Hey Church, Can We All Just Calm the ‘Duck’ Down

phil-robertson-p11

BREAKING NEWS: The Christian Dynasty in America is angry today! In fact, they are really really angry!

No, they’re not angry about the number of homeless people roaming our city streets. And no, they’re not angry about the number of children dying everyday from malnutrition. And no, their anger isn’t about President Obama (though give them some time, they’ll connect the dots soon enough).

So why are so many members of America’s Church up in arms today, filling up our Facebook and Twitter feeds with complaints, threats, and demands?

Because one of their beloved, Duck Dynasty‘s Phil Robertson, is being persecuted y’all. Yes, PERSECUTED! No, he’s not being held hostage by Bible-haters somewhere in Southeast Asia. It’s worse than that. The eldest member of America’s favorite reality TV family has been suspended indefinitely by A&E! I know, right? This is some serious prayer chain fodder for sure.

Now, why did A&E suspend Robertson? Well, because of comments the star made during an interview with GQ writer, Drew Magary. What did he say? Here are a few quotes…

On the topic of homosexuality: “Start with homosexual behavior and just morph out from there. Bestiality, sleeping around with this woman and that woman and that woman and those men. Don’t be deceived. Neither the adulterers, the idolaters, the male prostitutes, the homosexual offenders, the greedy, the drunkards, the slanderers, the swindlers—they won’t inherit the kingdom of God. Don’t deceive yourself. It’s not right.”

On why he believes vaginas are better than anuses: “It seems like, to me, a vagina—as a man—would be more desirable than a man’s anus. That’s just me. I’m just thinking: There’s more there! She’s got more to offer. I mean, come on, dudes! You know what I’m saying? But hey, sin: It’s not logical, my man. It’s just not logical.”

On growing up with African Americans “pre-entitlement”: “I never, with my eyes, saw the mistreatment of any black person. Not once. Where we lived was all farmers. The blacks worked for the farmers. I hoed cotton with them. I’m with the blacks, because we’re white trash. We’re going across the field…. They’re singing and happy. I never heard one of them, one black person, say, ‘I tell you what: These doggone white people’—not a word!… Pre-entitlement, pre-welfare, you say: Were they happy? They were godly; they were happy; no one was singing the blues.”

Read more here and here.

A few hours after GQ posted that interview online, A&E suspended Phil. And that’s when a plethora of Christians began erupting into boisterous protest. My Facebook feed turned into a Duck Dynasty lament, a chaotic display of fury. Some Christians offered prayers. Some bemoaned that, in America, “freedom of speech” was officially dead. Some Christians offered phone numbers, links, and addresses, encouraging their friends to voice their disgust to A&E. Some Christians updated their statuses with opinions that bordered on insane.

Can we–members of the American Church–all just calm down for a moment and look at ourselves? Because we look ridiculous. We look foolish. And worst of all, some of us sound downright ignorant. Because how we respond to events like this matters—ducking matters!

First of all, stop making this about freedom of speech. This isn’t a freedom of speech issue. Trust me, read Phil’s interview. The Dynasty patriarch possessed all the freedom in the world to say exactly what he wanted to say. But sometimes, depending on who’s offering the paycheck, there are consequences to what we say. That’s been true since America’s beginning, while you have the freedom to say nearly anything you want to say in America. Sometimes saying whatever you feel like saying comes with a backlash. This isn’t about Phil’s freedom of speech; it’s about what—and more specifically—how Phil expressed his opinions that caused A&E to push the pause button. So please, if you’re going to complain, complain with wisdom. Have your facts straight. Understand the real issue here. Don’t stoop to Sarah Palin’s level.

Secondly, remember this is about a reality TV show, a meaningless TV show about a family of outspoken rich hunters. It’s just entertainment, people! Some Christians seem to believe this is a really important thing to be angry about. But it’s not. Did you know that 500 people were killed in Sudan yesterday? Did you voice your grievance about that? Because that’s actually important. Whether or not Phil ever appears on Duck Dynasty is completely meaningless in comparison. So let’s get our priorities in order here. There are much more important events happening in the world.

Thirdly, we the Church need to remember that, regardless if you agree 100 percent with every single comment Phil said in the interview, some people were deeply offended by his comments regarding homosexuality and race. Your support of Phil and Phil’s messages, whether you mean it this way or not, is hurtful toward other people. And that should matter to us. Why? Because we are the ones who proclaim the grace and mercy and love of Christ. And Christ cares about those who are offended by Phil’s speech. Some people call Phil’s words homophobic. Others seem to believe his comments about the African American community are racist. It doesn’t matter if you don’t agree. It doesn’t matter that Phil didn’t mean it that way. That’s what happens when we speak our minds in the media. We end up saying things that hurt or offend other people. And we, those who declare the way of Jesus, need to care about that. So please, before you support one rich celebrity hunter with your opinion, remember that your affections for DD might be deeply offending a large group of people. And if that doesn’t matter to you, that’s your problem, not theirs. Because as followers of Jesus, that should matter.

Fourthly, as you’re raging against A&E for putting Phil on suspension, it might behoove you to consider whether or not your own church would welcome Phil in all of his ‘Duck’ glory in their congregation or on their stage without some major edits to his lifestyle, speech, or overall image. Maybe you go to one of the few churches that accepts people–all people–just as they are. And perhaps your church would welcome Phil as he is to your congregation. But how long would it last? How many times would he get away with saying the words “vagina” or “anus” in public without getting a talking to from the pastor? How many churches would allow somebody to stand up in their congregations and say what Phil said regarding black Americans? Maybe some. But in many churches, those words would raise much concern. So really, do any of us have any room to judge A&E’s decision when most of us go to churches that tend to try and micromanage people like Phil? Would Phil be able to teach Sunday School at your church? Would you allow him to be a deacon? And remember, it wasn’t too long ago that a church/ministry canceled an appearance by the Duck Dynasty crew because they have their own brand of wine. So before you lash out at A&E for “being closed minded liberal Hollywood elite,” remember that America’s “rightwing conservative elitist” Church has a lengthy record for putting people on “hiatus” for a myriad of reasons. Let’s not be hypocrites on this.

And lastly, remember that it is we who, every single Sunday, proclaim the values of kindness, love, humility, hope, grace, and mercy. While these virtues are not exclusively “Christian values,” as America’s biggest religion, most Americans, regardless of their spiritual creeds, are well aware that it is Christianity that preaches these values of Christ as the best standards for living. A&E does not preach these values. Some of their directors might love Jesus, but the Beatitudes are not their brand. GLAAD does not promote on a weekly basis the values of Christ. They might LOVE Jesus, but it’s not something they proclaim on a regular basis as their mantra. But we do. Christians do promote the Beatitudes as their creed. So while it’s fine and necessary for us to look in the mirror and judge how we are adhering to Jesus’s teachings against hate, pride, calamity, and the like, we do not have the right to cast judgment on other groups of people or individuals who do not share our beliefs. Hatred or unkindness from other people or groups is no excuse for us to return hate with hate. Regardless what A&E ultimately decides, we are the ones who should respond with humility, grace, and mercy. Because that’s our creed. That’s what we preach every damn Sunday. That’s the message that we believe speaks louder than protest, anger, and hate. So remember that as your tweeting your frustrations about Phil and Phil’s messaging.

And in the end, Church, Phil will survive this. He might not be on TV. But he’ll survive. But to us, the Church–those of us who lift up the values of Christ–how we respond to these kinds of situations, whether they are meaningless or of great importance, will be remembered long after the controversy is over. Why? Because when we act like fools, we are adding our foolishness to a legacy of foolishness that America’s Church has become well-known for.

So let’s be wise.

Let’s be careful.

Let’s get our priorities in order.

And for God’s sake, let’s all calm the duck down.

UPDATE: Read a follow-up post here.

1275 comments
djjenkins98
djjenkins98

Over simplification and I guess the author got his article read.  Not impressive!

RobynnMussell
RobynnMussell

Absolutely right, IMHO.  If Phil's comments and statements were to be read completely and in their entirety, there would be cause for alarm, and A&E took the proper stance because there's no warning prior to the show's airing:  "The opinions and statements made in this program are not necessarily the opinions and views of A&E.  This program is for entertainment purposes only.  Some of the content can be explicit." or at least something to that effect.

It makes not difference who we are and where we grew up, as long as God's grace and wisdom flow through us like a raging river.  We must acknowledge ever person with whom we meet, shake a hand or offer a hand to help, and realize that's what God would do.  I agree that Phil is outspoken and has his beliefs about people and it's his view, not the law or the policies of the land.  It's his own opinion.  People tend to forget that an opinion is just like a nose, everyone has one, and that where you stick it really depends on your beliefs and realizations.

Perception, in this day and age, is thrown our the window for fact.  These two things are not interchangeable!  You perceive with your mind and you see with your eyes.  It is the "perception" of Phil's persecution by A&E that you seem to be adamant about, as if Phil's getting the shaft.  In some ways, he is, but it's not for you to judge or criticize-- it's what A&E did to try to soften Phil's opinion by not having him return to the show.  It is a reality show, and things get said, but talking to the camera, or in an interview, and letting "your hair down" to get to what you believe is not necessarily the correct course of action, or is it appropriate.


Speeches are one thing, and Phil was not speaking as if he had this great idea and decided to go on a lecturing tour to prophecy his Christian values-- Phil's Christian values-- and offer tirade after tirade and tell people how he "sees", how he *perceives* the world through his eyes and mind.  He didn't and it was an interview.  The questions were screened, and Phil answered them the way Phil would.  As soon as A&E saw the transcripts of the interview, because that's how these things work, A&E decided to pull the plug on Phil Robertson's unadulterated, unedited style of speaking.  Remember, Phil was also warned about praying by A&E executives because it might offend the Muslims.  Phil was upset over this, but refused to conform with A&E's request.

Nothing you do, short of the perpetuation of hate and lies, will make you look foolish and unintelligent to others.  This is something we can control.  Think before you speak.  Take you time and formulate your answers to questions that are posed, and try to look better in others' perception than just what they see,.

lynne0652
lynne0652

So Matthew, it would appear, (if this thread is any indication), that NO! we can't all just "calm the duck down"!  Too many riled-up legalists straining gnats and swallowing camels.  Pity, isn't it?  Great article and thanks for posting your very reasonable thoughts.


Oh, come Jesus!

lynne0652
lynne0652

The best and truest way for us Christians to defend traditional, biblical marriage is to hold our own marriages in high and holy honor and esteem.  But that is not happening as divorce rates and high incidence of adultery, pornography, neglect and abuse will testify.  What hypocrites we are.


How indeed do THEY (the gay community) tolerate US (Christians)?

jnk2
jnk2

 What I don't see mentioned here is that the "Law", as almost everyone refers to it, is actually not just one "Law" or set of laws.  The "Law" can be divided into different parts.  For instance, God's moral law, which existed before the "Mosaic" law. People before Moses knew that God expected sacrifices (see Cain & Abel) and tithes.  Sacrifices didn't just come along with Mosaic Law. In fact, the shedding of blood has always been part of God's plan for the redemption of sinful mankind. Abraham paid tithes to Melchisidec (spelling?) before tithing was mentioned anywhere else in the Bible.  So, obviously God communicated expectations to His people before the Mosaic Law.  How else could anyone previous to Moses live a holy life pleasing to God?  Enoch lived before Moses, and he was so pleasing to God that God took him up into heaven (Hebrews 11:5).
Also, God mentions certain things that are an abomination unto Him. and other things that were an abomination to the people of Israel.  These that are mentioned as an abomination to Him are part of His moral law and they do not change.  Things that are an abomination to the people of Israel were intended for the Israelites and no one else. God said, "For I am the LORD, I change not" (Malachi 3:6).  God's nature and character does not change....how he deals with or relates to man may change, but His nature, character, holiness does not change.  God changed how blood was used to redeem or atone for sin....first in sacrifices and then through the blood of Christ today our sins are forgiven.  This doesn't mean that God changed.  He still requires blood.
The Mosaic Law can be divided into judicial law meant to govern the nation of Israel, ceremonial law intended to be used for religious ordinances (which Christ fulfilled in the New Testament) and also God’s moral law was certainly included in the Law of Moses (since God’s moral law never changes).
Its very easy and unfortunately ignorant today to lump everything in the Old Testament together as “The Law” and then be critical of Christians today who “keep this law” and “ignore that law”.  First you have to have knowledge of what type of law the particular ordinance fall under.  If it was ceremonial law, then those those things were fulfilled by Christ and are no longer valid.  If it was part of the judicial law intended for the nation of Israel, then of course those things do not apply to us Gentiles, but if it is God’s moral law, then those are still in effect today.
Remember, Jesus said He did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it.  Blood was required in the Old Testament and is still required today for our salvation.  Paul said “For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins” (Hebrews 10:4) but we know that the blood of Jesus Christ certainly washes our sins away through baptism.  Jesus fulfilled the ceremonial law of the Old Testament by becoming the perfect sacrifice for sin and was offered one time for us.  The sacrifices of animals had to be done yearly because they were not perfect (Hebrews 10:1) but the blood of Jesus was only offered one time (Hebrews 10:12) “But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever”.

RobDrury
RobDrury

@lynne0652 Okay; this thread has gotten WAY off the beaten path.  This article was about the relative rights of two parties to their opinions, where those rights may have been exceeded, and how we deal when those rights conflict.  The "legalists" are entitled to their opinions too.  What so many of them, myself and Phil included, are being lambasted for (ironically in an allegedly Christian forum) is presenting and adhering to what is not an opinion at all; that God, while He certainly loves the individuals engaging in it, finds homosexuality revolting.  That's not "legalism," it is reality; and not only is it okay to point it out, it's not okay not to when confronted with the issue.

jnk2
jnk2

@lynne0652How does someone else committing sin (adultery, pornography, neglect, abuse) let you off the hook for your own sins?  The Bible teaches that God will hold each of us responsible for our OWN sins.  If I believe that homosexuality is wrong, then does that allow me to say, "Well, because Lynne is gay and committing sin, then I'm not responsible for my sin of, lets say (hypothetically!) adultery?  Of course not!  We need to stop justifying sins by pointing out another persons sins.  The Bible doesn't support forgiveness of sin by pointing at another sin.

RobynnMussell
RobynnMussell

@lynne0652This is NOT the case!  Traditional, Biblical marriage also states that a rapist and his victim are married, a man and multiple wives, and a man a woman and several concubines/mistresses is a "traditional marriage".


Divorce rates are not attributed to pornography and that's present in many "traditional" marriages.  Adultery, neglect and abuse attribute to a small portion of divorce rates in the US.  Nothing states that marriage equality is going to take your loving spouse away from you, nor will it.  Gays, Lesbians, Bi-sexuals, Transgendered AND Heterosexual people all are God's children.  We should be showing our brothers- and sisters-in-Jesus love, compassion, grace, humility and acceptance.  What their sexual preference is none of your concern.  Love is a Universal Truth.  Love conquers all.


How would you feel if someone asked you:  "When did you decide to become heterosexual?"  This is the kind of stigma that many in the LGBT community (as a group) have to live with, from the likes of God-fearing Christians.  Laws should be passed to further Inalienable Human Rights and bestow upon ALL people, Equal Rights for employment, spousal benefits and marriage (should this be what the LGBT community wants), and not have fearful Christians vying for hateful and restrictive laws that limit or deny those Inalienable Human Rights:  the pursuit of Life, Liberty and Happiness!


I'm sorry.  All men, and women, in God's eyes, are created equal.  If this statement bothers you, I am truly sorry.  This is how I feel and I am a Good Christian.  I am also a transgender woman and lesbian.  I speak for myself and the thousands of my constituents, colleagues and cohorts that this is the kind of rhetoric that is stalling ENDA in the House and keeping all of us from being able to truly help and reach out to everyone, through God's Will and God's Grace.


Understand:  This is not a debate against Christians.  It is a debate for the morality and the duty all Christians have toward their fellows.  To show tolerance.  To show acceptance.  I'm not expecting you to fully comprehend my change in life, but this is not a change in "lifestyle":  it is a change in "life" that must take place to allow many of us to remain stoic in our beliefs and to remain happy where we are and with what we can call ours.


We are not out for your spouses.  We are not out to undermine your own marriage and spousal relationships.  This is not our purpose.  This never was our purpose.  I guess you could say, from the standpoint of someone on the outside looking in, and observing from afar, like so many science-fiction aliens:  "We come in peace."  Truly, we do.


And that Christian of us to do so.

KellyDenoyerRussell
KellyDenoyerRussell

@lynne0652 I agree. However if we wait until we are perfect to speak out against sin then we will never be able to come out against sin EVER!  Thru our acceptance/tolerance shall we let them continue down a path to hell?  Is is better to just be nice and get along?  Do we not speak out against politcal issues that can morally effect major change in our society?  Changes that effect what is taught in schools?  Changes that result in Christians assisting in abortion?  or being a part of wedding ceremonies?  Pedophilia is next.  Read what is going on in Canada right now. They are sayiing they are born that way and soon they will have rights....what shocks us now will be the new norm tomorrow.

RichardGelina
RichardGelina

@lynne0652 I agree. And that is the reason why the bible includes the book of James even though such notables as Martin Luther thought it should not have been included in the canon of scripture. We must show our faith through our works, as James proclaims, and we must call sin sin, as all the other epistles (plus James) say. 

jnk2
jnk2

Jesus did not fulfill and thereby invalidate the moral law of God.  He fulfilled the ceremonial law as related to religious ordinances and sacrifices.  If God ever said "this is an abomination to me", then He will NEVER change His viewpoint that that is a sin.  It will always BE sin.

lynne0652
lynne0652

@RobDrury


Rob, you said this:  "it's not okay not to when confronted with the issue."


I disagree.  When there is this much mainstream Christian hypocrisy, confusion and inability to rightfully handle the word of God, and relentless condemnation, isolation and even abuse of LGBTQ folks (who, by the way, are visited with SSA in their innocence - a stark contrast to dirty-handed Christians engaging in porn and adultery in their mature years), then yes Rob, it is VERY OKAY to back off the soapbox a bit.  


Maybe folks who really care could take some time to gain a better perspective, more education, more prayerful understanding of the gospel.  Spend a little more than 30 minutes a week thinking and yakking about gays when they see a new FB status or read the latest news tidbit.


These folks are living it 24/7 year in and year out, some don't make it out alive.  And the truth is, they don't have to change to come to Christ - that is not a requirement that I know of - God wants us to come to Him JUST AS WE ARE.  Gay behaviors from committed Christians pale in significance to the vast riches and reward of knowing Him and journeying with Him from now through eternity.


God's got this one.  He doesn't really need our so called 'help', does He? 

RobynnMussell
RobynnMussell

RobDrury: How can you say that "God ... finds homosexuality revolting"?  When have you ever been in Our Creator's mind and speak from Our Creator's mouth?  You are placing your own revulsion in God's mouth and that revolts me.


Please speak from your own mouth and NOT God's.  When will you "revolting" Christians realize that YOU DO NOT SPEAK FOR GOD!  God will act and speak for Himself.

lynne0652
lynne0652

RobynnMussell

I hear you Robyn and I am very glad you are Christian.  I believe you!  Your heart is in the right place if you honor and seek after the Lord.  Our journey with God is the most important relationship in our lives and I pray you can help bring that message of love and hope to your friends. 


We all need to come to Him just as we are, sinners in need of The Savior.  I trust He will lead you to all Truth as He is leading me also and has been my faithful friend and counselor these past 25 years.  I'm so glad He takes away our sin and remembers it no more.  I'm glad He gives us His indwelling Holy Spirit so we are now the very righteousness of Christ.  


2 Cor 5:21

For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 


I am glad we are no longer slaves to sin and no longer under the law which is death.  I still pour over Romans again and again, esp. chapter 7, to learn more about the law and what it means to be rid of it and yet still there can be sin in my flesh.  It's overwhelming to wrap our heads around it at times, do you think?  And even Paul struggled to grasp his new nature in the spirit and all that it meant.  Do you have similar struggles as you "work out your salvation with the Holy Spirit"?   


Philippians 2:12-13

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.


But beyond all these difficulties, surely the beauty and simplicity of Jesus' fulfillment of all of the law and His giving a New Covenant shines through and over-arches the gospels and the epistles.  And the covenant is between Jesus and God - not us - so it cannot be broken.  Jesus gave us a new command - beyond even loving each other as we love ourselves, because that kind of love is often a broken, painful love.  He commands us now to love others as He loves us.  Perfect love, given perfectly.  We miss that mark, but hopefully, we come closer and closer every day.


Hebrews 12:24

and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant.  

2 Corinthians 3:6

Our sufficiency is from God who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

John 13:34

A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.

lynne0652
lynne0652

@RobynnMussell

Hello Robyn - you may have misunderstood my initial comment above.  I am not saying that pornography, adultery, neglect and abuse are responsible for high divorce rates.  I was not pointing out the causes of divorce at all.  I am saying something very different.   Please read this post as I try to explain it better and let me know your thoughts.


Here is God's truth that well-meaning, yet hurtful Christians (who relentlessly take others to task for their gayness) need to focus their attentions on:  in this country, (and perhaps the world), there is nothing more destructive to traditional (heterosexual) marriages and to displacing families and harming children than ALL OF THESE that I mentioned - divorce AND adultery AND pornography AND neglect AND abuse.  And all of these happen within the Christian community in alarmingly high rates making homosexual activities pale in comparison.  The first three are absolutely rampant in our community, and still we preach on and on about godly marriage?           


To hear us talk, (in the mainstream Christian majority). you'd think it was gay relationships that are ruining God's precious marital and familial foundations, but OMG, it is us and our own even far more evil and weightier transgressions that are leading the way. 


Generally speaking, for the most part, when prayerful reflection is given this truth, good folks easily recognize their error and hypocrisy and when they recover from the shame of it, their voices change - in both tone and content.   We are not required to change what we believe but the more we know God, His Truth and His Love, the less we are compelled to beat anyone up about sin - especially sexual sin.  It is time to tend to our own burning homes and let the Lord have His way with this precious hurting segment of our population - our gay family members and friends.

RobDrury
RobDrury

@RobynnMussell @lynne0652  


"Gays, Lesbians, Bi-sexuals, Transgendered AND Heterosexual people all are God's children."


As I stated elsewhere in this thread, that depends on how one defines "God's children."  God defines His children as those who know Him personally through redemption in Christ.  It is quite safe to say that relatively very few gays, lesbians, or Bisexuals are His children. At the same time, let me reiterate that I in no way single out homosexuality as anything more significant or heinous than any other sin; but a lifestyle so adamantly centered around sin, or such a blatant ignorance of God's will is most certainly a strong indicator of a lack of relationship with the Father.



"We should be showing our brothers- and sisters-in-Jesus love, compassion, grace, humility and acceptance."


I couldn't agree more; but nothing in this statement in any way justifies lying to them about their lifestyle.



"What their sexual preference is none of your concern."


Until they attempt to shift societal standards and laws; then it's absolutely my business.



"Love is a Universal Truth."


It sure is.  Unfortunately, far too few understand love as defined by the God who created, and is, love.  Nothing in His definition is consistent with homosexuality.




RobynnMussell
RobynnMussell

@KellyDenoyerRussellYou are gravely mistaken, unfortunately.  What you have read is true, about the studies in Canada.  it's also been proven in Sweden, the UK, Australia and Japan.  We are not trying to force you into understanding what we have been persecuted for and against, but it truly is morally offensive to me, and to many of my LGBT friends and family, as we are all Christians under the same God.


Pedophilia is a crime.  Plain and simple.  These perverse hypocrites need to be dealt with according to the laws.  We in the LGBT community are NOT the perverted sexual deviants, as you suggest.  We are not.  We have never been that way.  Your fear of the unknown, xenophobia, is what's gripping you and telling you what to believe.  This is not Godly nor is it God's influence.  Fear has never been a Godly act.


I am a transgender woman and lesbian.  I am a kind and compassionate person, through the Will and Grace of God, and I cannot idly stand by and have you criticize and attack anyone that is like me, learning they are like or that they are being repressed by people like you and your inability to wrap your mind around one simple Godly act:  Love.  It is stated in the Bible:  "Love thy neighbor."  This does NOT mean to castrate yourself before your neighbor and be her slave to all things-- this is not the idea-- it is to be compassionate, graceful, humble and truthful with your neighbor, showing her love and kindness.


By denying someone their basic needs, employment and residence, you are condemning that person to never be happy, never have a real life and to never understand what it means to have liberty.  Human rights are needed to help perpetuate securities in life that you take for granted every day.  I'm not here to dispense hateful rhetoric.  I'm not here to offend, but I am here to try to open your eyes to the reality of your statements and your perceived fallacy about those statements.


God has never said he wanted you, personally, to be forcing yourself upon others in a sexual manner.  This act is amoral and disgusting.  You cannot be attain perfection, as God's Perfection, while holding on to the very notions of hatred and bigotry by denying other humans "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" through the use of laws that deny us of our dignity and human rights.


I'm not on a bent or tirade, here.  I am not.  I am just speaking from the heart and that's what God would have me do.  He speaks to me more than I care to admit, and He's ALWAYS right.  It's not on anyone to judge anyone else, this is all God's Realm.  I hope you can see and perceive, the idiocy that you are trying to promote, and ask God for His Forgiveness to mend your straying ways.  I pray that you will.

lynne0652
lynne0652

@KellyDenoyerRussell @lynne0652  


Kelly, why not tend to our own burning houses and let the Lord deal with the lost as they come to Him' just as they are'?  If not, we are like clanging cymbals and hypocrites of the very worst kind.  


Our own Christian marriage and family travails are causing far more destruction in quantity and vileness (adultery and pornography specifically) than homosexual activities.  It might be different if we could offer our own good and godly marriages as models to aspire to - but we do not.  Our hypocrisy is insidious and far more reprehensible to Christ than the sin we are condemning.  This is obvious by looking at the people who inspired anger and disappointment in Jesus and why they did so (Matthew 23).  


We are doing a miserable job of winning the lost to Christ.  Just miserable!  Nothing is gained - nothing except further isolation from God for people who are struggling and literally jumping off cliffs to be rid of the pain.


It's as if we Christians are standing between God and His beloved children like a firing squad, locked, loaded and ready to fire at anyone who dares to come close to the Lord before we get our hands on them to 'straighten them out'.  


How do we live with ourselves, I wonder sometimes?  And after we send them away and put down our guns, more than half of us will run to our computers, surf for porn and pleasure ourselves with the same hands that will hold the Holy Bible in the morning, praying for those 'homos to see the light'.  Disgusting hypocrites!

WilliamShelton1
WilliamShelton1

@KellyDenoyerRussellso would you care to back up your claim, or, rather, insinuation, that Canada is on the road to granting pedophiles rights? How about some context? Credible sources? It seems to me that the only places that are broadcasting and supporting your claims are groups like StormFront, you know, that paragon of neo-Nazi Christians who are long on hate and extremely short on love for anyone who is not a white, heterosexual non-Catholic, non-Orthodox "Christian" (i.e., their definition, not mine).

KentStraith
KentStraith

@KellyDenoyerRussell@lynne0652I'm not certain what's going on in Canada, but pedophiles DO have rights and SHOULD have rights...as long as they live within and obey the law. There's not, in my lifetime, going to be a law in any country in the modern world that de-criminalizes sexual conduct with a minor. Pedophilia is NOT "next". because the public will not allow it. Bestiality is NOT next, largely because nobody wants to do it and it's largely an invented bogeyman. There is a difference between conduct between legal, consenting, rational actors and sexual assault.


And yes, Kelly, at some point, you have to let somebody go down a path to Hell. The logical extreme is kidnapping and brainwashing them, and you probably wouldn't have that. When somebody makes their choice on how to live, and your feelings are known and there's been a discussion, it's over. At that point, yes...it's better to get along.

RichardGelina
RichardGelina

@KellyDenoyerRussell @lynne0652 Kelly... your comment brought a tear to my eye. You are so right! We need to seek the Lord in prayer. He is in control, and he weeps at the wickedness too. We are not alone. And he will win. 

lynne0652
lynne0652

@RichardGelina @lynne0652


If you think we are called to relentlessly harass gays by pointing our condemning fingers at them while our own houses are rotting from sin, then I almost feel sorry for you and your tremendous ignorance of the true work of Jesus Christ.  Almost.   

lynne0652
lynne0652

@jnk2 

Where did you get that?  Jesus fulfilled all of the law and the prophets according to his own words in Matthew 5:17, 18.


Where in the bible does it say which laws are 'moral' laws?

SueRoediger
SueRoediger

@jnk2 therefore .............. all of Leviticus is still God's abomination ............. yes?

Sleepless in FL
Sleepless in FL

@KentStraith @Sleepless in FL @RobDrury @SueRoediger @lynne0652 Again you would be wrong, I seek out the news, I do not watch any news or read any newspapers, I don't need anyone to tell me what is going on, it is all out there for everyone to see, if they will just open their eyes. But I don't even know why I waste my time answering you, you are all about quips, and attacking people, seems like you are a very unhappy man. I have been a Democrat since John Kennedy, I was too young to vote for him, but even at 16 I knew he was different, but to compare JFK to what passes for a Democrat now, I would have to drink the koolaid, and I am not willing to do that.. You want to believe that the Democrats are looking out for you, that is your business. I am not looking for any politician to look out for me, I will take care of myself and my family. You think Obama has your back, enjoy your koolaid.

lynne0652
lynne0652

@RobDrury

"Mainstream Christianity is full of hypocrisy and perversion; that’s because if this weren’t true, it wouldn’t be “mainstream.” You must remember that this is satan’s world."


So, what is your point there?  That Satan is responsible for the mainstream Christian hypocrisy and confusion which relentlessly beats down the gays?  


I won't necessarily argue with that, although you give him more credit than he is due.  Man has enough pride and ignorance on his own without Satan's help, and obviously, it does not disappear so easily after salvation.

Sleepless in FL
Sleepless in FL

@KentStraith @Sleepless in FL @RobDrury @SueRoediger @lynne0652  I find it highly unlikely that we can have a conversation if you insist in using sweeping generalizations and hyperbole. I am 66 years old, I have voted in every election as a Democrat, until Mr Obama, who I felt did not have the experience we needed at such a time in history. I think I have been proved right, repeatedly. Now I have no way of knowing what you consider a Democrat, but I think my voting record alone should prove that was what I was. I am no longer a party line follower because what I see now is a Democratic party I know longer know or understand. The idea that Hillary Clinton could even be considered as presidential material just shows how low our expectations have become.The 2012 Benghazi attack, and the things Mrs. Clinton said would be reason enough for a sane person not to vote for her for dog catcher, but President, it boggles my mind.



I certainly do take issue with your statement" Only in America is there this kind of rampant, irrational paranoia" It is certainly NOT only in America where citizens don't trust their governments, I would be hard pressed to come up with a handful that don't. As for paranoia, if you are reading, watching and listening to what is being said by our government on a daily basis there is much reason to be paranoid. In 65 years of my life I never owned a gun, but I bought one last year, and I have always been against having a firearm in the house, but for the first time in my life I see things happening that lead an even halfway intelligent person to know major change is coming to America, and it is coming fast, and it will not be good.


Oh, and as far as the czar remark I made, just for an example, Republican George Bush had czars, all but 2 were vetted by the senate, 8 of Obama's are not vetted

KentStraith
KentStraith

@Sleepless in FL@KentStraith@RobDrury@SueRoediger@lynne0652Personally I find it highly unlikely you've ever been anything approaching what I would call a Democrat, but anything is possible. The "thugs" you refer to are policy department heads, and have existed in this country since the 1930s. Only in America is there this kind of rampant, irrational paranoia.

Sleepless in FL
Sleepless in FL

@KentStraith @RobDrury @SueRoediger @lynne0652  I am not a zealot, I am even a Democrat, although I didn't vote for Mr. Obama either time. It had nothing to do with his race, it had to do with his inexperience. But after paying attention to what our president has said, and done I wouldn't believe anything he said. Now it is true that being an intelligent person I take anything a politician says with more than just a grain of salt, but when the President hires thugs , or czars or whatever you call them to stick their noses in my business totally bypassing the congress and senate, that may not be the personification of evil, but it is a total disregard for what is right. So while I disagree with quite a bit of what Rob has said, it really is just semantics. Oh, BTW, after being a Democrat for all of my voting life, President Obama, and the specter of having Hillary Clinton run for president, means I am changing parties.

KentStraith
KentStraith

@RobDrury@SueRoediger@lynne0652 Unless you're doing this to entertain yourselves at this point, there's no point in going forward with Rob. Anyone who uses "personification of evil" about an elected American President is obviously some kind of zealot, and you could show him forty two photos of Obama helping old ladies across the street and personally feeding orphans, and I promise you, it would not make a difference.

SueRoediger
SueRoediger

@RobDrury@SueRoediger@lynne0652 as to the normalcy of homosexuality ...........as with most thing human there is a "range of normal"  and from what I can tell there is truth in my statement that this is normal for me.  I seems disgusting to you because that is not how you are wired. Being with a man is disgusting to me......feels very wrong, I imagine it is the way you would feel if a guy wanted to kiss you

RobDrury
RobDrury

@SueRoediger @RobDrury @lynne0652 Well, you apparently fail to recognize Obama as the true personification of evil that he is, and you consider homosexuality as normal.  So much for credibility.  No need for shame; it's not my fault the truth hurts.

jnk2
jnk2

@lynne0652@RobDruryYou are correct....you don't have to change to come to Christ, BUT in order to be saved requires 1st repentance of sins.  And TRUE repentance means to turn AWAY from those sins.  Jesus told the woman caught in the act of adultery, "Go, and sin NO MORE."  If change wasn't required, he would have said simply, "Go."

RobDrury
RobDrury

@lynne0652 @RobDrury  

Lynne, you make some great points. Mainstream Christianity is full of hypocrisy and perversion; that’s because if this weren’t true, it wouldn’t be “mainstream.” You must remember that this is satan’s world. He has been given temporary rule over it by God. What he cannot control directly, he will pervert and confuse. This would explain such things as world leaders who are not only corrupt and self-serving, but remain popular despite the transparency of their corruption. Hitler wasn’t merely tolerated; he was loved by the masses well into his atrocities. Barack Obama has been elected president – twice. Enough said. Slavery was not only legal in the freest nation in the world; it was popularly condoned and often justified by twisting God’s Word.  Most working adults today were alive at a time when the medical and scientific community still adamantly categorized homosexuality as a psychological disorder. What’s changed? Absolutely nothing, except that the abnormalities that were once used to identify it as a disorder are now being cited as evidence that it is a natural state, and therefore, “normal.”  It is, perhaps, as “normal” as cancer or a physical handicap; it is at best a disease.

God’s got this one? Just like He’s got disease, crime, corruption, and natural disasters? He absolutely does not need our help, but He most certainly demands it. There is not one problem in this world that He couldn’t eradicate instantly. Again, He put satan in charge, and He has a reason for it. We are to face trials, tribulations, and tests for one reason only; because eventually we will need to rely totally upon Him. In the meantime, we are charged with caring for our brothers. This includes treating them with compassion, feeding them when they’re hungry, teaching them the truth, and admonishing them when they stray from it.

SueRoediger
SueRoediger

@jnk2@RobynnMussell What about all the other "abominations in Leviticus?

Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. 

working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death.

hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. 

Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we stone them? - Lev. 24:10-16.

and the ones about shellfish and pork and other foods that are abominations?

jnk2
jnk2

RobDrury @RobynnMussellActually when discussing what is or isn't sin, people usually recommend speaking from God's Word and quoting what He DID say about it, rather than just spouting our own opinions.  My opinion and your opinion isn't really worth too much.  This may be the first time I've seen someone actually say "Please speak from your own mouth and NOT God's."  That's very interesting....

Rob Drury was actually saying what God said....not his own opinion about it.  God said specifically "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." (Leviticus 18:22)

By definition, "abomination" means:


a•bom•i•na•tion (əˌbɒm əˈneɪ ʃən)

n.

1. something greatly disliked or abhorred. 2. intense aversion or loathing; detestation. 3. a vile or shameful action, condition, or habit.

_JoshuaAbbott
_JoshuaAbbott

He didn't claim to be in God's mind. He said what is said in the Bible. He spoke what God has told us trough His word. He claimed what he said as the word of God because he drew his statement directly from the word of God. You have spoken through your preference. He has biblical support in his.

And God does does find it revolting, he tells us that it's an abomination! (<- that's in the Bible, so it's true).

RobDrury
RobDrury

@RobynnMussell I don't claim to have inhabited God's mind or to speak for Him, but in this case I most certainly speak according to direction He has given me quite directly.  It is you who is speaking based on personal perception or preference.

lynne0652
lynne0652

@RichardGelina @lynne0652  


The truth offend me?  Oh, you poor man.  By no means.  You are the only offense here that I can see - you are so full of yourself that no one can really see Christ through your arrogance, name-calling and air of superiority.  


And that really is the point of it all - to show them Christ.  When you fail that, what good have you done for the lost or for His kingdom?  (Don't answer that - it's a rhetorical question.)

RichardGelina
RichardGelina

@lynne0652 @RichardGelina I'm sorry the truth has offended you. I do not relentlessly harass gays or point my condemning fingers at them. You, like the other agenda-driven commenters here have proven by your inaccurate assumptions  that you have no place at the table of thought and conversation. 

Sleepless in FL
Sleepless in FL

@lynne0652 @jnk2  The Bible presents two laws: one changeless and eternal, the other provisional and temporary. One presents the duty of man to God and to his fellow men, the other was given because of man’s disobedience to God’s requirements.

The Moral Law

The moral law of the Ten Commandments is an expression of God’s character; it is the standard of all righteousness, an expression of His will. The Holy Bible was written by men under inspiration of God. "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" (2 Peter 1:21). The moral law of the Ten Commandments was not given by inspiration, but was written by God’s own finger on tables of stone. "And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them" (Exodus 24:12). "And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God" (Exodus 31: 18). See the Moral Law (Exodus 20:3-17) and (Deuteronomy 5:7-22).

The moral law is the embodiment of two great principles: Love toward our Creator and love toward our neighbor. When a lawyer asked Christ "Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets" (Matthew 22:36-40). The transgression of the moral law is called sin. Therefore, "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4).

Of the moral law Jesus says, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:17-19).

jnk2
jnk2

@lynne0652@jnk2 You can understand this when you read the Bible as a "whole" and not by taking single scriptures by themselves to form a belief or doctrine.  The Bible says (Isaiah 28:9-10) "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:"

This is saying to have true understanding of His Word will require study and devotion to His Word.  True understanding is not for the casual or occasional reader of the Bible, but for the student of the Bible.  True knowledge is found "precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little and there a little".  You must use Scripture to interpret Scripture.  The rest of the Bible will explain to you what a single verse means.  It will not contradict the rest of the Bible....they will agree.  By the way, most Bible scholars agree to this "rule" for the formation of a doctrine.  It is not formed by a single scripture.

When God said, in multiple places, "I change not" (or the equivalent), then you can form a doctrine of an unchanging God, a God who is forever the same.  This, as I mentioned in the first post, is referring to God's nature.  He can change how He relates to man, but that is not the same as God changing His nature or His characteristics.  As stated in the first post, many things were established by God prior to any "formal" law, such as the Mosaic law, to which Jesus was referring (the law and the prophets).  Jesus fulfilling these things do NOT however, change the nature of God (remember, He said that He does not change).  So if God stated His position on something and called it an abomination to HIM, it is and will forever be an abomination to Him.  In Genesis, God established what a marriage is and what He wants a relationship to be....one man and one woman.  Jesus spoke of this when pressed by the Pharisees about divorce.  He said "in the beginning" (Matt. 19 & Mark 10) God made them man and woman, leave their parents and become "one flesh".  This is God's plan for marriage - it was in the beginning, it was in Jesus' day as he said, and it is today.  This was not part of the Law of Moses.  And before anyone mentions it, yes, he was speaking of divorce here, which is still wrong today.  Just because a lot of Christians today divorce, doesn't mean that it is OK.


To answer your original question, No...the Bible doesn't say which laws are "moral laws" in those exact words, but if you read the WHOLE Bible in context (many today read out of context), the Bible definitely teaches these things.


Jesus spoke about parables (read Mark 4) to his disciples and explained that he did not INTEND for people to understand parables.  “And the disciples came, and said unto Him, Why do you speak unto them in parables?  He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto YOU to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but unto them it is NOT given.”  (Matt 13:10-11) Jesus actually HID the meaning of his teachings from the masses.  In Luke, "“Let these sayings sink down into your ears. . . But they understood NOT this saying, and it was HID from them, and they perceived it NOT; and they feared to ask Him of that saying.”  (Luke 9:44,45)   Also, “Then He took unto Him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold we go up to Jerusalem, and ALL THINGS that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. . . and they understood NONE of these things: and this saying was HID from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.” (Luke 18:31-34)

Just before Jesus was crucified, the Bible says "Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures." (Luke 24:45)


God's intention is that we passionately study His word to gain knowledge that is hidden from us.  This will not be given to the casual reader.  He will reveal His word to us.


I have seen over and over the argument made that because Christians make a big deal about homosexuality and not other issues, that somehow this magically makes homosexuality OK.  ALL sins are equally wrong and will send an unrepentant person to Hell, but making one a big deal and not another doesn't in anyway make the "big deal" less of a sin.  That's not even remotely logical.  I agree, that Christians often "categorize" sins, which they shouldn't do, but how does this make homosexuality, not a sin just because someone ignores divorce, or lying or any other sin?  We can't "explain away" the biblical fact that homosexuality is a sin and God called it an abomination to HIM.  If God "changes not" then how could He possibly be OK with it today?  Otherwise, He has changed and violated His own Word.

SueRoediger
SueRoediger

@Sleepless in FL@SueRoediger@lynne0652 I think I understand what you are trying to say and I appreciate your respectful tone.  However being gay is not like overeating.  It is more like being right or left handed.  Just as attraction to opposite sex people is natural and normal for you.....for a gay person their same sex attraction is right for them.  When a gay person considers relations with an opposite sex person the reaction is like what you likely feel when thinking of being in a same sex relationship. 

I was raised with a strong sense of right and wrong and I know when I am doing wrong ............

RobDrury
RobDrury

Who cares what the Catholic church says? The Vatican has historically proven itself to this day to be nothing but a self-serving heresy; and given your description of your current congregation, it appears that you've found more of the same, just a different agenda.

SueRoediger
SueRoediger

@jnk2@SueRoediger@Sleepless in FL@lynne0652 While there is no particular biblical proscription regarding left handedness - in biblical times it was commonly held that there was something wrong with people who  used their left hand dominantly. It was considered abnormal, and it is not actually "normal"  since only about 10-12 percent of people are left handed. It is a recessive trait that tends to run in families  As late as the 1950's people tried to change kid's handedness, aggressively. Kids were hit or had their hands tied to their sides.  Some religious leaders in earlier times considered it evil, or from the devil. 

My comparison was that as we have learned that left handedness is a normal difference that can be accepted - we can also acknowledge sexual orientation to be different in certain individuals and still  be not evil or from the devil.  Homosexuality also tends to run in families, and is found in just under 10 percent of people.  If you want to live by your interpretation of an ancient text - fine - but in these times we have gained knowledge about many practices . and many of us follow science.

Religious denominations do not get to make civil law.

jnk2
jnk2

@lynne0652@SueRoediger@jnk2The key in the words of Jesus here is "I did not come to destroy".  Most people quote that He fulfilled the Law, but He made a point to also say that He did not come to destroy the Law.  Most people use the "fulfillment"part and define that as destroying the Law, which Jesus specifically said He did NOT do.  So, there is a difference made.

jnk2
jnk2

@SueRoediger@Sleepless in FL@lynne0652You have justified here that homosexuality is not sinful because it is not a sin to be left-handed.  How did you reach this conclusion?  Is there a biblical comparison made between the two?  These 2 things are independent of each other.  I would certainly agree that the Bible does NOT condemn anyone for being left-handed, but being left-handed cannot define, validate, justify, etc, etc, being or not being homosexual.  I fail to see the relationship here.  If you decide to answer, I am looking for biblical support on this.  Thanks.

SueRoediger
SueRoediger

@RobDrury@Sleepless in FL@SueRoediger@lynne0652 until about 30 years or so ago, catholic schools would not allow children to write left-handed. Centuries ago, the Catholic Church declared left-handed people to be servants of the Devil. For generations, left-handers who attended Catholic schools were forced to become right-handed. They justified this belief on the basis of several bible quotations that stigmatized left-handedness.
There are also quite a few superstitions about being left-handed. It wasn't until we realized, in the last half-century or so, that there are legitimate biological reasons for left-handedness, that people were no longer forced to use their right hand

There is evidence that sexual orientation is like handedness, You are free to choose to live your life based on the notions of an ancient text.  I choose to look for fact and evidence. In addition I do have a conscience and I knew what sin is.............. I am not "intrinsically disordered" as the catholic church outs it.  Believe what you wish......just do not judge me or preach to me.

RobDrury
RobDrury

@Sleepless in FL @RobDrury @SueRoediger @lynne0652  No; I'm relating this to Sue's insistence that God creates homosexuals. Those who hold this view commonly cite genetic differences between homosexuals and heterosexuals. "  The XYY genome has been well documented and linked to a tendency toward psychopathic behavior and heinous violence.  Most of the noted serial killers in modern history have been found with this abnormality.


God has never made a homosexual; He created mankind, who chose to rebel and set a legacy of sin.  Homosexuality is a direct result of that legacy.

KentStraith
KentStraith

@Sleepless in FL@KentStraith@RobDrury@SueRoediger@lynne0652Listen closely. There are **direct contradictions** in Scripture. There are multiple instances of Scripture saying two things, one of which, by the definition of reality, cannot be true. The list I presented contains only some of these. God does not make errors, and is certainly capable of getting his Word to us intact. The Bible has a great many errors (at least in the English language). What conclusion does this lead to? Joseph cannot be the son of two men. A king cannot begin to rule at age 8...AND at age 18.

Sleepless in FL
Sleepless in FL

@KentStraith @Sleepless in FL @RobDrury @SueRoediger @lynne0652   Wow, you just really must want to argue, and I do not. There were no traps in what I said. I also am not desperate, and I guess we will have to wait til we are in Heaven to see who is right. But my God doesn't make mistakes, so if he doesn't make mistakes, it would follow that He could get His word to us without mistakes. That doesn't seem to me to be "desperate" in any way.


Also "All due respect, but your reply is clearly insane" doesn't seem to be anything except possibly an oxymoron, unless indeed you do respect insane replies.


Finally, as a Christian of over 50 years, I will not name call or call you or your remarks insane, that my dear is between you and God. God Bless You, you are in my prayers.

Sleepless in FL
Sleepless in FL

@SueRoediger @Sleepless in FL @lynne0652  And I will say again, being a homosexual is not a sin, acting on those feeling is the sin. Just as my wanting to overeat is not the sin, acting on those feelings, that is the sin. Any sin that takes us away from God, that we put before God, that is the sin.

KentStraith
KentStraith

@Sleepless in FL@KentStraith@RobDrury@SueRoediger@lynne0652All due respect, but your reply is clearly insane. No, God did not put "trap" scriptures in among the "real" scriptures as a test of faith and expect us to discover and ignore them. The Bible is not the obstacle course on Double Dare. There are, clearly and unarguably (except by the very desperate) errors in the modern Bible that cannot be explained away. The verses I quoted here are from a Bible that is being handed out (for free) at my church currently. These are not old, since corrected errors.

Sleepless in FL
Sleepless in FL

@KentStraith @RobDrury @SueRoediger

 @lynne0652  i DON'T AGREE WITH YOU , on so many levels. First you are taking verses and compairing them to other verses all out of context. That is what people do when they want to make the Bible say what they want it to say. The Bible is the INERRANT word of God. This doesn't mean there have NEVER been human mistakes. But those mistakes get corrected. The Bible I read has been gone over not only by english scholars, but Jewish scholars as well.


.I believe God is incapable of telling a lie. that he is omnipodent, infallible, omnipresent. If He is all these things doesn't it follow that He could get His book to us in just the form He meant for it to be? I believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God.



T1. No! It was how God told Bible believers He counted Ahaziah among the wicked kings of Israel, and not among the kings of Judah, so they would know why Jehu killed him when cutting off the house of Ahab (II Chron 22:7).

2. No! It was how God told Bible believers He counted Ahaziah among the wicked kings of Israel, and not among the kings of Judah, so they would know why He removed Ahaziah, his son, and his grandson from the lineage of Jesus Christ (Matt 1:8). 

3. No! It was to test whether men believe God and his word or the "research" of textual critics, commentators, and seminary professors. As Jesus gloriously thanked His Father, God has hid such things from the wise and prudent and revealed them unto babes (Matt 11:25-26). 

4. No! It was how God showed any Bible with "22" in II Chronicles 22:2 is not His word. He exposed the liars that worship the "originals" but change them whenever they wish! And He exposed any preacher or commentator by their submission or rebellion to II Timothy 2:15.This is to refute just one of your choices of a mistake in the scriptures....

KentStraith
KentStraith

@RobDrury@SueRoediger@Sleepless in FL@lynne0652Rob: We have to allow for the possibility of errors, omissions, and mistranslation of the Bible. Granting the premise that the 'original' texts were the directly inspired Word of God, the current Bible makes the following claims:


Matt.19:26 - "...with God, all things are possible."

Judges 1:19 - “And the LORD was with Judah; and he drove out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.”

Mark 15:25 - “And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.”

John 19:14-16 - “…about the sixth hour…they cried out…crucify him….Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified.”


2 Kings 24:8 - “Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months.”

2 Chron. 36:9 - “Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem…”


2 Kings 8:26 - "“Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign…”

2 Chron. 22:2 - “Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign…”

2 Sam. 6:23 - “Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death”

2 Samuel 21:8 - “But the king took…the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul”

1 Kings 4:26 - “And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots…”

2 Chron. 9:25 - “And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots…”

Matt 1:16 - “And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus…”

Luke 3:23 - “And Jesus…the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli”

Gen 22:1 - “And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham…”

James 1:13 - “..for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.”

Gen 32:30 - “…for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.”

John 1:18 - “No man hath seen God at any time…”

Now, all that to say, let's show a little moderation in what the Bible is and what the Bible is not. Namely, inerrant. If each and every one of these is written off as "context" or "multiple people with the same name", we're on very dangerous ground, and the Bible can say, literally, anything you want it to say.

RobDrury
RobDrury

@SueRoediger @Sleepless in FL @lynne0652 The XYY genome is also a "natural thing."  I guess serial killers were just made that way, so what they do is perfectly acceptable to God.


BTW, the Bible is the absolute Word of God.  It reflects no ignorance.

SueRoediger
SueRoediger

@Sleepless in FL@SueRoediger@lynne0652 just as it is not sinful to be left handed, because that is natural and normal for a left handed person............it is not a sin to be homosexual.  The high ideals of the bible (like loving God and our neighbor) may be inspired - but certain details are limited by the ignorance of the times. The bible talks of the sky as firmament (like a dome) over the earth, and says the sun moves across the sky, it says the eating of certain foods is an abomination.  We have learned a lot since then.  The treatment of left handed people has changed from trying to change their evil and defiant aberrant ways to acceptance. The same is true of people who God has made as homosexual.

jnk2
jnk2

@lynne0652@SueRoedigerActually Jesus said a LOT about us and our behavior.  He called them sins.  It was important to Him that we do NOT sin.  So, it is actually important that we discuss sin and not ignore it.

jnk2
jnk2

@SueRoediger@lynne0652@jnk2 I have given no "hysterical" emphasis as you said on homosexuality being an abomination.  The emphasis was made as soon as this article was posted.  If you like I can "emphasize" many other sins, so as not to be "hysterical", but this is the topic of discussion on this page.  I think your description of me as "hysterical" is hysterical.

jnk2
jnk2

@lynne0652@SueRoediger@jnk2So this verse in Psalms is supposed to cancel out other places where God Himself told us things that He considers an abomination?  How do you arrive at that conclusion?

jnk2
jnk2

@lynne0652@SueRoediger@jnk2I believe I made the distinction between what He said was an abomination to Him and what was an abomination to YOU (speaking of Israel).  I never implied that none of these things were sinful.  They were in fact ALL sins if you transgressed those things.

My point was that Jesus fulfilled the "law and prophets", but these things that are an abomination to HIM (to God) do not change, they are, in fact, still an abomination to God today, because He changes not.  He instituted marriage in Genesis between one man and one woman and this transcends the Law of Moses and the words of the prophets.  Jesus did not fulfill any law as it pertains to marriage or homosexuality.

Sleepless in FL
Sleepless in FL

@SueRoediger @lynne0652 If someone said God doesn't love us all, they don't know what they are talking about. God does love us all, and He wants us to all come to Him and repent our sins. He hates sin, ANY sin, and other than the Unpardonable sin (blaspheming the Holy Spirit) all sin is forgivable. It takes only us being willing to turn away from our sin, to change our way of looking at things, for us to be forgiven.I feel sure you probably don't look at your lifestle as being sin, I had never looked at my overeating as sin, but it is. When we put what we want, ahead of our relationship with God, we are making a god of our sin. There is not one degree of difference in your sin or mine. Both are forgivable, as long as we turn away from that sin, and turn towards God. Some people on this board seem to think homosexuality is somehow worse than other sins, it is NOT, When Jesus was once talking about sin, the one sin He mentioned twice, was being a liar. Is there ANYONE on this board that has NEVER told a lie?


GOD DOES LOVE ALL US SINNERS, HE JUST HATES SIN< NOT SINNERS!!!!!

SueRoediger
SueRoediger

@lynne0652@SueRoediger My journey has been strange. I told of it on another entry. I was raised Catholic and there is definitely no place for me there, unless I am willing to call myself "intrinsically disordered: and to live in celibacy or to act straight and marry - which would be torture and disgusting to me. A neighbor was sharing about the church she had found, I said - "there is no church for me as I am a lesbian"  She said oh you have to try this place. The first sermon I heard there was about how God is "a stubborn kind of God, who - though you are lost - will seek you out and bring you back home" -  It was as if her was talking about me. This church interprets things in a way make a place for me and those like me.   Others on this page have said that God does not love us all . God hates sinners and only loves those who are "saved" ............but each denomination thinks theirs is the :one true faith"...... your voice is SO refreshing

lynne0652
lynne0652

@SueRoediger

Sue - I wish I could answer that for you, definitively.  And to your satisfaction...and mine!  It's pretty hairy and complex I guess..I hate that as much as the next person because it really takes the focus off the most important person - Jesus - and puts it on us and our behavior.

Sue, do you have any ideas about why Christians seem to focus there?  I think those Proverbs listings are far more applicable to us all and more worthy of God's disdain.  (Even though He holds no more disdain for those He inhabits.  Praise God!)

I'm beginning to think it might be two things:  #1 Christians are not able nor willing to 'celebrate enthusiastically' something we know goes against foundational precepts given by God in the bible, and #2 these sexual matters, these deviations if you will, well, they hit a little too close to home and that could be why we dwell there.

Among the many ways God is ministering in, by and through the LGBTQ community, He is also lending them to us as a sort of mirror - we're getting the message, I think.  Slow but sure.

I hope I haven't offended you by saying any of the above.  You have courage to stick it out in this particular 'den of lions' where you have not received the best treatment from some folks. 

You go girl!  And keep pressing on in your journey with God.  It's worth every smile, tear, giggle and frown!

lynne0652
lynne0652

@SueRoediger @jnk2  

Sue - you are right on track here.  If you read the beginning of the chapters in Leviticus, you sometimes see that God is telling Moses to 'tell Aaron and His sons' (the priests), but for the most part all of Leviticus is given to all of the people of Israel.  


All of the transgressions listed are to be considered sinful, whether they are described as 'abominations" or not.  It's common in Christendom to make references to various divisions of law with respect to whether or not we are to keep them, or the Jews, or whether Jesus fulfilled them all, or that some are 'moral' laws.  Jesus fulfilled them ALL. 


Matthew 5:17,18

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.  For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 


See Proverbs 6:16-19 to see what the Lords deems abominable:

These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

An heart that devises wicked imaginations, feet that are swift in running to mischief,

A false witness that speaks lies, and he that sows discord among brethren.

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