

As far as the cult-  a surprising number of churches are labeled cults, especially by disgruntled past members (who seem to be the fuel behind the concerns).  I'm pretty careful with the title, and will definitely be doing some research on this one, but currently see it to be pretty unfounded.

BartBreen
BartBreen

It's even better than that. I apologized. He accepted and we've become friends behind the scenes .... and that bothers you? Is that typical of you?

That's what a real apology looks like. If you've been watching Driscoll, maybe you haven't seen anything like that before and that's why you're confused.

sbgdelrayshane
sbgdelrayshane

What he said is sadly so true...as a pastor and a man of God he is obviously in the wrong but the point he is trying to get across is spot on with what is wrong with particularly white America today

BartBreen
BartBreen

@JeffPreuss @BartBreen No Problem Jeff and I'm sorry I misread the tone and intent.  That's common unfortunately in written posts.  My bad and thanks for the correction.  ;)

Christ_Fit
Christ_Fit

@JeffPreuss Sorry but he's not the first to do it, and certainly not the last. In fact most on that list have done it. So if you're going to point fingers, be sure to get them all.... especially the Christian authors. Granted he's held to a higher standard and whether he agreed with it or not, he should do the right thing now since it's his book. 


I don't get the whole misogyny label folks try to give him. I've yet to hear or read anything that even remotely puts him in that category. I would almost label him more of a man hater because of how tough he is on men, but then again most of us act more like man boys than mature Christian men.


What I do see is a world filled with folks who don't want to live by the teaching of Christ and instead want to play pretend.... kinda like having a get out of hell free card to play. Most people, myself included, don't like it when they sin and get caught. Even more try to make excuses or shift the blame just like Adam did. In the end we are either his disciples or we aren't. Those who are have to pick up and carry on. Throwing stones at folks to divert attention off ourselves is sinful and foolish... eventually we all get caught. So man up, and stop making excuses cause you plank is getting in the way.

mdcraig
mdcraig

@flounderfoot @BartBreen @Christ_Fit @JeffPreuss


"Pussifed" is offensive to THIS woman and the suggestion that only men are fit for leadership or that Christian marriage couldn't possibly exist between equals who lead together is just as offensive. Remember that the first three people to spread the Gospel were the women at the tomb. You might also recall that Christ insisted that Mary and Martha join the theological discussion after dinner, rather than cleaning up after men, as was their conventional role. He always supported the dignity of women. Hopefully Driscoll has grown up a bit since letting loose with his misogynistic screed. Some women are called to leadership roles. Perhaps Driscoll should step aside and see what he might learn from them.

JeffPreuss
JeffPreuss

@meghanphelisa @JeffPreuss @BartBreen I'd not seen what he said in that day.  Up until that point, either he hadn't apologized for WHAT he said, or it was fairly well unreported.


Still, I would counter your accusation that Turner did this for book publicity - the date he posted this blog entry was the same date that Mars Hill dissenters publicized the 14-year old rant. (Links in the article you posted.)  So, rather than assuming that Turner himself is trying to tear down the man, you might wonder aloud at why former members and leaders of his church would make this public now.  Turner and many others picked up on it, but people who used to be part of Driscoll's "flock" thought it was relevant to bring it to light.  These former members are the ones who are alleging abuse of power and cult of personality in a public manner - it's open for discussion and different viewpoints.


Has he become more forgiving and graceful?  I don't know.  Great if he has!  May he continue to grow as an example unto Christ.

JeffPreuss
JeffPreuss

@BartBreen Oh, gosh, he's talking about you lambasting me?  I chalk that up to a simple misunderstanding.  My wording wasn't necessarily the clearest, and emotions and passions can run high when it comes to matters of faith.


"Have a great day!" is something I usually say, even to those I consider the most strident of opponents.  Because, as a Christian, I even want those with whom I vehemently disagree to have a nice day.  And, I really mean it.  I have never wished ill upon my "enemies," as tempting as it might be.


But, yeah, @jinanorah, Bart and I worked things out.  He's a good guy, who quite handily owned up to and part he had in the confusion between us.  He apologized and meant it.

JeffPreuss
JeffPreuss

@Christ_Fit @JeffPreuss "Man up" and "stop making excuses?"  Don't worry; I'm probably way too feminine for you to really care about my opinion.


No one's making excuses here.  Just calling your arguments out as you make them and responding to them as you try to deflect.  Driscoll is not looking like an exceptionally fit Christian leader.


Again, no one here is pretending to be perfect.  I live by the teachings of Christ, and it reflects a FAR different attitude than Driscoll's.  Just as he's allowed to point out what he finds distasteful and unbiblical (or "unmanly), so are those of us on the other side of the fence.


It seems like you are actually the one making excuses for Driscoll and shifting the blame, but maybe that's just me.


Have a great day!

flounderfoot
flounderfoot

@mdcraig @flounderfoot @BartBreen @Christ_Fit @JeffPreuss


Sorry you are offended by "pussification", especially when the context has nothing to do with you.  (Maybe you shouldn't be inserted yourself into this since it has NOTHING to do with you)


..... I'm offended that you would lie and mischaracterize Mark Dricsoll and others.


"the suggestion that only men are fit for leadership or that Christian marriage couldn't possibly exist between equals who lead together is just as offensive"


I'm fairly confident that he never said that, in fact I've heard him say just the opposite.  So quit lying and slandering the guy.  It's ... a little offensive.  :-)

jinanorah
jinanorah

@JeffPreuss @BartBreen Jeff, thank you for clarifying that.  Spoken like a true Christian brother should.  


Bart, again, you respond with malice "Maybe you haven't seen anything like that before and that's why you're confused".  I'm not confused about anything except why you think it's acceptable to pull your passive/aggressiveness on me.  You have a blessed day.  (not sarcastically).  I'll be praying for you.

Trackbacks

  1. […] His theology is in many ways at odds with contemporary culture, including an unapologetic belief in complementarianism — the idea that men and women have different roles to play — which in practice has meant that women do not serve as pastors or elders at Mars Hill, and he urges husbands to lead their wives and wives to submit to their husbands. He has objected to chauvinism, as well as feminism, but his critics say that, at his worst, he has had a tendency to objectify women and denigrate gays. […]

  2. […] “Some have publicly brought up issues that were long ago addressed and resolved, adding to the understandable confusion that many of you may have been experiencing recently,” Driscoll said, referencing his recent “William Wallace” controversy as an example, and noting he had already taken “full responsibility for those actions, and will forever be ashamed by what I did. [Click here to view his crude comments as William Wallace II.] […]