BREAKING NEWS: The Christian Dynasty in America is angry today! In fact, they are really really angry!
No, they’re not angry about the number of homeless people roaming our city streets. And no, they’re not angry about the number of children dying everyday from malnutrition. And no, their anger isn’t about President Obama (though give them some time, they’ll connect the dots soon enough).
So why are so many members of America’s Church up in arms today, filling up our Facebook and Twitter feeds with complaints, threats, and demands?
Because one of their beloved, Duck Dynasty‘s Phil Robertson, is being persecuted y’all. Yes, PERSECUTED! No, he’s not being held hostage by Bible-haters somewhere in Southeast Asia. It’s worse than that. The eldest member of America’s favorite reality TV family has been suspended indefinitely by A&E! I know, right? This is some serious prayer chain fodder for sure.
Now, why did A&E suspend Robertson? Well, because of comments the star made during an interview with GQ writer, Drew Magary. What did he say? Here are a few quotes…
On the topic of homosexuality: “Start with homosexual behavior and just morph out from there. Bestiality, sleeping around with this woman and that woman and that woman and those men. Don’t be deceived. Neither the adulterers, the idolaters, the male prostitutes, the homosexual offenders, the greedy, the drunkards, the slanderers, the swindlers—they won’t inherit the kingdom of God. Don’t deceive yourself. It’s not right.”
On why he believes vaginas are better than anuses: “It seems like, to me, a vagina—as a man—would be more desirable than a man’s anus. That’s just me. I’m just thinking: There’s more there! She’s got more to offer. I mean, come on, dudes! You know what I’m saying? But hey, sin: It’s not logical, my man. It’s just not logical.”
On growing up with African Americans “pre-entitlement”: “I never, with my eyes, saw the mistreatment of any black person. Not once. Where we lived was all farmers. The blacks worked for the farmers. I hoed cotton with them. I’m with the blacks, because we’re white trash. We’re going across the field…. They’re singing and happy. I never heard one of them, one black person, say, ‘I tell you what: These doggone white people’—not a word!… Pre-entitlement, pre-welfare, you say: Were they happy? They were godly; they were happy; no one was singing the blues.”
A few hours after GQ posted that interview online, A&E suspended Phil. And that’s when a plethora of Christians began erupting into boisterous protest. My Facebook feed turned into a Duck Dynasty lament, a chaotic display of fury. Some Christians offered prayers. Some bemoaned that, in America, “freedom of speech” was officially dead. Some Christians offered phone numbers, links, and addresses, encouraging their friends to voice their disgust to A&E. Some Christians updated their statuses with opinions that bordered on insane.
Can we–members of the American Church–all just calm down for a moment and look at ourselves? Because we look ridiculous. We look foolish. And worst of all, some of us sound downright ignorant. Because how we respond to events like this matters—ducking matters!
First of all, stop making this about freedom of speech. This isn’t a freedom of speech issue. Trust me, read Phil’s interview. The Dynasty patriarch possessed all the freedom in the world to say exactly what he wanted to say. But sometimes, depending on who’s offering the paycheck, there are consequences to what we say. That’s been true since America’s beginning, while you have the freedom to say nearly anything you want to say in America. Sometimes saying whatever you feel like saying comes with a backlash. This isn’t about Phil’s freedom of speech; it’s about what—and more specifically—how Phil expressed his opinions that caused A&E to push the pause button. So please, if you’re going to complain, complain with wisdom. Have your facts straight. Understand the real issue here. Don’t stoop to Sarah Palin’s level.
Secondly, remember this is about a reality TV show, a meaningless TV show about a family of outspoken rich hunters. It’s just entertainment, people! Some Christians seem to believe this is a really important thing to be angry about. But it’s not. Did you know that 500 people were killed in Sudan yesterday? Did you voice your grievance about that? Because that’s actually important. Whether or not Phil ever appears on Duck Dynasty is completely meaningless in comparison. So let’s get our priorities in order here. There are much more important events happening in the world.
Thirdly, we the Church need to remember that, regardless if you agree 100 percent with every single comment Phil said in the interview, some people were deeply offended by his comments regarding homosexuality and race. Your support of Phil and Phil’s messages, whether you mean it this way or not, is hurtful toward other people. And that should matter to us. Why? Because we are the ones who proclaim the grace and mercy and love of Christ. And Christ cares about those who are offended by Phil’s speech. Some people call Phil’s words homophobic. Others seem to believe his comments about the African American community are racist. It doesn’t matter if you don’t agree. It doesn’t matter that Phil didn’t mean it that way. That’s what happens when we speak our minds in the media. We end up saying things that hurt or offend other people. And we, those who declare the way of Jesus, need to care about that. So please, before you support one rich celebrity hunter with your opinion, remember that your affections for DD might be deeply offending a large group of people. And if that doesn’t matter to you, that’s your problem, not theirs. Because as followers of Jesus, that should matter.
Fourthly, as you’re raging against A&E for putting Phil on suspension, it might behoove you to consider whether or not your own church would welcome Phil in all of his ‘Duck’ glory in their congregation or on their stage without some major edits to his lifestyle, speech, or overall image. Maybe you go to one of the few churches that accepts people–all people–just as they are. And perhaps your church would welcome Phil as he is to your congregation. But how long would it last? How many times would he get away with saying the words “vagina” or “anus” in public without getting a talking to from the pastor? How many churches would allow somebody to stand up in their congregations and say what Phil said regarding black Americans? Maybe some. But in many churches, those words would raise much concern. So really, do any of us have any room to judge A&E’s decision when most of us go to churches that tend to try and micromanage people like Phil? Would Phil be able to teach Sunday School at your church? Would you allow him to be a deacon? And remember, it wasn’t too long ago that a church/ministry canceled an appearance by the Duck Dynasty crew because they have their own brand of wine. So before you lash out at A&E for “being closed minded liberal Hollywood elite,” remember that America’s “rightwing conservative elitist” Church has a lengthy record for putting people on “hiatus” for a myriad of reasons. Let’s not be hypocrites on this.
And lastly, remember that it is we who, every single Sunday, proclaim the values of kindness, love, humility, hope, grace, and mercy. While these virtues are not exclusively “Christian values,” as America’s biggest religion, most Americans, regardless of their spiritual creeds, are well aware that it is Christianity that preaches these values of Christ as the best standards for living. A&E does not preach these values. Some of their directors might love Jesus, but the Beatitudes are not their brand. GLAAD does not promote on a weekly basis the values of Christ. They might LOVE Jesus, but it’s not something they proclaim on a regular basis as their mantra. But we do. Christians do promote the Beatitudes as their creed. So while it’s fine and necessary for us to look in the mirror and judge how we are adhering to Jesus’s teachings against hate, pride, calamity, and the like, we do not have the right to cast judgment on other groups of people or individuals who do not share our beliefs. Hatred or unkindness from other people or groups is no excuse for us to return hate with hate. Regardless what A&E ultimately decides, we are the ones who should respond with humility, grace, and mercy. Because that’s our creed. That’s what we preach every damn Sunday. That’s the message that we believe speaks louder than protest, anger, and hate. So remember that as your tweeting your frustrations about Phil and Phil’s messaging.
And in the end, Church, Phil will survive this. He might not be on TV. But he’ll survive. But to us, the Church–those of us who lift up the values of Christ–how we respond to these kinds of situations, whether they are meaningless or of great importance, will be remembered long after the controversy is over. Why? Because when we act like fools, we are adding our foolishness to a legacy of foolishness that America’s Church has become well-known for.
So let’s be wise.
Let’s be careful.
Let’s get our priorities in order.
And for God’s sake, let’s all calm the duck down.
UPDATE: Read a follow-up post here.
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Thank you for this.
Thank you. Just. Thank you.
And The title? Stellar.
Good stuff, this “persecution” stuff irritates me.
Christianity is about injustice, however your picture of people of Sudan killed is not all the injustice. The injustice is sin against God, and are we not to proclaim such? Jesus didn’t seem to have an issue calling out sin. You mentioned the grace and mercy of our God, however it seems that the apostle Paul preceded it by telling people about their sin, why do you ask? Paul states “but by the law I had not known sin.” And we know that the “law of the Lord is perfect to save the soul” So in order for people to properly come to the saving cross of Christ they must know what standard has damned them. Sinners must know what their sin is before coming to the cross. If we are to proclaim “repentance (turning from your ways to Gods ways, turning from your sin) for the remission of sins” and “without repentance (turning from your ways to Gods ways, turning from your sin) there is no forgiveness” then the message is incomplete. Why do people need to repent? Why do people need forgiveness? Because of their sins. How will people know they are sinners? By opening up Gods law. God is not solely a God of mercy and love and forgiveness, this god is no god at all. God is Just, Righteous, Wrathful, Angry daily at sin, and at the same time he is Loving, merciful, and forgiving. This is a truer picture of God Almighty. And for those who would disagree about God being angry, just, and wrathful read your old testament and revelation and 1John 2John, Matthew 7, etc.. And since God “Does not change” he is the same “yesterday, today, and forever” and his wrath with be poured out on all those who refuse to put away their wickedness through repentance. I challenge you that this just like a Sudan murder spree is just as important because murder is the same as any other sin in Gods eyes, condemnable, read 1 Cor. 6. And yes I fall into that category like everyone else, the difference is Christ has saved me and granted me eternal life through his shed blood on the cross. I am not better than anyone, however I am better off than many.
The best article I’ve read so far about this incident…. good read.
I’m going to have to disagree with you. I believe this is more of a matter of standing behind people who are being bullied by the media for holding to a biblical belief regarding marriage and sexuality. The last time I checked, we live in a nation open to the free exercise of worship and religion (so says the 1st amendment).
Did he offend people? Sure…so did Jesus. And lets be honest…just about anything offends people these days, and when it comes to Christians…simply stating “I believe in the traditional idea of marriage” is enough to offend people. Remember Chick-Fil-A? But nothing in what he said was wrong.
As for your comments about not getting upset about 500 people who died in the Sudan…it is very sad…but I personally wasn’t even aware of the event. Had I known…I would’ve definitely said something. And I’m sure more would have had they actually known about the story. Let’s be real…who actually pays attention to CNN for news? And No, there is no comparison between what has happened to Phil Robertson and those people.
All of that said…I agree that we as believers need to be cautious of how we respond to situations like this. But I do not believe people should be pistol whipped or accused of being hateful simply because they vocally support someone who is being demonized by the entire lamestream media for voicing something that wasn’t incorrect or even laced with hate. If you read the comments he made (which you reposted) he didn’t call them evil, he merely said it was sin, and that he didn’t understand the attraction. This wasn’t even an issue until people from GLAAD made it an issue. He responded to a question that was asked of him.
I’d just say…show a little support instead of bashing those who are showing support. If you don’t want to show support, that’s fine…but why go off on those who are?
As usual, mpt, you speak with such sanity in the midst of insanity! I have bigger problems in my own life; I don’t need to worry with what Phil Robertson said or how he said it. I have bigger problems in my city; lots of homeless & hungry people-including children of all races & nationalities. I would rather be on God’s Bandwagon, than on a hay ride with a duck call…
“And for God’s sake, let’s all calm the duck down.” <That statement says all I need to know to ignore the writer of this article. Reading his article makes him sound like one of the “agenda” people themselves. RED FLAGS.
Let the haters begin….
Must you always incite the haters?
baylormum”Haters.” A new, Internet-community based word that tried to pigeonhole people who disagree. Hate? Yes, many things. Blind hatred? Of course not. I’ll say back to you (unfortunately), “Children gonna cry.” Grow up into maturity.
I’ve been trying all day to come up with the words to describe how I feel about what is happening with this situation. This is word for word it. Thank you.
BradBates If I work at McDonalds and I keep telling customers that the burgers suck and could make you sick, does the 1st amendment protect me? It seems to me that Phil was, and remains, quite free to speak his mind. But the promise of free speech is not a promise of consequence-free speech.
jsgjs baylormum I “hate” that my sarcasm doesn’t shine through in this internet community. I love to read other’s perspectives because it just might change mine. I remain open-minded & teachable…
🙂
jvonehr BradBates I wasn’t even going there regarding free speech or consequences of free speech. In fact I said: “I believe this is more of a matter of standing behind people who are being bullied by the media for holding to a biblical belief regarding marriage and sexuality.”
That said, the assumption being made is that he said something wrong or offensive. He did not. He stated a simple fact, and a view held by most Christians. Alec Baldwin actually made fun of gay people, and harassed people using vile language concerning gay people…and yet it took months of pressure to even confront the issue.
Fact is, this isn’t about free speech at all…this is about Christians being demonized for holding biblical beliefs that are in contradiction to what culture says is “ok”. People like Martin Bashir say horrible things about Christians and conservatives…people like Piers Morgan have a talk show where they berate people for holding certain views…and silence. had Phil Robertson not been a Christian…I highly doubt his words would’ve held the same “potency”.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
I see situations like this Duck Dynasty debacle, see people taking action and taking a stand, and it makes me sad. What would our world look like if a fraction of the time and energy these people are spending defending a person from a reality tv show was spent towards good, towards making a difference and helping real people with real needs? Where’s our indignation over real issues, like hunger, homelessness, lack of clean water, children still waiting for forever homes?
jvonehr BradBates That would be different because you are working for the McDonald’s company, and your job is to sell their product. If while you were at your job working, you were slandering their product, no matter how correct your statements are, that would be understandable grounds for dismissal.
Phil wasn’t slandering the company he holds a contract with or anyone else, just answering specific questions he was being asked by stating his biblical beliefs, and in no way was he calling those he addressed as evil, merely sinful, which we ALL ARE.
Hence, this is a 1st amendment issue
BradBates I agree with your comment 100%, very well put!!!
BradBates
You used the phrase “lamestream media”. You’re obviously a fucking reject.
abower4 BradBates Thanks! 🙂
GeorgeDwyer BradBates Real mature George. But thank you for reading my comment 🙂
GeorgeDwyer BradBates He obviously used it to prove a point..that mainstream media is lame..which it is. And I find it funny when people jump in with curses when there really is nothing better they can say. I suggest developing a more “educational” opinion in the future.
abower4GeorgeDwyerBradBates
I’m actually quite educated, I just don’t care about people’s opinion of me on the internet.
GeorgeDwyer abower4 BradBates It’s not really about caring what people think of you, as much as it’s about “common courtesy”.
I’m gonna disagree with your last couple of points. You started out super well and overall I think this is an incredible post; however, it sounded to me like you think Phil should worry more about being politically correct than worry about the Truth of Scripture. I would love to be wrong, but even if that IS how you meant it, I am okay with differing on that because there was a lot of truth surrounding that area of the blogpost. Well said.
jvonehrBradBatesIt’s actually more similar to working at McDonald’s and telling LGB customers and their families and friends that they are the moral equivalent of animal rapists. Or do people not understand that bestiality = rape of animals, because it’s not like the animal has the capacity to consent. Equivocating being LGB with rape (pedophilia, bestiality, the attempted gang rape of the angels in the Sodom story) announces loud and strong to the world that Christians can’t tell the difference between consensual sex and rape, and then we wonder why people react like we’re amoral monsters. We need to stop making these LGB people = rapists arguments and we need to stop screaming support for people who do make them, ’cause, dude, that’s just sick.
abower4jvonehrBradBatesIt is NOT a First Amendment issue. The First Amendment comes in only when there is *government* action. Do I see any government action here? Nope, the only action I see is that of an employer (A&E Television) telling an employee he’s on hiatus. I strongly suspect there’s a clause in Robertson’s contract with A&E TV that allows A&E to put Robertson on hiatus at A&E’s discretion. Or Robertson’s contract may have a non-disparagement clause which allows A&E to take this action if, in A&E’s opinion, Robertson’s actions bring disrepute upon the “Duck Dynasty” brand.
Now, at no point in all of this did I say anything about the government, so the First Amendment, which starts out “Congress shall make no law” (and has been extended to other branches of government and the state by judicial decision over the past two centuries), *does not apply.* I’m vehement about this because I had to learn this distinction when I went to law school nearly three decades ago and it irritates me to see people say, “This is a First Amendment issue,” when, in point of fact, it’s an employer-employee issue. That’s all.
What an incredibly ignorant post!!! I’m pretty sure ever Christian is concerned about the welfare of those hurting, starving, lonely, sad and all that applies to that. What is at stake is the Christians right to say what they believe. The show is about THEIR life style, their beliefs and who they are. What he said was in an INTERVIEW! He didn’t say it on the job, he was asked a question and answered it honestly and openly. All over cable is smut, filth, trash, moral decay and they have ONE show about a God fearing family, although rich, is spreading traditional values and they ARE being persecuted for it! Every Christian SHOULD be angry and every Christian SHOULD be afraid and doing everything they can to fight THIS kind of intolerance!
So……..Title VII of the CIvil RIghts Act of 1964 means nothing to you? Wow.
And on the opposite spectrum! Why don’t we see thing like “Really LGBT?? There’s hungry, starving children all around the world and your upset because you can’t marry your partner and instead of putting all your good energy into making the world a better place, you put all of it into fighting people who don’t share your beliefs?” What a hypocritical post, and a nation full of hypocrites!!
WOW
That’s pretty amazing. Nice way to twist it and demonize freedom of expression.
BTW No animals were hurt during this filming.
It is nice for Christians to be milky kind and ineffective. As soon as they become activists…well lets crucify them. Christians supposed to hide under their beds…
For you to make an assumption that Christians are not concerned about the homeless and the genocide in nations such as Syria and Sudan etc…is well… a little assuming.
Yes I agree the travesty of Syrian USA backed rebels murdering Christians pales this little episode…however A&E made no mention of that. Is it Christians fault that the media would rather debate whether or not Santa is white, and Pill’s right to express an old man’s opinion. Wait…I just saw A&Es viewership take a large leap…maybe they wanted to increase their viewership over this little stunt?
It is a shame that Christians have to “remain calm” when we all sit back and watch them being slaughtered…in Syria, Sudan and other parts of the world. But I guess that was done before…with 6 million Jews…
No One is willing to stand up for the rights of those being murdered.
zee31 He wasn’t fired…
zee31 He wasn’t fired, and he wasn’t suspended for being Christian, either.
Can I ask what you suggest the Christian population should say in response to homosexuality? I agree we don’t need to be offensive, but yet, the things we believe are offensive to quite a few people – so how do you reconcile that? You state: “That’s what happens when we speak our minds in the media. We end up saying things that hurt or offend other people. And we, those who declare the way of Jesus, need to care about that.” So do you mean to say that Christians should never express a controversial or possibly offensive idea to the media and what – just stick with “no comment”? I don’t think there is a solution to this problem – mainstream society has accepted things as not only okay, but declared them by law to be good and legal, so no matter what we ever do our views will continually be criticized. But, I don’t think that pretending that we don’t have those views is something that we can do either. It seems from your post that you mostly disagree with the way he expressed his views and expanded on them, but again I ask – how would you phrase your response?
I would like to offer a different scenario to all of those who are wailing and gnashing their teeth over these hateful racist and homophobic comments ol’ Phil there made. What if, in the interview, Phil had come out and said he was an atheist, and anyone who believed in God or Jesus was a fool? What if he said he had seen the light and was coming out of the closet, a proud gay man? Please, PLEASE tell me how you’d react to that. I’m very interested in seeing how many of you would then say he was an asset to A&E’s programming.
@criticalmyth, yes he was indefinitely suspended for being Christian! As a Christian, he was asked his beliefs and as a Christian he answered it. Therefore, he wasn’t suspended for an opinion on some random topic, he was suspended for stating his beliefs which make up who he is!
mmmirele abower4 jvonehr BradBates If Phil decides to sure A&E, then it might become a First Amendment issue…
robcreece
criticalmyth he wasn’t suspended for being a Christian? Really? Why was he suspended then?
If I hear one more person say he is “persecuted” I will personally go all Iningo Montoya on him. “You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”
elegy36 well, one option is to consider whether your words are profitable at all. AT ALL. That is to say, what do you hope to accomplish by saying whatever you’re saying. Do you think a single soul will say, “Ah, well, if Phil says my life is sinful, I should definitely stop being gay. If only I’d known!”
Proverbs says that even a fool will be considered wise if he keeps his mouth shut. That would have gone a long way her.
Most of these discussions are simply not profitable, and are a diversion from what’s truly important.
In fact, for most of us, living “quiet and holy lives” would go a lot farther than trying to convince everyone else about how they should view sin. I find that the Holy Spirit is better and more gracious about convicting others.
As the Church (proper), we have such logs in on our eyes, that we’re really not in a position to run around pointing at the world about how “they” need to get their act together…
I have to disagree with the bit about offending others with our “opinions.” It should not be our concern if declaring something a sin that God first declares a sin offends other people. It didn’t concern Jesus, and most importantly, there is NO need for Jesus or any meaning behind the gospel if we are not first aware of our sin. Here, Phil called out homosexuality for what it is: a sin. Admittedly, he could have done it more tactfully, but anyone who has watched the show knows that is not how he communicates. All this being said, we must season our words with kindness and love. Not only because that is when our words are most persuasive, but because that is how Jesus did it. But we should never compromise the substance in the gospel for the sake of someone’s feelings.
Wow!!!…last time I checked God’s word it read “come as you are.”…so first yes Phil would be welcomed at my church. Second using the words vaginia and anus is better than using “pussy” and “ass.” 3rd I don’t believe that Jesus would want us to be silent on our beliefs. in fact I know that Jesus told us that if we did not cry out then the rocks would. now I’m not saying that we speak to offend per se but we are too speak against sin. Jesus said to love one another so by that we are to love the sinner but hate the sin. so I’m sure that Phil Robertson does not hate the homosexuals he just hates the sin. the Bible says that the Lord Jesus Christ was put on the earth to die for all mankind and sins of the world. folks in the Old Testament God destroyed a whole city for this very reason. I’m not upset with A&E’s decision. I’m sure that Phil Robertson is upset but trust me the Bible also states that when one door shots another is open.
KatherineWhite elegy36 I have to completely disagree with you here. Speaking the truth is something that is good in and of itself. At times in the Bible, whole crowds turned away from Jesus just because he said he was the only way to the Father. You seem to be saying it is better to not even mention sin, as others have no chance of ever turning to God anyway and it will only offend them. Thankfully Paul did not feel the same way you do. Sure, it led to him being stoned, whipped, and ultimately killed do to the offensiveness of his speech. But had it not been for him being faithful and speaking the truth in difficult situations, you would likely have never even heard of this Jesus fellow.
I don’t want to be maudlin in a long drawn out response to such a brilliant piece.
*fistbump*
This was perfect.
StephSharik mmmirele abower4 jvonehr BradBates I’m in law school right now and am currently taking con law. mmmirele is right. This is NOT a 1st amendment issue because A&E is not a state actor. That said, we might as well get of the legal arguments. This is a discussion about what is ultimately right and wrong, and contrary to popular American belief, the law is not always reflective what is ultimately right or wrong.
GeorgeDwyer abower4 BradBates Then at least care about the point you are trying to make. You destroy the impact of your statement as soon as you use profanity to enforce it.
RandDuren It’s true that Christians suffer much worse elsewhere. But how can you just turn your back on a fellow believer and say he is not persecuted? We can’t even begin to comprehend the effect that having a nation turn its back on you and label you an ignorant bigot can have.
baylormum I hope you are not saying the two are mutually exclusive. It is not wrong to worry about other things besides this. In fact, I would think that is the best thing to do. But supporting a believer (and undoubtably his family, children and all) who is suffering persecution (and it is persecution) at the hands of the entire media is far from wrong.
KateInMTHonestly, I wouldn’t care if he came out or said he was an atheist or whatnot. I am very ready for a “so what” society – a hugely-paid basketball player comes out? So what? Phil Robertson is a hetero conservative Christian? So what? What matters to me is the content of someone’s character and the way in which their actions do or do not live up to their words.
You frame your article in a way that makes Christians look ridiculous for being angry that the only Christian representation coming out of Hollywood has been harshly censored. Just for the record, I believe your viewpoint is the ridiculous one.
ladioffaith It is true that Christians get persecuted far worse in other parts of the world. But there are some things you need to consider: Phil and his family (children and all) have been labeled as ignorant, hateful bigots. They will likely get hate mail and possibly even death threats just like Chick fil-a did. We have no idea what it is like to have the entire force of the almighty US media turned against us. I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss what that family is and will go through as insignificant.
JimGoodbody robcreece Jim, are you saying that we are supposed to somehow proclaim the gospel without mentioning sin? Can you explain to me why I need Jesus without telling me how I am a sinful human being that is doomed without the grace and mercy of God? There is no need for grace if there is no sin. The story of the cross makes no sense without it. Face the truth: the faith you are now claiming is completely opposed to the culture you live in. You will not be able to live a life for Christ and not offend others. I would just ask you this: If you are going to continue claiming the name of Christ, please do not ruin it for unbelievers by changing his message and omitting how we are sinful.
I realize I might be living in a dream world. However I think that there are more reasonable Christians that the mean spirited and highly publicized extreme right. Their wacky antics just make a better story.
I know so many Christians and some think that homosexual relations are sin and some don’t but nearly all agree that it is not our job to decide who will and will not go t heaven. It isn’t even our job to go around and telling people that we think God will send them to heaven.
As for the comments about African Americans; Maybe it’s just one more way I’m privileged but the Christians I know are either not racist or know enough not to make racist statements overtly.
I really do think these extremest “Christians” are a minority who are motivated by power and politics and a mob who follow them.
At least I hope so.
KatherineWhite elegy36 Sorry to say, but your words are not profitable at all, like AT ALL! 🙂 Fact is, Christians are being targeted from every angle because we’ve remained quiet TOO long! Yes, A & E has every right to suspend him, but we have every right to speak out about their actions. This article suggests that Christians have more important things to worry about. Where’s the outrage to what put his suspension into motion in the first place?? The angry, nasty letters that demand A & E to fire him for speaking such horrible truths. This is the exact hypocrisy that exists and the intolerance for one group and one group only, CHRISTIANS. People can speak out about Christians all they want, but don’t you dare udder a word about LGBT. They can walk nearly naked in the streets, flashing incredibly offensive images, they can attack Christians on TV channels, have practical porn (it IS porn in my eyes) and display any rude and offensive gesture they desire and we are asked to “look away” and A & E suspends a man for stating his beliefs in an interview that directly asked his opinion?? NO, I will not be quiet any longer. For the sake of my children and their children, something needs to change and I will whine, cry, be angry as HELL over it, because enough is enough!!!
JohnMeadows1 Lot’s of churches are great at practicing the “come as you are mentality”. Did you need to know that lying, lust, drunkenness, slander or disobeying your parents was a sin in order for you to turn to Jesus? Did you need to be shamed for them in order to turn to Jesus? Hopefully not. You did probably need to know that you weren’t perfect, and that without Jesus you would not get into heaven, and more importantly you needed to know how great God’s love was–that he loved you enough to sacrifice His Son for you. Gay people don’t need to be told how much of a sin their lifestyle is. They need to know that they are sinners, like everyone else, but more importantly they need to know that God loves them, and wants a relationship with them. Phil talks about how all these different sinners won’t inherit the Kingdom of God, but he’s no better, and no less of a sinner than them. He’s leaving out the good news and making it sound like people need to change. We can’t earn heaven, we can only turn to God and let him work on us.
This is the problem I have with Matthews rant. Why can’t we care about both. Are we as Christians only able to care about one thing at a time (and who decides what that one thing is)? Why can’t we reach outside our homes to help the poor and needy AND decide for ourselves what we want to see on television once we’re done?
It seems to me that when faced with opposition for speaking the actual Gospel, Christians nowadays would rather simply “do good” for others while omitting the part about speaking soul-saving truth, which always starts with the fact that we are sinful and that is why we need Jesus. We want to provide water to those in other countries, but seem unwilling to provide the “living water” to those that live next door to us. The church is slowly transforming into nothing more than your typical secular charitable organization. It won’t be long before the only difference between the American church and the UN is that our supply boxes say “1st ____ church” as opposed to “UN.” According to Jesus, non-believers being slaughtered or starving to death in other countries are no better off than non-believers living a life of luxury here in the US. They both end up in the same place, apart from Him. The anomaly that is the American Christian will continue to be pulled between their society in their faith until they have to choose one over the other. We cannot serve two masters, and cognitive dissonance will only protect us from unyielding truth for so long.
KatherineWhite Actually yes, someone telling me that what I was doing was sinful is exactly how I decided to change my lifestyle and become a Christian. If that person had kept their mouth shut I most certainly wouldn’t be where I am today, much less on a Christian blog. How can the Holy Spirit convict someone when they don’t believe in it? Everybody has a log in their eye. Every single person. That’s the whole reason we need Jesus so much, because we can never “fix” ourselves.
kobe14baylormumA multimillionaire is being persecuted? How so? Has he had all of his funds taken away from him and given to his enemies? Has the patent on his Duck Commander been revoked and he is now forced to repay the royalties he has earned on it? Is he being thrown into jail, tortured, and/or burned at the stake?
We Americans throw around the word “persecution” when none exists for us in this country of so many freedoms.
Modern evangelical Christians are the world’s champions at straining out gnats and swallowing camels.
They are also unbelievably thin-skinned and think they are subject to constant persecution. Weirdly enough, they think it’s OTHER people who are always being offended, and this is pure projection.
I mean, really. A stupid TV show. Some stupid jerk on a stupid TV show who said something stupid and his words were not consequence-free. “THIS is our Holy Cause!”
10,000 people will starve to death tonight.
WWJD?
The shallowness is breathtaking.
Cory_Huffman JohnMeadows1 Have you read all of Phil’s interview? He goes on to say that it is not for him to judge and that God loves all people equally. He didn’t leave out the good news. And I must disagree with your point about change. God does call for us to leave our life of sin after turning to him. This is expressed by Jesus to the woman caught in adultery, and Paul also states the same when describing how the members of the church used to be drunkards, thieves, homosexuals, etc. They didn’t earn heaven by changing, but changed out of a desire to live a godly life. Most importantly, you seem to be saying that the knowledge of our sinful nature, or the sins we commit are not vital to understanding the gospel. Tell me, if I have committed no wrong, am unaware what is wrong or right, or don’t even believe in such as thing as right or wrong, why do I need the saving grace of Jesus?
ignatzzAmen!
kobe14Cory_HuffmanJohnMeadows1You do realize Phil was paraphrasing the Bible, right? Look it up… 1 Corinthians 6:9. He was not making up his own theology, he also was most defiantly not to be perfect, he speaks freely of his own sin. Look this up as well… http://www.iamsecond.com/seconds/the-robertsons/
I walked away from organized religion, specifically Christianity, because of people like you. You don’t understand the teachings of Jesus and you use your faith as a weapon. You judge others and see no problem with condemning them for THEIR sins, while lessening the value (if not ignoring completely) your own. You only see the fault in others and not in yourself. The greatest thing anyone can do to prove the legitimacy of their faith is to walk the walk – talk is cheap. As for this Duck Dynasty guy – I’m fairly certain I would also be in some hot water with my employer if I insulted some of our clientele in a national publication too. If you’re going to speak your mind on a large stage you need to be prepared for the reaction of your audience.
ignatzz What is better in the eyes of God? To save 10,000 people from starving death and never mention anything about Jesus to them, or to tell the Gospel (which starts with explaining sin and our need for God) just once and never save anyone from starvation?
SydalishThankfully not all of us Christians are like that. Check out the Christian Left on FB. They helped give me back my faith in Christianity.
“So let’s be wise.
Let’s be careful.
Let’s get our priorities in order.”
Great advice. I just don’t think that Jesus would find your play on words or even cussing at the end of this ran, amusing. But hey, that’s just my opinion. Everyone is entitled to their opinion though and what’s an important thing to stand up for to some, may not be the same for others, but that doesn’t make it minuscule.
kobe14ignatzzActually, the Gospel starts off with proclaiming the Kingdom of God and invoking the greatest commandment: which is to love God and others. However, you cannot simply “proclaim the Gospel” and do nothing about the 10,00 people starving. Then you would have missed the Gospel’s point.
TimothyMcPherson I realize not all Christians are that way (thankfully) 🙂 but the vast majority well… they definitely leave a bad taste in my mouth. The victim mentality and hypocrisy is astounding…
SydalishTimothyMcPhersonI’ll agree with you there.
it won’t let me edit this yet, but that should say “end of this rant”
TimothyMcPherson kobe14 baylormum We are talking about the degree of persecution. Obviously getting thrown in jail/burned at the stake is horrible and does not compare to the present situation. But do you think money shield someone from ridicule? Surely you don’t believe that money is the real issue here. I hope you are never exposed to the full force of a scathing attack by the American media. I think you don’t grasp the full implications of it. This is something that the entire family will be subject to, children and all. Do you remember when chick fila received hate mail and death threats for simply supporting traditional marriage? It will likely be the same story here.
TimothyMcPherson kobe14 ignatzz Of course the two are not mutually exclusive, and given the chance you should do both. But let’s say you can only do one or the other do to peculiar hypothetical circumstances. Which one is more beneficial?
kobe14TimothyMcPhersonbaylormumI wouldn’t even put this on any scale of persecution. That’s just comparing apples to oranges.
From Merriam-Webster to persecute means “to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict.” This is not happening here. He just got indefinitely suspended.
kobe14TimothyMcPhersonignatzzTo quote Francis of Assisi, “Preach at all times. When necessary, use words.”
TimothyMcPherson kobe14 ignatzz I agree with that statement, but again: Is it better to extend the lives of 10,000 people before they are sent to hell, or tell one person about Jesus?
kobe14 TimothyMcPherson ignatzz Feeding 10,000 starving people IS proclaiming the Gospel.
TimothyMcPherson kobe14 baylormum Again, I think that being ridiculed by a national media would “injure” you.
ExpectMoore kobe14 TimothyMcPherson ignatzz You’re statement sums up what I believe is wrong with the American church. The UN is doing good, but it not proclaiming the gospel. What sets you apart from a blue-beret?
kobe14 TimothyMcPherson Perhaps he should have thought about that before he deeply insulted a large portion of his employers customers?
I believe Christ said to be angry and sin not. I feel that many people are angry here because Phil was asked a question that they already knew the answer too, and now they are using that answer to get him off the airwaves- all to accomplish an agenda of getting Christ out of our nation. Why is it ok to let Miley parade around making weird gestures?- should we say something about that or just roll over, like the writer is suggesting that we do? I believe we need to stand up and support Christian beliefs, or we will loose them.
kobe14 ignatzz To a starving man, “Good news” is food.
” What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
Sydalishkobe14TimothyMcPhersonI agree. His words injured 2 minority populations in this nation.
Sydalish kobe14 TimothyMcPherson I’m sure he did. As Christians, we are called to do things that we know will bring persecution.
kobe14ExpectMooreTimothyMcPhersonignatzzWell, seeing as how I am a Salvation Army officer, I have the opportunity of daily doing both.
kobe14 TimothyMcPherson ignatzz If you preach to a starving man without helping him, he will hate your message, your Christianity and your God.
Frankly, it sounds like the way of the Pharisees.
ignatzzkobe14TimothyMcPhersonThat is absolutely true and the core message of James.
TimothyMcPherson kobe14 ExpectMoore ignatzz And that is great. I seriously commend you for that. However, I want you to answer my question (or at least think about it if you are unwilling to answer) because your answer will tell you how in line with the teachings of Jesus you really are.
ignatzz kobe14 TimothyMcPherson What you said is correct. I completely agree with it. But please, don’t inject a straw man into my hypothetical. That’s not what I posed at all.
Nicely done. Makes me laugh to listen to people claim he is being persecuted for his beliefs. He is a very wealthy man who is not going to starve or lose his home. Even if I ignore what sounds like ignorant religious rhetoric I can’t ignore the racial comments that make me wonder what world he is talking about.
kobe14TimothyMcPhersonExpectMooreignatzzYour question is not valid. To tell someone about Jesus without feeding him/her or meeting his/her needs is not spreading the Gospel. If I simply talk about Jesus, but do nothing to help that person out, I have not spread the Gospel.
TimothyMcPherson kobe14 ExpectMoore ignatzz Please stop assuming things about my question. The person in the first scenario has had all his needs met. Just assume he is a wealthy American if you must.
kobe14 I admit that I haven’t read the entire GQ article, so I am merely responding to the quotes, sorry about that. I totally agree that God does call us to leave our life of sin, AFTER we have started following him. I think everyone needs to know they are a sinner, but it often feels like outspoken Christians hone in on the gay lifestyle more than most sins. I don’t think the church will impact the gay community by telling them how bad and wrong they are for being gay. I don’t think the church needs to tip toe around the belief that it is a sin, I just think the focus should be their sin in general, and the good news of God’s love. Once they turn to God, He will convict, and then whatever christian person is in relationship with them can speak into their lives about turning from sin too. I just think standing on a pedestal proclaiming what is wrong or right doesn’t win people over for Jesus these days, entering into relationship and loving people does. In 1 Thessalonians 2:8 Paul says this, “We loved you so much that we were delighted to share with you not only the Gospel of God but our lives as well, because you had become so dear to us.” I gather from this that Paul was compelled to share the Gospel with them because he loved them. As Christians we need to love people and share life with them, and if people know we love them they’ll be more likely to listen to the good news of Jesus. I think the gay community often feels like the church is saying: “Hey you’re bad, and you need to change and then we will associate with you.” I know that for most churches that isn’t the message they communicate, but I think a few loud voices are what they hear. They aren’t going to check out every church to see if they’re different from what imagine churches to be. Jesus said that the greatest commandments are to love God with everything we’ve got, and to love our neighbor as ourself. That means that loving people is a bigger priority than telling them their wrong!
zee31 they don’t tell you why they fire you- they just do it.
iamjakz maybe if these multi millionaire liberals- including the prez would practice what they preach, and give their money away, we would not have as many issues as hungry homeless people. The Robertsons don’t look or act rich, and I bet they give away more than the dens any day
kobe14TimothyMcPhersonExpectMooreignatzzI was answering your original question. The question was whether or not it is better to feed 10,000 people or to talk to one person about Jesus. By feeding 10,000 people I have talked to more people about Jesus than by speaking to one wealthy man.
However, if it is just me and the wealthy man who already has everything, I would tell him to sell all he has and give it to the poor. Then he would have treasure in Heaven.
TimothyMcPherson kobe14 ExpectMoore ignatzz I have to disagree with you. The UN feeds people. Does this mean the UN tells people about Jesus too?
Mostly well said. I completely disagree with the “Thirdly” paragraph. The church is a family and we should never leave one of our own hung out to dry. Even if it means some might be offended by our show of support.
Best article I’ve read on this issue.
I hate to see “Christians” spend more effort defending the “moral culture” in the US than on proclaiming the gospel.
kobe14TimothyMcPhersonExpectMooreignatzzI’ve worked with the UN before (UNHCR). Yes, they feed people. I feed people to spread the Gospel and because I love God. They feed people because they love them, too. To quote Jesus, “For he who is not against us is for us.”
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drew3573I understand what you are saying, but there are many people who do things in the name of Christ who I will definitely leave to to be “hung out to dry.” The Westboro Baptist Church and the KKK do all of their activities in the name of Christ. I will not defend what they do, although they say they are Christians.
I will not defend what Phil Robertson has said here, even though he says he is a Christian.
TimothyMcPherson kobe14 ExpectMoore ignatzz Please answer me with yes or no just once. Quoting lines of scripture does not mean much. Satan did the same to Jesus. The answer is no. After they have had their stomachs filled, these people will still have no knowledge of Jesus and be just as spiritually malnourished as before.
kobe14 Sydalish TimothyMcPherson Things we know will bring persecution: Such as give everything we have to the poor and follow him.
harpeme KateInMT Thanks, Harp. That’s exactly how I feel. I was directing my comment to those who are all up in arms about his suspension from his show. More people should stop being so reactive to anything that threatens their idea of what being a Christian is or is not. I honestly don’t care what anyone has for a faith system – Christian, Muslem, Buddhist, or Pagan. It’s how they live their lives and treat all living things that matters. And saying things that hurt others is NOT a good way to lead a life.
kobe14TimothyMcPhersonExpectMooreignatzz However, I do not do that. You can assume the answer is “no,” but you would be mistaken. I know a good many Christians in the United Nations who are serving there because they believe this is the best way they can be used to help others. So your answer is not necessarily true and is not so black and white as you would seem.
ExpectMoore kobe14 Sydalish TimothyMcPherson I agree. But because he is not being persecuted for one thing does not mean he is not being persecuted for another.
TimothyMcPherson kobe14 ExpectMoore ignatzz No, it is. You do not want to answer it because it would conflict with what this world has taught you about what is “good.” Jesus is clear: gaining the world (or for the sake of this hypothetical, getting fed) is worth nothing if a man forfeits his own soul.
meandonlyme Who exactly would getting rid of a reality show get Christ out of our nation? If anything, this show is disgusting for exploiting God and the Christian religion.
TimothyMcPherson drew3573 Tell me, what did Phil say that was not biblical? Was it the fact that he called homosexuality a sin?
kobe14 TimothyMcPherson ExpectMoore ignatzz Seeing 10,000 starving and doing nothing IS forfeiting your own soul. Your hypothetical is meaningless. If you let them die, they die not hearing the word. If you feed them, they live and have a chance to hear the word. If you preach to them while they are dying of starvation and do nothing to help them, your words are empty. You like to debate so you are throwing things out without getting to the real core of Jesus’ teachings. His teachings were feed, clothe, give drink, care for, the poor, those in need etc. In regards to this situation of being “persecuted” by the big bad media I suggest we follow Jesus’ teaching that he gave by example. He did not “take on” the media or the persecutors. He let his work speak for itself.
ExpectMoore kobe14 TimothyMcPherson ignatzz Firstly, I am not advocating “taking on the media.”Again, caring for others is absolutely something we should do and not neglect. And my hypothetical is not meaningless. You have made it so by injected facts I did not provide. Let me restate it for you and I will try to be very clear. Two choices. 1. provide 10,000 with food for a lifetime with the knowledge that they will never hear about Jesus; or 2. Tell one person (who has all his physical needs met) about Jesus. What I am trying to get to is this: is someone’s spiritual or physical wellbeing more important?
elegy36 I’m still wondering why it needs to be said? It just seems that so many are so terribly concerned with the actions of everyone else rather than their own. Just because this guy “qualified” his statements with “confessing” to having lived sinfully before doesn’t sterilize what he said.
I want to know why any of us need to say anything about homosexuality. Most people who believe that it is a sin also believe that gays can’t be Christians. So, why does it matter? We are so focused on sexuality as the sin, but we aren’t looking at abuse, manipulation, drunkeness, etc. Why not? Those are sins that affect other people directly and indirectly. Homosexuality doesn’t harm people. It only harms someone if they let it harm them by being so bothered by it that they can’t deal.
With that said, we have no business proclaiming sins. As it was said so clearly and repetitively in the Bible, we are ALL sinners. All.of.us. End of story. Period. Proclaiming sins and talking about sins and trying to soften it by saying “it’s the word of God” doesn’t make it OK. He NEVER told us to go out and tell everyone what to do or why they’re wrong. Why does that always get ignored?
SoGaChick They didn’t have English cuss words in Jesus’s day.
ErikaSparkman kobe14 Cory_Huffman JohnMeadows1 Qualifying his judgment with “I was a sinner too” is BS and a cop out, at best. First, he’s still a sinner, as are we all. Second, he judged and then said “I can’t judge”. That’s the problem.
zee31 criticalmyth For making offensive remarks.
Cory_Huffman kobe14 I agree with everything you said. I just don’t think Phil is standing from a pedestal here. Here was asked a question in an interview. Ideally we want to have a relationship with someone before we tell them they are wrong, but we are not always given that option, especially if we are public figures. This fact should not keep us from speaking the unqualified truth, especially when asked.
kobe14 JimGoodbody robcreece There may be a need to know sin, but there is no need to proclaim it for all people. You are to worry about your own sin. If your own sin is not homosexuality, then that is not a sin you need to concern yourself with. It’s that easy.
Sugarbush_Gasm kobe14 JimGoodbody robcreece I believe it’s our job to repeat what Jesus said. That is what the whole great commission was about.
Sugarbush_Gasm From my understanding, he didn’t just up and randomly start preaching about homosexuality – he was asked “What, in your mind, is sinful?.” Yes, we are all sinners, but as I stated in an earlier comment, not everyone knows it. In today’s society lots and lots of things are normal and accepted and encouraged that your average Christian would consider sinful. You say he never told us to go out and tell everyone what they are doing wrong, but how do you tell someone to do the right things without telling them how to stop doing the wrong things? You can keep sleeping with as many random people all the time that you want, get drunk, do drugs, steal money, oh but if you just read your bible and do these other things, its all good? The fact that we are all sinners is supposed to help us relate to those we are trying to help, not make us all high and mighty better than thou – that is the thing a lot of people get wrong.
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kobe14 ExpectMoore TimothyMcPherson ignatzz It may not be meaningless to you, but it is meaningless to the discussion. To create an imaginary situation in an effort to prove your point is a weak tactic. 1. If I choose to tell one person (option #2) then in turn I am also choosing to allow people to starve. 2. If I choose to feed the people, based on your scenario, I am taking the chance they are condemned to hell by never “hearing” about Jesus. You are providing a no win example in an effort to support your own belief. The fact is this – Jesus’ teaching encompassed all parts spiritual and physical. Based on Jesus’ teaching and his life, he actually instructed Christians to care for those in need and allow that to be the example that leads them to His love. Our words do not lead others to that love, nor do we as individuals. Jesus and the Holy Spirit take care of that in spite of us. Therefore, I feed the people in love as a result of the undeserved love I have received. Out of that action, they may never HEAR about Jesus, but many of them will know him because of the supernatural power that is the grace, peace, love and deliverance of God and his son. Also, in regards to the specific discussion on Phil, I do not need to defend him, nor does the church. We do not need to “speak out”. We are not called to “speak out” on Phil’s behalf (or God’s for that matter). We ARE called to feed, give drink, shelter, and care for those in need.
You have to understand social pressure is an important power for change in a country. It’s what gets Christian prisoners released in hostile countries and it can affect future generations.
I for one am glad A&E is getting heat, and I hope they get enough that a message is heard that if liberal groups continue their bigot-bashing it may backfire. That the media turning Robertson’s response into “un-Christian” isn’t tolerated.
You have to realize the church has been passive as long as, or longer than, it’s been judgmental. And it needs to stand for truth. With the love that the people it is declaring it to really matter.
I think about every gay friend I have every time I like, comment, or post. But my question to challenge this in response — are you willing to tell your gay friends, in love and emphasizing their inestimable value, that you believe living a homosexual lifestyle is wrong, according to God’s Word?
If you are, then I’m listening. Really. This is good perspective.
If you’re not, then this is just rhetoric.
If I had said what he said, I would be fired. Most people, in fact, would be fired.
Goodness gracious.
So here is a hearty “amen” from me!
Sooo just an observation here. You say it’s ridiculous that people are getting worked up over this, when there’s more important matters to be concerned with. But how much time and effort did you put into writing this article about the same subject? You sort of defeated your own opinion by taking the time and energy to write such a lengthy article on something you thought was so stupid to be worked up about in the first place… Maybe sometimes it’s better to just have an opinion, and not voice it? Maybe let your actions do the talking? Maybe concern yourself with matters you find important, instead of taking so much time and energy to criticize what others are passionate about? Then maybe your opinions might carry a little more weight, and wouldn’t be contradicting themselves…
I have my priorities in order and yes I’m angry and whether my church would support him I do Homosexuality IS wrong and he has the guts to speak out so Go Phil to heck with them all God is the ultimate Source for our rules , if some one doesn’t like the rules TAKE IT UP WITH GOD HE MADE THEM not phil May God bless and protect phil and all his family. I look forward to see if there are ANY moral net works that will take up his cause , although I doubt it because Christians don’t have the same rules applied to us , we are told to keep our opinions to ourselves for fear of hate speech or fear of being labeled a bigot, racist or a homophobe , well I for one say here and now if u are gay and u don’t repent and you do not accept Jesus You will burn in hell along with others that don’t repent for their sins, Its sad to see so many back away because they dont have the guts to stand up for this guy .
How effective will the church be without freedom of speech. This is not just an A&E matter , they are part of the bigger machine . That is what you fail to realize . Yes he spoke freely but was smacked down by the main stream media to put him in his place . Also the church is not the one doing anything anyway , they are silent just like on the Christians being murdered in the middle east .
just want to point out that the your “On the topic of homosexuality” is incorrect….Mr. Robertson was asked “what he considers sin” and he answered…”let’s start with homosexuality…….Bestiality, sleeping with that woman and this woman….”
So you should have written “On the topic of sin” instead….
What you fail to realize is that this is more than Phil Robertson. It is about the ultimate silencing of Christians. The militant gays (and apparently christians like you) want to neuter the gospel. Why would any homosexual ever come to Christ without ever coming face-to-face with the fact that homosexuality is a sin? The gospel without the ability to call sin – sin, is simply half of the gospel. I bet you crafted a long, ridiculous rant when the militant gay machine went after Chick-fil-A too. Hmmmm…spending quiet a lot of time when you could be blogging about the plight of the polar bears or something more worth your while.
AJPena no one has been silenced. That’s the whole point. everyone who wants to have a say is having a say.
MandiBristowGood point! People like this guy seem to think that standing against one wrong is pointless if somewhere in the world there is a bigger wrong to stand against. Talk about stupid logic!
“A&E does not preach these values. Some of their directors might love
Jesus, but the Beatitudes are not their brand. GLAAD does not promote
on a weekly basis the values of Christ. They might LOVE Jesus, but it’s
not something they proclaim on a regular basis as their mantra. But we
do.”
That is the dumbest thing I have read in a long time. While living in a civilized democratic society I have the expectation that every group should be treated equally, but as a believer I can confidently say that A&E and GLADD are run contrary (not just differently) to the values of the Church at large. Your words are the sound of a milktoast christianity that makes faith out to be a type or brand of kindness. That would be a salvation by works brother, my kindness can be as big a stumbling block as it can be a fruit of the Spirit in my life. I think you are guilty of the former.
LuanneBogartSo what you’re saying is that there is no sin?
tylerbrainerdAJPenaYes, so far. But it is the goal. There’s not a whole lot of tolerance for Christian beliefs about right and wrong.
AJPena tylerbrainerd So you’re operating entirely on your hypothetical idea of what MIGHT happen….
and you don’t think that’s silly?
If I pay a guy to mow my yard, he says something that might offend my neighbors, and I fire him I am not in the wrong. His freedom of speech is not valid on my property. Now, if he wants to stand in the street, he can say whatever he wants, but I’m not going to pay him to stand there.
It’s the same for A&E. A&E is not a public channel. It’s not a city hall. It’s private property, and the owners decided that they didn’t want to offend the neighbors – simple as that.
It’s all just free publicity anyway. Congratulations everyone for contributing to increased sales of duck calls.
tylerbrainerdAJPenaI’m operating on what I see in society. It isn’t a “might happen.” The Chick-fil-A CEO, the Bonilla Pasta CEO, Phil Robertson…if you speak against gays your gonna get attacked.
RickADisher I don’t know if you have ever read about early church history, but it seems to have been fairly effective… given that the Roman Empire outlawed it and in 400 years the official religion became Christianity. Rights don’t effect God’s hand. We are to preach truth, in love, no matter the law. The issue is that American Christians don’t want to be uncomfortable, so we fight for RIGHTS instead of the Gospel.
DevinTownRickADisherI agree with you, but how can we preach the Gospel if we can’t talk about sin. If a person is fooled by Satan, himself, or the world that his sin isn’t real then he is likely to die still in his sins.
AJPena LuanneBogart Technically speaking, no, there is no sin, and I’m talking semantics here. “Sin” is just a symbol for abnormal behaviors. Abnormal, of course, is subjective and subject to change. Drinking alcohol is a sin to Southern Baptists, but it’s A-okay to Catholics, both Christian denominations.
And to play devil’s advocate, Jesus died to save us from our sins, and he did so…so why are we all worrying ourselves about sin? It’s done, nailed to the cross…literally. We’re all forgiven whether we like it or not, so how about we make good on this incredible gift and shower each other with love and tolerance?
You left out the fact that Phil Robertson also said this in the interview:
“However, I would never treat anyone with disrespect just because they are different from me. We are all created by the Almighty and like Him, I love all of humanity. We would all be better off if we loved God and loved each other.”
RickADisher he was smacked down by the folks who write his paycheck. freedom of speech doesn’t mean freedom from consequences. That’s the fresh scent of capitalism.
Excellent post & I completely agree. The way that the Christian community has been carrying on about this is downright embarrassing. The message they are sending is that it’s ok to be crude, offensive & ignorant as long as you quote scripture. That’s ridiculous. It just shows how worldly & idolatrous American Christians really are. Also, the insinuation that people are making that Phil is being persecuted is offensive to every Christian overseas that is actually being persecuted. Phil is not being persecuted. He is merely facing the consequences of his foolish actions.
Excellent post. As you point out, how we respond actually says a lot about how much we follow the teachings of Christ–love one another, forgive, turn the other cheek, following the example of Christ by having the mind of Christ in Philippians 2 which says Christ laid down his right……It seems we Christians know a lot about the Bible but know nothing about being like Christ.
Phil had the right to say what he did. A and E had the right to say they don’t want him on the show for a while. Everyone has gone to their corners claiming their rights. No one has been silenced. No one has been harmed. It is going to be ok.
RickADisher Yeah, I am pretty sure Christian’s voices and message was much clearer when there was real persecution. You might want to check Church history.
kobe14 TimothyMcPherson drew3573 I go to a church that is 50% nonwhite. I can assure you that my brothers and sisters are deeply hurt by his language re: black Americans.
CharlesHood He didn’t say that in the interview. He said it after he realized what he said and was offering an “apology”.
“…he’s not being held hostage by Bible-haters somewhere in Southeast Asia. It’s worse than that. The eldest member of America’s favorite reality TV https://matthewpaulturner.com/2009/08/25/family/ has been suspended http://www.nola.com/tv/index.ssf/2013/12/duck_dynasty_star_phil_roberts.html by A&E!”
I seriously cannot believe you just said that Phil being suspended indefinitely, is worse that people risking their lives in Asia and being held hostage because of their faith. Sarcastic or not, are you aware of how ignorant you sound? I understand that this upsets you, and I think rants are fine, but this statement is foolish and insensitive. If you want to sound even somewhat intellectual, you might want to compare this situation to something else that is actually relateable.
During your next rant, I suggested that you have someone edit your post before putting it online in order to avoid additional senseless statements. You have no idea what the Christians in Southeast Asia are going through, and that is clear by this naive statement.
AJPena I came to Christ without having sin preached to me. I came to Christ because Jesus’ love and healing and compassion blew me away. I looked at the world and could see there was obviously something wrong. And Jesus stood in stark contrast to that wrongness. He didn’t condemn those on the outside of the chosen crowd. Instead he ate with them and offered healing. And because of that mercy, they were changed. I was changed. People know they are sinners. People know we get it wrong all the time. People need to know there is One who still wants to have dinner with us. The difference is made not in the judgment and the preaching of sin, but in the act of mercy and grace. I believe Paul stated that it is God’s mercy which leads to repentance–not the preaching on sin.
RicMantraut And that is what makes me even sadder as a Christian. Where is our outrage at the racial remarks? Why are we ok with what he said about black Americans?
Reallis Someone doesn’t understand the concept of sarcasm.
You’re right, it wasn’t clear in the article I used as my source, I read it too quickly, my bad:
http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2013/12/18/phil-robertson-suspended-after-comments-about-homosexuality/
Even though I do not agree with everything written in this post, some good points were made; however, these same points can be made without the sarcasm.
JoshuaMcKenrick CharlesHood You dont know what was said in the interview, you only know what was written in the magazine, the edited version. Not saying I know, but no one really knows.
Religious persecution comes in all forms…this is a type in this country. No we are not tortured or put to death as in some, but we are persecuted for our belief in God’s word and standing for His word. You sir missed the mark! Nice rant of your own…
I read an article in World Magazine a few weeks ago detailing the demise of over 80 people in N. Korea. Their crime was the possession of a Bible. Their families got to look on as they faced the firing squad. Then, the families were sent to work camps, never to be seen or heard from again. Maybe I read this article wrong, but isn’t he just pointing out that, as Christians, we’d be better served simply serving God? I’ve seen one half of one episode of Duck Dynasty, so I can’t claim that I completely understand what’s going on here. Frankly, I don’t have a lot of time to what TV. I think it is fantastic that these folks declare their faith on prime time television, but I live among extremely intelligent folks who reject Christ because they can’t get beyond the ignorance and persecution and lack of love they see INSIDE the American church. They read threads like this one and see us tearing each other apart instead of trying to understand each other. It’s pride folks, and it’s what Jesus asks us to give up so that we can accept Him completely. I can’t imagine that there are many Americans, living most of their lives on American soil, who know what real persecution means. He is merely challenging us to check our priorities. We’ve become numb to and ignorant of the pain in the rest of the world. We don’t know what suffering for Christ really means.
@sydalish, the truth is, we Christians have been offended on cable TV for quite some time. We have been mocked, and told to ignore the trash on TV, turn the Chanel, look away! Why does the same not apply to those who oppose Phil! This is the true hypocrisy in America. It’s ok to offend one group and condemn us for our short comings, (ie judging others) but its not ok for us! When you left Christianity, isn’t it true you’re throwing the same stone of those you accused?
*Every day. *Myriad. Learn grammar before you argue something like this.
So, if you say we should be focused on other world evens that are so much more important then why do Americans spend all of their energy on gay rights when they could be spending it on orphans in other countries? One is about life or death then the other is about social acceptance? Gay rights and equal rights of people of different races are two totally different things, which I think it is odd that Americans feel that they are the same. Gays and straights can both vote, drink from the same water fountain, and ect so clearly not the same struggle! We are disgusted by Miley and worried about how big Kim K got while pregnant… it is just what the media picks to focus on. Also, for the record anti-gay views are not wrong just like gay views are not wrong or right… why does everyone not respect each other’s opinions?! Sin is sin no matter what way you slice it and we are all sinners, but dont force me to think that sin is ok, ever!
Meh. Rather than return the sarcasm, I’ll say it like I see it. You seem to want to be the contrarian here. I see this short lived story as a good thing because the far majority of people are sticking up for Phil. The “hatred” coming from the other side is very real and our Christian liberties are at stake. And something more, I don’t like it when you start throwing around the “homeless people, malnutrition.. ” arguments. And if I ask you if thats what you’re up to will you say “How dare you judge me, you don’t know me, and yes, I do this and that..” would it escape your notice that thats what a lot of us are doing too? Articles like this smell of contrarianism and seem like an ornary response against your own side.
ReformedSoutherner So what is the consequence for Miley making a fool out of herself, more money? Then teaching others that it is ok to act like that because clearly you get attention and money for acting in such a way. So who is the ignorant person?
When I read the comment on how he’s not being held-hostage by
Bible-haters in Asia and that there are people dieing in Sudan, it
reminded me of a person that gets a speeding ticket or gets caught
shop-lifting and then starts ranting about how there are so many murders
going on in this country. Their reasoning is that since there truly are
much worse things going on in the world, their smaller wrong-doing is
invalidated. There’s also the faulty logic that assumes if a person
cares about one thing they are not capable of caring about another i.e
you care about Phil Roberson -> you don’t care about the suffering in
the rest of the world. That’s the reasoning I hear from some when I
work with any international relief project (BTW, the Sudan has been one
of them), that they have chosen not to have anything to do with
international suffering because there are people suffering in this
country.
And no, I don’t think this is about free speech either.
I’m not looking at this from a legal perspective which involves a person’s rights, I’m looking at it from a business perspective. A&E is a private company and can hire and fire people on whatever
terms they wish. But at the same time, the rest of us are A&E’s
customers, and customers have the right to choose which businesses they
patronize. If a company does something the customers don’t like, it is perfectly reasonable of them to take their business elsewhere.
To me, wise and careful doesn’t encompass entitling a “wake up call for Christians” article to rhyme with the f word. Also saying “every damn Sunday” a few words after mentioning the Beatitudes. Really?
Also, if A&E said that Phil said things that their network does not support, so they support Christianity? Don’t think so, but clearly they do support gay rights?
True. I also didn’t notice YOU posting about the ongoing Sudanese problem yesterday. Or the day before. Yet you’re chiding people who have seen yet another example of our American liberties being crushed by the fascism of political correctness. C’mon, all Americans have cause to be concern about this. The Sudanese monster has been ongoing for many years and no one has an answer what can be done about it. This? This we can hopefully impact.
Just for the record, anti-gay views are anti-people views. It’s as wrong as misogyny or racism or any other bias against a group of people. It’s not like, I hate the color blue, or I hate that car. It’s people. If you want to continue hating people you are free to do so, but don’t force me to think that hate is ok, ever.
AJPena tylerbrainerd you have an odd definition of attacked, if you think that the chick fil a thing (which amounted to a small boycott) was an attack, but the response to this situation (wherein a bunch of christians are boycotting a&e) is somehow ALSO an attack on christians.
Christianity is about more than just oppressing gays. It’s mostly about loving Christ. And being against hate speech is not against Christians, it’s against hate speech. Hate is hate. If you want Christian to mean “hates gays” go join Westboro.
KyleWarren
Your analogy is true, but take it a step farther. If you own a business and one of your employees says something that might offend the customers, you are well within your rights to fire him. But then if other customers liked this employee and hear that you fired him, and didn’t agree with your reason for doing so, they are also well within their rights not to do business with you anymore.
It’s the same here. Nobody is talking about legally forcing them to hire Phil Roberson back (at least no one that I’ve heard). It’s private property and a business, and the customers have just decided it was a business they didn’t wish to support.
Hey M.P.T., why don’t you look in the mirror and see your wisdom for what it really is? Foolishness! ✌️
LuanneBogart He was doing that to the “religious” people who were making a mockery of God. He seemed to have a thing about being kind to the non-believers who were outcasts of society while demonstrating ire toward those who should know better.
Your Christian liberties are not at stake. In any way. You are 100% free to be Christian. The issue isn’t the Christianity. This article is a breath of fresh air against the ugly and ignorant views being circulated.
Another liberal who won’t stand up for the gospel when that time comes either. I regularly speak up about all issues including the true gospel, not just the social gospel. All I get is hate from the liberal wing. It’s a rough existence. Of course we expect people to try and shame for daring to speak up about the things they care about when it just happens to not be about homeless people even if that is also an issue they speak up about. I’m so tired of folks trying to act like Christians don’t want to address ALL issues out there. I don’t know many Christians who DON’T speak up about that too. I am not ashamed for speaking up about DD.
When did Turner speak up about Pastor Saeed in Iran? When did Turner speak up about Benghazi or Fast and Furious? When did he speak up about the constant theft of our liberties by the president? When did he speak up about babies murdered or families torn apart by drugs? When did he speak up about any of these issues? He doesn’t because he’s just another liberal trying to shame us for happening to take a stand here.
I’m tired of condescending speeches by the “holy” ones out there.
This is a beautifully written article that articulates so much that needs to be said. What a relief to read this. What a blessing. Thank you for standing for love and wisdom.
I follow you on Twitter and enjoy your blog. This post however, made me cringe and wrinkle my nose up in protest. I found it to be more than a little bit condescending and judgmental… and it even insulted me with a few of your choice words. But, because I am a grown up and realize that other people have opinions that differ than mine, it’s really okay. I won’t try to boycott you, write threatening letters to your sponsors, talk bad about you, or quit reading your blog! Who decided that it wasn’t okay to disagree and move on? We have become a culture that is becoming intolerant of intolerance. Definition of hypocrisy?
Boozleford Of course. That’s why we say “Love the sinner, hate the sin.” You can hate the color blue, and hate that car, you can even hate that car twice as much if it also happens to be blue, and you can do all that without hating the person driving that blue car.
Sugarbush_Gasm Ephesians 4:29 says to not let any unwholesome talk come from our mouths. Plain and simple.
AJPena tylerbrainerd I feel sorry for people getting hate mail about their sermons which might also be a little bit full of hate. And also the guy worth $17 million who hasn’t just had his say not just in GQ but in multiple other platforms to the point that this article was a surprise to absolutely zero people who had heard of him. Just kidding I’m MUCH MORE SORRY for gay people who get actually killed, brutally, painfully, with every intention of humiliation and torture and their families who have to live on knowing their loved ones final moments were pure hell on earth. All in the name of Christ. I guess my bible that says “Thou shalt not kill” contains a misprint?
Also last time I checked Chick-fil-A is still operating and the CEO is still richer than most people will ever know. Probably way too rich for someone just selling chicken. And what the heck, when I was at the store today I had the option to buy Barilla pasta. I thought the gays had that corporation shut down?
A&E didn’t make this decision based on some large outcry from the public. The first time anybody heard about it was the reposting of an article about the decision. There hasn’t actually been an attack on this guy from militant gays today. I can’t point to one single liberal friend of mine who thinks Phil Robertson doesn’t a) have the right to think what he thinks or b) shouldn’t be allowed to say it. Every single person I know — including gay people!!! — just shrug and say yeah well, that’s why I don’t watch the show. The 1st Amendment does not extend to a private corporation making the decision that they might want to end the relationship with somebody that they are paying a lot of money to represent their network. Why? They’re trying to appeal to a lot of people in order to make money, and advertisers get nervous when they are spending money on somebody who paints the pre civil rights days in the south as full of happy black folks singing in the cotton fields without a care in the world. Aside from the lynchings, conveniently left out of that worldview. That’s capitalism. If you don’t like it, well maybe socialism is more your speed?
Either way, the only thing people ask of Christians is to stop living with so much hate in their hearts. It’s not a good look.
No, @sogachick this is not plain and simple. I understand unwholesome talk to be hateful speech that turns many away from the church. Phil’s words confirm the idea many non believers have, that Christianity is backwoods, ignorant, and hateful. Christianity should be joyful.
kobe14 JimGoodbody robcreece When I witness to non-believers, I start by building a relationship and trust. When I explain the path to Jesus, I explain that sin creates a gap between God and man and that Jesus’ sacrifice is the bridge over that gap. I don’t then begin making a list of their sins. People understand at their core what sin is. As they develop and learn, they will see what the Bible outlines as sin. There were plenty of things that I did without understanding they were sins or proscribed in the Bible until I started maturing in my faith. I didn’t need someone to call me names or make me feel less than human to convict me. God did that on his own. That verse, Colossians 4:5-6 is my life verse.
Boozleford unwholesome talk can be anything that is a stumbling block for others. When most non-Christians see/hear Christians cuss, they view that as hypocrisy. As Christians, we should be mindful to let the words of our mouth be pleasing to the Lord. (Psalm 19:14). We can’t just pick and choose parts of the bible that fit our lifestyle.
Christianity is joyful, however that doesn’t mean everything is going to be sunshine and roses. If that’s the way you see it, you should check your theology and dig deeper into the Bible.
LuanneBogart Try reading Romans ch. 1 v. 24 through 27 (New Testament). It is very clear about homosexuality & the punishment thereof.
notmycircus AJPena tylerbrainerd
notmycircus, we will probably never meet or even have another conversation, but I feel like you are my friend. A kindred spirit if you will.
I asked my gay daughter if she had heard about this whole thing and she said “yea, whatever. I mean isn’t the whole point of that show to celebrate a bunch of red neck bigots?” She said “it’s not news to her that there are people who feel like she does.”
@sarabrown1 but the comments in question are not reasoned and balanced comments about hating the sin and loving the sinner, they are vulgar and racist comments that reiterate ignorance and are devoid of grace. Who are we protecting? Is this someone we want to represent Christianity? Someone who says a vagina is just more desirable? Someone with very little perspective on the very real struggles black people faced and have faced?
This really perplexes me because I’ve never read this blog before and it’s these opinions in this article that have made me a fan.
At first I paid no mind to this Duck Dynasty guy — I was distracted and chuckling over his “vagina vs. anus” thing (I’m gay) and “they were truly happy” comments (my husband is Black). Beneath our dignity, not worth comment.
But then I noticed a very serious idea at stake here for devoted, self-examining Christians, like many of you. It was embedded in standard, maudlin rhetoric so it almost slipped past me. But I’m not Christian; did you catch it? “If you simply put your faith in Jesus coming down in flesh, through a human being, God becoming flesh living on the earth, dying on the cross for the sins of the world, being buried, and being raised from the dead—yours and mine and everybody else’s problems will be solved. And the next time we see you, we will say: ‘You are now a brother. Our brother.’ So then we look at you totally different then.”
Hold up. I would *now* be a brother? Your brother? And *then* you look at me totally different?
I’d be in the Brother Club? Seen totally differently, like an insider? Of a *human* group?
Of course, if there’s an inside, there’s an outside. And there’s a *social* boundary drawn between the two. And a person or people to draw it. And someone to police it. You know the source of the term “scapegoat” — from Leviticus — a goat was chosen, the villagers’ sins symbolically placed on it, and it would be chased out of the village — cast out. To the outside, across the boundary of another *human* group. And the villagers would feel purified of their sins, or fears, or whatever. For most people, it works.
So, some groups which have been scapegoated: Eunuchs. Samaritans. Jews violating certain Levitical laws (punishment: “cast out”). Christians (mid-Roman empire). Later, Catholics. “Witches”. Apostates. Recently, Muslims. All sorts of out-groups who violated sacred laws. Here’s how you know someone’s being scapegoated: A person speaks from a platform of moral superiority which allows them to look down on, judge, and announce punishment, but oddly — without explanation — they repeatedly pick out the same violators and sins over and over. Out of all the sinners and freaks to choose from, the same ones keep getting constantly brought up, even by different people, again and again. Until it becomes a cliche’ to call out, say, parasitical Blacks, or greedy Jews, or Evangelical Christians (sorry, not to put anyone else’s suffering on the scale of the Shoah, and I haven’t heard any proposal to limit Evangelicals’ civil rights, but you get the point).
Or maybe, “start with homosexual behavior and just morph out from there”. Constructing a boundary, legitimately borrowed from Leviticus and Romans, which puts me on the outside. Okay, once or twice; it’s a Christian teaching, I can hear that, like listening to a Mormon appeal. Just like all the other Pauline sins we’re asked to self-examine. But when this ONE Pauline/Levitical law gets used to shame my nephew, oppose my (literal) civil rights, mock the dignity of our marriage, and gets reduced to packaged buzzwords, it’s no longer an humble teaching but one of the pharisees’ laws, technically correct, but which really keep insiders insiders and outsiders outsiders. And if I convert and come inside, ” the next time we see you, we will say: ‘You are now a brother. Our brother.’ So then we look at you totally different then.” To which I think, doesn’t Jesus look at me — all of us — like brothers *now*, while we sinners are still outside the boundary, like Samaritans shunned outside an Israelite village? Because that’s where he is, an outsider’s outsider, the ultimate scapegoat.
The appeal shouldn’t be for me to become an insider, is it? *He’s* the one Christians want me to go with, right?
On behalf of some of us listening to the Christian dialogue, thanks for your time. Andrew.
.
People are not upset because a man was kicked off a reality show, they are terrified that ours has become a country where the only group not “tolerated” are Christians. God expects us to live righteous lives and help as many people understand the gospel so that they might inherit eternal life. Love prompts those people to speak out. He believes in sharing warnings from the scripture just like I would say something to someone who was about to walk in the street as a bus is about to pass by. Is that hate? It’s not about him, it’s about our rapidly changing culture and the growing persecution of anyone who believes in “absolute truths”.
SharonJenningsBowler notmycircus AJPena tylerbrainerd
Thank you sharonjenningsbowler. I just get bothered that there’s actual real pain and suffering in this world, all around, where our energy can be placed. And If I’m going to look up to somebody to show me how to be a Christian…well I guess I find the Pope a much more compelling example of truly living, day in and day out, a life in service. Not that I begrudge the Duck Dynasty family their success for making really awesome duck callers, and if you actually read the GQ article it’s easy to see what is so interesting, and yes surprising about them (Phil has a masters in Education, good for him!). I’m tired of being told I’m not a good Christian because I choose to love instead judge.
LeanneZeck RicMantraut
Many of us are very disturbed about the racist comments. I for one brought them up in my comment. I think the racist remarks he made were a big part of why A&E suspended him. However this article is about the over reaction of the Church. And it’s over reaction was about the gay comments and how right they were.
I think his comments were very inappropriate and I don’t really care about A&E’s action either way. I don’t watch the show. But I think Sarah Palin and her lot are an embarrassment for Christians everywhere.
meandonlyme You think it was “ok” with Christians, the media, or the general public? Do you live in a cave?
Lol, okay I’ll go check my theology. Thanks. That’s a great way to open a discussion, if you want to be offensive.
Did I say, I ride a unicorn over a rainbow on my way to church? Obviously it’s not all sunshine and roses. Obviously. But in religion, when we take so much on faith–especially hardship, especially burdens, when faith is all we have–it’s hope and joy and love that we pray for, not hate. Not vaginas and men’s anuses.
TimothyMcPherson How do you feel about the Salvation Army’s anti-Gay marriage stance and their threats to pull out of serving the poor in New York if gay marriage passed?
You seem like you really get this stuff so I’m really curious.
Maybe people are overreacting about the Duck Dynasty issue but most of us are sick to death of having gays crammed down our throats! We are supposed to not only love them as fellow humans, we are supposed to affirm their lifestyle! We may not call sin, sin! Yeah that dirty homophobic word, SIN!
If I say I think homosexuality is wrong I’m a hater!! BUT if I say that we are all sinners in need of redemption I’m narrow and a bigot and probably a racist!!!
And what is worse, when I insist that, by law, I have the right to verbally express my beliefs in public, I’m a tea-bagger, a racist and an anarchist!
If this is the modern church that accepts sin as normal, marriage between two men or two women as acceptable and part of God’s plan then I want no part of it!
You people are SICK!!!
BTW the reason for the popularity of Duck Dynasty is mostly that they present a family that is close, goes to church and doesn’t brag about their filthy lifestyle!!
And there was just a news story on the TV just now about how a manger scene is illegal. Are you beginning to get it??? Nah didn’t think so.
AndrewImlay I made an account specifically to like this message. It’s the exact same message I was trying to get across yesterday to a friend of mine who is a self-identified ‘righteous Christian’, only you put it more elegantly.
JaneScroggins Responses like this are why we can’t just have a nice conversation about it.
McRedI bet you wouldn’t feel that way if it was Muslims. Christians hate on Muslims, gays… anyone different. The only group not “tolerated”… please.
The pot calling the kettle black.
I don’t know why, but you are like the only rational blogger I have read about this issue. I knew I could come here for a little open mindedness. thank you, (I’m a reader of Jessica’s blog)
Wait what? What does a pop star singing have to do with anything? Don’t draw false parallels. It’s weird.
AndrewImlay As a Christian, I wish I had a better response for you. I realize I’m being presumptuous even assuming that you want a response.
Yes. I believe Christ came to be the scape goat so that we would stop making scape goats of each other. He came in abject humility. He didn’t insist on His rights. He stood silent before His accusers, “like a sheep before its shearers”. If we say we are following Christ’s example, then insist on our rights, on the whole, we’ve got it wrong.
We must stand up for what is right. The Bible teaches us to warn each other in a humble, loving way. We are told to reserve judgement for God. God sent Jonah to Nineveh to “warn” the people. God did not want to destroy them. He loved them. But Jonah didn’t understand God. His humanity did not contain enough humility or love. They turned when he finally warned them, but he was still angry about it. He wanted to see his own brand of justice met out on those people. He did not understand why God would not withhold His love from them. He could not see that God loved them as much as He loved him. He did not see his own sin – a common problem in the Christian community today. He was too busy diagnosing their sin.
I believe that the Bible is clear. We are all part of a fallen creation. We chose the fall. We bear sin in our bodies. No sin is greater than another, but as humans, we tend to rank sin. God does not. Throughout scripture, God shows his love for ALL people. We are sin-bearers, but we are also likeness-bearers. He came in abject humility to “get” us. He asks us to respond to Him as he came – in humility.
We all have some propensity to sin. The Bible is also very clear about what sin is. At times, I am guilty of gossip. God says that when I gossip, I commit “murder in my heart”. Strong words. If I say I believe the Bible, then I have to accept that as truth. I believe God loves us whether we accept or reject Him. I also believe that He loves us so much that He desires relationship with us. We become brothers when we choose the relationship with Christ – when we choose to reciprocate in a relationship with Him. He came for ALL, but not all accept Him. It sounds as if you know the Bible well, so I apologize if nothing I’ve shared is helpful, or if you were not seeking a response. Please know that the intention here is the hope of sharing what I believe to be truth in the spirit of humility and love.
JaneScroggins “Love does no harm to a neighbor, therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.” – Romans 13:10
The bible has 6 admonitions of homosexuality, and 362 admonitions of heterosexuality. Does that mean heterosexuals are worse sinners than homosexuals, or that they just need more supervision?
A&E has just released the following statement regarding the Phil Robertson “The Duck Commander” controversy:
“We know that Phil Robertson is a deeply religious man and our decision to suspend “Duck Dynasty” was not because of his recent statements to GQ magazine. Our decision was based in the Holy Scripture contained in Matthew 19:24 “Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
“We at A&E are deeply concerned about Phil’s soul, in fact, we are as concerned about his soul as he is about all the homosexual’s souls. Therefore, we have suspended Phil’s income so that A&E, and all of its subsidiaries, are not complicit in the eternal damnation of this brave and noble man’s eternal soul.”
McRed Bull. Catholic schools fire people who support gay rights ALL. THE. TIME. In my hometown just this year that happened. So don’t give me that bull about not being tolerated, when Christians clearly won’t tolerate anyone who disagrees with them either.
AndrewImlay Yes. To put it bluntly, there is, in fact, an “inside” and an “outside”. This is talked about in several passages of the Bible. Christ said it Himself in Matthew 12:30 (“He who is not with Me is against Me”). Revelation 20:15 also states “And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”. So is there a dividing line? Absolutely.
Here’s the thing. It’s a God defined line. It is not a “human group” insofar as it was not established by humans although it IS comprised of humans. Hebrews 2:10 states ” For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,” Christ is the one “who sanctifies” and He only calls “those who are sanctified” brother.
Christians DO want you to become an “insider”. I personally would love to hear that you have become an “insider”. NOT because I want you to be like me, however. God knows I have so many of my own flaws I would never wish those on anyone else. Christians are not perfect. Some do act like they think they are, unfortunately, and I’m ashamed to admit I know I’ve been guilty of acting that way myself. Please don’t hold that against us because remember, we’re NOT actually perfect.
Should the appeal be for you to become an insider? Yes. Revelation 20:15 (I quoted it above) tells us what happens to outsiders and it will not be pleasant. Many people, both inside and outside, feel that God is love and if God is love He would never do such a thing. If God was ONLY love than they would be right. But in addition to being love, the Bible also tells us He is “just” and His just nature requires consequences for sin. If God were only love, there would only be an “inside”. If God were only just, there would only be an “outside”. Thankfully, Christ’s sacrificial death means God can be both.
Romans 3:23 says ” for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” which means we ALL start on the outside. So how does anyone go from being outside to being inside? The answer is in the verse that can be seen behind home plate at any baseball game or behind the end zone at any football game. John 3:16 states “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.” This is the life ring that God throws out to everyone. God loves the world. Not just those “inside”. The world.
This well known verse identifies the dividing line between inside and outside. It’s not that inside people are better or that outside people are worse. “Whoever believes in Him”. THAT is the one and only thing that transitions people from inside to outside. Grabbing that life ring that God has, in His love, thrown out so that we can escape the lake of fire is the only thing that can save us. I’ve grabbed onto that ring and, while that makes me no better than anyone else, it does mean I have nothing to fear in this life OR the next. My prayer is that everyone I speak with will also grab onto that ring.
AndrewImlay Or interracial couples. From Loving v. Virginia: “Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix.”
In fact, if you bring up Genesis story of Adam and Eve, why is the Genesis story of the Tower of Babel any less relevant?
Boozleford how is it vulgar and racist that Phil Robertson said that HE finds a woman’s vagina more desirable than a man’s anus? That’s merely stating personal preference. There was nothing racist about it. And quite frankly, he’s entitled to his own personal preference.
Totally hypothetical, but if Sean Hayes (whom I absolutely love!) was to express that he found a man’s anus more desirable than a woman’s vagina, would the spokesperson for GLAAD call for immediate action to that? Absolutely not!
There’s a clear case of double standards here, and the “Christian” community should be able to speak up for Phil Robertson, without being told to “shut the duck up”.
bigmikelewis So why concentrate on only the issues that divide you and not the issues that unite? I disagree with the pope on some things and the pope disagrees with me on some things, but a) there are issues of immense passion that excite the both of us and b) we can agree to disagree on the issues that we don’t agree on. i’m not a Catholic, but the fact that many Christians spend so much time on things like abortion and homosexuality and NOT on issues like homelessness, the sick and the poor, you know, the things that EVEN YOU agree we agree on! That’s what’s so frustrating.
I disagree with what A&E did, but then again, I’m not A&E. To simply castigate “the liberal wing” as one contiguous group is not at all helpful. I think the pope gets that. Do you?
Bartondad It’s actually “milquetoast” not “milk toast” unless there are Christians I am not aware of dunking their toast in milk. Anyway, the other type of Christianity is militant, narrow-minded, stifling, and ignorant. The Christ I know was selfless and kind, and would be deeply saddened by having his words connected with a selfish need to be “correct” and with those who judge the souls of others, instead of working on their own spirituality. A Christian should be recognized by their actions, as the Robertsons WERE prior to this embarrassing and shameful debacle, rather than their very loud “vaginas are better than anuses” words.
So why is it ok for you to blast people for giving their opinion on this but ok for you to write a long post about it? How do you know people didn’t also discuss the deaths in Sudan or children dying? This article surely wasn’t about either of the two. So according to what you just said, you should calm the “duck” down and write about bigger issues instead of writing this post that lost my interest after about the third paragraph. But I guess since YOU think your opinion is better than everyone else’s it’s ok for YOU to write about it. Get real.
AJPena “If someone is gay and seeks the Lord with good will, who am I to judge?” – Pope Francis
AJPena tylerbrainerd And Catholic schools fire people all the time for supporting gay rights. So where is their tolerance for those support equal rights?
AJPena tylerbrainerd What about Home Depot? Or Amazon? Or Microsoft? Or Apple? Or General Mills? Or Starbucks? Christian groups supported boycotts against these companies simply because they support gay rights as well.
JaneScroggins Yes. You are a hater. You are projecting hate, anger, and bitterness. Instead of ranting and protesting and yelling “you people are sick!” please try to pray and reflect. Honestly. Pray. Think truly of God.
The “gays” are not “crammed down our throats” they are humans. Just living. Hating them will not mean you do not have to live in society with them. You have to live in society with gay people, Jewish people, black people, poor people, people who have children out of wedlock, pastors, fathers, ministers, rabbis, nuns, Muslims, Mormons. You and I have to live in the same society and your anger is far more disturbing to me than another person’s homosexuality. Which, I’ll be honest, is not disturbing to me at all, I can’t even imagine how it feels to be so offended by gay people, but I believe you that its really upsetting to you.
JohnCallender LuanneBogart Romans 1 was mistranslated. The literal Greek is “morally effeminate”, which early translators thought meant homosexuals. It’s clear from other Greek literature (such as Aristotle) that Greeks associated masculinity with courage and the lack of it with -cowardliness-. It is means “moral coward”. You can’t literally translate it to mean “homosexuals” any more than you can interpret “lady killer” to literally mean someone who murders women.
So again, do try reading Romans, particularly Romans 2: “You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment?”
And continue on to Romans 13:10: “Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.”
Love is not a sin, and neither is it your position to judge. Read your bible. Your ENTIRE bible.
McRed The only people not tolerated are Christians. Fat people, poor people, Muslims. Gay people. Black people. Southeast Asians. Transsexuals. Veterans. Homeless people. Drunks. Drug abusers. Women who breastfeed in public. Smokers.
You haven’t heard about the black people arrested for walking into stores and paying for things with their own money? Because its so crazy to imagine that a black person has enough money to buy expensive things, the only logical thing is to arrest them.
What a safe, wonderful, tiny, windowless corner of the world you must dwell in, if it truly terrifies you that Christians are the only group not tolerated.
I will pray with all sincerity for your eyes to open and for you to walk in someone else’s shoes.
nirupama What is Jessica’s blog? I would like to read this.
Themomcreative.com, it is mostly about crafting and stuff.
Ctownsend This article was really special to me, because I felt alone. It was so nice to read someone who was able to put into words what I felt in my heart.
He is not blasting people for giving their opinion, he’s responding to these opinions and presenting his own. He disagrees with the opinions, as do I, but at no point and in no way is he saying “people should not give their opinion.”
JoeNCAI looked at A&E’s statement and it is nothing like you have stated. I would be interested in where you got this information because I believe it to not be true at all.
raybaby116 JoeNCA It is satire. But wouldn’t a company who believed in biblical principles also have a right to fire Phil for that as well? Why just a month ago, a Baptist Church refused to do business with the Robertson family because they had a deal with a wine company and the Baptists believe that drinking alcohol is a sin. Where was their outrage there?
Religion and speech are personal, and companies and people are individual actors with the right to associate as they please. Religion doesn’t trump A&E’s right to own and manage a business as they please. It doesn’t mean I agree with their decision, but they have a right to do it, just as Catholic schools fire gay teachers or even anyone who supports gay rights.
None of us have a right to a reality TV show, or else both your and my first amendment rights are being abridged!!
SoGaChick Boozleford the vulgarity is in the reduction of women and gay men to their sexual organs. The racism is Phil’s other quotes about how he didn’t see any black people suffering, and this his experience as “white trash” was the same as the black peoples.
The oppressed group is able to speak in a different way than the oppressor. That may not seem fair? But it is. For example, when a man in power says “women are dumb and shouldn’t work” that is offensive, and it is language that should not be tolerated. When a woman not in power says he is dumb, it is acceptable. Until we are all truly equal, we do need different rules. It is essentially that: “Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.” We can not hold everything to the same standards, because we do not come from the same place.
Sean Hayes has very likely said he prefers an anus to a vagina, and I wouldn’t like, quote this and celebrate it, but it wouldn’t have the same power to offend. Precisely because he is gay, and we have a different standard for what is acceptable from different people.
If I began to speak about the military, having never served, it would have a very different effect than the identical comment from someone who did serve. I believe this is appropriate and logical.
Christians can speak up for Phil Robertson. And they are. But they run the very real risk of sounding like men calling women dumb.
ReallisSweet Mary….you completely whiffed that one.
Are you kidding that he’s not blasting people for giving their opinion? Did you even read the article that consisted entirely of sarcasm? How is it not blasting people when he says and I quote they look “foolish, ridiculous, and ignorant.” He also thinks it’s ridiculous people got angry over this because there are bigger issues going on in the world. Are people not supposed to get angry unless it’s a major world issue?
So please help me understand how that is not blasting people’s opinions?
JoeNCAraybaby116That’s fine that it is a satire. However you didn’t portray it that way. You said it was a statement. I think your intention was to deceive people with your words.
As to Catholic organizations that fire gays or people that believe in gay rights, I think we would need examples not just a blanket statement like that. I could make a lot of those kind of statements as well but only the facts matter. Again, they have their religious beliefs and they have the right to have the employees that project and protect those beliefs as private organizations.
I think A&E was quite aware of the Robertson’s beliefs before they ever put them on TV. Also I have read where the Robertsons were told to eliminate the phrase “In Jesus Name” from the prayer at the end of the show. However “Duck Dynasty” is the biggest money maker they have so they were hesitant to , if you pardon the pun, “ruffle the feathers” of the Robertsons.
This whole issue is more the Gay media groups stirring up a tempest as they push more and more to have their behavior be accepted as more acceptable. Phil Robertson did talk about other behaviors other than gay relations but no one seems to be bothered too much about those. It’s only gay issues that receive any press. More and more, families are destroyed as people pursue their “passions” rather than commitment to their mates and their families.
Christians do have to be careful to remember that Gays are people and should be loved and not hated. Just as Jesus did to the mentally ill and the prostitutes and such in the New Testament. However at no point did He ever accept their sinful life styles. He always said,”Go and sin no more”. That is the same message we must tell anyone today as well. And it applies to ALL of us because we all have a sinful nature. But sin in any form or fashion is never to be accepted.
BrianHulett Our American liberties and the rights of Christians are in no way threatened by a company suspending someone for making comments that they consider harmful to their brand. When our phones are tapped and we are arrested for a comment that we have made in private, our liberties are threatened. Lets not cry wolf until we see the wolf.
Fascism and political correctness are so incredibly different. I mean, so incredibly different. Lets reserve our hyperbole.
You are completely correct though that we can impact our conversation about this issue. Lets keep it logical.
Great piece! And interesting how many comments from ranting Christians this kind of sensible analysis always gets, quoting the Bible, picking and choosing as they will which bits to make signs about (homosexuality) and which bits to ignore (getting stoned to death for wearing mixed fibres or women having sex when they’re menstruating).
Here’s another one for the Christian commenters, and on my 7-hour flight to Newark sat next to an Evangelical pastor he was entirely unable to answer this one, much to his consternation, puzzlement and – to his credit – genuine interest in the point. IF we accept for a moment that God created us all (I don’t) including we homosexuals (straight-acting, flaming, we come in many flavours) WHY did he choose us to face proportionately MORE struggle than our straight brethren, if that pastor was correct an entire lifetime of struggle, denied physical love in order to be acceptably celibate. WHY did He decide that around 3% of people should have to fight tooth and nail to conquer their base instincts (to be gay) whereas 97% of people just get to live by *their* natural instincts without a problem? It is a paradox the pastor couldn’t answer. I wonder if any of the ‘loving’ Christians on here, who would condemn me to the fires of Hell for being the way I am, have a good answer for me?
Ctownsend
“Because how we respond to events like this matters—ducking matters!”
“Let’s not be hypocrites on this.”
“But to us, the Church–those of us who lift up the values of Christ–how we respond to these kinds of situations, whether they are meaningless or of great importance, will be remembered long after the controversy is over.”
He is saying, think before you speak. Not don’t speak. Speak carefully. HOW we respond is the emphasis.
I’m not telling you to shut up, I’m just saying, its ridiculous how people are responding. It is. You can absolutely get angry but he doesn’t have to agree with your anger. He can respond to your anger by redirecting it.
He is asking you to have perspective. He is listening, and he is guiding.
nirupama Ha ha! Cool. Thank you.
jcherring101 LuanneBogart Oh man, jcherring101, I wish your post was way up at the top. This is really the heart of the issue. Well said.
Ctownsend You should read the whole post, not just 1/3rd in order to get the main point the author was trying to make. I think you got fixated on one small thing, that happened to frustrate you, and because of that you missed the main point that he was trying to get across.
He didn’t “blast” people for posting their opinions on the subject, but “blasted” them for being angry about the controversy. Obviously there are some out there that aren’t angry or have different opinions. I’m guessing the author was assuming that the readers would be able to understand this. If you have a “typical” facebook, typical meaning you’re in college or high school, you’d be able to see that the majority are angry about the situation.
When a large amount of people get angry over a small issue, I see it as a big issue. There is something seriously wrong with people getting pissed off over something so small. Sure, I think it’s important to take small issues seriously, but it’s also important to set priorities.
JoeNCA McRed So, are you suggesting that a Christian organization, particularly one bearing the responsibility of instructing children in Godly principles, should not have a right, let alone an obligation, to dismiss those living openly ungodly lifestyles? Homosexuality isn’t a “disagreement;” it’s an abomination.
That’s exactly my point. He said we need to choose wisely on how we respond to things. I personally do not think he chose to respond wisely by calling people names that he didn’t and doesn’t agree with.
I agree 100% that HOW we respond is so important and I do not agree with the way he responded to the people he disagreed with. I feel as though he contradicted his entire point by doing this. Which is sad because I think he could have had some really good points if he would have gone about it in a different and less sarcastic holier than thou way.
And that’s just my opinion.
Let’s all decide who will and who will not stand up for the gospel. Let’s all decide who is and who isn’t a good Christian. Let’s all judge. Let’s imagine we know other people’s relationship with God. Let’s do that. Especially to liberals. Let’s especially judge the souls of liberals.
Bearnecessity
Hi, Bearnecessity,
I’m not a guy who experiences attraction to people of the same sex, so I can’t say I really know what it’s like for you. I want to say that I appreciate your frustration, though, because I was extremely frustrated with things Christians believe for some different reasons about five years ago. Now, I am a Christian, and if you’ll let me, I’d like to try and respond to some of the things you asked in your post.
The Bible describes the world we live in now as one that’s become broken because of sin. At one time it wasn’t like that, but it’s the way things are today, and we all experience that brokenness in our own lives in a lot of different ways. The struggles we face in our lives are about as numerous and diverse as there are people to experience them. One of the ways we experience brokenness, though, is in our sexuality, and nobody gets away from that. You said that 97% of people just get to live by their natural instincts without a problem, but that’s not actually the way that God talks about it. Even though I’m only attracted to people of the opposite sex, in my life I’ve struggled with lusting after the wrong person as well as finding my own worth in how good I am at pleasing the other person during sex, or even just whether or not people of the opposite sex like me or think I’m a valuable person, etc. God is no more pleased with one way that falls outside of His intention for people than He is with another and, although He calls those things sin, He doesn’t love one person less than he does another — even people who’ve committed some pretty grievous things against people who didn’t want to experience those things.
So, it’s not really about what particular form of brokenness one person experiences, but about how they respond to God, because He doesn’t just love from afar, but He gets involved with our lives and once came to know our suffering personally. Jesus took it all on Himself and went to the cross to make a way for all of us who come to Him to be restored to what He actually did create us to be — one day. He knows we’ll still suffer and struggle now, although He begins His restorative work in our hearts and souls now, too. Bearnecessity, God’s not hoping to condemn you. He doesn’t want that for anyone — you might know about some of the places where He says that in the Bible. I won’t condemn you either, Bearnecessity. I want to call you my friend, and I really tried to write this, for my part, as a friend to you. I care about you, and it hurts me to think that you might have experienced or might be misled to think that Christians hate you or condemn you.
Your friend,
Chris
Boozleford Except that Phil didn’t circulate and ugly or ignorant views. In fact, his statements were presented very respectfully, albeit in disagreement, toward gays.
And I’m blasting it! Your opinion is blasted!
No, I’m just kidding. I see what you are saying, his tone upset you and you felt that the tone drowned out his message. It worked really well for me! I think that’s so interesting. I’m glad you were able to clarify this. I think it’s a striking distinction, how the tone of the piece was so divisive. Thank you.
I took your advice and read the entire article which only confirmed my opinion on this. He says we need to respond in “grace, humility, and mercy.” I do not feel as he has done any of the three by blasting people for either their opinion or how they stated their opinion. He is constantly throwing underhanded insults throughout his entire post. To me, that shows no grace, no mercy, and no humility which he is trying to preach.
Also, just because people have an opinion or are angry about this doesn’t mean their priorities are off. Are people not allowed to discuss things if they aren’t as important as other things?
Boozleford There was nothing even remotely hateful in Phil’s comments.
Boozleford You’re still missing it. Anti-sin is not anti-people. We have not only a right, but a responsibility to call a sin a sin.
BearnecessityI appreciate your response and I especially appreciate your question that was posed to that Pastor on the flight. As a pastor myself I have struggled with the “why’s”as to God and homosexuality. So many answers (from both sides) we’ve tried to give, born like that, abuse, etc. And I don’t want to get into it as that’s a long conversation I suspect we’ve both had. But I believe it boils down to this: It is what it is, and it is the same for all of us.
So what “is” it? Well, first off, let me say this. God LOVES the gay person. Unequivocally. He loves you. And he loves me in all of my screwed upness (hope I can invent a word) too.
I have come to believe that yes, sometimes there are things that happen in a person’s life that will drive us in a certain direction, but I also believe that there are many gay people who are indeed born that way (it pains may Christians to hear that I know). I struggled with this but it comes down to this. We are all born into a sinful fallen world where our bodies do not work as they should (physical disabilites, mental issues, even just things not working as God intended), and we pay the price. The same goes for the gay person. I do not doubt that people are absolutely born with that leaning, but here is where it starts to get really difficult, because even though a person may have that leaning, scripture is clear that homosexuality is wrong. That means yes as you mentioned, it may mean being celibate for life to not act upon our sinful impulses. So that just sets the stage, and I’m sorry if that seemed jumbled a little bit, I was trying to fit a lot into just a few paragraphs for times sake.
I said all that to answer the question you posed, and I think another that is implied even if unsaid.
1. You said, “WHY did he choose us to face proportionately MORE struggle than our straight brethren”. I can understand why you would say this, and I also understand the human tendency to look for someone else to blame. The real answer is God most certainly did not intend for you to face struggles. It was not his intention for any of us. We were created to experience life at it’s fullest and communion with God himself with nothing in the way. Jesus himself says that in John 10:10, “I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.” In him is life, not pain, struggle and tragedy.
So what (or who) is to blame then? Well, the answer none of us usually want to hear. We are. God made us to taste of all that can be. Essentially (simplified for times sake again), we decided to go our own way when Adam and Eve disobeyed and sin, and tragically even worse, death, entered the picture. This death was both physical and spiritual, but the bible says it also affected all creation including the bodies we were given. This is played out in so many ways. Including homosexual leanings. This usually does not go over well because most gay people do not want to be compared to others with things going on, but I liken it to myself. I am a recovered alcoholic who the Lord in all his grace and mercy rescued and has used to tell others of his love. I drank heavily (read daily) for four years and could not see how it could get better, but he can change us. It was my struggle (and something I daily give to Him), the same way homosexuality is yours.
That leads into my second point, which _Chris said so eloquently in a few words compared to my jumbled many lol. God loves you. His desire is that you experience fullness through him. There is not a relationship on earth that will bring fulfillment the way a relationship with him will because it is how we have been designed. I have been married to an amazingly joyful, happy, incredible woman for almost 16 years (who saw me through some very dark times I might add), two unbelievable children who I receive such joy in, but at the end of the day there is always something missing. Something that can only be found when I spend time with God and allow his presence to fill me. You said, ” an entire lifetime of struggle, denied physical love in order to be
acceptably celibate. WHY did He decide that around 3% of people should
have to fight tooth and nail to conquer their base instincts (to be gay)
whereas 97% of people just get to live by *their* natural instincts
without a problem?”
He has not decreed you do not get love. He is calling you, his beloved child, to experience the highest order of love. HIS love! And in the experience of that love and relationship the answer to your other query, the tooth and nail fight against your feelings, is found. As you learn to spend time with him, experience his love and walk (be strengthened by) his Spirit, he will slowly give you the ability to begin to resist and conquer over your feelings. You may make mistakes, that’s okay, we all do, you may struggle. But be assured he will be with you and he will see you through.
I will stop there. I apologize for the length, in fact if I don’t stop this might go on for years lol. I hope this did not come across in anyway condescending or glib, it was heartfelt and sincere. Also sincere is when I say I hope that you find the peace and love you are looking for. The only thing I can point you is to the One who made you, who understands you and who knows exactly what it is you need, because he showed me, a broken, screwed up guy that almost lost his marriage and his life, what it means to be loved and made whole.
Blessings 🙂
I’m glad you enjoyed the article. I do think his intentions were good. I just think it could have been much more powerful if presented differently.
Oh, how very droll, Mr. Turner. Now, please post the link to your article where you tell homosexuals to “calm the cluck down” about Chick-fil-A Chief Dan Cathy’s comments. The fact is, no Christians find the Duck patriarch’s situation to be morally equivalent to any of the serious world problems you mentioned. That is sheer strawmanning. Were homosexuals, as a group, accused of caring more about destroying Chick-fil-A than helping starving children abroad? Of course not. The issue is about trends affecting the fonts of power in this country, and no amount of sarcasm will change what we all know to be the case. First, the only thing that has been overblown here is the moral outrage expressed against Robertson, simply because he hold a very clear moral vision of what sex ought to be, a position held traditionally by every major culture in the history of mankind, and certainly every cultural element of our own. It’s not a free speech issue, but a democratic issue. That is, we ask what shall be the established value system of this country? For there is no such thing as a value-neutral space. Every such metaphysical belief about human morality represents a potential positive policy. If homosexuals say their way of life is righteous, or a right, it is up to them to prove it rationally against free opposition. Committing the fallacy of assuming the conclusion in the premises in order to elicit a dogmatic establishment via the courts won’t last against popular opposition. Second, a fair interpretation of Robertson could not but judge him to be exactly the opposite of the type of man he is accused of being here, accusations you implicitly support in your article. To love someone is not to lie to someone or keep them in the dark. Agree or disagree, but by Robertson’s very act of warning people what will happen to them if they do not change is an act of love, not hate. For Robertson believes if he does not warn people that they are wrong in the way they live, both he and the people he thereby loves would be lost for all eternity. If you cannot grasp that what he doing by saying these thing is fundamentally charitable, you are either pig-headed or utterly self-absorbed. In a humane society, it ought be possible to understand one another in context, appreciating the thought, even if you hate the gift, rather than use every manipulable phrase as political weapons!
Thank you for your post, Mr. Turner. As a Master’s student in sociology and contemporary ecclesiology as well as theological studies I am truly fascinated by events such as this. When some form of social controversy caused an anonymous onslaught of political and religious rhetoric, you responded with a poignant religious post about theological priorities. Ironically enough, this sentiment proved to simply be a catalyst for more passionate rhetoric regarding sexuality and race. It befuddles me to think that anyone would claim separation of the church from culture, when the ecclesial community in America is perhaps the largest collective influenced by the social constructions around them. The bottom line is that an upper class celebrity recently found himself out of work because of offensive public rhetoric that he was responsible for. The response to that, however, which prompted your critique to begin with, was a multiplicity of discourse that can be seen as even more offensive than what the reality star had to say in the first place. Though I can spend time commenting on the theological and political consequences of the original statement, I do believe the argument is redundant. The discussion will inadvertently yield itself to a binary system of socio-political labels where liberals support the production company for its protection of human values and conservatives claim martyrdom for being up-ended.
Instead, I think the important thing to touch on is a reiteration of what your original post said; that is, the social priority that the ecclesial community has to the world around them. Unfortunately for religious communities, contemporary sociology deems the institution entirely reliant on social constructs in order to survive. Though the prominent secularization theories established by Berger and Shiner in the 1960’s failed to hold ground in the postmodern age, the models still shape the way in which religious persons identify in collective society. Essentially, despite the institution’s failures, collective religion still exists and is stronger than ever. This model is civil religion, and is shared almost universally by Christians and non-Christians alike. We share the same tenets dictated to us by American culture, share the same religious symbols and creed, and pledge allegiance to the same flag. That being said, we are all mutually susceptible to the idolatry of culture, despite our metaphysical faith claims. Our time and attention is universally focused on the “twerking” saints on MTV, the “socialist” clergy providing us a sermon, and of course, the reality star martyrs, who lose employment that they don’t actually require because of an expression of public bigotry. In essence, Christianity has entirely become a social construct of the larger, universal model of civil religion. There is no separation of church from culture whatsoever, because we, as individuals in a postmodern age, are defined and validated by the accomplishments of the people we watch. Ironically enough, the church engages in culture war consistently, but is subsequently defined by the culture it wars against. For my readers, take a moment and reflect on every sermon, blog post, Facebook update, etc. that was been utilized as a catalyst for a Sunday morning sermon or bible study. What Mr. Turner is saying and fighting for, I believe, is a recantation of this value sans an internal need to voice one’s own opinion anonymously. Unfortunately, if this fantasy became reality, Mr. Turner would be out of a job, but I do believe it is a necessary requirement for the validation of a true faith. History does indeed prove that the institution grows out of defiance and disregard of the surrounding social trends, not their worship.
Though it may be a stretch, I did want to provide a basic commentary on what I ascertained to be your central claim. Thank you, Mr. Turner for your thoughtful words, and I do apologize on behalf of those who have belittled or ridiculed you because of them on this thread. I hope that I have expressed myself with humility and with respect.
Blessings,Joel – MTS Candidate at Boston University School of Theology; Sociology and Contemporary Christian Culture.
RobDrury Boozleford I’m not missing anything. It is condescending to say that I am missing something. You have absolutely no idea what my soul comprehends or what my mind understands.
If you feel it is your responsibility call a sin a sin, call sins sins. I feel it is my responsibility to serve the underprivileged, to serve by example, to serve God, and to yearn to be closer to God. That is my spiritual path.
And…anti-sin is anti-people. All people are sinners. Some sin by lust, some by wrath. Hating sin selectively and deciding that you know the nature of sin more than others is very dangerous territory.
RobDrury Boozleford Hate can take many different forms. I found it hateful to say that he had a deeper understanding of the black experience than the black people. I found it hateful to say that homosexuality is akin to bestiality. I found it hateful to say that the gay experience can be reduced to anuses and vaginas, and to deny the very real experience that many gay folk have in falling in love as deeply and profoundly as heterosexuals.
You’re forgetting that one very important comment he made after all of that “however I would never treat someone with disrespect because they are different than me. We were all created by the Almighty, and like him I love all of humanity.” Everyone looks strictly at what they want to see and not everything that is there as a whole. I believe its important to include the fact that he said that.
RobDrury Boozleford Let’s also remember that A&E is not the government and is not a church.
First you tell us from your own worldview why some people have pedophilic impulses, murderous impulses, cannibalistic impulses, lying impulses, thieving impulses, cheating impulses, anger issues, violent tendencies, an instinct for causing trouble, etc. Why are there deformed and crippled people? You don’t think they feel a sexual attraction to people that is utterly improbable to fulfill? What about people who want to be anything they cannot ever be? Do you think they ever get any such fulfillment in this life? Do all of them obsess over their limitations? Only some, not others? Can’t people learn to accept their problems, once they think they are problems? Obviously some do, others don’t. Some people are totally convinced that they should have their limbs amputated. Shouldn’t someone try to stop them? I wouldn’t call that a paradox, really. Christians don’t say you’ll be judged for being the way you are, but for accepting what you are, if it’s wrong, as in the above (they would say graver) examples. To turn the tables on you, it would seem that you are really saying that Christians who think the practice of homosexuality is wrong ought to change themselves to conform to your own vision of moral truth. Indeed, you might say, if you believed in it, that these cruel Christians will be condemned to the fires of Hell for being the way they are (anti-homosexual). And, indeed, you would no doubt regard yourself as a loving person for trying to enlighten them as to the righteousness of homosexual love, and the immorality of opposing it.
RobDrury Boozleford They were not presented respectfully, and that is the point. It is very ugly and disrespectful to say that a loving relationship between consenting adults is the equivalent to abusing an animal.
KelsieReneeVincentVaughn Even more, this wasn’t just an apologetic line tacked on the end of his statements; it was the very essence of his entire remarks.
Hollywood liberals preach tolerance, but they are the most intolerant people I know. ~Kevin Sorbo
RobDrury Boozleford Further, the ugly and ignorant views that I am actually referring to are the ugly and ignorant views being circulated by self-righteous and small minded folk who call themselves Christians.
KelsieReneeVincentVaughn I had not seen that comment, and its interesting that it is being left out. However, I also find it interesting that the comments about the black experience are being left out.
Boozleford RobDrury I don’t think he claimed to have any particular understanding of the “black experience.” He simply stated that it was his experience that while others considered them to be downtrodden, most black cotton workers appeared to be very happy. Homosexuality is most certainly akin to bestiality, as is any sexual perversion. Finally, to relegate “love” to a mere emotional experience tells me that you have little understanding of the term. There is no love involved in a homosexual relationship.
Boozleford RobDrury We are not merely allowed, but COMMANDED by God to hate sin.
Boozleford RobDrury We aren’t talking about loving relationships; we’re talking about perverted lustful relationships. Please don’t dignify them as anything more.
RobDrury Boozleford Ah. I see. Well, we will not be able to see eye to eye. I am sorry I engaged, and hope that you are at peace with a point of view that makes me feel very sad for you.
I would appreciate it if you would refrain from saying what I do or do not understand. Even the lowest amongst us understand love when we see it, and to try to insult me by saying I have little understanding of love (as a daughter, sister, wife, and mother) is perhaps the most insane and bizarre thing to fling.
Boozleford RobDrury Love has little if anything to do with emotions. Love can only be attributed to those relationships that exist in concert with the God who created and is love. There is no love in an ungodly relationship. Persons who understand love are relatively very few.
RobDrury Boozleford Okay, sure. We can hate sin and capitalize words for emphasis. But only hating certain sins and turning a blind eye to others is poor practice, and to hate sins of lust more than other sins is disingenuous, hypocritical, and self-righteous.
I don’t think this is the right blog for you, Rob Drury. I do wish you had acknowledged the condescension you displayed towards me, and apologized.
RobDrury Boozleford What an interesting test of character you are for me. What a bizarre thing for you to say. God bless.
Boozleford RobDrury I’m glad to see we’ve found common ground. I judge no one, as I find my sin no more palatable than any others; but neither will I dignify sin as acceptable. God hates it, I hate it, and anyone calling themselves Christian should hate it.
If loving the sinner while hating the sin is not what this blog is about, perhaps it’s not the right one for me. While it is important how the message is presented, it is not at all loving to pretend that sin is acceptable. I believe that Phil delivered his message precisely as it should have been. A&E has shown themselves to be the intolerant ones here.
Boozleford RobDrury I guess it can be said that anything uncompromisingly consistent with Godly principles is bizarre to the world. You could not have paid me a higher complement. I thank you.
JaneScroggins
Awful lot of throat-cramming and tea-bagging in your response if you ask me…
KelsieReneeVincentVaughn it was exactly an apologetic tactic. you can’t say “all these people are going to hell” and then say “but I love everyone” as if that makes the previous hate OK. If you Christians can’t think with an ounce of logic to understand how wrong that is, then I guess all you backwards Jesus hating religious jerks deserve each other.
_Chris Bearnecessity God doesn’t create people wired genetically or biologically a certain way and then call them sinners and/or broken. God loves Bearnecessity JUST the way he is. It’s not misleading to think that Christians condemn gay people. They do it every day and there are plenty of suicides to show just how Christians make LGBT feel. The ONLY reason our society does not accept LGBTs for who they are is because of religion. You are not his friend, Chris. Because if you were, you’d love and accept Bearnecessity JUST like he is and not sit there and use more diplomatic, less hateful language to tell him he’s broken.
BeckyMurphyKelsieReneeVincentVaughn
“Wow, Becky. I don’t give a darn about any of this, but what you just said is some serious hate speech.
Joel_Birch Not to offend Joel, but you sound like a masters student. I enjoyed reading your response but the plethora of overly thought out wording and “fancy” words made it a boring read and most people probably didn’t make it through even though you made some good points that I’m sure many people missed out on because of “tired head.” I went through that phase as well after obtaining my doctorate but in reality… make it simple, make a point, make your exit…
It was well written though, don’t get me wrong 🙂
DrLN BeckyMurphy KelsieReneeVincentVaughn You are welcome to feel that way. I’m fed up with justifying the type of hatred that has actually caused people to commit suicide over not feeling loved by anyone simply because they are gay. I guarantee you my anger and hate is NOTHING compared to the despair some LGBT people feel. Get over yourself.
Come on, Matthew, this isn’t exactly building bridges, is it? I agree with your first point on free speech and part of the second. But my news feed was also ablaze yesterday with people upset over the defrocking of Frank Schaefer, the UM pastor who officiated a same-sex marriage, and I don’t hear anyone from the left telling them they should shut up and focus on Sudan.
To your third point, the Golden Rule is not “Thou shall not offend,” though the watching world wouldn’t know this by reading the critiques of those critiquing. I’ve seen some comments on FB regarding your article here and people are clearly offended by it. That doesn’t mean I think you should not say what you say, nor a reason for you to try and silence those you disagree with.
As for churches welcoming Phil or anyone else, I think that’s unfounded and bordering on judging the motives and hearts of millions you can’t possibly know. Phil, and anyone else (regardless of their race, gender, sexual preference, etc), would be welcome in my church here in TN, and I know this is true of all my colleagues’ churches.
As for the 5th and last point, and really all of them together, is it really fair to try to referee or silence people voicing their beliefs just because they don’t line up with your own? If you agreed with Phil (and the majority of Christians in the world) regarding same-sex marriage would you have written this? Many would argue that those who are protesting Frank Schaefer’s defrocking are making the church look foolish to the world, that it offends many, and that it’s hate-filled and not very loving towards those who uphold traditional beliefs and values. Would this post be aimed equally towards them, too?
There are some decent points made here. The line “It doesn’t matter that Phil didn’t mean it that way” concerns me though. If you are going to argue that way then the Bible should be banned because it doesn’t matter that we are called to repentance by a loving God. That call to repentance is offensive.
DrLN Joel_Birch
Dr.,
I appreciate your comments and welcome critique. The important thing I was trying to do was to explain the original claim of the article. The article was not centered around whether or not homosexuality was morally acceptable, but rather focused on the priorities of the respondents to the actor/reality star’s claim.
That being said, I think it is important for people to realize the effects of a church defined by their social surroundings, instead of simply vomiting out ignorant rhetoric concerning the morality of a millionaire redneck who became famous for making bird sounds. Throughout the multiplicity of responses showcased here, evangelical Christians rebuking MPT have only proven his point further.
Also, while I am not at all offended, I am truly saddened that an enlightened, and educated response from an observer that takes care of his tongue, and ensures that he thinks before he speaks/types is shrugged off by many as “fancy” or “boring.” If Christians did not exude the ignorance that they unfortunately show in a public setting, maybe they would get a better rap. That is just my humble opinion, however.
Boozleford That was actually a response to your comment specifically. It wasn’t limited to any one comment, it says “anit-gay views”, meaning it encompasses all people that do not support a gay lifestyle. If you had said “SOME people with anti-gay views also have anti-people views” that would have been different. And I’m not even saying that Phil Roberson is one of them.
KelsieReneeVincentVaughn He treated an entire group with disrespect in his interview, though…why is this so hard for you to see?
RobDrury Boozleford
“There is no love involved in a homosexual relationship.”
I take it then you have been involved in a homosexual relationship yourself and can therefore speak from firsthand knowledge of this?
“Most black cotton workers appeared to be very happy.”
Yes, well, if I was going to likely be lynched for expressing any displeasure I’d actually look happy too. Funny how slavery and oppression can work! He’s being criticized for this because he’s using it to show that black people were happier without civil rights which he equates to entitlements.
BeckyMurphyDrLNKelsieReneeVincentVaughn I’m not justifying anything. But painting an entire group with one brush while replacing one type of hate for another does not justify your response. One person’s religious opinion does not speak for an entire group. I believe the majority of Christians are not “backwards Jesus hating religious jerks” but are instead caring, compassionate and loving people that want happiness for everyone regardless of their orientation.
BeckyMurphy _Chris Bearnecessity “God doesn’t create people wired genetically or biologically a certain way and then call them sinners and/or broken. God loves Bearnecessity JUST the way he is.”
That will most definitely preach. Keep spreading the good news: that God loves you just the way you are.
Joel_BirchDrLN Good point. I was just speaking from experience. Like I said, you are well spoken and provided an educated, metered response to the article.
Johann Popper Equating homosexuality with pedophilia, murder or cannibalism is entirely inappropriate. It’s comments like this which cause a staggering amount of damage to young LGBT people.
You need to stop.
Boozleford jcherring101 LuanneBogart John 8: 1-11 is another favorite part of the Bible. Some think that when he began writing on the sand, he was writing the names of people holding stones and the sins they had committed.
Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”
“No one, sir,” she said.
“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
One more thought regarding whether or not Phil would be welcome in the churches of those defending him. As I read through some of these comments and see some of the hateful rhetoric aimed towards Phil by the left, I have to wonder if Phil would be welcome even on this blog, let alone the churches represented here. If Phil were to walk into this conversation and share his beliefs, how well would you all welcome him? With open, loving, tolerant arms? I highly doubt that.
AndrewImlay You might not ever read this, but as a Christian: you’re my brother already. And your husband. Don’t change anything.
jacquealantern “We have become a culture that is becoming intolerant of intolerance. Definition of hypocrisy?”
Of course not. Don’t be ridiculous. Intolerance toward people who are born different from you — whether that be sexual orientation, race, gender, sex, physical abilities, whatever — harms actual people. It hurts them. The words spoken by those who are intolerant hurt them, and the actions taken by those who are intolerant hurt them. LGBT teens all across this country are killing themselves at rates that are much higher than average. This intolerance is literally killing people.
Now, imagine that you have two children. One is picking on the other: calling him names, shoving him, punching and kicking him. In that instance, putting the aggressor in time out isn’t being intolerant, it’s not doing damage to that child. It’s stopping him from doing damage to another. “Intolerance toward intolerance” is the same thing: the goal is to stop people from doing real harm to other people who don’t have the capacity to defend themselves. As Christians, we are called to *always* side with that helpless child who is being hurt. That was the core of Jesus’s message: that those who are being beaten by others more powerful than them are loved by Him completely and that if anyone wants to follow Him, they *too* must love those who are oppressed completely.
Intolerance of those who are oppressed is the opposite of love.
I
think one of the points being missed is yes he is a reality star but
he/and their family is/are doing huge things for the Kingdom of God by
standing up for their beliefs. They are currently touching more lives
than any other tv program/show out there I would presume. So what’s more
uplifting to God, recognizing death or recognizing a man bringing
people to salvation so we don’t have to worry about death.
I agree that there are great problems in the world and this one is minor to others but still this is not just about Phil it is about the Church of America and their unwillingness to stand for the things that are right and should be stated. I don’t agree with your condescending attitude toward Phil and his family and you are passing judgment in the same way that you are trying to say we are. There is not a person that can care for all the problems of the world, but we can care for those that are right in front of our faces. God lays on the heart of people different things to lift up and stand for. I most definitely don’t like that children are hunger and dying under the hand of people that have no heart and I do what I can, but understand this nation is crumbling under its own unwillingness to stand for the truth of the word. We compromise continually for the sake of not hurting others, but the word is strong to change the heart of any that will allow. Thank you for your opinion and it is a good one, but I think you are just as narrow as you say we are. Mike
CalebMagistroKelsieReneeVincentVaughn And she did likewise in her response.
Uh – well . . . if you let fascism take over America uncontested then the Sudan WILL be the least of your worries. A&E’s bullying is going to cost them the only successful endeavor they have had.
CalebMagistro KelsieReneeVincentVaughn How did he disrespect an entire group by simply stating that he doesn’t see the attraction, and then calling homosexual acts a sin (which is what the Bible teaches)? The definition of tolerance and disrespect has certainly morphed over the years in to something completely different than what it actually means.
ChadHoltz Actually there is a liberal church in North Carolina that has already invited Phil Robertson into their congregation to open a dialogue with him.
By the way, I don’t believe God would not like you judging an entire group of people based on the actions of a few. And thanks for missing the entire point of the article.
BeckyMurphy _Chris Bearnecessity God doesn’t love a person for what they do…if that were the case, none of us have a chance at salvation. God loves us for who we can be…through Jesus Christ. That’s it. So, yes…he will accept you where you are, but He never leaves you there. The Bible speaks of us going through trials and temptations as a form of refinement…much like gold through fire…to come out pure and holy in His sight. So I have to disagree with you that He loves us the way we are.
RobDrury Yes, just look what they did to the Dixie Chicks. Oh wait….
DrLN BeckyMurphy KelsieReneeVincentVaughn Yes, but no Christian ever killed themselves because they were bullied by gay people.
Johann Popper “Agree or disagree, but by Robertson’s very act of warning people what will happen to them if they do not change is an act of love, not hate. For Robertson believes if he does not warn people that they are wrong in the way they live, both he and the people he thereby loves would be lost for all eternity. If you cannot grasp that what he doing by saying these thing is fundamentally charitable, you are either pig-headed or utterly self-absorbed.”
That is the most absolutely insane thing I have ever read. I sincerely hope you are not in a position in which you influence or lead others.
BradBates CalebMagistro KelsieReneeVincentVaughn It completely lacks any empathy. I don’t understand why some people like certain foods. I don’t say, oh, they’re going to burn in hell for all eternity for it, and then say but I still love them for it and it is merely “the truth”. Sure he might not have seen blacks mention suffering or “singing the blues”, but doesn’t a simple act of empathy say, gosh, perhaps they didn’t have the same opportunities as him? If my boss is an a–hole, do I have to go around telling it, even if it is “the truth”?
Johann Popper Actually gay groups have been immensely instrumental in coming to the aid of LGBT people who are being attacked and killed in Russia for their draconian laws, all while also fighting for their rights here. So the idea that they’re not doing both is absurd.
JaneScroggins You (Christians) hated us (gays) long before we ever hated you. Hate begets hate. I, personally, won’t ever apologize for fighting back.
BradBates BeckyMurphy _Chris Bearnecessity “Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.”
Love is never a sin. There are 6 references to acts of homosexuality. There are 362 references to acts of heterosexuality. There are HUNDREDS of references to aiding the “least of these”. The idea that people should spend 99% of their time on issues that affect such an incredibly tiny part of His word is beyond ridiculous.
Agree to disagree on this issue and move on to the 99.99% of the stuff we agree on, not the 0.01% we don’t.
JoeNCA Johann Popper That’s not exactly the same thing. The author compared not caring for the 500 random people killed in Sudan because we were too busy caring about a Christian brother getting beat up. Your comment makes it sound like LGBT people only help LGBT people…whether at home…or abroad. The church has been instrumental in feeding the hungry, clothing and sheltering the homeless, taking in orphans, and caring for widows…no matter their race, religion, or nationality. So…not really a comparison.
JoeNCA BradBates BeckyMurphy _Chris Bearnecessity The issue is that in our nation, and in this world…love has been redefined. Love w/o truth isn’t love…and truth w/o love isn’t love. Love now means full acceptance and affirmation for my behavior and lifestyle.
If, in America, the biggest issue we faced was hunger, homelessness, etc…then maybe more time would be spent there (but let’s not muddy the waters…because there is a GREAT deal of time spent there). The fact is…homosexuality is a MAJOR concern in the American culture right now. It is not wrong for the church to address this head on. The issue is, people like you, and like the author, get up at arms against the church for saying anything at any time…no matter how small or large the confrontation, and always say things like “love others”…Agreed…love others…but part of loving others is telling the truth.
This article is an excellent lesson on the fallacy of relative privation.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_relative_privation
BradBates JoeNCA Johann Popper “The church has been instrumental in feeding the hungry, clothing and sheltering the homeless, taking in orphans, and caring for widows…no matter their race, religion, or nationality.”
Not recently, it hasn’t. Recently, the impression many people get about “the church” is that it cares more about segregating and ostracizing people who don’t look, act, speak, and believe exactly the way we do. True or not, that’s the impression we (I can say ‘we’ speaking as a member of “the church”) are leaving with people.
Very pharisaical, don’t you think?
GomezAl JaneScroggins You (you) are certainly making a blanket statement about lots of people (Christians) based on a small number of Christians. Fact is MOST Christians do not hate homosexuals. Christians who truly follow the word, have an understanding of what God deems an appropriate relationship both sexually and emotionally. Most Christians speak out of a concern and regard to this understanding.
I personally am a Christian and have numerous gay friends who all know that I believe the Biblical understanding of sex and sexuality is between the confines of marriage and a man and a woman. None of them would say I was hateful towards them. Disagree? Yes. But hateful? No. In fact, I’ve personally spoken with them when they have been through breakups, etc.
If we are truly honest here, many on both sides of the argument scream for tolerance while not extending the same. But not all. I’m sorry you’ve been mistreated by some Christians. It shouldn’t happen…but it does…and there’s no excuse for it. I hope you find a better experience amongst believers in days to come.
This is a great article and one that should be read by ALL Christians. Unfortunately, most of the ones who’ve commented on it so far (that I’ve seen) have missed your whole point. Alas, we will continue to look foolish.
I’ve got to remember my own rule: never read comments!
SansNomen BradBates JoeNCA Johann Popper So you’re basing your assumption that the church isn’t taking care of the needs of others because of an impression, that is actually given to you largely due to a liberal media who wants to marginalize and segregate out the Christians for a belief we’ve always held, and only in the last 50 years has become a problem in this nation.
How is it pharisaical to continue to hold to beliefs that one has always held to, while others try to marginalize and demonize you? Wow…twisted logic my friend.
Breazeweaze I knew there was a word for it. Thanks for finding it 🙂
BeckyMurphy Becky Phil didn’t say all these people are going to hell. He was quoting a passage out of the Bible. First Corinthians 6:9-11 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Granted, he loosely quoted it, but then he said that he loves all people because they were created by the Almighty. That doesn’t sound intolerant. There is a message of warning there but then also a message of hope and acceptance that exists for all people that accept that gift of Christ.
I made a comment on facebook about the 500 killed, and how i have only heard DD on the news. It turned into a “christians get judged all the time for opening their mouths and its not fair. All I could think about was..”Fair??? Did you see 500 people were just killed and you bring DD and fair into this?” Thanks for this article. I like DD. It is entertaining. Do i base my faith off of it??? Maybe not. Do i like what Phil said. Absolutly not. Will my father lecture me on it for the entire christmas break most likely.
All I can think about is those poor families of the 500 right now. I dont really like Ducks anyway, taste muddy.
Wow. This is a brutal read. Bit of advice: “[A]lways prefer the succinct to the circumlocution.” To be an effective communicator, you need to change your writing style. To the uneducated, your post sounds intelligent, if not also inaccessible. To the educated, your word choice is forced and ridiculous and undercuts your credibility. Check out the books below; they are amazing.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Elements-Style-Fourth-Edition/dp/020530902X
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0767903099/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?qid=1387550941&sr=8-2&pi=SY200_QL40
I think you’re just nuts. (:
Wooot!! ^^ you are awesome. (:
I believe in God. And I don’t stand behind what he said. I think its a sin yeah. But judgeing is a sin also and with that same hand a lot of people will ” go to hell ” as they say. Its all just so dumb. . Believe it.
Hahaha!! No. You are so wrong! Its kinda funny how wrong you are.
Haha. That is funny wrong. Lol. XD
Phil is the church! I agree with some of this however, you are forgetting he is a christian and the bible is clear about standing with our brothers and sisters. In this situation, he certainly could have said it better – no arguing but that doesn’t make the core of what he was saying wrong. They are different in their thinking and exposure to being more “sensitive” to those around us however, I wonder if we are getting too comfortable trying to not offend that we are missing the opportunity to display the love of Christ – to love someone is to tell them the truth in love – so how you say it does matter but saying it is still important.
JoeNCA RobDrury It wasn’t castigation; merely an observation. And it wasn’t my observation; it was a quote from a member of the Hollywood establishment who realizes that it is almost universally true. We are not talking about the actions of a few; we are talking about, relatively speaking, almost everyone in the entertainment industry. I might agree with your sentiment, except that I have ties to the industry and have yet to meet anyone in it espousing Christian views without paying dearly for it. Of course, I realize that God’s Word promises us that this will be the case, but it’s still not right.
I am wonder how accurate an account “Noah” is, and how much resistance the creators faced to get it produced. The “story” of Noah is not a “story;” it is an historical event.
NathanKnight wow, we really have to stoop to a really base level to reach people for Jesus Christ these days? No thank you
JoeNCA BradBates BeckyMurphy _Chris Bearnecessity
Love is, in fact, never a sin; however, nothing in a homosexual relationship constitutes love.
Turner, check your theology.
“some people were deeply offended by his comments”
Of course, the bible isn’t given to us for feel good stuff. It is meant to be a scandal on humanity. This watered down, “feel good” junk thats being preached across our pulpits, that is infecting America is why so many are leaving the church.
Furthermore, Jesus said, YOU WILL BE PERSECUTED for my name’s sake.
” http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/18/world/africa/south-sudan-violence/”
Did you know that Millions of children in America are murdered for convenience? But because you’re afraid to be “offensive” you wont defend the defenseless.
My suggestion, grow a spine and read the scripture this time.
notmycircus RobDrury Boozleford
“…can therefore speak from firsthand knowledge of this?”
I don’t need to have been involved in a homosexual relationship to realize this. Love is not an emotion; it is defined only by the God who created, and in fact is, love. Anything that departs from His definition of love is not love at all.
unrealray if you don’t judge what is right and wrong, how can you know to be involved with it or not? How could you save your family, friends? As we all belong to the family of God we do need to look out for each other. If you see someone going to fall or jump off a cliff would you not stop them because you know the consequences?
Boozleford JaneScroggins Just out of curiosity, do you think homosexuals should repent? I know the kind of answer you’ll give, and on that you should really think.
westking Moron. There is no god. Get over your pathetic selves. your precious “word” is nothing but one contradiction after another! I could go on and on with examples and facts that prove your beliefs are misguided, but even with facts right in front of you, you can’t see! Morons.
unrealray Actually, judging is a very biblical concept. We are commanded to do so in fact. What we are not commanded to do, or able to do, is condemn. That is not our place. We can judge without condemnation. There’s a difference.
recoveringyouthpastor The argument is invalid. “You cant complain about DD because people died another continent away” Seriously? This is a cheap excuse the muzzle the persecuted church by spineless Christians.
Dont complain when your children become corrupted by a society you’re become afraid of.
mckenzieja You make a great point about abortion. Talk about the white elephant in the room that Churches are doing a bad job of speaking against. We’re talking nearly 60 million babies since 1973 have been murdered and no one bats an eye. It’s appalling. I’m sure Turner here would tell people who go out and plead with girls to choose adoption or to keep the child are filed with hate and should keep their mouths shut on that issue as well. But hey…500….60 million…who’s counting…right?
BeckyMurphy DrLN KelsieReneeVincentVaughn No; get over yourself. There is nothing hateful in speaking the truth, and that’s what Phil did. Are all homosexuals going to hell? Of course not; homosexuality is a sin like any other, and there are, likely few, true Christians who practice it. It is, however, only logical that most of them do not espouse Christ, and are in fact going to hell if they don’t repent. Why is it anything but absolutely loving to warn them of the consequences of their lifestyle?
BeckyMurphy
Becky, saying “all these people are going to hell” and then saying “but I love everyone” is kind of exactly what God did. Well that’s part of the story, anyway. The expanded view goes a bit more like this:
I love all these people.
These people all did things that have spiritually separated them from me.
“All these people are going to hell”.
“But I love everyone”.
I’m going to go on a suicide rescue mission to save every one of these people that I love.
I have come that they may all have life; through my life, death, and resurrection, their previous wrongs are paid for, and “all these people” who I love now have grace and salvation.
For everyone, for anyone, who chooses to love and follow me again, salvation is here and free because I love you.
That’s pretty much the deal from God’s standpoint, in a nutshell. Now, we live in a world where everyone is scattered across varying levels of accepting that statement above and trying to live in a way that reflects their acceptance. Those varying levels include people who outright ignore or forcibly reject those statements above, as well. Here’s where trouble crops up. Jesus wanted us to make sure that everyone knows about his love and the free gift of grace and salvation. Love was the key component, as well; He went so far as to say that His followers would be recognized by their love. Through the apostle Paul’s writings, God further clarified that out of the big three churchy words of faith, hope, and love … LOVE was the most important. Why love? Well because His entire story and purpose toward us was completely motivated by love. Re-read the statements above and you might notice that it is motivated by love.
God is love. Not fakey infatuation type of love. Not flattering, pandering, false love that tries to use you to get something from you. Real love. The kind of love that doesn’t care how fat you are, what you look like, whether you have a disability, whether you broke a favorite lamp or dish in the house or broke the TV or whatever else. Love doesn’t care. Love just loves. More Christians need to tell the story of love, and we need to do it through real and genuine love that looks more like the love of Christ. Does that mean that we silence the truth when there are times that it needs to be spoken? No, it doesn’t. But how we speak the truth needs to be entirely backed by love. Some may still be offended, but we should go out of our way to love them just the same. Jesus offended many with his teachings, healings, miracles, and generally Sabbath Rebel way of life, but He still went out of His way to love the offended. He even died for them, entirely out of love. From His own mouth as He was dying, He begged for the forgiveness of the crowds mocking, beating, killing Him. Try that love on for size.
EricBoersma Johann Popper Wrong. Equating homosexuality with sin is absolutely accurate and appropriate. The fact that it is sexual sin makes it particularly appropriate that it be lumped with other sexual perversion.
mckenziejamckenzieja you are exactly why people turn away from the church. The only corruption that parents should be afraid of is one that teaches them that “taking up the cross” means condemning others. That’s more poisonous than any “feel good junk,” and the farthest thing from Christ-like discipleship.
I’m not sure where you are coming from on this blog but it sounds like liberal indoctrination spewing from your mouth. Unfortunately, I am hearing a lot of this coming from young peoples minds today. I truly saddens me. Even as I hear it from my own children. What did I teach them?? I was sure it was right from wrong. This WAS and still IS about FREEDOM of SPEACH in the USA!! That is what everyone is up in arms about. When a christian SPEAKS the TRUTH we get bashed, even from people like YOU. PLEASE, anyone who agrees with this blog and is a CHRISTIAN, please listen to this podcast. It’s from Josh McDowell, and very godly man who has been teach God’s truth his whole life. http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/family-talk/custom-player/tolerating-the-intolerable-ii-379666.html
Thank-you for saying what I have felt about this in such a better way. The author is siding with those who hate truth and call it hate speech. It is evident that the hate starts when someone is offended. Telling the truth is hard, but it is necessary and to deny that is parallel to the parent who doesn’t spank their child, they “hate” them (read the Bible). Christians will go on speaking the truth, its not convenient, we will be persecuted, but we can’t win over desperate homosexuals, many who will repent, by becoming friends with the world, that would make us enemies of God.
RobDrury EricBoersma Johann Popper To be fair….so is divorce, adultery, and other things that heterosexuals partake in. FYI – I TOTALLY agree that it is a sexual immorality, but we as Christians often overemphasize one sexual immorality over the other. That said, I know that homosexuality is a big one in today’s culture and demands a biblical worldview. So i’m not arguing in favor of it…But I do think (myself included) that we often forget that divorce and adultery are also sexual sins.
Not busting your chops by the way 🙂 I promise!
dawnharnishFirst, the freedom of SPEECH doctrine only applies to the government. If it’s not a governmental entity limiting your speech (as it is here) then your point is invalid. If it IS a governmental entity limiting speech then it cannot be a substantial burden unless the government can establish that the burden is the least
restrictive means of furthering a compelling governmental interest
such as public health or safety. So, you might want to give up that point because it makes you look ignorant.
Second, no Christians are being bashed. A&E suspended him, not fired, suspended. And I’m sure that if the suspension letter that came down to him said “You are hereby on leave because you are Christian” you would have been able to quote it about 2 seconds after he got the letter.
And third, you taught your children well for them to be able to recognize that you are wrong. Kudos on that.
BeckyMurphy _Chris Bearnecessity
Hi, Becky,
You’re right that there are Christians who have condemned gay people. The point I was making at the end of my post was not that it hasn’t happened, but that it’s very wrong and not the way things ought to be. I don’t know what to say about the suicides you mentioned — it may well be that a lot of them are caused by the condemnation people who have attraction to the same sex suffer, but again, that condemnation is evil. I also said that God does love Bearnecessity and doesn’t require that any person deal with their own brokenness before they can come to Him, because He knows it’s entirely unreasonable and impossible to expect.
I think you’re saying, though, that even the way that I’ve described God’s love for Bearnecessity, and the care that I have for Bearnecessity as a result, is nevertheless hateful because you think I am still not accepting Bearnecessity and LGBTs for who they are, and therefore I’m not Bearnecessity’s friend. In other words, you think I’m condemning the condemnation LGBTs suffer while at the same time condemning them? Did I understand you correctly?
Becky, I think we hold different definitions of what it means to love and what it means to condemn, and maybe that’s why you say that I’m not Bearnecessity’s friend. There are countless people in this world who experience all kinds of brokenness, and no doubt there are places of brokenness you and I would both agree are not good, but wherever a person is, God loves that person and is ready and willing to embrace them at this very moment, and so I am, too. God came alongside me when I shattered my life some years ago and didn’t wait for me to fix everything. He expects the same love from all of us for everyone. You can accept a situation that isn’t the way it ought to be and you can love even when someone isn’t able or is unwilling to love back. That’s the kind of love and acceptance that goes the distance — it embraces all people, no matter how deeply you may disagree with them and no matter how deeply committed they are even to your own destruction. And it embraces those people without abandoning them to where they are in life. I know you don’t think that same-sex attraction is one those forms of brokenness. I get that. But it’s really not a form of brokenness I have any desire to isolate from the rest by placing special emphasis on it. We’re all broken. The good news is that God is a good Dad who will embrace us no matter where we are, but He won’t leave us there forever, either.
We valued that in our parents growing up, if they cared about us and weren’t absent. They raised us with an idea in mind of what was best for us. For example, a dad or mom who sees that their kid has no aspirations will encourage them and take them out to see the world, because they love and accept that young person as their son or daughter regardless, but they know that their child’s attitude toward life is not the way that things ought to be.
I would gladly sit down for a drink with Bearnecessity. I’d travel the known world together with him/her. Over the years, I would bring my family over for dinner and I would play soccer and I would laugh and sing with Bearnecessity, or any person who has same-sex attractions. There is no way in which I would not embrace — in which I would not love and accept — someone who identifies as LGBT, Becky. But if by love and accept you mean saying that everything a person experiences and everything a person does and everywhere a person finds themselves is equally valid and right, I can’t do that. I think that’s the real hateful thing to do, because it leaves people where they are and refuses to come alongside them in their brokenness. If you agree with my definition, though, and you just disagree on the point that same-sex attraction is one of those points of brokenness, then our differences are really not that great after all, and we can disagree while remaining fast friends. I don’t have any enmity toward you or Bearnecessity or anyone else on the basis of such things, Becky, and I would never want to. Do you see what I mean, then, when I say love and acceptance? What do you think about what I’ve said?
Thanks, by the way, for talking with me about it. I do appreciate that you were willing to talk with me, even though you’ve so strongly disagreed with what I’ve said and even thought I was being hateful at the time that you wrote it.
karlamdavis mckenzieja People are turning away from the church because they being brought up in a happy go lucky feel good world, where sin is regarded as a personal choice. The Bible is very clear about its stance on homosexual lifestyles and abortion. The problem isnt the attitude of malice towards the sinners in question, although they need to remember to love their neighbor, its the fact that we have allowed our churches to preach a water down version of the bible for so long that it is becoming daily practice that sin is allowed. should we judge them for their decisions? NO x100 that’s not our job as Christians, we should love them because that’s what we are commanded to do. Should we openly teach and preach exactly what the Bible says in hope that they too will be allowed in to heaven? YES x1000000000. For us to allow them to damn their souls to a eternity of the absence of God isn’t love. In the time we live in everyone is more concerned about how some one “feels” and if it will upset anyone when at the end of the day, this world is not our home, and their discomfort at hearing the truth will just be a passing shadow in comparison to the eternal pain they will feel for indulgence in these practices.
There was a time when Holy men of God taught the unfiltered world of God so strongly that the people hung on to the pillars of the church in fear for their souls because of their sins. And they had Revival. Just a thought.
NathanKnight so you are saying that those martyred for Christ ought not to have recognition because “we don’t have to worry about death.” Wow. I am flabbergasted. I hope this means you will be incredibly brave when it’s your turn. They’re coming for us…
But I doubt it has anything at all to do with DD freedom of speech.
That’s just really crass, man, to not even offer any word on behalf of people killed in Sudan or people who die for their faith. It seems like a reach to justify your position. What about hearing what the author is saying?
karlamdavis mckenzieja The world is ALREADY condemned. You cant serve two masters. And phil was not hateful, he peaceably disagreed with the homosexual way of life. You CANNOT win people to Christ by appeasement. Phil was simply quoting scripture and the homosexual community does NOT like it.
Infoczar1 Dog the Bounty Hunter was far more successful in its hayday than DD has been. Storage Wars, Scared Straight, Parking Wars, hoarders….all were very succesful. So to say this is their only successful endeavor is false. And just like every other one, this’ll be a thing of people’s past memories in a year or 2 anyway. it’s called a FAD.
I agree! I love this post! Like- when gay people keep screaming about getting the right to be married or those black people keep screaming about racism. I just feel like shouting “Calm the duck down!”. Hmm. Your flawed logic doesn’t look so enlightened now when the shoe is on the other foot, does it? The only reason your logic does make sense to you is because you think YOUR version of morality is better than someone else’s- the very thing you are accusing Duck Dynasty of doing. Shame on you.
Ha! I was just waiting for the “original opinion” on this subject, as I knew it was coming. Without fail anytime something happens in current events that unites Christians in a positive way (for the good of furthering the gospel) there’s without fail a few takes on the subject that jump on us Christians and tell us how bad we are for being concerned about an issue, and how we are all somehow “missing the point”.–I really think you’re missing the point here.
Didn’t care for this blog. I don’t think beating the church up, criticizing it and accusing it FALSELY makes things right. I know a ton of Christians who care very deeply that OVER 550 people were killed in South Sudan this past week–people are on their knees praying. In fact, one native Pastor in particular was gunned down and we were praying for a miracle that he would live-in a country that does not have ONE hospital, only poorly stocked clinics. You need surgery, you die–unless you have some amazing connections and get air lifted to Kenya. So the connection of accusing the church for not having sympathy is wrong. Because the author of this blog did not like they way Phil said things, gives no reason to attack the entire body of Christ. AND I do definitely see a trend in America of Christians being less and less tolerated, while everyone of every other faith or belief system has rights. This is wrong and double sided. There are definite changes with that and I do believe persecution is coming to the USA. It may not be in the form of going to jail for our faith, like in other countries. But it may come as Pastors and churches are sued for standing up for their beliefs, people losing their jobs, groups being accused of hate crimes for what they say and are put on a “list.” No one liked John the Baptist either. He went and spoke against sin. Jesus said we would be hated because He was hated also. It is one thing to be beat up by non believers, it is worse when the church turns and attacks itself.
To sum up the article: Don’t quote God or care about America because someone will be offended.
ChadHoltz in most cases he can only speak to what is in his news feed, not yours. Maybe there will be a blog post about getting over Frank Schaefer (whom I know nothing about) tomorrow.
Do you honestly disagree that we look foolish with this anger about Phil Robertson? If you do, you’ll probably change your mind when he’s inevitably reinstated. I give it until Christmas Eve.
We all get carried away sometimes. The question is whether we are growing and learning to calm down about what doesn’t matter so much. When all we can do is defend our reactions, then I’m not sure.
“I don’t hear anyone from the left telling them they should shut up and focus on Sudan.”–This seems like a deliberate put-down of Matt’s point, but that makes it no less valid. 500 people killed. KILLED. Yet we’re upset about a rich, relatively powerful man being “mocked.”
And anyway, what’s the left got to do with this? Why in the world should we be talking about the liberal left? Are they your example? Because Christ is the one who should be.
These comments (in general, here, and on my FB feed as well) are classic reactions from those who think that Republican Conservatism is a valid meter for faith and Christianity. One problem with that: martyrs in other countries who’ve never even heard of “democracy” or “republic” don’t even register on that meter.
But to start thinking a little critically, we have to, as Matt said, calm down a little.
Again, great job, Matt.
karlamdavis mckenzieja No one said “hate the sinner”. Phil simply pointed out the fact that homosexuality was a sin. Which is truth. Did you even READ the article?
To any folks who are gay and confused and reading this, the invitation was given 2000 years ago. Repent and be saved, God loves you and He hates your sin and welcomes you if you will turn to him. I spent enough time in Montrose, the gay area of Houston, to know there are those of you who want to repent, and you can. Find a good church, there are Christians who are ready to love you and help you turn from your sin, but do it right away for “Today is the day of salvation”.
recoveringyouthpastor I don’t care what anybody says, Homosexuality is a CHOICE.
mckenziejakarlamdavisThe hate the sin not the sinner is a disingenuous statement in situations like this. While it is true in some cases, no one can truly, deep down in their hearts,
believe it is true in this case. The alleged “sin” is homosexuality, we
call the people committing the sin “homosexuals”. The “sin” and the
“sinners” are inextricably linked. The “sinner” is labeled with the
“sin” and thus embodies the sin. Please explain to me how you can say ”
I hate what that person believes, what he does, the way he lives his
life but other than his core beliefs and who he is as a person, my God
I love him with all of my heart.” That just does not hold up.
Laura110 you do know calling someone a moron is the last way to have them listen to you. love your neighbour as yourself. you can say that we are hateful and misguided, but I at least try to be respectful of everyone even if I disagree with them. I do not believe in tolerance, I believe in understanding.
Laura110 westking “The fool hath said in his heart, there is no god”
The author of this blog is trying to use a psychological trick. “Stop complaining about your problem. There are starving children in africa”. That is- until it’s “His problem”. His problem and morality are equal to starving children in Africa. Making the argument “either or” is disingenuous.
JoeNCA ChadHoltz What group are you referring to? “You shall know them by their fruits.” That’s not judging… right?
I love how you preach tolerance towards others and their beliefs except if they are christian (which I am not), don’t agree with gay rights (I am all about gay rights and marriage for same sex couples), and conservatives (which I am). Isn’t that a bit of the pot calling the kettle black.
If you want tolerance then want it for everyone, not just those that see your way. I don’t give a crap about Duck Dynasty. I think Phil had a right to say what he said but A&E also has the right to hire and fire whoever they want. I am sure they will be picked up by another network or A&E will drop it and Phil will be back.
What I am tired of is people saying that they are the poster child for tolerance UNLESS you are southern, christian, or conservative. That doesn’t make any sense.
DeanRice
Stuff like this drives me nuts
@beckymurphy So you’re tired of all the “hate” because you think it’s wrong and you think the best way to solve it is to “hate” back?
HillaryThomasWatkins DeanRice Stuff like your comments drive me nuts.
coletterose mckenzieja karlamdavis “He that loveth the world, the love of the father is not in him” But IF the love of the father is in him, he would see the soul’s worth. Homosexuality is a choice, plain and simple, Hidden by the lie that homosexuality is biological. Im saying, if Christians truly loved the lost, as Christ, then they would share his message regardless of it’s offense. Of course the bible is offensive.. to all. “There is none righteous, no not one”, “all have sinned…” Christians are as much as a sinner as these homosexuals, just different sins. True salvation is only found in the end, Judgment.
“And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works”
HillaryThomasWatkins DeanRice Just doing my best to soften the tone, draw a line in the sand, and offer truth.
PrudenceDagg so I guess you celebrate all saints day every year then right? “recognizing a man bringing people to salvation so we don’t have to worry about death.” is that not the basic gospel of Jesus Christ? and correct me if I’m wrong but he is saying that DD has had incredible reach for the gospel, and that is an amazing thing.
jdallen1 AndrewImlay JD,
I was scrolling down the conversation in my email, deleting comments without reading them because I didn’t want to deal with the inevitable personal attacks. “Something” made me pause at yours, though, and I saw how much time you put into your response, and I looked more carefully out of respect for your effort. I’m really glad I did; I’ve read and re-read your comment about four times now. You cover a lot of ground very, very clearly. No, I didn’t know Jonah’s story well; I’ll go back and read it. Thanks for that. Mainly, the clarity of your thoughts helped me clarify my own. I have exactly three (minor) points of possible disagreement — not central to what you’re saying, so not worth going into here. Mainly, the substance and energy you put out make me wish we could sit down over coffee and really talk. I’m certainly not in the position to judge, but maybe your last sentence authorizes me to on your terms: your truth, humility, and love come through loud and clear. That doesn’t feel like a coincidence, but a gift with a purpose. Thank you. Andrew.
Wigout yes we do if you want to have a far reach you have to go to where they are not to where you are.
Why is it so hard for you to see that everyone sins and nobody is perfect? Phil included himself in that also. God is the only one who can and ever will be perfect and is why we all need him no matter how good or bad of a person you are. Humanity’s only saving redemption on this earth is Christ for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
Thanks for this article. 🙂 I’ve been thinking this all along, though I could not put it so eloquently. As the church, we are called to glorify Christ, making much of HIM, not ourselves and our comfort. If the church would stand together, proclaiming the love that Christ has for us, our subsequent love for the world, and the grace that we are ALL so desperately in need of, imagine what the reaction would be from the “other side”!
Jesus said we would be persecuted for the sake of the Gospel, so props to Phil for standing through it. Props to you for enduring the persecution of these other comments… And shame on so-called “Christians”, who, rather than enduring persecution and using it to bring more people to Christ, get up in arms to keep their favorite show on television.
DeanRiceHillaryThomasWatkins
Everyone sins, and according to the bible one sin is not different from another. They are all the same. Also the bible says that God is the only one that can judge and that you should not judge your fellow man.
I highly doubt your comment is going to make anyone become straight. You simply can’t turn someone straight.
Just like I can’t make you see that evolution is the way that things actually happened.
I would never hate you because you believe in the bible, I would never encourage anyone to knock you down.
nexu87 I appreciate your response. I am not saying that we should not teach universal morals and ethics within the church, especially when we have Christ by our side to combat our sins. As much as there are a few verses about homosexuality and abortion in the Bible, there are also other sins which we as Christians have decided to ignore so that we may continue to live comfortably in our suburban, middle-class way of life. These were all “do not do’s (and SOME ARE actually part of the 10 commandments):” do not covet, do not murder, do not divorce, honor the sabbath. It so so wrong of the church to focus on simply the aforementioned two topics, and then go out to the polls and vote for the most conservative candidate, because this is supposedly the “right” thing to do for America(that’s a whole other tangent). Who do we think we are to speak for God and implant our OWN beliefs on others? This is certainly NOT love. First, we must establish true kinship with one another, and then out of love tell one another of the gospel of Christ. I doubt Phil would ever think to do this before speaking out against a the lives of many and the reasons behind their decisions. Never ever should we use this as any kind of reasoning: ” For us to allow them to damn their souls to a eternity of the absence of God isn’t love.”
When Phil did not execute any biblical principles whatsoever in his insensitive and there is not other word for it: ignorant comments on gays and blacks. Even more so, when Phil and any one else who has a wide audience (i.e. Miley Cyrus and the like) speaks up on, people will listen, for better or worse. It was not WISE to say what he did.
mckenzieja this is for you too. You too cannot serve the master of condemnation and love. If Phil is going to quote scripture at all, let it be a message of love.
coletterose dawnharnish First, who is the government?? The PEOPLE. The liberals have been yelling for years about their rights. So when a christian speaks up we get told we are judging. We have a right to speak our beliefs as much as the next person without having to get suspended from our jobs. That is called discrimination (unless you signed a legal contract stating you are not allowed to say certain things). Yes, this is not a “government” issue but it is a rights issue that is given to us by the government. Please watch the podcast. I think you will find it interesting. Thanks and have a Merry Christmas!!
Yes, the gospel message is full of love and grace. But, it is also very offensive. To be told that everyone is a sinner… that’s a hard pill to swallow. Jesus was full of love and grace for people, but his words were also wildly offensive to many. His own people attempted to kill him on several occasions because of his teachings. We should definitely love others and show them God’s grace and mercy, but not at the expense of their souls. We would be doing them a disservice if we fail to go beyond just “soothing their hurt feelings.”
You seem to have forgotten that he was asked a question for an interview and answered what he believes to be truth. How is that the same as choosing what food you eat? It has no comparison to sinful behavior and therefore a null and void example.
HillaryThomasWatkins DeanRice I don’t hate you 🙂 The issue I”ve had with this article isn’t so much about our disagreement. Its that Christians are telling other Christians that telling the truth is hate speech. It is so antithetical to the Bible, IMHO. I earlier said that Christian liberties were at stake. What I mean is that there is a progression in this Christian nation of ours that even Christians are now trying to stifle the truth. They believe that love and kindness is about acceptance. It just doesn’t work because they say things like you are saying “your a sinner, I’m a sinner, so don’t judge me”. That is the surest sign that you don’t care about the Bible, and I think you’re admitting that so I’m cool with it. Its people who are manipulating that truth that so many of us hold most precious to our lives. A Christian says “I’m a sinner, please help me repent” and those who don’t respect the truth say “You’re no better than me”.
WigoutNathanKnightAs you know, God has created everyone with different gifts and abilities. So you’re saying there are lows in reaching the lost with the different abilities and platforms God has placed in us to reach the lost? Matthew 25:14-30?
mckenzieja im not sure why you told me that. i didnt say anything about Homosexuality
BradBates RobDrury EricBoersma Johann Popper I completely agree. In fact, it’s the very point I was making.
So when Jesus called the Pharisees snakes and vipers, sons of hell this was not to offend them…as Si would say “WAKE UP JACK!!!!!”
DeanRice HillaryThomasWatkins Dean, you are so right, and yet very very wrong. As Christians you are called to share the “truth,” but isn’t this to be done out of love? Was Phil making his opinion known because he loves the gay community so much that he wants them to repent? Highly unlikely. He probably said it because he is a bigot and hates that group of people, and is using his faith as a reason to keep hating them. It is all about context. It isn’t about accepting the sin, but accepting the sinner. Phil doesn’t accept the sinner. Simple as that. But keep on defending the church in this instance, although I’m sure my church would do as much as possible to stay away from anything this guy says or believes.
DeanRice HillaryThomasWatkins THE TRUTH IS SUBJECTIVE. Don’t pick and choose your bible verses.
jemery84 How about we use love when we communicate, rather than use our faith to hate a group of people
KatieMartin2 “Your support of Phil and Phil’s messages, whether you mean it this way or not, is hurtful toward other people. And that should matter to us. Why? Because we are the ones who proclaim the grace and mercy and love of Christ. And Christ cares about those who are offended by Phil’s speech.”Yeah, that is such a stupid point. Why be concerned with non-believers feelings. We should just stop trying to get people to believe in God’s love, and tell them about how much he hates them.
So you’re a Christian blogger, condemning Christians for supporting a fellow Christian, and mocking that he’s being persecuted and having his Constitutional rights trampled on? Your justification is that this is just a meaningless TV show about a family of hunters…you forgot that this family lives and and preaches the Word….might I remind you that Jesus was just a poor carpenter who did the same thing and was also persecuted to his death? And Paul was a pretty despicable man himself before his conversion but Jesus chose him to be a leader of His church…..I sincerely pray that you repent of your sarcastic denigration of Christians supporting Phil
“those of us who lift up the values of Christ,” and then there are those of us who lift up the cross of Christ.
There are a lot more important things to be offended by, and I for one am thankful that Christianity is dying off in the mainstream. It’ll keep the fakers out.
Let’s just make sure we don’t forget that Christianity is not about values, but the Grace of one man shown in his death.
SupportforPhilThere is something I’m trying like mad to put to rest here, and that’s the completely wrong idea that Phil Robertson is having his Constitutional rights trampled on. He is not. That couldn’t be further from the truth. Phil Robertson has the right to speak. He has the right to publish. He has the right to say anything he wants without fear of fine or imprisonment by the government. That is where his rights end. He has NO right to be not be criticized or attacked by the media. He has no right to keep his television program. Nobody has the Constitutional right to be on TV. He has the right to speak. He does not have the right to be heard by X number of people that’s become accustomed to. A&E Network has a 1st Amendment right to put people on TV that they think are good for business and make it easier for them to sell ad time. Whether or not that continues to be Phil Robertson…we’ll soon find out.
Yes I’m sure that’s what the Jews thought when they began putting the “x” or whatever mark it was on the stores so that people would know not to shop there… A Jew was there… Just the beginning. No it’s not about free speech. It’s not about a reality show. It’s about a fellow brother in Christ who has boldly stood up for His God and was fired for it… Yes persecuted. Yeah… It’s just a job… Remember that if you are ever in his shoes. “If you deny Me before man, I will deny you before my Father.” This is the issue. Would YOU be as bold and stand as strong for your God? Would you want an army of your brother and sisters behind you? I would. No, I’m sorry I won’t “duck” down… I will stand up and proclaim Jesus with my brother in Christ.
KristenAdams I don’t watch DD and couldn’t care less. I have a problem that he was maligned for speaking his faith, ironically in direct response to loaded questioning by a magazine produced by the same company that produces the show. We are to endure persecution, but that does not mean we have to tolerate it or pretend that it is acceptable. I don’t put what happened to Phil in the same category as those who have lost their lives for their faith, but it is clear that he was mistreated solely for embracing Godly values.
It is then a tremendous kick to the gut that he in turn endures persecution for those calling themselves Christians.
livnfrogUh… did you just compare this to the persecution of the Jews? Overreact much? How absurd. Also he isn’t fired, he’s suspended, there is a difference. And no I’m not actually on A&E’s side in this, but felt the need to comment and point out the your overblown absurdity.
HillaryThomasWatkins DeanRice Hmmm… wonder why?
aproprose DeanRice HillaryThomasWatkins The truth is absolutely NOT subjective! Any one version of the truth is correct or it isn’t. If it doesn’t line up with the Word of God, it’s not.
A broken foundation is a broken house
As a neighbor of Sudan, I will say that this where it all starts. If we don’t deal with this issue and jump onto issues in Sudan to fix it, we are dealing with a fruit and not the root of the problem. When a country leaves it’s foundation everything else crumbles.
HillaryThomasWatkins DeanRice Evolution, referring to transition through mutation and natural selection, most certainly happened; but it didn’t happen anywhere near the way prominent evolutionists believe it did. It was completely choreographed.
GarrettVascil jemery84 We don’t use our faith to hate anyone; we use it to hopefully save that group of people from eternity in hell. This can, and should, be done in love; but it should in fact be done, regardless of who gets offended in the process.
It’s not “just out of curiosity” if you “know the kind of answer I’ll give.” It is self righteous and condescending. What I should think on is my own spiritual welfare. That, and on how to help the suffering of others. If I wanted to concern myself with the sins of others Id start knocking food out of the hands of the gluttonous to give to the starving. Looking at some profile pictures, quite a few really suffer from love of food. How sad, when so many in the US and abroad are hungry and malnourished.
It’s interesting that it’s not enough to be Christian, or to love Christ. I should–and this is an implication, of course, you didn’t outright say so–but the implication is that my love for Christ is not the “right” kind. Let’s not make Christian fight Christian. But I will fight if it’s in defense of another. I’ll fight to the death.
livnfrog Ah, the slippery slope argument. Instead of debating reality, you’ve decided to jump to an extreme hypothetical.
If I were the kind of person to use the slippery slope argument, I might say that by allowing celebrities to denounce homosexuals (essentially labeling them as an inferior social group) in mass media without repercussion, we’re taking a step toward rounding them up, shipping them off, and exterminating them. But, of course, I wouldn’t make such a careless and hypothetical argument. (Even though Jews weren’t the only ones persecuted and murdered by Hitler. Homosexuals were as well.)
Furthermore, Christianity is one of the most omnipresent forces in American life and culture. We’re never had a president who didn’t profess to be a Christian. We have churches on every street corner. Far more people claim to be Christians than any other belief system. Politicians declare publicly that the United States is a “Christian nation” and use the Bible as the basis for legislative arguments.
That’s a very far cry from the situation of German Jews during the 1930s.
BradBates JoeNCA BeckyMurphy _Chris Bearnecessity
I want to make sure that I get this straight: people literally starving and dying in the streets is less important than who gets married to whom?
I want to make sure I’ve got that explicitly clear. A few hundred thousand people getting married to someone of the same sex is more important than the 50 million people who aren’t sure whether they’re going to get three square meals today?
Because like, Jesus had some really important things to say about that kind of thing. And as it turns out, he was super concerned about people going hungry. Not so much about the gay marriage.
RobDrury EricBoersma Johann Popper I want to make sure that I’ve got this explicitly clear: someone raping a child or murdering your family is <i>exactly the same</i> to you as two people who have zero relation to your life having sex with one another if they have the same genitals?
dawnharnishcoletterose Uh, I think you have confused our democratic republic with communism. “The PEOPLE” are not the government, the elected officials that the people elected are the government. If you were my boss and I called you an a-hole, that is a belief that I am speaking and I have as much right to speak it as the next person. You, however, as my boss, have a right to fire me. A private entity can fire you for the things that you say. Would you want a teacher going into classes and telling people that Christianity is a lie, because that is his/her belief.
The fact remains, this is not a freedom of speech issue. Being persecuted for faith is different than being persecuted because a person is acting like a jerk.
Many self-proclaimed Christians in this nation need to examine their own behavior. You can’t treat people like objects to be converted. Anyone that is doing that is experiencing justified push back and NOT persecution.
GarrettVascilDeanRiceHillaryThomasWatkinsWhoa Garret… You obviously missed the part of Phil’s statement talking about loving all people. Gotta reference all – not only the parts that suit your argument.
HillaryThomasWatkinsI can appreciate your POV… I, a Christian, have a son who has chosen to be gay. I love my son, but I don’t condone his decision. Am I going to hate him and push him aside? No. Because Jesus commands us to love one another, but do not judge lest you be judged yourself. Because I am not my son’s judge (he’s a man now capable of making his own decisions), it has freed me up to love not only him, but all gays. If we are truly Jesus followers, it makes no difference what the condition of the human soul – homeless, drug abuser, rich, poor, helpless, gay, straight, sex trafficked, and countless others. God cares about your relationship with Him, that’s why He gave you the freedom to choose. Garrett got something right – sharing the truth is to be done out of love, but I will add “without condemnation”.
DeanRice Althoughyour message is correct, we have to approach it with love without condemnation. Hillary is right – God is the only judge. You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink. My son knows the truth yet he still chose this lifestyle. Does that hurt? Hell yes… but I won’t stop loving him. I also realized early on that if I try to “straighten him out”, it’ll drive him further away. The Prodical story became so much clearer…
Just my two cents… Love people without prejudice…
dawnharnish coletterose No, you do not the have “a right to speak our beliefs as much as the next person without having to get suspended from our jobs”. That’s not at all what the Constitution says. The First Amendment says that government can’t stop you from saying what you want. You can’t get arrested for speaking your mind, but your employer (a private entity) can certainly fire you. By your logic, I can go into my boss’ office and curse him out, and he can’t do a thing about it.
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the First Amendment.
Censoring his comments by removing him from TV show should bother you…that equates to the censoring of the Church.
Wow! Apparently you are one of the millions who didn’t read the whole GQ article and just chose to read the bits and pieces the media chose to fixate on. Read the whole article and then try again. He whole message was to love. But apparently you didn’t get that far.
SupportforPhil Not all of the church believes homosexuality is a sin or that we should constantly oppress them and insult them like other Christians do.
RichardEllis1 The Pharisees were the ones throwing out condemnation and rules. Those defending Phil are the Pharisees here.
DeanRice The Church. Helping people to shut off the very thing they are since 32 AD!
But really, I’m a Christian and can’t possibly see a loving God making someone have an unending urge to do something that would send them to Hell. That’s damnation from birth.
Keep loving him, of course. I have no doubt that you love your son and would like him to turn from his lifestyle. But God has never changed, he hasn’t evolved. So when I stumble into sin I confess it and ask for help to repent. Your son is no more a sinner than me, but if he wants to follow Jesus he surely must turn from that sin, the Bible says homosexuals will not inherit the Kingdom of heaven. You have to give that kind of love to him, and who knows, I’ve seen and spoken to gays who have turned from that sin. Don’t be fooled into thinking that it’s ok to hold on to that sin, you’d have to throw out Pauls books from the BIble to take that view. Best..
NorwoodPagan nope. . .not gonna calm down . . .and before anyone starts throwing stones that we don’t care about the homeless, the hungry, the downtrodden. . .what do you know? I donate to the Food Bank. . .and I need to donate to No Kid Hungry. . .I even gave money to a guy on the street the other day. . .he said he was a veteran. . .I gave him my hard earned money. . .if he is lying he can answer for that. . .I hardly ever pass a Salvation Army Kettle at this time of year without putting something in. . .we’ve bought meals for soldiers in restaurants. . .so NO. . .I won’t calm down. . .
a Jewish proverb says you didn’t care about this one because it didn’t affect you. . .and you didn’t care about that one because it didn’t affect you. . .and now it does affect you, and who’s left to care about and defend you. . .
Yes. . .A&E has the right to do whatever it is they do. . .and I have the right to act accordingly. . .however I see fit. . .
ask the Dixie Chicks how it turns out when you offend us radical right wing, gun totin’, religious fanatic hicks living in middle America. . .nope. . .not gonna calm down over this one. . .https://www.facebook.com/pamela.f.hargrove/posts/10152032937953855?comment_id=29642034&offset=0&total_comments=15 · https://www.facebook.com/pamela.f.hargrove/posts/10152032937953855?comment_id=29641585&offset=0&total_comments=13¬if_t=feed_comment_reply#
First, I agree with everything you said. Though I have to say this —
even if it’s nitpicking: Vagina and anus are nouns. They are not curse
words, they are not nasty, they aren’t even dirty. Frankly, I’m
surprised he used those words and not the plethora
of revolting euphemisms he could have employed. If there’s a talking to
to be had, it should be for the insensitive, homophobic (and a little
misogynist, if you ask me) way in which he used those words — but not
the words themselves. As an
editor, as an avid reader, it shocks me how prude we are as a society.
Curse words have never bothered me, personally, but I understand that
they hold a certain power and why
people choose not to use them. These two words, though, are just words,
and
we should be using them and not fearing them or giving them a context or
stigma that they simply don’t deserve.
DeanRiceOh I wholeheartedly agree. God has always been the same. My hope is that he will eventually turn back to Jesus. And yes, he will have to confess when he gets to that point.
well i agree to a small degree there are other issues, but should this issue be ignored. i don’t think so. Yea its a tv, and u say its meaningless, i say look at the youth and look at the tv shows they watch. this is probably one of the few moral christian tv shows on tv that i would love for my kids to watch. Yea we need to handle other issues, and I don’t think Jesus was worried about who got offended from his preaching. he didn’t sugarcoat his comments to not offend people. if there’s an issue with what he said then the issue is with the Bible itself. whenever you share truth people with get offended point blank period. doesn’t matter, the Bible talks about sinning. So whenever you tell a married man who’s having an affair that he’s wrong that’s going to offend them. It’s about time the Church stops backing down to all these anti-Christian agendas and just preach truth.
Jesus said “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.” Jesus came to offend people, to cause a divide between right and wrong, so that people will have to choose a side. these fence sitter christians that don’t want to offend anybody by “QUOTING” truth, the Bible says you have to choose a side, if your a fence sitter and you want to sugar coat everything, the Bible says you’ve chosen your side. Yea i agree that there are people who need help. But where should we start making a stand. Because believe me if a member of GLAAD or the LGBT came out and made statements, you probably wouldn’t have much to say, Miley Cyrus was on tv, twerking, having sex with her clothes on pretty much and no one says a thing. So would i rather my child watch Duck Dynasty then to be exposed to the vile images the media accepts as good? Yea i think i’ll fight for Duck Dynasty because unless I plan on sheltering my children from tv forever, there needs to be some type of moral show on.
& from where i sit Phil showed love and compassion.
The Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits employment discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin. Now, I am not a lawyer, but I am pretty sure that Phil Robertson’s dismissal could be in violation of such legislation considering A&E is technically the Robertson’s employer.
That being said if a gay person had been discriminated against for voicing his views and fired based on his religion would you have a problem with the LGBT and GLAAD fighting for him? I don’t think you would.
He’s condemning Christians? You don’t even go here.
He’s asking people to think rationally when responding to a media debacle, and that’s a condemnation? The advice to think on your words?
“Hey guys, let’s calm down and think about this!”
“Think? Calm down? That’s anti-Christian! How dare you! I want to cling to my irrational fear of persecution!”
RobDrury KristenAdams Interesting. I did not realize that A&E and GQ were produced by the same company. Looks like a win-win for both of them – more people will read the magazine now in anger against Phil’s comments, and more people will watch the show now in support of Phil. Sounds pretty clever on their part as they have gotten more PR than if they had tried. The author of the GQ article should be getting a good payday/raise/promotion for his good work or “good” work, depending what side of the coin you’re on…
TylerLClark1 livnfrog It’s funny that the Nation proclaims Christianity but the moment a Christian voices his views the nation wants him silenced. Sounds like to me you should look more at there actions and not believe everyone is a Christian just because they say it. the KKK claimed Christianity too before they murdered minorities. America claimed Christianity before they murdered the Indians, enslaved, raped and killed Black people. hmmm.
No. It does not. There are other platforms to speak about the church. You must see that. A private business has no obligation to give anyone any kind of platform. No one is getting censored.
Reallis I can’t believe that this is a serious response by an adult. Did you read the title? Did you read anything in the rest o the post? It should be beyond obvious that that is sarcasm.
REALLY????? In what Church do you attend that homosexuality isn’t a sin????? God Himself called it an abomination!! Wondering if your “church” is truly a Christian Church. Just cause someone states their belief doesn’t mean they are being oppressive towards the sinner…they simply don’t agree with the sin!!
hickchickinhc RobDrury KristenAdams You may be onto something.
No one is oppressing or insulting homosexuals….oppress is what GLAAD insisted A&E do to Phil…the Bible clearly states homosexuality as sinful, along with many other acts of sin…we are love the sinner and hate the sin….but denying the sin or choosing what you believe is sin is not what Christians are to do.
Never was any shortage of people who know exactly by God, just how everyone else should live their lives. God has no shortage of spokesman either.
Thats right lets blame the church, thats what I call Foolish…..
Donn311 God also called it an abomination to shave your beard or eat shelfish.
KylePierce SupportforPhil False doctrine.
Yes, the World has bigger problems. But one of the Biggest Americans/ Christians face is worrying to much about being PC and not stand up for God.
We say we don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings, that God wouldn’t want us to pass judgement. But how are we going to stand before God on judgement day and tell him why we didn’t try and save all these people is because we we don’t want hurt their feelings. How are you going to justify to God, that there feelings being hurt was more important then there souls burning in hell?
Yes Its a hard pill to swallow, and yes I am the last person to hurt someone else or judge someone on what they do in bed. Truthfully I don’t care… But after all this and my love for God, how can I look at my Gay/non-beliver friends (who I love dearly) and not tell them what the bible spells out in black and white? What they choose is between them and God and not by any means my business or my place to judge.
Americans/Christians What Phil said wasn’t to hurt people, it was meant to open eyes and look around it did.
kingd21122 TylerLClark1 livnfrog I agree with you that there’s a difference between words and action, but that wasn’t my point.
I’m certainly not saying that I agree that we are a Christian nation. (The idea that we have any sort of official religion goes against the entire spirit of the First Amendment.) My point is that the fact that so many prominent political and cultural leaders claim that we are is evidence of Christianity’s prominence in American society. No one claims to be Jewish, Muslim or an atheist in order to win votes or public approval.
shalamar1516 livnfrog not an overeaction, just pointing out how things get started. There are a lot of things in this country now, that were at the beginings of the rise of the NAZI party. We need to be aware of the smaller beginings to keep us from the end products we have seen elsewhere in the world.
Donn311 The Bible used the greek word for male prostitutes, referring to the temple prostitutes of Aphrodite and Dionysus. Shocking that a 2000 year old book would be slightly mistranslated right?
I disagree with this opinion.
1st. I think that his reality show is actually showing the light of Christ to many Americans that are not followers of Christ.
2nd. I’m aware of many other problems around the world and Christians being in jail because of the name of Christ and I pray and try to help in any possible way BUT that doesn’t means that what happens here in the US doesn’t matter to me.
3rd. I think that thousands of people that are not necessarily Christians are disapproving this decision from A&E. So it’s not just the church being “ridiculous”
Plus if you had time to write such a long article about it, it’s because some how (independent of your opinion) this is important for you too.
GomezAlJaneScrogginsNo one said anything about hate!!! No one hates you!!! You don’t need to fight back! Just don’t expect everyone to agree with you!! The Bible condemns homosexuality. (yeah it does). Most straight men will agree with Phil, at least my relatives or the one’s I’ve dated! There is more hate in your response than anything Phil Robertson said!!!
TylerLClark1 kingd21122 livnfrog Have you looked at our congress lately? We have a very distinguished Senator from Connecticut that just retired and people had no doubt of him being Jewish, and he was a vice presidential nominee!. There is now a Muslim Representative. There are many others who represent who do claim atheism, Barney Frank for one. Open your eyes!
KentStraith SupportforPhil You are partially correct. He has the right to say what he did without reprisals from the government. He also has the right to not be fired by his employer for his personal religeous beliefs. A&E violated EEOC by taking action against him for his views, whether you, me, or anyone else agrees or disagrees with his views. This is NOT a first Amendment issue, this IS an EEOC issue.
Boozleford Action was taken against him by his employer for his religeous beliefs. This is clearly a viloation of EEOC.
Boozleford JaneScrogginsDo you really hate everyone who ISN’T gay??? That’s what I’m getting from what you are saying?? If you don’t believe in God or accept the Bible as his word you might have an argument sorta but even then it seems to me that you should allow people like Phil Robertson the right to their opinion. He didn’t say anything about hating you, just gave his opinion on sex! I’m pretty disgusted with bigots like yourself who try to act like they are superior because they don’t believe anyone is ever entitled to disagree with them and who chose to not believe the Bible and call it tolerance!!!
DeanRiceBoozleford JaneScrogginsBTW we are all sinners and need to repent!
Funny how this article is plastered with the famous faces of Duck Commander to make sure people stop to read….a bit ironic perhaps?
tylerbrainerd Donn311 You need to dig into your Bible a little more. All dietary restrictions were lifted by Jesus himself, and backed up by Peter’s dream.
From his beliefs he merely quoted the bible. If you were to read specific verses such as these, word for word, you would probably offend many more people… I think he did a very nice job sprucing it up!!http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+20%3A13&version=ESV ESV / 102 helpful votes
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+1%3A10&version=ESV ESV / 101 helpful votes
The sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+6%3A9&version=ESV ESV / 88 helpful votes
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+7%3A2&version=ESV ESV / 80 helpful votes
But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.
Helpful Not Helpfulhttp://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+7%3A7-9&version=ESV ESV / 65 helpful votes
I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another. To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
HillaryThomasWatkins I don’t agree with 2/3 of your views, but with all of your words, EXCEPT – A&E does not have the right to fire someone because of their religeous beliefs. This is a violation of EEOC.
Now, does this affect me and you in any way, not really. If Phil’s lawyers decide to do something, that is between him and A&E.
First, I believe A&E had a right to do what they did logically. He is an employee, but its also called discrimination. second, they knew exactly what they were getting themselves into when hiring Duck Commander to do a reality series on their network, and have even said in the past, “The views of the Robertson family is not the views of A&E.” So why this push for Phil to be suspended? Because affiliates like GLAAD get offended that he spoke the truth about his PERSONAL BELIEFS to GQ. They’ve just shot themselves in the foot because The Robertson family won’t involve themselves with a network that picks and chooses what is ok and not ok for him to profess. He had every right in the book to say what he said. But let me ask you this, if it was a gay professing their love for another gay, would A&E reacted the same with christian pressure from the outside? I think not.
This is the same picking and choosing the liberal antics have bestowed in the govt. Its ok to bow to the king of saudi Arabia, give guns and money to islam extremists , but taking down a cross thats set on a memorial for vets is of upmost importance. Stepping on toes has been redefined into hate and extremism, pushing the christians and their views away and accepting any and every lifestyle whether it be gay, muslim, islamic, or praying to a pasta god ….has taken over the world.
These people are lost, and as christians we’re viewed as haters of these people because we profess that it is wrong because the bible says, Turn from your wicked ways. On the contrary, it is said out of love and mercy. Phil was stating the Bible because he loves the Lord, not because he hates gays. Wise up, the Lord is the same today as he was yesterday.
Calm the “duck” down? When you so easily and repeatedly violate scripture’s command against coarse language, your credibility on issues of the bible and spirituality are rapidly called into question. I’m quite sure that you have no business using the first person pronoun when referring to the Church (which is capitalized when it is speaking of the body of Christ, by the way). Get it together, dude. This article is all over the place and doesn’t even come close to the truth.
JessicaJones1The Robertson family will involve themselves with who ever will give them a paycheck.
RichardGelinaI’m pretty sure that bible should be capitalized as well. Get it together dude.
Thank you for the article – This is exactly what I was thinking! We, the Church, use slander all of the time against those that are not followers of Christ and then we, the Church, say that we are “standing up for God”. I am so sick and tired of hearing that phrase “standing up for God.” God doesn’t need anyone to stand up for Him – He only needs for us to share His love!!!! It’s not about being PC – it’s about being loving in the name of God!!!!! Showing “the light of Christ” by using slander, hurtful, and unloving comments is not showing the “light of Christ” but the wrath of God. Before you can ever talk to someone about God, showing His love goes a lot longer than throwing Biblical phrases and use them like atomic bombs. I have spent all of my life raised in the Church, and I have seen so many Christians point fingers, judge, and be self-righteous – so much that I asked myself – who is God and what are His priorities? When we the Church say or act in a way that is unloving it misrepresents what God is first about – and that is love. If you have ever interacted with those that do not believe in God or have walked away from Him – it is usually because of people like Phil spouting off the Bible without any context and using it for self righteous purposes.
DeanRice The problem today is finding that “good church”. 95% of the poeple on both sides of the issues aren’t the extremes that seem to keep making the news. As long as people like Westboro are out there, LGBT has a right to keep pointing a finger at them. The problem is, all of the 95% keep getting lumped in with them because we don’t separate ourselves.
I understand spreadng a message of love, but all “they” see is the tactics.
Because he loves the Lord, and out of love and mercey, he talked about how the vagina has more there than the anus? Because he loves the Lord, and out of love and mercy he lumped gays in with terrorists? Come on, stop being so naive.
mckenziejarecoveringyouthpastorI am so sick to death of the “persecuted church” mantra. Christians in America are not persecuted in the least. Allow me to quote—Take note: Religious persecution is when you’re prevented from
exercising your beliefs: not when you’re prevented from imposing your
beliefs.-Susan Russell.
The fact that those who do not share your faith are offended when you share your views is not persecution. Any Christian is free to exercise their beliefs without fear in this nation. The pushback mainly comes when you try to codify your views into laws that force those who do not share your faith to live by your rules as well. You have every right to be upset that he was suspended for speaking his mind. You do not get to call it persecution, because it is not. He is as free to practice his religion today as he was yesterday. A&E not wishing to have those opinions associated with their network is their right. It is not persecution.
You’re wrong. They have a paycheck with or without A&E.
aproprose DeanRice HillaryThomasWatkins wrong. Truth is absolute. God is truth and he has provided it to us via scripture. You don’t have to agree with it, but truth is no less truth whether you choose to believe it or not.
You can just tell this guy woke up yesterday early in the morning, probably had some coffee, checked his facebook/twitter feed, saw a few posts, got riled up, and immideiately started typing away after he thought of his extremely ‘catchy’ title. Very little biblical content was used, he summed up ALL Churches in America in a few paragraph, and i CAN’T believe he pulled the “staving kids in third world countries dying from malnutrition” card. In fact I can’t find a single article where he brings light to issues such as that… no he spends his time stalking Mark Driscoll and “exposing” him. He claims “Secondly, remember this is about a reality TV show, a meaningless TV show about a family of outspoken rich hunters. It’s just entertainment, people!” And for a second I thought people on TV were actually REAL. Which is why I’m grateful of people like Carl Lentz and Judah Smith who actually take time to minister and council celebrities and those behind the camera. So much more could be said, but I have to get back to life. NEXT.
The first problem with this opinionated blog is a rather blatant fallacy, that of Appeal to probability, namely stating that since Christians are up in arms about the suspension of Phil from Duck Dynasty (DD) they are NOT angry about the malnutrition, poverty, homelessness and other plagues in the world.
What a perverted way of thinking which is far from the truth, NOT taking into consideration the millions of dollars of support Compassion International and other WORLD WIDE RELIEF organizations Christians support monthly. How can one deduct that simply because Christians (and many non Christians) are angry about a culture that BULLIES anyone who would dare speak up about Biblical belief, that now somehow they DON’T CARE FOR SOCIAL JUSTICE?! Now on to some points of rebuttal.
1. Stop making it about free speech.
No, we cannot throw out the freedom of speech argument because this issue is PARTIALLY about free speech. Phil has a right to speak his faith, A&E has a right to terminate their contract and people have a right to be up in arms about it by blogging, commenting and petitioning the decision! Telling us to get off the topic of free speech is actually hampering our free speech to create a topic about this issue in the first place! SO BACK OFF.
2. This is about a meaningless reality TV show.
That is dense, condescending and blatantly absurd. Phil is a Christian evangelist and minister who has been preaching long before DD came along. Phil, like any good Christian commanded by Christ, shares his faith and the Gospel to all who are willing to listen. When asked a question about sin, he answer with his OWN FAITH-FILLED conviction and has since been bullied, hated, fired and disdained by the media and mainstream culture of our day. THIS IS THE ISSUE AT HAND.
3. The church should remember people were offended and when we support Phil, we miss the grace we are supposed to share.
I AM SORRY, have you read in the scriptures where the apostles reminded Jesus he offended the Pharisees? Jesus said this quoting Isaiah, “Hypocrites! These people draw near Me with their mouths and honor Me with their lips, but their hearts hold off and are far away from Me. Uselessly do they worship Me” (Matt 15:9).
What happened next? In Matt 15:12-14 we read:
“Then the disciples came and said to Him, Do You know that the Pharisees were displeased and offended and indignant when they heard this saying?
He answered, Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be torn up by the roots. Let them alone and disregard them; they are blind guides and teachers. And if a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a ditch.”
WOW Jesus, nice answer, man, what a way to win over your audience in platitudes and nice speech! I mean, that is really graceful right?
4. How many churches would allow Phil to come and use that language?
Well, how many American church goers regularly watch TV and movies and listen to secular music? You will find not only CURSE WORDS abounding, but graphic images of violence, sex and drugs often glorified. But when a man explicitly speaks truth, ah we shun. HYPOCRITES!
The question should better be asked, “Would Jesus be welcome in most churches today?” and the answer would be NO! Look what happened when Jesus spoke in His Church in Luke 4:23-28:
“He said to them, “You will surely say this proverb to Me, ‘Physician, heal yourself! Whatever we have heard done in Capernaum,[l] do also here in Your country.’” 24 Then He said, “Assuredly, I say to you, no prophet is accepted in his own country. 25 But I tell you truly, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, and there was a great famine throughout all the land; 26 but to none of them was Elijah sent except to Zarephath, in the region of Sidon, to a woman who was a widow. 27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet, and none of them was cleansed except Naaman the Syrian.”
28 So all those in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath”
So basically Jesus came to Church and preached that God’s elect (Jews) were passed over for ‘lesser’ people because GOD HIMSELF chose to ignore them and NOT heal or help them (because of their sin and hard hardheartedness).
Ya, that would be like Phil saying, “If you are a homosexual, God won’t bless you.”
Again, this is not about a TV show, rating, or even Phil. This is about being free to express not only speech, but a Biblical worldview in a Country that tolerates ALL FAITHS and PEOPLE. As Christians, we are to be the Light of the World and talk of Sin. Without acknowledging sin, why would one ever need a savior!
hnest
tylerbrainerd Donn311
RonnieHenderson He wouldn’t sound so stupid if he hadn’t been brainwashed by ancient fiction. End of story.
The bible also states that If a man or woman were to divorce and remarry that it would be considered adultery. The form of punishment would be stoning to death. So If you go by a bible that was written over 3,000 years ago chances are you are going to find a lot of things that do not pertain to this culture or time we live in. Sorry but someone being gay affects me none whatsoever. Mary Magdalene was considered to be a woman of loose morals that could range from prostitution to just a woman whose father/family was of low class. As for him being suspended, Many people get let go of their jobs on how they present themselves on FB or other social media. Why should he be different?
SarahHatfieldDewhurst Sarah you are pointing you finger too, look at what you wrote. I read this man’s comments and he is right. He was asked a question and he answered honestly. This the trick of the devil to bring dissension among the believers. Like you have never slandered before? Come on that is a lie and your know it? We are all a work in progress. Does Jesus love the homosexual? Yes! However, he hates there sin. Anyone who is not born again is not a child of God. We are sons and daughters through adoption, not by blood. Isn’t that what Jesus said in John 3 about being born again?
JimMahaffeyshalamar1516livnfrog Oh I agree there are many fascist things happening in the government these days; domestic spying, police brutality, militarization of the police… all those things smell of Nazi-like symptoms. A company suspending its employee to cover its own ass as a ill-thought-out, knee-jerk reaction is hardly in that category. All they should have done is say “his views do not reflect those of A&E or put a disclaimer on the show (which many other reality shows do). Problem solved. But instead the pulled an idiot move and now we have article upon article treating this like some sort of civil rights issue or anti-religion garbage (or like this article saying it isn’t).
WayneC AndrewImlay Thanks Wayne. Hope it helped.
1) I’d hate for you guys to lose your friendship over this. I hope it’s not going that way.
2) Self-identified “righteous Christian”? Really? That’s hard to believe. Are you taking that out of context? Wait — “righteous” has a different theological meaning than “self-righteous”. “Righteous” theologically means something like, “saved from the consequences of my own sin not because I do things right, but because I accept Jesus as my Savior and my righteousness is undeserved but only comes through Him”. So your friend might not mean “SELF-righteous”, as in “I’m saved from the consequences of sin because I don’t sin.” Self-righteousness is anathema to Christianity. Great explanation here: http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/self-righteous_christians.html
with lots of Biblical references. (Sorry if the organization seems generally skeptical of Christianity but this particular page seemed really fair)
3) If your friend really has a superiority complex, which you would know, maybe he’s a recent convert and is going through that false-certainty-phase that can gradually morph into a more layered, complex, “thoughtful” (in my opinion) understanding of the Bible/Christianity. Or maybe he’s attending a Biblically-inerrant, literalist church or seminary…naw, those Christians pay attention to the sin of judgment, don’t they?
4) Well, some people have a personality that needs to feel certain about things, and therefore are incurious — threatened — by uncertainty, including multiple meanings, multiple possibilities, or compassion for people unlike themselves. This spans the political spectrum from right to left 🙂 Maybe you’re a valuable friend to him for all the reasons you know about, but also as an example for him of someone who successfully navigates the world a little differently than he does. In that case, you don’t really need to bring him around to your way of thinking, just care about him and be yourself — your character will speak for itself. Plus, you’ll learn (if you haven’t already) how to be a better friend with someone who thinks the way he does, maybe by learning to take his self-certainty with an affectionate grain of salt.
I know you didn’t ask for advice or anything, so my bad if I overstepped my bounds. Andrew.
P.S. Doesn’t it seem sometimes like Christianity is a bunch of different religions, each with its own Biblically-justifying passages? One Christianity is purely about loving God and our fellow (wo)man; another is all about right and wrong and hell and avoiding God’s wrath. I mean, I know there are different denominations, but sometimes I think some versions of Christianity are closer to some versions of Islam or Judaism than they are to other versions of Christianity (which are closer to other versions of Islam or Judaism). I guess human nature is the same everywhere… 🙂
RobDruryWhen it comes to religious matters, the “truth” absolutely is subjective. It is only truth to a follower. Without even mentioning all the other world religions, Christianity has many different denominations, all based on different interpretations of the “truths” in the Bible. When you share your belief with others, but present that belief as irrefutable proof of their life being somehow wrong, it is offensive to many. It is even more offensive when many who share your view work tirelessly to codify their beliefs into the law of the land, in an attempt to force everyone to live according to your specific version of “truth”.
bornagainSarahHatfieldDewhurst We are going to agree to disagree. I have heard all of this all of my life – I could have predicted your words – Love the sinner and hate the sin, right? I don’t want to work against the kingdom of God in any way, so I think disengaging in this conversation may be the best way to go.
JimMahaffey shalamar1516 livnfrog Christians and any other religious fanatics are granted the freedom to practice their religion as a courtesy, they have absolutely NO right to affect others with their beliefs. Freedom of religion includes freedom FROM religion. The very foundation of the American ideal is that all men are created equal and we as a society have chosen to respect the rights of every human to live their lives freely and happily, if someone chooses to abuse waive their rights to happiness by targeting and verbally abusing a specific group of people, he or she is granting every other person the right to counter their opinion. Bigotry is bigotry and hate is hate regardless of wether or not it is based on a 3000 year old Sci-Fi novel.
I don’t think The blogger was attacking all Christians on a whole. I think they were referring to the back of the woods bible thumpers who get off on judging others. I think this Duck Dynasty guy Phil honeslty believes he was not being harmful or judgmental in his comments but that is the problem. When people are to ignorant to realize that they are racist or homophobic. Im sure slave owners thought they were the nicest owners since they didn’t beat their slaves. That doesn’t change the fact wrong is wrong. And telling someone who/how they love is wrong. Plain and simple.
MatthewBattershellI totally agree with you. I am still a little appalled at the “Christians” that don’t believe this has anything to do with Freedom of Speech or Freedom of Religion. It does and it does in a big way. This is how it starts. A little by little, they chip away here and there until there is nothing left. It might be today it’s A&E suspending Phil, but tomorrow it could the government not allowing any mention of God on TV or radio. We can’t sit back and allow it to happen.
GarrettVascil DeanRice HillaryThomasWatkins Have you read the whole interview? Phil said exaclty that! He stated that it was not his place to judge, that is left to God. You are making Phil into someone that he definitely is not, and you would understand that if you read the whole interview.
SFB2009 RobDrury that is a new age belief, Jesus is the truth. There is one way to God and many ways to hell.
AngelaPayitforwardAyers, the Robertson’s don’t need a paycheck from A&E….they were millionaires BEFORE the show ever aired! If anything, the Robertson’s saved A&E! They were a nothing channel until Duck Dynasty!
And this is why Christians are losing the battle. We have too many people like this are only so scared of “hurting someone’s feelings” instead of speaking and standing for the God given truth. Phil did not judge anyone. In fact, he said that he leaves that up to the Almighty. He simply quoted scripture. And now he is being punished for it. This is not something that we should just sit back and watch happen. Yes there are many issues, that we as Christians, should stand for with the same force that we are standing for this one, but it doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t stand for this one. And lastly, when did “vagina” and “anus” become bad words? They are parts of the human body! He didn’t use any fowl slang terms for them. It’s just really sad that so many people feel that they have to be PC to show “love” to the lost. We are supposed to love the sinner but hate the sin. How will they ever know they are lost and need Jesus if we don’t share what the bible says?
The KKK uses the same bible as Phil to rationalize all of their beliefs, where is the Christian uproar in support of the often oppressed and censored views of the KKK? Isn’t that oppression of freedom of speech? Isn’t that religious persecution? Or do we look at them different because they use their religious beliefs to discriminate and direct hate to a specific group of people?
Lots of good points in this post. Our church culture has come to reflect the American culture in its love of celebrity. We equate celebrity with validity. http://choosetotrust.com/2013/03/lazy-christianity
WordOGod Are you stupid? That’s really your argument?
First they came for the ducks, and I said nothing …
Oh honey. I’m a happily married straight woman with a baby on the way. I love God and Jesus and the bible, and I love good people who do try every day to do good unto others. I love too much, I’m heartbroken most the time because I just love too much. I just don’t know what you are talking about. I love hearing others opinions, and I love speaking about God. Actually speaking about God and praying to God are my favorite things in life. Phil Robertson can speak, but I don’t like what he’s saying. As a Christian! I think it reflects poorly on Christians. He can talk, but just like A&E I don’t want someone else’s words to be assigned to me. Sorry honey. I love Muslims and Jews and gays and fat people and old people and ugly people. Oh, I love so many people.
karlamdavis nexu87 mckenzieja Phil wasnt condemning.
“You too cannot serve the master of condemnation and love”
You have scripture for this?
Condemning and saying something for what it is are two different things. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, even sugarcoating scripture. This generation is a stiff necked one that will turn a blind eye to scripture and God because of the arrogance and pride, not because of people like Phil.
Quoting scripting is NOT hate speech, is NOT intolerant. Why do you think they stoned Stephen? They hated what he had to say! Same with this generation. Stephen didnt sugarcoat it. Or wrap the gospel in a fuzzy little pink blanket with love spelled out on all of it.
The fact here is that people in America, including homosexuals, already KNOW about the gospel. You act like they never even heard of Christ. They have. And they have chosen to reject him. But this is not a witnessing issue, this is a freedom of religion/expression issue. Phil was suspended because of his expression of faith. If A&E wants to cancel the show.. I say good because they don’t deserve the money it comes with.
karlamdavis nexu87 mckenzieja
and yes, he did quote/paraphrased Corinthians. Read the article again.
We are in the last days and it says in the book of 2 Timothy where it says “some in the last days will depart from the faith (not reject the faith, but depart from the faith) giving into seducing spirits and doctrines of demons.” So if a Christian believes homosexuality is ok, that would be a departing from the faith. Here is a question is homosexuality a sin? From God’s standpoint it is, so is lying, stealing, and murder, read Galatians 5:19-21 it has a list of sins, which is what Phil Robertson was quoting . Here is another question. How many people actually read and interpret the Bible correctly. It is called Hermeneutics, which is how we interpret the bible, and it means literally interpretation of the Bible. The Bible is God’s word to us, and does not contradict itself. So, we have the opportunity to read the masters words and live by them by the power of Christ and his Holy Spirit.
However, today we have an enemy that we can not see, and all his minions with him. The Bible says in Ephesians “our war is not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, powers, against the rulers, and against the authorities, and spiritual hosts of wickedness in high places. People are not the enemy. It is because of the fall of Adam and Eve, that we are conduits of a fallen nature. As a result we have a warfare against our flesh, and they are, the flesh, the world, and the Devil. That is why we need Jesus and adoption into his kingdom, his word (the Bible), and the Holy Spirit. By the way Jesus says come to me as you are. , So, many Christians are being sanctified, which means in our flesh we will never be perfect. There are 31,110 verses in the Bible, and to interpret all those scriptures correctly to where the Bible does not contradict itself means that proper study and illumination of the Holy Spirit must be there.
Especially wrath!
SFB2009
You say the church is not persecuted in America? Please explain why the Obama Administration is continuing to sit on their hands regarding Pastor Saeed jailed in IRAN?
You’re blind to the oppression.
The comments on this site have just reminded me why I left the Christian Church. While you are all praying for my soul, I will be helping the less fortunate, and the gays, and my disabled neighbor, who is Muslim (OMG!!!!!!). You hold so true to a book written by man thousands of years ago; to scriptues and phrases but you forget all about the actual meaning of Christianity. It’s quiet sad.
You need to get out and see the world, honey. Educated and confident men who love and fear God are unhappy with Phil’s remarks. We’ll be praying for you!
MatthewBattershell Best reply yet, very well said. The interesting thing about this issue is that I’ve seen non-Christian folks defend Phil’s statements and put it into correct context, where as “Christian” folk are up in arms and taking the ‘friendship with the world” approach and calling truth hate speech. This sure has proven to be a polarizing subject.
Lulu_0318 Your works won’t save you, you know that if a Christian who dies and commits apostasy (walking away) and does not repent of it before they die will suffer a worse punishment in hell than a non-believer. You have been hurt in the Church, understandable. However, why walk away from Jesus and his people, who are imperfect. Are you perfect?
MonicaBTweet MatthewBattershell Right on. We’re already more than half way there, just think of the change in the last few decades. Evil never rests. And when it doesn’t find what it wants, it goes looking for more.
SFB2009
1. Phil’s suspension is not only an attempt to silence his religion but it also sends a message to OTHER Christians who may attempt the same thing. Phil wasnt “Imposing” his beliefs, he was interviewed by press and was asked a direct question. Nice try though.
2. Secularists are ALWAYS offended by ANYTHING Christian.
Sounds like you are in denial.
JoeNCA AndrewImlay
Joe — 🙂 I can’t believe they actually SAID that in Loving vs. Virginia. That was what, fifty years ago?!! Call me a naive white boy.
Yeah, and we see again the old “I know God’s intention” reasoning, aka “natural law”, aka “just look at peoples’ bodies! It’s obvious!” I recently read a dispatch to politicians from an allegedly brilliant new conservative thinker, supposedly explaining in *secular* terms why gay marriage is objectively bad for society. It started off with, we can’t reproduce, which is the “intended” use of male and female genitalia, and he squirmed past the question of “who is doing this “intending”? (0f course, God) because he had to keep it “secular” …. So reproduction was the objective good of marriage… Then he had to make a bunch of exceptions for infertile (straight) couples, post-menopausal couples, and couples who know how to use birth control correctly. Hilariously, he did this by asserting that while their sex wouldn’t produce offspring, their sex was still reproduction-ISH. Gay sex however isn’t sufficiently reproduction-ish. So no marriage for us! And look, a totally objective, secular justification!
I thought, am I really that smart, or are the people calling him smart actually not so smart?
Anyway, I stumbled across Thomas Aquinas a week or so later, and lo and behold… There’s nothing (theologically) new under the sun.
Above Loving: why do Malays exclusively get their own ethnicity, but no color? Malay isn’t a color. Couldn’t Virginia’s lawyers figure out what color Malays were in time for the trial? And notice the absence of the color brown. What’s with that? I have a feeling this whole thing was rushed before the trial.
“And but for the interference with his (God’s) arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages.” Is this as close as Virginia will ever come to publicly regretting its participation in the slave trade? Conveniently, a century after it was over. I wonder if any abolitionists thought to use this argument…
Andrew.
I believe the reason Christians are “in an uproar” is that there IS persecution here. No, not the kind you referenced (and hopefully that you get impassioned to action about daily – otherwise your comments are simply as hypocritically as those you judge so easily). No, not the same kinds of persecution. But if you will recall – persecution for early Christians started in the marketplace. It was a social persecution before it grew into a physical one. I think that is what is upsetting to believers. We see what is coming on the horizon.
It is not as if Phil Robertson just called a news agency and started this conversation. GQ posed the question in an interview setting. They WANTED to have an answer that would be juicy/controversial. And they got what they asked for. They expected him to speak the Truth (whether or not people assent to something there still remains an absolute truth). I, personally would not have chosen the same words he did but there is a reason he has been so captivating to audiences and that none of us have our own reality show. They chose this family for a reality show because they have opinions, are interesting characters and people connect with them. That’s another reason people are upset. Not everyone may agree with them but their charisma is undeniable. And like most charismatic people – they will rub some the wrong way BECAUSE of their opinions.
As far as your article goes, I find that you, like most bloggers, believe you stand in a position of wisdom and authority over the “rest of us” in order to prove how witty, ecumenical and culturally savvy you are while still maintaining some peripheral version of the Truth. Additionally, wise readers (and authors) need to use “Duck” in place of an expletive. in my opinion, it belittles your arguments and weakens your persuasiveness.
If you believe this man is being persecuted for his beliefs, shouldn’t you and he be rejoicing? (Mt. 5: 10-12)
and I don’t see you caring about murders deaths, starving children when you Matthew Paul Turner are watching your survivor / real house wives/ kardashian crude on tv…when you drive in your fancy car and see a homeless person do you jump out and offer him to come to the comfort of your home…practice what you preach..Phil Robertson is awesome, he’s a Godly man, who said what he thought and believes, why is it so bad when he does it…when I have to watch my tv promote homosexuality, selfishness, crime, Phil is right this world is getting so blinded, & headed for trouble..
You write: “Secondly, remember this is about a reality TV show, a meaningless TV show about https://matthewpaulturner.com/2008/07/13/a-family/ of outspoken rich hunters. It’s just entertainment, people! Some Christians seem to believe this is a really important thing to be angry about. But it’s not.”
Do I detect some dislike for hunters? You sound a bit dismissive of “outspoken rich hunters.”
As a Christian and the wife of a (middle-class) hunter, I enjoy watching Duck Dynasty because they are, by far, the people most like my family on TV. Among the countless shows on TV, among all the good and bad, it’s nice to catch a glimpse of something – however silly or exaggerated – that looks and sounds a bit like people I know in real life, including saying grace at family dinners.
Yes, it is entertainment. And yes, Phil Robertson was blunt and undiplomatic in how he stated his beliefs. But I can be unhappy about his suspension, fascinated by the whole kerfuffle, AND outraged and concerned about people dying in the Sudan, children trafficked in southeast Asia, and babies aborted in our own country. None of those things are mutually exclusive. And you’d be much more persuasive if you didn’t sound so self-righteous about how much better your priorities are than those of Phil’s fans.
Entertainment shapes culture, and is in turn shaped by our culture. Why should right-wing Christians or hunters either one opt out of that process?
SupportforPhilThere have been no censored comments. Everything Phil said is out there for public consumption. He said it. GQ printed it. His employer then announced that, based on these comments, “we’re not sure we want to continue doing business with you.” That is completely fine, and completely within the company’s right to do so. If it wasn’t Christianity, and instead it was Satanism, and a network put a guy on hiatus while decisions were made, would there be the same uproar? We’re allowed to say/write/present anything we want in this country, and we will not be fined or prosecuted for it unless it creates a material threat to public safety. That does not mean there might not be social consequences. Conservatives are all about personal responsibility. You’d think they’d get that.
Lulu_0318 that’s awesome, I will also be helping the less fortunate, gays, neighbours and my muslim friends along with my one vegaterian friend, while praying for you, and all those I help and have yet to meet. Maybe you can enlighten me as to the true meaning of Christianity….if you knew the truth, you would not have turned from your personal relationship with Jesus Christ. & He “Jesus” still loves you even though you run..enjoy your free will..
EricBoersma AndrewImlay
Eric — I read it, bro! I’m grinning like a fool. Thanks so much. I’m proud to call you my brother too. Husband, though…I’ve already made a covenant to forsake all others 🙂
Andrew.
bornagainLulu_0318 who is to say she is walking away from Jesus. Sorry but you can not believe in organized religion but still have faith in God and Jesus
JimMahaffeyBoozleford There was ZERO action taken against Phil Robertson for his religious beliefs. Phil’s religious beliefs have been public knowledge for years and have made A&E a whole lot of money. There is no tenet of Christianity which requires talking in graphic terms about the relative desirability of Vagina vs. Anus. There is nothing in Christianity which requires anybody pine for the days of Jim Crow. Phil’s being a Christian is not new information for A&E. His being a problem IS new information. We’ll see how they deal with it.
JeffCraven I’m sure he is rejoicing! I think they have said over and over how thrilled they are that they have the spotlight – even for a few moments – in order to share Christ. I have read an interview where they referred to knowing this would not be a long-term gig. As far as me rejoicing – I am, in some ways, glad that this has happened. I think any type of persecution has a double-edged sword of emotions.
JimMahaffeyKentStraithSupportforPhilI seriously doubt that it is. For one thing, it’s entirely dependent on what the language of the contract is. For another thing, Phil was not talking about the saving grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the need for repentance and belief in the power of the Blood. He compared gay people to a whole list of terrible things. That makes him a problem employee. I have no doubt if this is the end of the show, they’ll all get paid off. In a contract situation, I have every right in the world to fire you because you’re black, gay, a pretty lady, or because I don’t like your shoes. I just have to pay off the contract. I have no idea what Phil’s contract states, and we’ll see how it plays out.
ElizabethMunizsanchezbornagainLulu_0318 lulu said she turned on her faith, walked away
bornagainLulu_0318 Sorry I understood that she walked away from the church Not God or Jesus
Real Christians are washed, regenerated, sanctified daily by the Holy Spirit, and will be glorified when we stand before Christ, if they stand strong and don’t commit apostasy while on earth, by grace we have been saved THROUGH FAITH. No Christian is perfect in the flesh. However, God calls us to a life of holiness that can only be attained by the inner working of the Holy Spirit, so you must be born again for this to happen. I am tired of hearing even Christians talking about there works and being a good person. Yes, Jesus produces this stuff in us after we are saved. But we are still fallen and subject to sinning from time to time. If that wasn’t the case then there would be no need for a savior and sending of the Holy Spirit to guide us. Also it says in 1 John 1:9 “that if you confess your sins he is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (this is to the church he speaking to, not to the unbeliever, unless that unbeliever becomes a believer). Then it says in 1 John 2:1 where John is speaking to the Church again about sin where he says by inspiration of the Holy Spirit that “I write this letter to you little children so that you may not sin, but if you do sin you have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ the righteous. We must forgive 70 times 7 in a day. This of course is a figurative statement meaning that we must forgive everyone all the time, this is also to the believer as well, because the non-believer is unregenerate (not born again) and can not comprehend these things. Jesus says “if you do not forgive my Father in Heaven will not forgive you. This is to the believers as well” He was talking to believers. You get it. I don’t care about Duck Dynasty. However, Phil Robertson was not wrong about his comment on homosexuality. Jesus says forgive. By the way to all believers on hear. Trying to rationalize the precepts of the Christian faith with a non-believer is not going to go over well. Why, because they unfortunately don’t believe the Bible. It was written by man and inspired of God the Holy Spirit. Say that to a non-believer and watch there response.
fishb JeffCraven Share christ by making yourself look like an ignorant biggot!? I’m sure that’s going to win a ton for the kingdom!
RobDruryKristenAdamsTwo things, Rob:
1. GQ magazine has no relationship to A&E. A&E is a joint venture between Disney and The Hearst Corporation, which also own Esquire (a direct competitor to GQ).
2. Jesus told His followers that they would be persecuted in His name, and each of us must pick up a cross to follow him. Why are we SO surprised when that happens occasionally?
3. This isn’t persecution. It’s sad that in America, Christians have confused “persecution” with “not getting everything we want.” Visit China. Find a church. Then come back and talk about persecution.
Hi Matthew, I posted this comment on reply to someone posting your blog. I thought I would share it here for you. Thanks for taking the time to read it. God Bless you!
————————————————————
Matthew
Rabaszkiewicz, thank you for sharing the blog. I actually kind of want
to write a counter blog because I think this guy totally missed the
boat. I don’t have time to write a well crafted blog with all my points,
it may never happen so I am going to throw out a few, quickly, on here.
Again, i know I can make my points more clear if I had a bit more time
to flush out my thoughts better, so please forgive any mistakes or
unclear thoughts as I give it a quick run…
First
major error, or even ‘fallacy’, is that brings up world hunger and
starving children to and compares the two and says we should not be
talking about – homosexual lifestyles (cause that’s what this is
about), until we feed all the hungry children and all the homeless have a
home, then we can work on other ‘less’ important issues. (On a side
note someone tried this ‘Poor argument” with Jesus and tried to say we
should be using the money for the poor. Bam, what did Jesus say? “The
poor you will always have… me you will not.” In short, it seems clear
Jesus was saying ‘yes, we have poor people, but there are other
important issues too’ and even MORE IMPORTANT ISSUES than the poor. What
was Jesus not compassionate to the poor? I think we know the answer to
that. In short Jesus said the “poor agreement” was indeed a “poor
argument”.
I
am so proud of all the Christians for talking about this and for NOT
BEING SILENT out of fear of ‘hurting others feelings’. This touches on a
second major error in the blog. The over emphasis on FEELINGS and over
looking the greater issue of what is right and wrong. How would a child
turn out if a parent was only concerned about their child’s feelings?
They would never go to school, stay up all night and eat junk food all
the days of their life. I could expound on this but you get the idea.
YOU HAVE TO PUT FEELINGS aside and do the right thing. Yet in our
culture, we have been forced to be THE CHURCH OF NICE, because we have
been told again and again and AGAIN… in movies, the media, songs,
billboards, in short we are flooded with the message that… we are
“haters” or “judgmental” or we “discriminate” if we say certain things
are wrong. How else do you think “gay marriage” has been allowed in a
predominantly Christian country? Because they have kept us SILENT out of
FEAR! Propaganda with an intention. From the sounds of it, I am
guessing this guy who wrote the blog is a Christian as well, but his
article is full of the effects and fruits of shaming Christians for
speaking out against homosexual lifestyles. This is their tactic to
break us down and it has worked. But we need to start seeing it for what
it is. When we see a “Duck” lets call it a “Duck”.
The
next fallacy that is used on us Christians is one called “Ad hominem”
arguments, that is… ATTACKS AGAINST THE PERSON. Off the top of my head
I can’t remember if this article touched on this but its important to
bring up. In short they don’t focus on the truth of the point being
made but begin to attack the faults, short comings and personal sins of
the messenger. I am sure this is coming for Mr. Duck very soon. Just
watch. Then we see that ever popular word thrown out… “hypocrite” who
are you too judge? Are you free from sin? Well then don’t throw any
stones then. They get us to be SILENT because “we are not perfect”.
Yes, it is true we are not to throw stones. We are not to Judge
PERSONS, but we can judge actions and say they are wrong. We do it all
the time and we should, God gave us reason and commandments and laws. We
should live them and even when we fall short, we should let others
know them. But this is another deep topic that I won’t expound upon here
but in short I will say… We MUST NOT BE SILENT anymore out of FEAR.
And pray for the grace to discern when this propaganda of has crept into
our line of thinking, our choices… and even our blogs, even tho well
intentioned and perhaps unnoticed.
Yes,
this IS… about FREEDOM. To downplay this attack on freedom is very
dangerous. Yes, Mr. Duck says things “a little rough” I agree. But
that’s his style. He is a rough dude, check out the beard. But don’t
judge him for it.
Our Freedoms are being taken away from us left and right. The Catholic
Church was one of the largest Adoption facilitators in the country until
we were forced to give kids to homesexual couples. We refused and they
shut us down through financial punishments. Why did we allow this to
happen? Where are the Christian voices, voters? Why are we not speaking
of this. Soon the same thing will happen with marriages. We will be
forced to administer homosexual marriages. We will refuse. We may get
more financial punishments or we may even someday be put in Jail for
“hate crimes”. A baker in CO was asked by a gay couple to make a cake
with and put a gay couple on the top. He refused and was taken to court
and the judge ordered it. How is that FREEDOM? I own a website company
and I can’t imagine the day I am forced to do a homosexual website or be
punished by the law if I don’t. Its already happening, our FREEDOMS are
being taking away. We are no longer FREE to speak about what we believe
is right! Mr. Duck is a prime example of this again… and woe to us if
we continue to be SILENT and don’t talk about it and work to do what is
right. I think its a HUGE sign of HOPE that Christians are FINALLY
speaking up about it. Let’s give Mr. Duck a huge wave of support… and
OTHERS will follow. We need more leaders, more public figures to step up
to the plate. They need to see our support for them… and TOGETHER we
can slowly bring back morals to our beloved America, morals what has
slowly been taken away from us because we have been silent out of fear.
Matthew
Paul Turner, if somehow you read this and you are indeed a Christian,
then I am kindly requesting that you “prayerfully” reconsider your
position and even be open to taking down your blog post. It would take a
profound amount of humility but indeed it would be an amazing sign of
character showing that you are willing to reconsider your position when
presented other views. Together let’s work to promote a culture of
Christians who are not afraid to “Speak The Truth… IN LOVE”. –
Ephesians 4:15
In His Mercy,
Ed Vizenor
DeanRice I agree Dean! That is the alarming subject at hand here: CHRISTIANS attacking Christians for standing up while the majority of Americans Christian or not, support Phil and freedom of speech.
What this suggests is that the American Church has been drinking at the fountain of political correctness so long, she cannot distinguish the tainted water any longer.
ElizabethMunizsanchez bornagain Lulu_0318 Exactly, she left the Christian church…apparently to pursue a christian lifestyle. Good call!
Chester12 Lulu_0318 She said she left the church, not turned on her relationship with Jesus. Big difference.
usmc1973 WordOGod Well, he has a point…..
mckenzieja I can’t help but to think you and I are not considering the same Bible here. By the way, way to not address the the whole issue I brought up of other sins that people CHOOSE (since you just love that word) to ignore (i.e. do not divorce, honor the sabbath). Sins that EVERYONE commits and that the church (and your loved Phil has discounted). That’s in the Bible too,you know.
To prove my point against your evident misinformation and absurd comments on homosexuals supposedly knowing the gospel and ignoring it, here are a couple quotes:
Romans 13:8Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.
Ephesians 4:2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love,
1 Peter 1:22 Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart,
1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.
And my favorite, by Pope Francis himself: “the proclamation of the saving love of God comes before moral and religious imperatives.”
For the record, Phil was not suspend because of “his expression of faith.” People of faith aren’t downright hateful and exclusive of who receives the Kingdom of God. If you care so much for this generation, and don’t want to see it “turn a blind eye” to God, then maybe your need to rethink your approach. It’s not only bad interpersonal communication, but also bad faith.
Hopefully some transformation will happen in your life soon. You know, since I’m not into sugarcoating the “wrong” beliefs of others.
You may not care for the way Phil spoke and that is certainly your right as it was his right to state his. You seem to be so greatly offended by his remarks but don’t seem to have a problem offending with the title of your article. If your desire is to caution us in our words why did you choose the words you chose in your title. It is obvious what you were alluding to and I think it is very offensive. Mr. Robertson was being interviewed and asked some questions. SO, he answered them. If you had been asked to be interviewed, would you have answered the questions with YOUR opinion? Why does it seem that the only time I see comments about something said by a Christian they are negative. If this interview in GQ had been with ANY other celebrity there would have been nothing but praise for his courage in speaking his convictions. BUT, because Phil is a Christian, some other Christians, want to throw him under the bus. Do I think some of his word choices could have been different….YES….but he expressed HIS faith…..HIS. He is entitled to do that. If you don’t agree with what he says, that’s OK. However, you complain about some of his word choices and turn around and do something just as offensive. What do you think that accomplishes? If you are so irritated by the publicity he is getting WHY are you even writing this article. You are just contributing to the publicity. The Robertsons are just people. They started with nothing and built a very successful business. They love the Lord and try to serve him the best they can. They aren’t perfect….but, I imagine, neither are you…or me. We are just forgiven.
WhitneyHempsey Actually, no. What I hoped to call attention to was that if Christians believe this man is in fact suffering persecution for the sake of his faith AND they want to follow and obey Jesus, then the only response is to rejoice, not bemoan the fact that non-Christians do not share their beliefs.
SarahHatfieldDewhurst Well, then it must be true. I am not against you but the comments on here are nothing but little attacks on Christians.
Didn’t appreciate the word “duck” instead of the f-word. Not very funny.
Really? You’re worried about one ‘rich hunter’ offending the homosexual crowd – when the rest of the country tiptoes around their feelings? Wow. Wishy-washy and preachy at the same time.
EdVizenor From the very start you missed the point. Take off your goggles and read the article again. Your response is foolish for the simple fact that you are not responding to what the author wrote, but to what you erroneously interpreted his words to say.
What saddens me is that as a Christian, Phil chose to use a platform like GQ for these topics.. The blatant racism is not appropriate, but honestly – neither is the casting of stones towards the gay & lesbian community.. Have we forgotten the way Jesus responded in these situations? I am so tired of people using their platform to further divide, when the bible commands LOVE.. “cultural Christians” have some how affiliated right-wing, conservative politics with the ways and acts of Jesus.. they also have blanketed themselves with such fear, they are blinded to how off base they have become. How many of you casting your stones have really dealt with your own sins? Amazing, the people I know who actually deal with their stuff are not typically the ones yelling & fighting this area… But truly, how many of us can say we are blameless? If we are going to cherry-pick one area, then we need to highlight the others- equally! the ones that we deal with in our darkest moments, in our minds, and in our actions aren’t exempt, and how would it feel if every time we turned around, we were reminded about the corruption of our personal area of sin without the light of the gospel communicated with it?.. I am so tired of the fear, and ignorance that is fueling those claiming to be Christians… I am so tired of Christian’s looking for people to raise on to a pedestal & then totally losing it when they happen to fall.. I get the concern of “freedom of speech” to an extent, but A&E has the “right” to suspend this man.. He represents them, they signed onto that when they agreed to do the show.. Yes, He speaks His faith & views on a regular basis, but if A&E feels like the line was drawn with the racist words & the emphasis on “homosexuality” – then that’s their deal. if you have an opportunity to reach millions of people, choose your words.. I am not saying “deny your faith” – i am saying, if people were to be left with a snapshot, would you rather them walk away hearing yet again, the exact same use of the bible to further condemn a group of people OR would you rather them walk away with verses that make them want more? God doesn’t need us to protect His reputation.. I would rather point to the grace and mercy that is the Gospel, all based in abounding love- than to key verses peppered throughout that speak into a point I am trying to personally make. I am so tired of the American Christian’s having their head completely in the sand.. By constantly yelling about the denial of certain parts of the Bible, they themselves are doing the exact same thing – if people were to try and turn it around, and “risk” showing the love that Jesus commands – i wonder what would happen.. i wonder what revival would take place? what would happen if Christian’s actually pointed people towards, instead of away from God? I am not up for the fight on this & I am honestly not saying one way or another what I think of Phil.. I just wish as Christians in the US- we’d stop & look at what we’ve become..
EdVizenor the church also covered up years of sexual abuse. why? because it wouldn’t look good for the higher ups if they lost congregation. So it is kinda ironic that they refuse to help loving homosexuals give homes to children but its ok to put pedophiles as head of congregations or deaf/mute boys schools. Even after they have gotten caught. I think people have a hard time swallowing what the Church commands when They themselves do everything to cover up their own deceit and lecherous behavior.
eh05 Respect.
SarahHatfieldDewhurstYou are very self indignant Sarah. Next time you ARE ASKED A QUESTION about sin, and respond by giving your honest, loving faith-filled response, we’ll tell people you were using it for “self righteous purposes.”
How can you even make that claim? What evidence do you have Phil is manipulating Scripture for self righteous claims?
Let’s look at scripture since you seem to be quite inept at explaining God’s word. Do you read it? Explain God’s question to Isaiah in Is6:8?
Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying:
“Whom shall I send,
And who will go for Us?”
Then I said, “Here am I! Send me.”
God COMMISSIONED Isaiah to SPEAK for him. Wow. Sounds like standing up for Truth to me. Remember when Paul said we are “Christ’s ambassadors?
“Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through
us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.” 2 Cor. 5:20
Sounds like standing up for God to me!
Regarding judgement, remember Isaiah? Well what did God want Isaiah to say to the people? Explain this!
9 And He said, “Go, and tell this people:
‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’
10 “Make the heart of this people dull,
And their ears heavy,
And shut their eyes;
Lest they see with their eyes,
And hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart,
And return and be healed.”
WAIT! Hold the phone people. God just commissioned Isaiah to speak for God, on His behalf, to God’s very own people, to make sure THEY COULD NOT RETURN TO GOD AND BE HEALED. Why? Because God was set on JUDGING His people.
This is why we don’t read scripture: because it is hard, it is tough, it hurts and cuts like a double-edged sword (Heb. 4:12)
Oh and let’s hear from the NT and Jesus so you don’t discount what I just wrote as “Old Testament Theology” (which makes no sense btw).
Right after Jesus said He came not into the world to judge it but to save it, He said these words:
“He
who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges
him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.” John 12:48
Wait, is Jesus contradicting Himself? No. Jesus came to save the Lost and the Sinners, of which we all are BUT at the same time never said judgement from a just and HOLY God would not come. It will come to those who are unbelieving evil doers. What will judge them? The WORD of God.
1st) It is about free speech it shouldn’t matter to anyone what he says if they don’t like it then tune out period… 2nd) meaningless TV show of a family of out spoken rich hunters? did you not read in your own post (the blacks worked for the farmer and I hoed cotton with them yea sounds like a rich family to me piles of money from way back in the family cause only rich people can afforded to go hoe cotton back then ) ( I bet some young people could learn a whole lot hoeing cotton 12 hrs a day for just one week sorry I don t believe many would make it to the end of one day) 3rd) He s supposed to feel sorry cause his words hurt a group of people s feelings but your gonna post that we are in some way responsible for 500 hundred deaths a day in the sudan? really these people have been killing each other for hundreds of thousands of years we are not gonna stop them by bringing them flowers and sitting down talking to them we would have to go over there and invade (that means them killing lots of us and us killing lots of them) then set up a new government and then when we left it would all go back to hell sounds like afghanistan to me) this sounds like a lot of crap to dump on someone just because they said he had a right to his own opinion. 4th) Consider if my own church would have phil as one of its own? I don t have a church per say but thats the american way we can go to any church you want to. (try that in the sudan ) there are many churches and each one believes something different a little or a lot but jesus wanted us to forgive which one am i supposed to condemn for being hypocrites? sounds to me like you. And lastly) it is not just Christians that preach virtues of good and right . Right is Right and you know it when you see it. it isn’t just held high by only Christians. and in the end he cast no stones at anyone that I can see.
“And we, those who declare the way of Jesus, need to care about that.” Question: did you care about offending people with the title of your blog post? Did you think up the title of your blog with Jesus in mind? Doubtful.
rvb1362 ignorance is bliss…
DirindaWestfallLacen if you have a sense of humour it’s a little bit funny
For those who keep claiming this is not about freedom of speech: will you actually reverse this situation and still claim the same? If not, then don’t bother claiming it. Can you imagine the hell that would have been raised by now if someone spoke in favor of gay marriage or was openly vocal on any other gay issue, and was subsequently suspended from their job?
You stated, “Your support of Phil and Phil’s messages, whether you mean it this way or not, is hurtful toward other people. And that should matter to us. Why? Because we are the ones who proclaim the grace and mercy and love of Christ. And Christ cares about those who are offended by Phil’s speech…we end up saying things that hurt or offend other people. And we, those who declare the way of Jesus, need to care about that. So please, before you support one rich celebrity hunter with your opinion, remember that your affections for DD might be deeply offending a large group of people. And if that doesn’t matter to you, that’s your problem, not theirs. Because as followers of Jesus, that should matter.”
Quite frankly, you’ve missed the point here, both Biblically and historically. Jesus calls his disciples to love like He did, yes. But He also calls us to hold one another accountable in Christian love. That does not translate to “not offending anyone who may disagree with you.” Jesus was radical. He didn’t fit expectations, and he offended those in the Church with his teachings and the way he lived his life. You know who he also probably offended? He probably offended the rich man when He told him to leave His possessions (the rich man walked away instead of following Him). He probably offended the Samaritan woman at the well when he called her out for not being married but having had several lovers. Jesus didn’t tiptoe around others in effort to love them; that’s not real love anyway. He loved them so much that he held them accountable for their sin, and He made a way for them to find freedom through truth, forgiveness and faith in the Father. The truth sets people free, not walking on egg shells around their feelings. When the truth is spoken in love, offense should be the last thing we worry about.
Like you said, let’s get our facts straight.
This reminds me of when the Dixie Chicks spoke out against GW Bush on stage. They certainly paid the price for voicing their opinion didn’t they? Not many were concerned about their rights at the time. Looks like the shoe is on the other foot.
SkydogIt’s not about freedom of speech at all. The First Amendment guarantees speech unrestrained FROM THE GOVERNMENT. Last time I checked, A&E was not the 51st state. There are consequences to speaking your mind irrespective of that Amendment, which is what happened here. If I was to reverse the situation, Phil would be praising gay marriage while working for the Westboro Baptist Church. This would have a similar consequence.
Get it now?
Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.
jlathem”Why does it seem that the only time I see comments about something said
by a Christian they are negative.”
Because people disagree with the content of the speech. It has nothing to do with the person being Christian; the commenter finds ignorance in the words themselves.
“If this interview in GQ had been with
ANY other celebrity there would have been nothing but praise for his
courage in speaking his convictions.”
Because people agree with the content of the speech. It has nothing to do with the person being a celebrity; the commenter does not find ignorance in the words themselves.
SJActress Skydog No don’t get it. A&E are not a moral based organisation which accepts people on the basis of their faith and on the basis of the teachings of right and wrong. Get it?
Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. As Gandhi said, “If it weren’t for Christians I’d be a Christian.” The kind of reaction America’s fundamentalists have given to this Duck Dynasty story is why I can’t say I am one.
akosterskiSJActressSkydogA&E is a company that needs to maintain a favorable public image. The majority of American society disagrees with what he says. Advertisers pull away. A&E loses money and viewers, the two things they require to remain solvent.
Now do you get it? Because if you don’t, I can’t help you. You’ll continue to have a flawed argument, and I’ll be off somewhere not caring about that.
frybaby12 What rights were violated then? People decided they didn’t want to go to a Dixie Chicks concert and get preached at about something they don’t agree with. They had every right to say what they did, they just didn’t realize who makes up their audience.
That’s very nice of you, and that’s what we do with the church too. But salvation it’s by grace and not by work Ephesians 2:8-9 so even tho all those thinks are awesome, a personal relationship with Jesus is what we really need and be part of his body, the church (that’s also in the Bible)
EdVizenor no one has interfered with this mans freedoms and the Catholic Church is also guilty of one of largest child molestation offenses in the world. I don’t see this in your defensive argument.
You mention “feelings” and parenting. You don’t mention empathy and self control. These are also admired traits imparted through child rearing. The freedom speech was exercised by the employers of Mister Duck when they fired him for not exhibiting either of the two traits I mentioned.
You also cherry picked the article to reflect what you wanted it to be about. Mister Duck’s comments were not only homophobic they were also racist in nature toward our fellow black Americans. You being a good Christian would agree fellowship is an important part of Christianity. I do not know if his comments were bore out of ignorance due to the isolation, he seems to live in based on his portrayal on A&E, to suggest this may be the issue.
My biggest concern with you comments is that you seem to think this is “go time” for homophobic beliefs and that you are looking for some sort of justification for you own feelings on this matter that you are becoming a minority voice for good reason. Your paranoid rantings are a little unnerving and I am more concerned about you teaching a child to hate another person created by God than I am for a loving gay family who endured all of haters and misinformed to help an unwanted child have a home.
No matter how sweetly you promote you message it is still one that is uninformed and filled with hate.
Politely
DMDP
Is it not our right to educate as gods messengers? Spread the word of god? Did Jesus not walk into the house of sinners and not preach to them. Did the pope not say the same thing that if a catholic priest once to be gay so be it who are we to judge. However the acts are wrong not the person. Yet the pope gets person of the year by time and the advocate(which is the oldest American gay rights magazine). Did Phil a former pastor not say the same thing. Behavior is sinful but not for us to judge. So why the difference in backlash. Because one lives in the backwoods just like a long time ago one was a carpenters son which nobody wanted to have a voice or let follow. Do we let him be crucified or say I stand with Phil because I believe its a sin just like adultery, or taking the lords name in vain.
I stand with Phil for my job is to educate and say ask for forgiveness for we all sin. We all do wrong and we are here to help each other. Don’t hide and deny Jesus and God like Saint Peter did. God Bless!
SJActress akosterski Skydog Oh I can totally understand thought fascism and the browbeating of people – that I get completely. It’s only a matter of professing the First Amendment and then not to applying it to voluntary members of your organisation whose employment and association is not tied in to a specific set of world views. Sure I understand, as do you 🙂 It’s perfectly transparent. 🙂
Some people were offended when Jesus drove the moneychangers out of the Temple, too. Unfortunate you weren’t there to tell Jesus to chill.
ElizabethMunizsanchez bornagain Lulu_0318 You can’t be a Christian and leave the Church. The Church is not a place you go on Sundays. The Church is the entire community of believers. And the universal Church is every Christian on the face of the Earth, and those who have passed on. Further, Jesus emphasizes the importance of community
Additionally, I would question what a Christian “leaving the Church” says about the nature of their heart – I can understand not agreeing with the doctrines and theology of some institutions (I am non-denominational for that reason and attend a non-denominational church) but if a Church preaches the Gospel and encourages the members pour truth into one another and hold each other accountable to walk a path that pleases God based on scripture then it’s a healthy church. There ARE unhealthy churches however.
I would encourage anyone who feels like theyve had a bad experience with a church not to walk away but to consider finding a healthy church. Read Mark Dever’s “9 Marks of a Healthy Church.” He’s the pastor at Capitol Hill Baptist Church in DC.
This is not an article telling Jesus to calm down, this is an admonishment of our response to the suspense of a public Christian who spoke crudely.
Lulu_0318 The true meaning of Christianity is not based on our good deeds. “Bornagain” is right in saying that it is through faith we are saved, not any works we can boast of. Ephesians 2:8-9 says “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; http://biblehub.com/ephesians/2-9.htmnot as a result of works, so that no one may boast.” If we were saved through helping other people we wouldn’t have needed Jesus. You can admire the principles of helping others, just as most world religions do, but how would that make you in need of Christ? Christ came and took the place that we ALL deserve on the cross, even the “good people” who help out others. Being nice to people doesn’t gain you salvation. It is only though the Gospel. That is the meaning of Christianity. Not good deeds.
JimMahaffeyfrybaby12And we don’t have the right to express our disareement with Robertson?
ElizabethMunizsanchez leading someone to believe they are living a life that’s okay because it “doesn’t affect me” isn’t loving, and that’s not what we are called to do as Christians. The gospel of Jesus Christ is offensive because it requires telling someone that they’re sinful. I’m sinful. You’re sinful. We all have sinned and fall short of God’s glory.
If someone hadn’t looked me in the eye out of love on October 30, 2012 and told me that because I’m a sinful human being I need a savior, and the Lord wouldn’t have opened my eyes to the truth, I wouldn’t be saved. Look at it this way – if someone was standing on the train tracks and was about to get hit by a train and you had the ability to pull them off the tracks, or at least TELL them the train was coming, wouldn’t you? Or would you let them get hit and die because “it doesn’t affect you whatsoever?” That’s not love. Letting someone know they are sinful (regardless of what sin it is, I’m not even talking about homosexuality here) and in need of a savior and that if they don’t accept Christ they risk eternal death is the most loving thing you can possibly tell someone.
After all, how much do you have to hate someone not to let them know they’re about to get hit by a train?
MatthewBattershellSarahHatfieldDewhurst I can’t tell if you are passionate about Jesus or ridiculing my comments. This is exactly the kind of behavior that turns people away from Jesus/Christians to begin with. Your language was accusatory, not helpful. If you want to be listened to in life, I suggest not saying things like “WAIT! Hold the phone people” and starting off by saying that “You are very self indignant Sarah” was not kind either. Keep on throwing scriptures at me in a harsh tone, that’s the way to spread the love of God.
That
is a terrible article. I feel the author is one of the reasons why
people feel like they can walk all over us. We aren’t supposed to defend
each other? We are not supposed to defend the Gospel by boycotting a
company who is hurting one of our own?
It
is about free speech and free market reactions. They reacted like
intolerant haters and we are removing our support. We don’t have to be martyrs on purpose, nor are we commanded to just sit by while others are persecuted.
This sounds like to me this author justifies his cowardice by playing the “turn the other cheek” card. It is easier to tell everyone to just sit down and be quiet than fight for moral or constitutional principles.
We are upset and prayerful for the
homeless, the persecuted, and the orphans. But A&E is not responsible
for those. Those issues have nothing to do with this. We don’t have to focus on just one issue at a time, we can fight many fronts.
This article is written very arrogantly and condescending.
Sin does not send us to hell. Good works don’t get us in to Heaven. I will always be a liar or a thief or gay. The only difference is that I have Christ between me and God. I am no better than anyone else and I can’t hold the world to a standard they don’t believe in. Jesus LOVED and was calm. He sought out these “deviants” and spoke to them in ways that they would understand. When was the last time I took the time to get to know someone to make Christ and His Grace relevant. I think an invitation out of love would be far more effective than condemnation and fear. Jesus defended the sinners.
I am a Christian. I am upset about this controversy, and have said so. What bothers me about what you’ve written is stating that Christians aren’t currently bothered by homelessness or starvation. Why would you assume I am not bothered by these things? I am. And I’ve done plenty about it, and will continue to do so. You have no idea what Christians are doing to help these situations…just because I have talked about what is going on with Phil Robertson, doesn’t mean that that’s all I care about.
frybaby12That makes NO sense. The Dixie Chicks said something the free market did not like, so the CUSTOMER quite supporting them. In this case an organization is bullying a man expressing his freedom of speech and religion. So, the company, like the Dixie Chicks is losing their customer base. No shoe on the wrong foot, just you not making sense.
Look. I like you. You are making great points. Jesus was absolutely radical and went against the grain to stand up for what’s right. But when did Jesus say, the most important thing for you to do is to loudly and consistently tell people that they are sinners? He wanted us to serve. He wanted us to wash the dirt from the downtrodden. He didn’t want us pointing fingers at the people we’ve decided are sinners–aren’t we all sinners?
And the comments Phil made are not exactly gospel. I don’t care if wants to only speak in verse for the rest of his days, only using the bible to express his thoughts, if that’s how he wishes to express himself. No one is saying he’s not allowed to speak. Only that it’s not good business for them to associate with him. It’s a business decision.
TXBelle915 Great point, and I can say the same (at least sometimes). I think what he means is that too many who are protesting A&E’s treatment of Phil aren’t doing enough of what you’re doing. God Bless you!
frybaby12The Dixie Chicks never had their rights violated. They said something unpopular with their audience and their radio programmers, and their audience and their radio programmers abandoned them. Live by the sword. Words have consequences. Then and now.
AnonEMouse123 Um…Jesus was clam sometimes and other times he was turning over tables with a whip. He loved people and then told them to “Go and sin no more.” If you read the whole article, you will see that Phil was very articulate, kind, but truthful.
Boozleford This is an article telling us that a strong reaction to sin is a bad thing. We need to get our priorities in order and direct our passion towards homelessness and starvation, and not offending people. Like “Jesus, get your priorities in order, don’t worry about the moneychangers when there are people starving in the Jerusalem slums! Those moneychangers provide an important service, and you offend the Pharisees when you upset those tables.”
Please read case study on the First Amendment and freedom of speech, and understand what it means. I am Christian and I will be praying for your ignorance to be lifted and for your heart to have understanding.
DirindaWestfallLacen Oh, you would have rather he said the f-word instead of duck? 😉 Anyway, I thought it was totally funny.
Boozleford It is still a freedom of speech issue. We are not meaning A&E broke 1st Amendment laws, but they are “punishing: him because he was expressing his religious views. And we who will not support that are using the Free market to make our feelings known by withdrawing financial support. And your passive aggressive self-righeous response is inspiring.
Oh the rest of the country is tip toeing around gay teens who are bullied so brutally that they commit suicide. The rest of the country is tip toeing around the gay sons and daughters cut off and cast out of their homes by ashamed parents. Wow yourself. God bless and I will pray for the grace and development of your bitter and ignorant heart.
JohnnyFurlongfrybaby12 An organization is allowed to do business with whomever they want. You can call it bullying if it helps you process it. The First Amendment protects us against ONLY the government. It does not protect us from companies, the media, or the public. We have a right to express ourselves. We do not have a right to express ourselves with no fear of consequence or social reprisal.
eh05 Yeah, and Jesus should have loved the moneychangers in the temple rather than whipping them.
fishb I thought the title was the best part! It sums up this whole situation quite well: Everyone calm down.
eh05 WOW! So, let me get this right. If we “Christians” have differing views than other people, we are not allowed to share those views on certain “platforms” and if we disagree with someone and share our opinion, than we are not really Christians. hhhmmm your logic is truly dizzying and vastly unscriptural. So, everything Paul wrote in Galatians would mean he is not a real Christain, I guess we better cut out Jesus as being a real Christian to, because he told people to “go and sin no more.”
Sp glad you cleared that up for us!
And Phil is a rcist too?
No, weak kneed, liberal, intolerant religious types like you is destroying the American Christian reputation.
http://www.rageagainsttheminivan.com/2013/12/duck-dynasty-first-amendment-rights-and.html
Well, every time I respond someone tells me I must not love Jesus so I just want to be clear that that’s not where I’m coming from.
Let me be aggressive. You are wrong. Phil was free to say things and he continues to speak. But a business cutting ties with him as a result is not a violation of freedom of speech. I have the freedom to tell my boss my opinions on vaginas and anuses. Even if she agrees, she has every right to suspend me.
Lulu_0318Seems to me you are the self-righteous intolerant one.
KentStraithJohnnyFurlongfrybaby12It is still a 1st Amendment issue. I am not saying A&E broke laws or should be held accountable by the government. But they are still basing their business decision on his Natural Law right of freedom of expression and religion, that is a free speech issue. A&E will then be effected by the Free Market decision.
The thing is Jesus preached everywhere he went teaching gods word, saying ask for forgiveness, teach his word, and yes he healed the sick and feed those that came. But the most important thing always to him was saving a person from sin. Did he not die on the cross for our sins. He didn’t die for the homeless or starving he died for our sins to be forgotten so we can enter the kingdom of the lord.
JohnnyFurlong While I don’t wholly disagree with you, I think the article’s premise is to cause such an outcry and the feeling in Americans to “feel the need to be heard” on arguably more significant issues.
Not necessarily to refrain from defending “one of you own,” but rather to collectively transfer this sort of outrage and passion for TRUE tragedies (no intention to minimize this situation).
nauqcajJohnnyFurlongLike free Pastor Asad from Iran!
JohnnyFurlongKentStraithfrybaby12 Due respect, but that doesn’t make any sense. This is NOT a First Amendment issue. You’re confusing the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America with the general concept of free speech by natural law. The 1st Amendment is not about how free speech is a good thing. The 1st Amendment means that the government cannot fine or sanction or prosecute you for the expression of your ideas. There is no mention of an employer/employee relationship. “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.” There is only one body constrained in that text: Congress. It simply does not apply to private entities, and in private disputes, people are not protected by it.
KentStraithJohnnyFurlongfrybaby12That is why I JUST edited my opening sentance from “1st Amendment” to Free speech. LOL. So, I do agree it isn’t a Constitutional issue as much as a Natural Law and free speech issue. Though that is what the 1st A is based on in regards to government and the People. So, yes, you are right in that respect.
JohnnyFurlong Point in case, I had to look that guy up. It would be odd for me to get outraged at what happened to Phil Robertson, and something like that is not on my radar.
The message here “I BELIEVE” is that it would make the world a better place if Christians ALWAYS expressed so much passion, and not seemingly selective or opportunistic chances to be “defenders of the faith.”
If the majority of Christians outraged at this has no knowledge of Pastor Asad, how can you take them seriously? Don’t that seem like a retro active, out-of-sight out-of-mind, type defender?
This is an article telling us that our reaction to the suspension of a celebrity who is Christian is a poor reaction. It is a poor reaction. This bit about the Pharisees is a false parallel–at least for me. I didn’t see Phil’s comments as beautiful or truthful with the possibility of offending others, I found them shortsighted and poorly expressed with the possibility of offending others. I didn’t want them to be the voice of Christianity. I don’t really care how offensive it was to people outside church, I found it offensive that this voice saying vaginas are more desirable was now also supposed to be my voice. I didn’t vote for Phil to be my mouthpiece.
SJActressSkydogIt is a Free speech and Free Market issue, not a 1st Amendment issue.You are right the 1st A is about the relationship of the Government and the governed. However, the 1st A is based on Natural Law of the Freedom of Speech. So, A&E is reacting to Phil’s expression of that freedom.
Boozleford Yet, you do not seem to care what you say offends those that disagree with you…based on your own arguemtn that we should not offend (appearntly at any cost) makes you a hypocrite.
Also we want to say Phil was crude because he talked about a real life experience that he had with African Americans. Yet a white women can write Uncle toms cabin and its called a treasured novel. Or tarantino can make a move with the n word and its a Oscar piece.
So he used the word vagina in a adult Magazine. Unlike Miley Cyrus and her performance on mtv movie awards which any one saw over and over. She was praised for it saying she broke the good girl mold.
A&E suspended Phil for answering a question about his faith saying what does he consider a sinful act. Yet a&e lets him talk about the Bible on the show and pray at meals. I mean even public school teachers have the right to reference the Bible. But a former paster can’t in saying what is a sin.
I see that as religious discrimination for how can you practice your faith and its okay as they film but not okay when on your time. For is this not also freedom of speech?
Boozleford My point is that being offensive – as Christ was, to some people, and as Phil was to sinners – is not of itself wrong. Yet that’s one of Turner’s main points – Phil shouldn’t be offensive. Christ’s example was that it’s okay to offend people, if you are doing it in order to stand up for holiness. Which is exactly what Christ did; is exactly what Robertson did. I stand for Phil Robertson and against mainstream media who would silence the truth of the gospel. Matthew Turner wants me, and the millions who stand behind Phil and the Robertson family, to shut up and tone it down. No difference than asking Christ to shut up and tone it down.
nauqcajJohnnyFurlongTo me, the article is written in such a poor way if that is his point. The over all impression is that we should not speak up or be angry about this and if we do, we must not be doing anything else and as Christians we need to just be quiet so as to not ”
Yet, what happened to Phil is indicative of an overall cultural persecution that puts unbalanced pressure on Christians who do not agree with a very slim minority of people to be quiet.
Just by reading some posts here about how us Christians need to quit “offending” people, it seems that is how they read it as well.
I mean, I literally said go for it, offend away, elsewhere in the comments. The act of offending is fine with me. Jesus was radical and said many things that certainly offended others. I just don’t agree with the comments Phil made and I’m anti Phils comments being put in my mouth. If I offend someone, I care deeply. I try to practice empathy and to see from others perspective. So, help me do that. What did I say that offended you?
JohnnyFurlong Boozleford A lot of “Christians” wish Christ had never shook up the establishment with the big scene in the temple, because they really like a pacifist Christianity. If we don’t get verbal and stand up for truth, then we get a country where it’s okay to demean, persecute, and oppress believers. That’s the ultimate end of what you and Mr. Turner are advocating here.
Agree to disagree then.
Boozleford I’m good with that. I’ve presented a viewpoint, so have you. I hope (honestly) I have not offended you with it.
SJActress akosterski Skydog it is their right to let the show go someone else will pick it up i bet because who says it the majority that doesn t like his veiws you? lol I don t go along with them either but I not gonna try and cram mine down his throat
Okay. This really escalated. I’m not saying let’s be good little church mice who never speak up, I’m saying it matters what we say when we speak up. And what he said was dumb. So speak up for your truth, and I’ll speak up–loudly passionately and with faith–in my truth, my God, my Lord. If me thinking a fellow Christians words are dumb and wrong and not good and not godly, I don’t get to be Christian? I have to agree and support every half wit who grew up in the Bible Belt, no matter what they say?! If he had said “eating lobster is a sin” I have to nod my head?
See, I think Phil was not speaking for holiness. I don’t like what Phil said. I love with all my heart what Christ said.
I have my priorities in order and can stand for truth and the right not to be censored in America. Have you ever heard of walking and chewing gum at the same time? We can serve the Lord and His kingdom and also fight the cultural battles where Christians are targeted ALL the time over what we believe (which is fine and we should expect it), but in a country that allows us to say what we believe and express it freely, we should be able to do it without repercussions. Very clever title, “Calm the Duck Down”, but I would rephrase it differently, “It’s time to get the DUCK up”! The greatest moral problems our nations has faced is because the church is not being the church and has also remained silent. So thanks for the article, but we’re getting the DUCK up and going to preach the gospel into all nations. . and we’ll also stand for truth in trying to protect the foundations from disintegrating at the same time.
Um. Yeah, you can’t say whatever you want wherever you want without any consequences. If you swear during certain hours on the news, you get fined. In the past people were fined for saying vagina on TV. If a Christian says “f***” on TV he will be fined. Not because he is a Christian. Because he said something on the wrong platform. If he says A&E is demonic, they can fire him. Not because he’s Christian but because he said something destructive to their brand. So. That’s how things work. Or, the whole world is trying to silence Christianity in a vast liberal conspiracy because we hate God and freedom. It’s one of those.
jalosekeAs the author stated, Robertson is free to say whatever he wants and he did in fact do so. No one, however, is obligated to give him a platform to speak. Freedom of speech, simply put, means the government can’t legally censor people, with some exceptions: that is as far as it goes. Freedom of speech does not mean the government has a positive obligation to provide you with the means of broadcasting your opinions to the masses and it does not have ANY relevance to purely commercial relationships such as Robertson’s contract with A&E.
As for your examples, relating things like Django and so on to this scenario is specious; Robertson is distinguished from films that portray institutionalized racism in a way that ultimately condemns it because he is advocating views of minorities that are derogatory and harmful. Referring to yourself as “white trash” does not excuse type-casting black people as “cotton pickers,” and relating homosexuality to bestiality is not any less hateful because it’s done under the guise of “faith”, which seems to be defined as a selective reading of the bible according to whichever barbaric prejudices the reader wishes to justify.
My knees are strong, your heart is weak. He is racist. He said racist things. Accept that your patron saint Phil Robertson says racist things and he can say them all he wants but we don’t have to cherish it. I pray all the time and then stand up for my beliefs. That’s a good way to get strong knees. That and jumping jacks:)
SarahHatfieldDewhurst If you have a child running into a busy street where a 15 ton Mack truck is barreling down upon him, would you care more about the tone of of you get him out of the street or YANK and YELL at him before he gets splattered on the truck’s radiator?
We have a culture that believes god-not God- but god is anything they want him to be, including tolerating of sin. Well, God didn’t tolerate sin which is why He sent Christ down to the earth for us.
However, you claim to know both God and & Phil’s motives without sharing factual evidence from the article (no where Phil hated or selfishly used scripture for his own gain) and you have no scripture reference for your stance on God.
So you are both assuming your interpretation for God and Phil without backing them up with any fact or context and you expect me to be delicate in communication? You Sarah are in the middle of a busy road on a very dangerous path. If you could grasp even one scripture thrown at you, then perhaps you would find solace.
JessN DirindaWestfallLacen As a Christian, I am not amused at someone’s using words that are clearly euphemisms for offensive words.
Paul stood up for Christ, sometimes what he said and did offended people. Sometimes he landed in jail but he still stood up for CHRIST!!!!
dougdell Jesus never was crude or harsh with sinners. It was those good upstanding religious folks (the money changers and pharisees) that usually got Jesus all worked up and had him weaving whips and tossing tables. Jesus showed love and mercy to sinners.
DirindaWestfallLacen JessN Thanks for the clarification, but I was just teasing. I don’t want to assume, but I’m guessing you don’t enjoy teasing, either. Hurrumph. Have a nice day!
JessN DirindaWestfallLacen I didn’t realize you were teasing. Yes, I do enjoy teasing, just not profanity. 🙂
JohnnyFurlong nauqcaj I think you should just read what’s there instead of going by impressions or assumptions. (English Lit 101).
dougdell Boozleford I think you assume too much about what MPT wants you to do.
Boozleford everyone but cantankerous old straight heterosexual guys? Encouraging other people to live in ways the Bible calls sin is NOT loving. I accept my friends, I don’t affirm their lifestyle!! Again, we agree to disagree! And Phil Robertson didn’t say anything about hating anyone this comes from the gay community!!!
bryanaustin67Before you start with the wicked detest the upright, consider this. Saying the most sincere, truthful statement in a tactless way, will create needless offense. When the Bible speaks about the Gospel is offensive,the presumption is that we haven’t presented it in an offensive way.
mburnett
JohnnyFurlong Yet you prove his point well.
DirindaWestfallLacen I think the point of use of the word “duck” was to provoke irony. You are a good example of people see what they want to. If you are more offended by an inference than what this man comfortably said to a reporter than you are exactly who this article is trying to reach. Getting stuck on a word that is not even a curse word and not acknowledging that this man spoke openly about his feelings towards others that are racist and bigoted did not phase you should give you pause. Instead you comment that you are offended by a curse word that is not even there.
Why is it the wrong thing to do, and we are told to “calm down”, if we stand up and say that the Bible does condemn the behaviour of homosexuality…and adultry, and lying, and greed, and….and…..?? Why should we calm down, and water down the message that God’s wrath is directed against sin in whatever form it takes? I don’t agree with you. Obviously. Yes, we are to love others. Yes, we are to be compassionate, and care about injustice. But the two are not mutually exclusive. One is to love AND to warn!!
JohnnyFurlong SJActress Skydog That was about the most stupid thing I’ve ever heard.
MatthewBattershellSarahHatfieldDewhurst
Romans 12:3-9 For by the grace given me, I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you. 4 For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function,http://biblia.com/books/niv2011/Ro12.9# 5 so in Christ we, though many, form one body,http://biblia.com/books/niv2011/Ro12.9# and each member belongs to all the others. 6 We have different gifts,http://biblia.com/books/niv2011/Ro12.9# according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying,http://biblia.com/books/niv2011/Ro12.9# then prophesy in accordance with yourhttp://biblia.com/books/niv2011/Ro12.9# faith;http://biblia.com/books/niv2011/Ro12.9# 7 if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach;http://biblia.com/books/niv2011/Ro12.9# 8 if it is to encourage, then give encouragement;http://biblia.com/books/niv2011/Ro12.9# if it is giving, then give generously;http://biblia.com/books/niv2011/Ro12.9# if it is to lead,http://biblia.com/books/niv2011/Ro12.9# do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully.
Love in Action
9 Love must be sincere.http://biblia.com/books/niv2011/Ro12.9# Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.http://biblia.com/books/niv2011/Ro12.9# 10 Be devoted to one another in love.http://biblia.com/books/niv2011/Ro12.9# Honor one another above yourselves.http://biblia.com/books/niv2011/Ro12.9# 11 Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor,http://biblia.com/books/niv2011/Ro12.9# serving the Lord. 12 Be joyful in hope,http://biblia.com/books/niv2011/Ro12.9# patient in affliction,http://biblia.com/books/niv2011/Ro12.9# faithful in prayer.http://biblia.com/books/niv2011/Ro12.9# 13 Share with the Lord’s people who are in need.http://biblia.com/books/niv2011/Ro12.9# Practice hospitality.
Mark 12:30-31
New International Version (NIV)
30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+12%3A30-31#fen-NIV-24704a] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+12%3A30-31#fen-NIV-24705b] There is no commandment greater than these.”
(Micah 6:8)
“He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God?” (NKJV)
AnonEMouse123When did Jesus defend the sinners?
MikeGonzales…I agree!! It just seems to me as if this writer is putting God in a “box”…God isn’t limited to just the “critical” hardships…He cares for it ALL…To trivialize the Robertson family as if God can’t work and change people’s lives thru them is simply not accurate and closed minded to God’s awesome power. A God who knows the numbers of hairs on our heads is concerned with what is happening in America with Christian beliefs being persecuted AS WELL AS the hungry, homeless and abused. God is not one dimensional or limited in power!
eh05He didn’t “use a platform like GQ” he was asked some gotcha questions and didn’t answer them very articulately or wisely. He did clarify his remarks much more eloquently later. (And if you snub your nose at that idea, know that Congressmen and Senators get to grandstand on the chamber floor on CSPAN and then “revise and extend their remarks” later so that what they *really wanted to say is “on the record.” pfffft
I liked what you have said except it was unnecessary to take a gratuitous swipe at Sarah Palin in the midst of your screed about love thy neighbor. You may disagree with her, but there is no reason to be so disrespectful about it, especially on a blog that sees itself as upholding Christian values. Totems for hatred, like your singling out of Sarah Palin, don’t promote the creed of love.
BenHouchenEdVizenorSorry, I’m with Ed. The original blog post by MPT was poorly written, incorrect and Biblically unfounded. There’s A LOT of twisted spirituality going around and this blogger is a major purveyor of it. Satan is a master deceiver…
Lulu_0318 Lulu, my church helps the less fortunate, welcomes gays, muslims, hindus and (gasp) athiests! We do, however, speak the truth–in love. We don’t water it down to “be nice.” That’s not to say we’re mean. We’re not judgmental, we’re a pretty loving bunch. But we still follow God’s word, not what modern culture believes. Anyone who doesn’t do, as you said, “help the less fortunate, and the gays, and my disabled neighbor, who is Muslim” is not truly following Christ.
Real Christianity, follows Christ’s teachings. #1 – Love God with ALL your heart, soul and mind. #2 – Love your neighbor as much as you love yourself.
It sounds from your disbelief that the Bible is God’s Word, written by Him, through the hand of man, like you left the church because you didn’t quite understand that.
It’s difficult to accept that there is an absolute authority to which we must willingly submit ourselves to, because then, by definition, we don’t get to be our own boss. But following the ways of the one who knit us together in the womb, is like following the manufacturer’s recommendations–we ignore them at our own peril.
I encourage you to find a real gospel centered faith community… people who are actually living out what Christ taught and God said.
MatthewBattershellNailed it, bro!
MatthewBattershellDeanRiceIt is DEEPLY disturbing to me how many of my Christian friends agree with the original post. I’m having a VERY hard time processing that.
You look ridiculous . He quoted bible verses, don’t know what church you belong to but in my church we’re encouraged to spread the word of God. As posted earlier ,you either didn’t read the article or you didn’t understand it.
I just have to say, I LOVE YOU!!!!
No bueno on your view…
No one should mind if we speak the truth of the scriptures! If they don’t believe in God, what do they care if His word or His people calls their lifestyle sin? It’s our faith, not theirs! I don’t mind if my muslim neighbor says were weird because God healed our son of muluscum contagiosum, she said you cannot pray to Allah for healing…because he doesn’t do that! Now of course I told her she should get a new God that can heal…like Jesus! Trying to get a Church to marry a gay couple, it doesn’t make sense…why do you want the definition of marriage, why do you want to be married in a Church/by a Pastor? Why would you want to force a Christian Company to bake you a wedding cake when they believe what you are doing is sin…why would you force them? The gay community is trying to get the approval of a God they don’t serve??? And if you don’t like that truth if it bothers you to be separated from God…if it bothers you to not be able to get married in His house or have His people bake you a cake….that just shows your internal warning system is still working and you know that to walk with God through this life you must believe in what His son did for you on the cross and then follow the truths in His Holy word!(NOT ALTERING THEM TO FIT YOUR LIFESTYLE) I’ve never understood why the gay issue is such a big deal, when there are so many sins out there to commit that sadden the Lord. Your sin as a gay person is not worthy of so much attention, my sins our just as great and they grieve God just as much. He isn’t asking you to repent more than me or me more than you. Sin is sin and the Lord say repent and be Holy as I am Holy!You go to hell for unbelief you didn’t believe Jesus died for your sins and you didn’t believe you should have to repent for anything. You don’t believe there is a Heaven or hell and then you die and go to a place you don’t believe in created by a God you don’t believe in. What people need is to believe in God, believe He sent His only son to die for you to be forgiven of your sins by God. Believe He can pull you out of any sinful lifestyle you don’t want to be in and believe that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. The coolest thing is no matter what anyone tells you you can get into Heaven even if you’ve been a heathen all your life! You will get the same reward as us all, even though we have served Him all our lives! See for yourself:The Parable of the Vineyard Workers
20 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 After agreeing with the workers on one denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 When he went out about nine in the morning,] he saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 To those men he said, ‘You also go to my vineyard, and I’ll give you whatever is right.’ So off they went. 5 About noon and at three, he went out again and did the same thing. 6 Then about five he went and found others standing around,] and said to them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day doing nothing?’
7 “‘Because no one hired us,’ they said to him.
“‘You also go to my vineyard,’ he told them. 8 When evening came, the owner of the vineyard told his foreman, ‘Call the workers and give them their pay, starting with the last and ending with the first.
9 “When those who were hired about five came, they each received one denarius. 10 So when the first ones came, they assumed they would get more, but they also received a denarius each. 11 When they received it, they began to complain to the landowner: 12 ‘These last men put in one hour, and you made them equal to us who bore the burden of the day and the burning heat!’
13 “He replied to one of them, ‘Friend, I’m doing you no wrong. Didn’t you agree with me on a denarius? 14 Take what’s yours and go. I want to give this last man the same as I gave you.(HEAVEN) 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my business? Are you jealous because I’m generous?’
16 “So the last will be first, and the first last.” BUT WHO WANTS TO GAMBLE WITH THEIR LIFE??? THAT IS WHY THE LORD SAY’S TODAY IS THE DAY OF SALVATION,CHOOSE LIFE THAT YOU MAY LIVE!!!
kellyvela Interesting perspectives……except that what your neighbor said is misguided. I am Muslim, and I can assure you we pray to God for healing in all circumstances. If we can’t ask God for healing, who can we ask????
I really do love you, Matt Turner. I really do.
Mr Turner, my first thought here is to tell you to shut the duck up about anything not actually related to the story. What does any of the other deflection points you used have to do with Mr Robertson’s situation. Yes there are things that on the worldly scale are more important. Unfortunately, you seem to be uneducated in the right to freedom of speech. Let me clarify, Phil did absolutely nothing wrong, he quoted scripture on sin. He didn’t condemn anyone, he didn’t say that homosexuals are evil, he didn’t make defamatory comments about any individual and yet he gets suspended because his thinking doesn’t fall in line with the socialist mainstream media. That, genius, is a direct infringement on his freedom of speech.
Homosexuality is a sin. Leviticus 20:13 says,
“If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.”
Very sorry that I don’t fall in line with Hussein Odipshit and his muslim (intentionally not capitalized because murderers and terrorists don’t deserve my respect) brotherhood.
Go back to school and educated yourself before you release another article claiming you know what you’re talking about.
“, we do not have the right to cast judgment on other groups of people or individuals who do not share our beliefs”
Dear Mr. Robertson,Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God’s Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.
a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians?
e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this?
g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?
i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God’s word is eternal and unchanging. Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.
– Billy P
CharlieChunkyDunkStone A gay man would lie in bed quite differently with another gay man, than he would a woman…just sayin’. Although, I get it. This argument is the only thing you have that is against gay love so it is tired and overused, but i understand that that is all you’ve got. All we have on our side is science, rationality and the many parts of the bible that include loving everyone. Also “Go back to school and EDUCATED yourself?” Really? If you fail that badly at the English language then your whole argument is invalid because there is a very strong possibility that you can’t even READ the bible.
Thanks for trying.
JohnnyFurlongSJActressSkydog So you’re now trying to argue that they shouldn’t be allowed to can an employee based NOT on his beliefs, but based on his expression of those beliefs? Where does that leave A&E’s freedoms? Your argument is making less and less sense as it’s broken down.
To address this contention: “A&E are not a moral based organisation which accepts people on the
basis of their faith and on the basis of the teachings of right and
wrong.”
The reason I had to choose a religious organization in my example is that there exists no other type of organization holding a view opposite from marriage equality. There just isn’t. I can’t think of one NON-“moral” (read: religious) based institution that holds his views. Would it have made you more comfortable if I’d have said Chik-Fil-A? If a regional manager of Chik-Fil-A started doing TV advertisements supporting gay marriage, I guarantee you that company would do the same thing as A&E, because it’s not the image they want to project.
This is not a free speech issue, period. He spoke freely. No one stopped him. He’s now paying the price for it. Unless a religious organization is involved, there are typically no repercussions for the opposite view, as you have pointed out. That’s because the opposite view doesn’t exclude anyone, not because freedom of speech, whether natural or constitutional, has been infringed upon.
Maybe people should realize that when they are offended by something it is their own personal problem not the problem of the person who committed the offence but of the person who is offended which means they are always playing the victim. And not only has a&e infringed upon Phil Robertson’s right to free speech they have also infringed upon his right to religious freedom. And enforced their ideals on everyone else. So why is it okay for A&E to push their ideals but not for Phil Robertson to stand up for his own? I believe you cannot cry about discrimination while you are discriminating.
This is exactly what I try to tell/show people. Thank you for saying it so eloquently.
shanpem3000 No one has prevented him from standing up for his own ideals. If anyone had, we never would have heard about what he said, because he wouldn’t have been able to say it. A&E is entitled to just as much freedom as he is. They have an image to uphold, and have every right to fire an employee for not projecting that image.
And for the sixty-kajillionth time, your “right to free speech” is protected from the GOVERNMENT ONLY, and nobody else. Go scream “Fire!” in a theater sometime, and see if they’ll allow you back in.
AngelaPayitforwardAyers – Actually, Angela, bible is a descriptive term. The version name is to be capitalized. That whole education thing really stumps liberals, doesn’t it?
bmwoodward12 Can you imagine if you worked the register at McDonald’s and you were allowed to recommend Burger King to all of the customers? No? Right. Everyone with a job has to uphold his employer’s image in order to keep his paycheck, plain and simple. This is not a new thing.
I urge you to go read the actual text of the First Amendment before you use it to argue a point again.
dougdelleh05First, this was caused by people doing business in the temple.. Let’s see how in-line we are with that today… Second, the bible doesn’t say He whipped them, it says He drove them out of the temple.
bmwoodward12 Your 12 is showing, Brittany.
JohnnyFurlongeh05″wow” – you seem a little defensive.. it’s unfortunate you missed the entire point of my post, and just read what you wanted to read.. ..it makes the rest of your comment completely irrelevant to me because we are not talking about the same thing. for example: “So, everything Paul wrote in Galatians would mean he is not a real
Christain, I guess we better cut out Jesus as being a real Christian
to, because he told people to “go and sin no more.”
you came up with that, and then followed it with a cheeky: “so glad you cleared that up”
i never said those things, and it would be great to have a rational, and calm discussion if you’re up for it- but that would require reading the post..
also, i never said “phil is a racist” – i said his comments were, and actually said one of the reasons this was so unfortunate was that this snapshot of a comment probably doesn’t reflect who he truly is.. so, basically – again, thanks for butchering what i said, and creating your own drama from it.
JohnnyShortcakeseh05 thanks for pointing this out.. i actually don’t snub my nose at this idea, and it doesn’t surprise me that it happens.
SteveDawson1 And what do you call it when quoting scripture causes offense? Tactless? I am concerned that your approach would empower the hyperoffended.
bmwoodward12SJActress I know how old you are. Congrats on your marriage to Jonathan.
My point is that you have exposed the fact that you have no real-world experience as of yet.
bmwoodward12 Nice try, soccergurl2011.
The world is coming to an end? I’ve heard “end of Christianity in America” “end of American morals” and other ridiculous rhetoric, but now it isn’t just America. The whole world. Because someone said something that harmed an affiliated company and then the company took action. I had no idea the world was so fragile! Also everything else that you said doesn’t make sense. They aren’t taking away his company or his family, they are suspending him. From their show. So the “duck dynasty” and A&E can continue to exist. Also we can express our views or not express our views, they are still our views. Expressed or not expressed.
SJ ACTRESS, you are playing chess while luv4church97 is playing candyland.
KentStraith SupportforPhil Your Constitutional point is important, Keith, but it turns out that there are also social consequences for bullying Phil out of his job for what he said, which, despite yours and others distortions, is not interpreted as vile or hateful by the vast majority of Americans.
The hyperoffended have usurped far too much power in the US and it is about time they are taken down a peg or ten.
Love this!
Dude. Have you ever had a job? In that job, did you have to go through training with HR? If my boss tells me he hired me because I have a cute butt and he wants to watch me shake it down the hall everyday, I would be offended and I’d hope he’d get in trouble. Even if it’s true and even if he meant it as a loving compliment for my gorgeous behind. He can say he was just joking and that it is my own personal problem. He can say its his right as a heterosexual man to call it like he sees it! But it would be disrespectful and it would be sexual harassment. Actually, even if I wasn’t offended (I would absolutely be offended) he would still be responsible for his sexist comments. So companies with HR training clarify that actually, even if you didn’t really mean to offend anyone, you are still responsible for your words. Here’s another way to put it: if you are driving and minding your own business and hit someone, you are still responsible for your actions. Here’s another way to put it: the road to hell is paved with good intentions. You don’t have to censor yourself, but you still have responsibility for what you say.
So, just be nice everybody. Don’t say anything that might make someone feel bad. Come now. People’s feelings are so tender!
We’re not to judge people, you say. It’s true we ought not be judgmental, meaning we shouldn’t act like we’re sitting on the bench at court, doling out condemnation.. But we certainly *ought* to make judgments about sinful behavior, and we have the right to state our opinions about such things. And people need to be grown up enough to deal with other people’s convictions they don’t like.
One other note: This isn’t simply about Christians’ “beloved” being persecuted. It’s yet another illustration of how people who don’t toe the line drawn by secular liberals can be shut up, of how freedom of speech is now reserved for only some of us. You should be as worried about this as Robertsons’ fans are.
Sweetheart. I know. The company is still their company. The family is still his family. They merely suspended a public figure. I understand the distinction. That’s actually what my point was. And sweetie, no one said he can’t say it, they said they don’t like what he said. Do you understand the difference?
P.S. For what it’s worth, I’m not a Phil Robertson fan. I’m not *not* a fan either. I saw their show for the first time a few weeks ago. I’ve seen maybe 1 1/2 shows. I’ve seen his family’s faces more than enough in stores around town (even in Christian book stores). This is a freedom of speech issue, and it’s yet another illustration of Christians being pressured to accept things their convictions won’t permit.
rwade12Didn’t get it did ya.
Phil is a bigot. Here’s what he said before a Bible convention in 2010. http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/tv-movies/duck-dynasty-star-verbally-attacks-gay-people-newly-emerged-video-article-1.1553737
“You put in your article that the Robertson family really believes strongly that if the human race loved each other and they loved God, we would just be better off. We ought to just be repentant, turn to God, and let’s get on with it, and everything will turn around.”
Or, let’s make judgments all the time.
rwade12 secular liberals? This isn’t a political issue. This is a “own your actions” issue. Get over it.
KylePierceSupportforPhilAnd you are doing what to Phil Robertson? Or even people like me who consider the Bible the word of God and homosexuality a sin? I have been a member of several different denominations, and none of them insult or oppress anyone for their sexual orientation unless you consider refusing to allow a person practicing open sin to represent or work in the church. Some churches are stricter than others BTW. That restriction would also include a heterosexual couple living together!
If a church is not a follower of what the Bible teaches I’m not sure I consider them a part of the true church. Who decides which sin to accept?? YOU???
I guess she got offended.
JoeNCAJaneScrogginsMaybe there are more “admonitions” because there are more people practicing straight sex??? Besides sin is sin, are you going to try to keep count of how many times who does what?? And if a person is living in sin it is loving to encourage them to continue to do so? Will you explain to God why you didn’t try to offer them Biblical counsel or do you even believe in divine judgement?
So deal with A&Es actions that you didn’t like. So deal with this blog post that you didn’t like. Grow up. Phil doesn’t need your outrage, and neither do you. Anger is bad for the heart. Take Phil’s advice and let it go.
Boozleford Perhaps so. People sure clam up when they realize they aren’t speaking with anonymity. Yet somehow I was the one accused of being “fake.”
I think she realized she was outgunned, mentally.
This is exactly the kind of article that burns me up!! Poorly written is an under statement!!! Mr. Matthew Paul Turner I recommend you take a few pointers from this guy!
http://themattwalshblog.com/2013/12/19/dear-ae-congratulations-you-just-committed-suicide/
A doctor? Ya know, those people who often spend a decade or more in school?
What a moronic thing to ask.
shanpem3000This is getting really old, and it’s depressing that people don’t get it. Phil Robertson spoke out about his beliefs, and the Constitution protects his ability to do so. The very same part of the Constitution that protects his right to do that protect A&E in their decision if they decide to not pay him to be on TV anymore. He has no more “right” to be on TV than you or I do. In this entire story, not a single person or group has had their Constitutional rights infringed. Not Robertson. Not A&E. Not the protestors. Not the people endlessly talking about it.
I keep seeing comments with a theme of “us” Christians and “them,” the gays.
This is a common and often unintentional symptom of bigotry and unaware privilege. The perceived “Them” are dehumanized and made into a two dimensional character. We think of shocking footage of gay pride parades and remember AIDS coming out of nowhere through this group of “Others”
And then we imaging that these ungodly foes are constantly running around naked in the streets and fornicating everywhere, especially in front of children.
But where did these Others, these gay people come from and what are they really like? The start out as sweet little babies just like we all did. And in many cases they were raised in loving Christian homes. And shock of all shocks, many are still Christian now!
Many of the most brazen, most militant gays you see in the news are the one who have been most deeply hurt by those who should have been their greatest supporters. Their families and their churches. Yes, I said churches.
I know of many gay people who went to their church with the biggest struggle they had ever faced only to have been treated cruelly.
The gay people you are so worried about, the “Them” they are our children, our siblings, our aunts and uncles. They are us. They would hate us a lot less if we didn’t treat them hatefully first.
People don’t want to be told they hate, but instead of that I say we act hatefully.
It’s so popular to say Hate the Sin and Love the Sinner. But Jesus love the sinner and hate your own sin. I have never heard anyone use that phrase in regards to any other sin.
I know people who cheat on their taxes every year. Other Christians who know it and say nothing. In some cases they even envy that these people know how to do it. Do we feel a need to tell them they are going to hell? do we say they can’t be deacons, sing in our choirs, teach Sunday school? Most times no. I think we are just so glad they aren’t gay.
Let’s see if we can’t love each other better.
John 13:34-35 “Let me give you a new command: Love one another. In the same way I loved you, you love one another. This is how everyone will recognize that you are my disciples—when they see the love you have for each other.”
Peace
MPT
You call yourself a Christian and think that it’s fine to insinuate a similar sounding word to duck to be used as a pun. You are saying not to judge but you yourself are doing it in this article to those that support Phil. Even if it wasn’t a violation of the Freedom of Speech & Religion (which it is), it’s a violation of the EOE Act. If you were a real true Christian with Christ in your heart, if you felt God’s calling to write a similar article, it certainly would not have been littered with judgments and condescensions. Christians are called to evangelize God’s truth, His word, the Bible. We shouldn’t fear judgement or opposing views for doing such, as we are doing what God commands…or have you forgotten that? If you were truly a Christian, you would be sick and tired of the rights of Christians…which are the same as any human in this country…being trampled on and called intolerent just for believing His word as truth. Shame on you MPT. Such a disappointment.
AlexPaigethe blog you reference has a completely different take on the whole situations. are you saying that because this blog doesn’t hold the same view as you it’s poorly written?
KentStraith RobDrury KristenAdams Three things, Kent:
1. The corporate link between GQ and A&E was something that I read online. I cannot confirm the report’s accuracy. But then, what difference does it make?
2. Not a bit surprised. In fact, I’ve most certainly come to expect it. That may be why I’m loaded for bear when I see it.
3. Blah, blah, blah. It was unfair and despicable treatment. It may pale in comparison to what we see in the rest of the world, but rest assured, our day is coming.
bornagain SFB2009 RobDrury You’re absolutely correct, but I’ve not sure to which post you were responding. You apparently misinterpreted something.
EricBoersma RobDrury Johann Popper Ding, ding! What does he win, Johnny?
RobDruryKentStraithKristenAdams 1. It makes no difference, but I didn’t bring it up, and it was wrong.
2. I know for sure that Jesus said that it was a Christian’s responsibility to carry their cross. I know sure that Jesus said persecution would come. I am less sure (not at all) that we’re instructed to be “loaded for bear when we see it.” I’m not sure how being loaded for bear jives with the admonition to walk the second mile when ordered to walk the first, and to turn the other cheek.
3. The record reflects that international persecution of the Church has been dismissed as “blah blah blah.”
Nope. Nope. You don’t decide who and who isn’t truly Christian. You don’t decide who we can agree with and who we don’t. You don’t decide what is and isn’t offensive and what is and isn’t a judgment.
I completely ducking agree. Well said!!!
Beautiful. Well done.
just because some people find Phil’s comments to be inappropriate, and crass – doesn’t mean i am denying truth, and the bible..His word choice on those topics is something I don’t agree with, and something that doesn’t accurately represent what I know to be true about Christianity..That being said, I don’t think his poor choice of words represents him well either, and after reading the recant of what he said prior, I see that he didn’t represent the tone of his views and where he’s coming from. that’s what happens to all of us when we run our mouths, and what’s unfortunate is how many self-professing Christians stand behind the way something is worded…so many verses talk about the power behind our words & speech.. i believe he could have made the same point in a very different way, and it wouldn’t have caused the same issues for him – would some have objected? of course, but i doubt to the extent we’ve seen here.. i guess my point is this: what would happen if the Christian’s that are totally losing their minds over this took some time to calm down, and actually prayed about their thoughts and feelings? How would that change your reaction? I am seriously asking this to those of you who are highly emotional about this.. I am not trying to debate, or even disagree- just asking what would happen if you took a step back before commenting.
JoshsGemini Josh, I sense you’re passionate about this, but wrong in a couple of ways.
1. There’s no such thing as “Freedom Of Speech & Religion”. The way you capitalize it makes it sound like a college class. What’s in play here is the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America. The amendment guarantees that the **government**will not sanction, fine, censure, or imprison you for your expressions unless your expression creates a clear and present danger to the public. The First Amendment does not address the employer/employee relationship. There is absolutely nothing that’s happened here that is addressed by the First Amendment. Phil Robertson was not constrained from speaking and the government will not be punishing him for it. Whatever happens between Phil and his employer is between them, and has nothing to do with the First Amendment.
2. When you say “The EOE Act”, I feel you’re probably referring to Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. This does not apply to contract law. I, as an employer, am allowed to fire an employee for being black. Or being gay. Or being a woman. Or because I don’t like your face. If I do that, however, I have to pay off the remainder of the contract. Phil Robertson and his family are under contract with A&E Networks, and I don’t know what the terms of that contract are, but they’ll be negotiated and fulfilled in some manner that brings this to an end.
It’s entirely possible you disagree with something I just said, and that’s YOUR right. But if you do, you’re wrong. I know what I’m talking about in the matter of Constitutional and Contract Law.
Wow! All I can say is WOW! I support Phil. He would be welcomed in my church ANYDAY! Its funny and SO VERY TRUE… Louisiana’s Governer Bobby Jindal said it best “The Left is tolerant of every view point except those that disagree with them!”
And theres an “upfront ad buys” on A&E for t.v stations or commercials to say what they want… BUT they have proven time and time again that if they dont like it or agree with you-YOUR OUT! Its not about t.v ratings anymore with A&E, its about what they want or what THEY believe in! Its only freedom of speech if “they” want it to be! Its becoming more and more one sided and leaning towards the LEFT anymore. We, the other side, dont bitch or complain when ya’ll run gay t.v shows-Modern Family or Queer Eye for the Straight guy!! I didnt see an outrage coming from our side??? If I dont like it or agree with it- I DONT WATCH THE SHOW(S) & OR READ THE ARTICLES!! Period, THEE END!!!
JoshsGemini
Kudos MPT
Are you people deliberately stupid? or Just @?JhshsGemini? Phil Robertson has the right to express his views. That’s protected by the First Amendment. In fact, he did, publicly, express his views, was allowed to do so without interference. However, A&E is a business. I thought you supported a business’ right to hire, fire and apply commercial strategies as it sees fit.
Just so we’re all singing from the same hymn sheet, here’s the 1st in full.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
Now, even I know his 1st Amendment rights have not been restricted in this case. It’s a business issue, not a Constitutional one. If you want to turn it into such, you might want to consider this; the same 1st Amendment also protects the rights of everyone to have their rights impinged on by the religious views of others. You can argue about religion all you want, the Constitution says you can’t use your views to reduce some else’s rights. Tough titty if you started on about the Constitution and found it disagreed with you.
What don’t you people understand about these rights you claim to value and act like your versed in. He has absolute freedom of speech. The Bill of Rights protects you from the government, not A&E. Just as he is free to speak as he see’s fit. They are free to terminate or suspend him as they see fit.
Comparing black people to white trash is just BAD TASTE, but suggesting that black people were happier during segregation? That because Phil never heard a black person publicly complain BACK IN THE ERA OF LYNCHING means that they must have been satisfied with the state of things? This is so racially tone-deaf that it reminds me of the time Paula Deen romanticized the slaves as being “like family”. Not to mention, the subtext of his remarks is that black people nowadays are entitled, ungodly, discontented welfare recipients. So when I see people as “standing with Phil” based on their Christian values, I really have to ask . . . how does an apologist for our country’s ugly Jim Crow legacy represent Christian values? As a Christian, Phil’s views on gay people and on black people do not represent me, and I’m embarrassed by those who are holding him up as a martyr or an example. I get that Phil is dear to many . . . he’s a likable guy and a very public Christian. But that doesn’t excuse his ignorant remarks, nor does it mean that he gets a pass from accountability. Regardless of where we fall in the “is homosexuality a sin” debate, as Christians, our greatest charge is to LOVE. I don’t feel that Phil’s remarks were loving to gay people or to black people. And I don’t believe the blind support he is getting from Christians is very loving, either.
I will say this one more time-where were all these people “witnessing” there beliefs on FB before A reality TV show was interfered with?
If anyone would like to use the story if the woman that was going to be stoned for adultery and the men were asked, those without sin shall cast the first stone, yet all stones were dropped
Shame On You JoshsGemini…!!!
KristaZachary Could you settle a bet for us over here? Are you ESL, or have you just been drinking?
The reason “the left,” as you prefer to call them (although I think that’s sorely under-inclusive) is intolerant of “your” view point is because “your” view point in application actually affects people personally and tremendously. Conversely, the reason “you” don’t “bitch or complain” when “the left” runs gay TV shows is that there’s nothing logical or rational about which to complain. You can easily avoid the values with which you disagree, because those values don’t deny you anything at all; you can exist and practice all of your rights entirely separate from them.
The converse–gays being allowed to practice their values and what SHOULD BE their RIGHTS under the application and enforcement of “your” view point–is impossible.
AlexPaige
LoL and copying someone else words (plagiarism) from a creditable newspaper as your article did!
AlexPaige i recommend a better education for yourself.
the references are totally different but spin the situation the way you choose AlexPaige like everyone else.
KristaZachary
oh my>> KristaZachary
Did you smoke a Glade Plug-In before you wrote that…
SJActress KristaZachary
Very Well Put
Hmm I see my comment has struck nerve with you. lets make this clear. He was quoting the bible, which he believes to true. The only wrong that seems to be here is that he even opened his mouth. Is that what you’re getting at?
I don’t believe that is the issue here. The issue here, to me, is that no one could just look at what he said and go “okay, you believe what you want, I’m going to continue to do what I want to do as a gay person.” But instead everyone was up in arms because a Christian man put forth his christian views in an interview.
Now I, being a devote catholic, understand that his words may have hit a raw nerve for a lot of people, including you. So, do me a favor and NEVER move down south. Cause a lot of people see homosexuals just like he does.
He never directly meant any sort of disrespect I’m sure. And i do see where you are coming from. I dont even completely understand where you pulled this comment from. I simply believed that the comment he made was of real importance. The fact that he says basically that he believes in what bible teaches, he would never hate someone because of their orientation. Its not the fact that he said this that should matter its the fact that presented with the opportunity he would treat any openly gay man or lesbian woman with t
*the same respect as someone who wasnt gay.
He didnt say that anyone would rot in hell for anything. If he truly believed in and knew the bible he would be aware that only one person in the bible went to hell. One. No one is stopping you; if your boss is a butt, you can tell anyone you want. I dont see what any of your comment has to do with anything.
KristaZachary “We, the other side, dont bitch or complain when ya’ll run gay t.v shows-Modern Family or Queer Eye for the Straight guy!! I didnt see an outrage coming from our side???”
Then you’re not looking very hard. There was plenty of right wing outrage over Queer Eye and Modern Family, plenty of right wing outrage for Queer As Folk. There is plenty of right wing outrage over the LOGO cable network.
You’re just not looking hard enough. Period.
He wasn’t even BORN ‘pre-entitlement, pre-welfare.” The New Deal was enacted in 1933. He doesn’t look like he could have been born before 1948 at the earliest, so I really doubt he was hoeing the fields with black people in 1932. When btw we had segregation.
I sense an axe to grind. You keep calling him a “rich hunter”. Seems like your degrading. Also this matter is important one. You act as this is no big deal, which is your right. You reference the tragedy in Syria. It is more important than this. However would like to point out though when we take our freedoms for granted they then will be taken. We will then be the ones massacred. Pray for our family overseas.
I never read about him saying anyone was going to hell. As far as the christian community knows only one biblical character was sent to hell. As far you or anyone else knows Hitler could be in heaven kicking it with jesus. (Luke 16:19-31 in case you were curious). Now, your slander will get you no where. Please do respond when you dont feel the need to usehateful words to get your point across.
Mind you, I’m 18 and able to speak with less hate than you.
MichelleMauler It depends what part of the country you lived in. Many areas still involved people of both races working amongst each other in fields when Phil was young, especially in southern and rural areas.
Soooo are you guys the type of people who goes home in a bad mood and cries just because someone said they thought you were ugly or fat? Because it affected you in such a way where you couldnt pull your big girl/boy panties up and move on? You cry in self pitty? They dont like me… or who i am… or how i live? Cuz thats what it sounds like. Our beliefs have been the only one that affect people personally & tremendously? Seriously?! Yes, because you are the only HUMANS on Earth!
LOOK, I nor has PHIL physically STOPPED anyone from being gay! He stated that he doesn’t BELIEVE in it and nor do I! You may believe in it-GREAT! Im not calling anyone out over it or crying because they dont like my life-style?!? If I was gay and someone said I dont believe in what you do or the way you live your life, your going y o hell or whatever else you want to throw in there that Phil said in order to make your point…. I’d say… well, im sorry you feel that way. We’ll just have to AGREE to DISAGREE! And I’d MOOOVVEE OONN!
I’m also wondering if A&E KNEW they were a CHRISTIAN Family BEFORE they signed them up? About Christian believes and that they pray…?
HUUUMMMMMM?
Anyhow, Im done. I wont be going rounds with yall, like a lot of you have been sitting on here for hours doing. I do have a life that I live & a family which I have to take care of, and i will do so regardless if anyone likes how I do it or if they AGREE with it at all.
We can agree to disagree.
And for the record, I dont agree with being gay but that doesnt mean I dont still love them for who they are. Ive actually had really close friends who were gay. And we were all mature enough to “agree to disagree” 😉
Good nite yall. And Merry Christmas! 😉
Maybe so. Maybe your right. There could hv been an outrage from my side, no ones perfect. But I dont think it was or has EVER been such a big deal as when the Left side doesnt like something. Nothing is big on t.v unless the Left Wing Liberals dont like it or agree to it. Its all censored anymore.
Period.
I get your point, Matthew Paul Turner, that we need to keep this in perspective. However, you are equating taking offense to this as being foolish or hypocritical, and that just isn’t the case. Who put the idea in your head that as Christians, we aren’t supposed to speak out when we see others persecuted for proclaiming their faith? That is exactly what we should do. If we don’t, no one will.
While I certainly wish that others weren’t losing their lives over bombs and wars, it would also be unwise to ignore the battle on the Christian frontlines in America–the one that involves us losing our freedom of speech. And contrary to your perception of it, yes, this is, in fact, a case of one’s freedom of speech being dismissed. It doesn’t matter that he didn’t use the best words (not all people speak smoothly)–Phil still had the right to voice his opinions and should not have received backlash for it from A&E. Some others have mentioned that Christians were upset over programs or channels such as LOGO–I don’t doubt that for a second. But the difference is, those programs and channels didn’t get put on hiatus like Phil.
But the thing is, I can agree with you on one thing: we shouldn’t be anymore upset about this than Phil is. And I don’t think he’s upset about this relationship with A&E potentially ending for good over this. His values are more important to him than the tv show, which is why he is so popular. When everyone else was creating an uproar, he was in church. And despite your opinion that no one would want him to preach in their church, the fact is he IS a preacher and preaches all the time. Do your homework and report information responsibly.
Was it not Jesus of Nazareth who was hung on a cross because the people disliked what he had to say? This is no new concept. Comment all you want, but like Phil, the Lord will judge you based on your decisions and actions in your life. Are you going to be able to look Christ in the eye and know you did well standing for the truth we are called to represent? I pray that be the case. A man is known by his actions. However, in matters of Gods Law such as this, men are not held to judgement by man, but by the Lord. This time is a reminder to us all that we must be conscious of how we live our life and realize that to be Christ Like, is to sometimes suffer, like Christ, like MLK, like Paul, like Mandela, like Phil. Sometimes it means you have to represent the very same truth that killed our Savior on the cross. For those who do not prescribe to follow Christ, there is nothing but love from me. Because it was in love that Jesus died for you too. Blessings on you.
What do you mean you won’t be “going rounds with y’all”? I just read half a dozen long-winded replies you wrote to several people commenting on this article…..
Please don’t ever compare Phil to martyrs like Paul and Jesus Christ. Ever.
As Christians our job after we have repented and accepted Christ is to start having a relationship with Him… Be Baptized and filled with the Holy Spirit.. as we grow in our relationship we are to spread the Gospel to the lost to all corners of the earth.
Now, Jesus said that He didn’t come to change the law but to fulfill it.. He also stood by the commandments God gave to Moses and to the standards and morals that were given to us in the old testament and in the book of Leviticus. we are to love our neighbor and our enemies.. we pray for those lost. Phil answered a question regarding sins and gave several topics of sin beside homosexuality. So now the word homosexuality was used oh my… but as Christians we are to bow down and remove a nativity scene or not pray in school , but they can teach evolution. our government can spend our tax money to fund islam over seas and here but cant bring up being a Christian. Courts actually waste time and resources to hear cases because someone gets offended with God in pledge of allegiance.. (don’t want to say God don’t. then) but non-believers sure try to force their issues on everyone else and nothing is said.. as a minister I may be told by the government to marry people that go against our beliefs.. that is wrong. to go after a bakery who refused to serve a customer is wrong.. last I knew a business had the right to refuse service to a person. We have a so called president who stands by as radical muslims attack Christians and tells the Christians not to do anything. Or not being able to say Merry Christmas to people or face the possibilities of losing ones job.
we are in the last days., and the church better find the backbone to stand up for Gods word and not hide… For I am not ashamed of the Gospel and will continue to preach the standards, morals and love that it shows us.. And to remind people that it is only through Jesus Christ that we have salvation. we are not to preach a watered down version of Gods word so not to offend people but we are to preach the standards that are expected of us as believers… Again we are to pray for others who are lost, pray for healings, pray for miracles and love all people.. but we are to hate the sin… not the person… we are to help and pray for them.
There was only one perfect person that walked this earth and that was Jesus and He will be coming back soon… everyone will have to face Jesus and I for one don’t was to hear Him say ” I never knew you.” we are to strive to live and become Christ-Like… I pray for all to be blessed
“Socialist mainstream media”?
No. His employer. What he said did not line up with everything A&E, as a corporate company, stands for.
How many times do we have to go over this? It’s incredible the number of people who just don’t seem to understand what this article is really saying.
And the part about not capitalizing the word “Muslim”? That’s a whole different fish to fry.
First of all, what are you even taking about? How does any of that relate to what was in the article?
And capitalizing the first letter of a word does not mean you do or do not respect a certain person/religion/business/etc. It means it’s a proper noun. That’s all it means.
Secondly, all Muslims are not “murderers and terrorists.”
Source: I have peaceful Muslim friends.
That last sentence. I advise you to reread it and realize how ignorant you made yourself sound while trying to bash someone’s intelligence level.
And what a rude response.
Excellent piece. Thank you for challenging the church to walk in grace not judgement. Preach it.
SharonJenningsBowler Yes! I don’t agree with Phil’s crude and crass language. Yes! I do agree there are consequences for what we say and do, the Bible tells us that we must face the consequences. That doesn’t just apply for our sins, but it also applies to our faith. Many die for our faith worldwide on a daily basis and they have an eternal reward for the strength of their faith. You are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!!! We are to love one another. We are to hate sin and love the sinner. It does upset me when I hear others saying who we should not allow within the walls of our churches. My Bible teaches me that we are “ALL” sinners and all need to come to Christ and all need to be loved.
Yours was the most thoughtful and profound reply. Thank You for you thoughtfulness.
Jesus hurt a lot of peoples feelings that needed their feelings hurt. He also offended a lot of people that needed to be offended.
I watched homosexual groups protest the Catholic church on Easter Sunday back in the early 90s. Relying on their freedom to use offensives speech to make their points is how they have gotten as far as they have. To now demand sanctions on someone else’s speech now that they are in the more normative position is wrong.
So Matthew is saying we should be cowards and keep our opinions to ourselves because “The people signing the paycheck are afraid to share or admit they share the same opinion as Phil” You sir are a coward – freedom of speech!
ShawnLefluerobviously they don’t agree with what phil said, or they would not have fired him.. have you not been listening?
Df9392 note…you just “equated” paul and Jesus 😉
SharonJenningsBowlerBrilliant. A voice of reason among the crap.
rwade12No. No one is “pressuring” Christians to accept things that they “can’t” or don’t want to. He had every right to say what he did, could he have done it with a little more class? Sure. But, when we speak, even amongst close friends and family, we are responsible for how our words affect those around us. Unfortunately for phil, his words were against what is employer believed in so he must suffer the consequences… he utilized his right to speak, but freedom of speech does not include freedom of consequences.
JimMahaffey frybaby12 Radio stations pulled them from rotation. Based on the argument here, isn’t that suppressing their right to free speech? Almost a direct parellel to the Duck Dynasty situation.
psniderRight. but He did it with love and humility…and he also took those that you claim “needed to be offended” into his arms, washed their feet, and blessed them. don’t compare phil to Jesus.. just don’t.
“And lastly, remember that it is we who, every single Sunday, proclaim the values of kindness, love, humility, hope, grace, and mercy.”
I am sorry, I practice these values EVERYDAY, not just on Sunday!!!!! I do not agree with your rant concerning this situation. I feel that we as Christians have a responsibility to take a stand when one of our own is being punished. Believe me, I am sure this has been a long time coming. They wanted this man to stop praying to God at the end of each show. Rumor had it, this was HIS last season. My point, God has been striped from so many things and when a good family tries to put in back and share Him with others on the media, this happens. So what, a FEW people’s feelings were hurt. As you said, maybe they should get the “duck” over it! If it hurt feelings, maybe it was for a reason. Maybe it is their sin that is truly at the heart of the matter. Yes, Christ died for our sins but that gives NONE of us the right to continue to WALLOW day after day after day in it, does it? IMO A&E has no shows worth watching that promote good, Christian values and I pray DD removes itself from such a place as A&E! Can not wait to see people’s hateful responses to my comment. Prayers for our nation!
Bro, you’re speaking my language here! We ought to be angry about human trafficking, real persecution, and the reduction of salt in fast food fries. Not sure that the indefinite suspension of a multi-millionaire reality TV star warrants the wrath of God’s people.
Not a bad train of thought. I don’t understand why you felt it necessary to write, “let’s not stoop to Sara Palin’s level”. What was that about? I also take issue with implying that a Christian should never say anything that may offend anyone. The Gospel is an offense to the world. quoting scripture and calling sin sin is exactly what Christ did and what we need to be doing more of. I make no equation of Phil to Jesus. I simply believe that Christians need to speak out loud and clear against sin. If that offends a person or an entire group of people then it is not the fault of the speaker but of the offended. This whole love, peace, tolerance, and passive picture of what a Christian ought to be, is why our world is in such chaos. out will grow worse but never should we be silent and fail to speak out against sin.
Typical libtard apologist jabberwocky. When you get fired for something you write, Matthew Paul Turner, tell me then it’s not a free speech issue.
AlexChristine1 psnider Calm down and quit being so defensive, no body is comparing Phil to Jesus. Making a point about the Christian attitude that Jesus wants us to have. We are to be like Jesus and if that means offending people to share the truth then so be it.
You know, those who are claiming this is not a free speech issue may have a point. All you have to do to understand the REAL issue here is reverse the roles and ask yourself what the supporters of homosexuality would be screaming. So, if someone spoke out in favor, e.g., of gay marriage, and the reprisal they faced as a result was loss of job (or “suspension” as in this case), what would they immediately begin screaming? DISCRIMINATION! And in this case, the discrimination involved the expression of one’s religious beliefs. So everyone crying out against a violation of free speech, let’s get on board with what REALLY happened here, and center this protest against this discrimination against one’s religious beliefs, and take a stand for religious freedom of expression.
JustAnotherThought rwade12 Your assessment assumes Robertson was wrong. That is the issue under debate. It is indeed a political issue. Certain groups have a privileged position. They can say what they want about people who differ with them, but those who differ aren’t accorded the same freedom. (And please drop the “get over it” condescension. Your opinion isn’t so self-evidently correct as to justify snide dismissal.)
GoadGreef rwade12 I got it. Did you?
Boozleford I thought maybe this was a response to me, but I don’t see a clear connection.
As Christians we are supposed to be the ones to show compassion, love, grace and every attribute that Christ showed…thus the definition of being a Christian is to be “Christ-like”… So tell me why we should be the ones to back down in situations like this then? These are first world problems I will admit. Most people wouldn’t know that 500 people died in Sudan yesterday, thousands die everyday. There are terrible things that happen EVERYDAY that we don’t shed a tear about… If we did, we would be more miserable than society thinks we already are. God is the one that leads people into different lines of ministry to be mindful and to help those areas that the masses don’t know about or pay attention to all day every day. But those missionaries has hundreds of people praying for them as well.
I agree in some context what Mr. Turner is saying here but then again that isn’t necessarily a Christian problem more than it is a societal problem that effects Christians alike. Christ didn’t just roll over when there were things that he didn’t agree with. He tossed tables when he was infuriated about the temple being used improperly. Not just that, he let people know when they were in the wrong and didn’t sugar coat things. Society has gotten so politically correct that it has also spilled into Christians and their beliefs. When are people offended most? When they know they are in the wrong or guilty of something they shouldn’t have done and they have been called out on it. That’s what the definition of offended has turned into. Tell me this, if Jesus were alive and ministering in current society, would He be afraid to “offend” someone and tell them His truth? I’m sure that He would word things better than most, but I’m sure media would either come out and “crucify” Him for what he said IF they would even give Him the coverage.
Nothing Phil Roberston said was offensive or demeaning… they were simply HIS PERSONAL beliefs and anecdotes that were asked of him that he shared. If others are offended, they don’t have to watch the show, read the article, or have anything to do with the family. Just as Phil Roberston has the right to express stuff about his beliefs and life, they have the right to ignore and not follow it.
Phil was not representing A&E when he did this interview. A magazine was interviewing him, about his personal, real life, right? So why the huge outrage about his comments off the show? He didn’t comment on A&E’s practices of programming, did he? It sounds like he answered questions he was asked by GQ honestly and without judging a specific person. It sounds like he judged the sin, not the person or group of people. He didn’t say Ellen was a horrible person because she is gay. He said homosexuality is a sin. That’s a fact. You are right, Matthew Paul Turner, when you say people are making this a bigger deal than it should be. But I think you have the people who should calm down backwards. The people who should calm down are the ones who got so offended when they heard what Phil said. People get defensive when they are doing something wrong and it has been pointed out.
On a side note. It seems to me that you are trying to get as many reads as you can with your title, Calm the Duck Down. Seriously? You have to allude to a curse word? It looks like you are using anti-Christian tactics.
Df9392 Jesus was not a martyr. All those that have died because of their belief in Him are martyrs.
And whose to say that we are not concerned about other things that are going on in the world. Truth is society sheds a bigger spot light on stories like this vs. stories like, as you put it people dieing in society. There is such a double standard in this. We shouldn’t be bullied every time we speak on our beliefs. This isn’t about being upset because he was suspended, but the reason behind why he was suspended. Speaking our truth should not end in punishment. I’m so over this “Their judging me attitude.” That some people in the gay society carry. My bible tells me that it is in sin, and that is my truth, no judgment passed at all, that’s the Lord’s job.
Perfect words, Matthew. Just perfect!
ae is just a bunch of gays and lesbians if you think because it says in the bible that man shall not sleep with man and woman shall not sleep with woman or somethiung like that and he just said his opinion so there was no need to get peed off for thst. i rest my case
Phil is an honest man, who was asked a question, and answered it. I agree with everything he said. Hey church, look this up in the Bible, men should not have sex with men and women should not have sex with women. God gave us a choice and it is up to us to choose right. We should not judge others for their choices, but how can you have compassion for people who go against what God says. All we have to be concerned with is what goes on in our own back yard. My church does not close their doors to anyone, but when you are joining the church you can’t go under the water to be washed of your sins if you don’t try your best not to sin. God does not want us to lie, so do not ask a question if you don’t want the truth. What was done to Phil was a bad decision. Shame on you A&E.
olundy I agree 100%. Thanks.
Well Mr Turner you have missed the whole point. CHRISTIANS are so angry because Phil quoted the Bible and people like you are calling it hate speech. So in essence you are calling SÇRIPTURE into question. You are saying that the most important writing in the history of the world is in error. This by the way says the God of Christianity is not smart enough to make sure we are reading HIS inspired word. Bottom line; you and the vocal atheist minority are disrespecting the creator of the world.
2 Tim 3:16-17 says ALL scripture is God breathed. Now 2000 years later, after a generation that has thrown the Bible out of school, this generations minority is now trying to throw the Bible out of public discussion.
The real question is; Is God who he says he is, or are we going to let man define who they want him to be?
“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.” I Corinthians 6:9-11
Hey Matt, how are those for ‘hurtful words’?
I can’t wait to read your condescending future blog concerning the insensitive and narrow-minded manner in which Jesus conducted Himself on Judgement Day.
This is not about Phil. It’s certainly not about keeping him on A&E, and I have seen very few “angry” posts from Christians – mostly just people affirming his right to speak his mind. It IS about freedom of speech because if a christian boss fired an employee for saying he supported homosexuality, the ACLU would have them in court the next day. The DD gang are not pastors, they do not represent a church, but they do represent a large majority of conservative Christians that are tired of being intimidated and silenced every time they speak the truth about sin and its consequences. I could really care less if Phil gets back on the show – in some ways I really hope the rest of the clan decides to ditch A&E, whether that means they end up on another network or not.
BamaBubba JoshsGemini
thank you for that one……..
Funny that the church is (rightly) upset about the A&E thing and you’re upset about the church. You’re a whole step lower than the church in your priorities because at least they’re upset about something real. You’re upset about them being upset. And I always love the argument that you’re not concerned about starving people etc if you get involved in an issue. By that logic you’re not concerned with the poor because you wrote this article. Hypocrite much? I’m pretty sure a 20 second tweet or Facebook update doesn’t mean people aren’t concerned with the other important things happening in the world.
P.S. You should think about not taking the Lord’s name in vein at the end of your next article.
RandyWindborne Due respect, Randy, but if you think this is a “free speech” issue, you simply do not understand the concept of freedom of speech in America. The government guarantees us the right to not be prosecuted or fined for our self expression. We are not guaranteed the right to speak without any consequences. If expressing yourself however you please to whomever you please with no social or financial ramifications of any kind is how you define freedom of speech, I suggest you begin your search for a country that allows that. It will be a long hunt.
LibrarianTonnaHe WAS a representation of A&E despite the fact that he was having a personal interview. Do you not have a job? Do you think you can go out after work in your employer apparel or to a work function and speak in a crass and judgmental way about delicate matters without the consequences? No. When you are in the public eye, you are a representation of who you work for. regardless.
Alluding to a curse word is ANTI-CHRISTIAN???? OMG!!!!! WHO are you people?!?!?!?!
SkydogIt sucks both ways. We are all hypocrites when it comes to defending things we believe it. it is not a matter of free speech, he said what he said and faced the consequences for it. Just like if someone came out in favor of gay marriage and worked at chick-fil-A they would most likely be fired too.
UGH.. no one is trying to take away your religious freedom of expression. stop crying. Christians have more freedom and power in this world then anyone.. when was the last time you were fired just because you were christian.. oh wait- you weren’t, but GAYS are fired everyday because they are GAY.
AlexChristine1 rwade12 When people cannot speak against something, when airing an opinion against something so significant brings vilification and worse, yes, you are being pressured to accept it. Isn’t it in Canada that to speak against homosexuality (in whatever manner) is considered hate speech? People who rent out rooms in their homes in the U.S. have to board gays even if they have moral objections to their sexual activities. Photographers have to shoot same-sex weddings even if they find such things grossly immoral. Recently, someone who owns a bakery was told he had to make a cake for a same-sex wedding. Not being pressured?
Were the Robertsons warned that their opinions on such things as homosexuality were not to be aired publicly, even in venues other than “Duck Dynasty”? Or was this more a matter of A&E caving in to the voices raised in protest? Surely they already knew Phil Robertson’s beliefs, and they knew about (and profited by) his abrupt outspokenness.
Regarding your last phrase, I know the difference between speech and its consequences. This debate is over the appropriateness of the consequences.
This whole matter needs to be seen in a broader context. It isn’t just an isolated incident with no significant context. Regardless of one’s opinion about homosexuality, the fact is that Western civilization has been against it for a very, very long time. In the span of about forty years–little more than a blink in time in history–homosexuality has moved from being something not discussed in polite society and subject to legal and social punishment to being a matter open to public debate, to being depicted favorably on TV, to becoming legal, and to finding increasing public approval. Things have now gone so far that it is now a punishable offense–socially, and in some cases legally–to publicly speak against it.
That is *major* change, and in a very short span of time. And how has this come about? Because it obviously ought to be accepted? To whom is it obvious? Has it come about by reasoned discourse? It has come about by the kind of thing we’re seeing here now. Mostly it has been name-calling (silly words like “homophobic”), put-downs, and shouting down those who oppose change. And, of course, there’s the declaration that it is a “right”. What kind of right? A legal one? It once wasn’t but people wanted to change that, so it couldn’t have been a legal right. A natural right? I’d love to hear a defense of that!
Jobs are now on the line of people who oppose it and say so. We see now what the consequences are in the world of the media. To give an example in another arena, what are the possibilities for tenure for a professor in a public university who speaks against it? The point is that there has been a huge moral shift in a very short span of time that has been accomplished largely by exercises of power. That should give everyone pause no matter which side of this debate they are on. The Phil Robertson situation is an illustration of this change.
It’s also an illustration of the astonishing turn-about in the fortunes of free speech. Think about the years when social change was beginning in this and other areas. Those of a social liberal bent were silenced for a time, but the free speech movement arose and their voices started to be heard. Do you remember those days? If so, you’ll remember that proponents weren’t always polite. But they insisted on the right to speak freely! Now, those very people, the ones who espoused those “progressive” opinions in the ’60s and ’70s, have made a sharp turn-around. To them, free speech is no longer for dissenting opinions, as they demanded back then. Now it’s only for those who agree with them.
Somebody in this thread asked me, “you don’t get it, do you”? I think people who agree with this shutting down of free speech and with the significance of this event in the bigger picture of social change don’t get it. It’s another domino falling. Tell me something. What will happen if the tide turns again in the traditional/conservative direction and those on the gay rights side are the ones who are (once again) being silenced? Will they keep silent?
(Obviously, my comments here moved way beyond the points made by AlexChristine1. It just seemed as good as any place in this thread to make them.)
KathyThompsonEllisDf9392has phil died?
I understand that, since FedGov regulates virtually every aspect of our lives, that distinction no longer exists, Kent. Imagine FedGov response if Disney were to suspend one of their young actors for pro-gay public statements.
Phil_bentz are you SERIOUS!? He’s mad because christians are more worried about a rich millionaire who is judging people, than the real issues that christians are supposed to be worried about, such as starving and homeless children, homeless and starving dogs/cats, people in other countries who can’t even get clean drinking water. Instead of rushing out buying this guy’s merchandise to make him richer, why don’t you all be more CHRIST-like (as in christianity….get it?) and donate money to people and charities that deserve it! This is why christianity is declining and why people think you all are crazy, because you CONSTANTLY forget what the religion is about. Jesus would be appalled right now! Disney owns part of A&E and I guarantee phil knew that, and knew he was working for someone that supported gay rights.So he put the nail in his own coffin. And regardless of what you all want to quote, I GUARANTEE Jesus would not attempt to save a homosexual by going up to him and saying “Ya know, you’re going to hell for being gay.” You all need to get a grip on reality and understand what your religion is ACTUALLY about, love, tolerance, acceptance, and helping others. There are 10 times more verses on not judging than homosexuality, read the book!
Matthew,
If you are going to take out the trash on the failures of Christianity lets start with the “first most important one” that causes all this “dissemination” so that we have a goal in clearing all our failures.
What you should of started with is “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength.” In doing so we would come the the conclusion that in order to follow up on the second greatest commandment, “love thy neighbor as thyself” (having to do with world atrocities), we would have to “walk as Jesus walked “doing the things He did and greater things.” Which openly “manifests” Gods love, power, and presence, to everyone, both poor, sick, and even (in cases) the deceased. Our failure lies in lacked passion to “work the works of God, knowing His will and doing it” as Jesus did. ALL of it! “he said “If you love Me obey My commands, and My commands are not grievous.” Healing the sick, raising the dead, multiplying the loaves, preaching the gospel with signs and wonders following would be the only start that will make a difference. But of course many churches don’t believe nor preach these “commands” , and many Christians wouldn’t believe either because of lack of witness so here we are. You pointing out Christian shortcomings and the whole of humanity hearing the gospel; but not the Gospel of Power. Paul said “when I come I would see the power not just listen to your words.” The carnal illnesses of this world would be quickly put to rest if we “walked as Jesus walked” with power instead of theology, and faith instead of carnal knowledge.
Therein is the failure that causes all other failures in this FAITH: the lack of faith and obedience!
So there in a nutshell is why we (or some of us) are without “influence” in this land that we sojourn in.
A house divided will fall. So it is and will continue until the Lord returns. “We have all strayed and went our own way.”
I think we need “real meat” teachings coming out of the Bible study’s and more “closet time with the Holy Spirit” so our hearts can be cleansed and our “sonship” restored, God being once again glorified.
In Christ
Jerrold Cavasin
RandyWindborneThis is not a case of the government over-regulating, Randy. This is a case of Conservative, free market, exchange of ideas. If Disney suspended one of their actors for pro-gay statements, that would be a private company exercising their freedom of speech in response to someone’s else exercising THEIR freedom of speech. Neither party would be prosecuted or fined. There would be social and economic consequences for both parties, for positive or negative. The federal government’s response to this would be nothing. Disney’s tax status wouldn’t change, and they wouldn’t be sued. There is this feeling that because a private entity is bigger than you, they can take away your First Amendment rights. They cannot. They can use their economic power to encourage you in one way or another, but that’s their right. Nobody has the right to freedom of speech without consequences and this is due to a LACK of government power. I know it’s become a knee jerk response to blame the federal government in some quarters, but none of this has anything to do with them.
You (the writer) are being very presumptuous about all the people that have gotten up in arms. You speak as if this were the only thing motivating people to action. Of course there are bigger injustices in the world! Most people know the difference between this incident and the plight of the poor and destitute. I agree that speaking with intelligence and not emotions is important, and that there are people that have reacted poorly. Let’s not throw out the intelligent dialogue about the double standard that exists on the topic of free speech between Christians and a culture that radically seeks to remove Christianity, while our president will apologize for a video that might possibly offend Muslims. GLAAD shouldn’t have supreme power to have Christians silenced for quoting the Bible which opposes their views, for the same reason that Christians don’t have the right to silence them for speaking out against Christianity. Thanks for writing this.
BrianThompson2 The part about the ACLU is simply not true, Brian. There are generally two kinds of employees. At Will, and Contract. At Will employees can be fired for any reason or no reason. If someone made pro-gay comments in the workplace and was fired, I suppose they could sue, but they’d lose. If the employee was an at-will employee, an employer would never, ever state that this is the reason they fired them. They could legally say “Brian was fired because I don’t like his shoes”, and that would be the end of it.
MrZ So you think Jesus would react the way many christians are acting? I’ll answer that….NO. That’s a very simple way to test whether you are abiding by christian principles.
Ridiculous article laced with sarcasm and “straw man” arguments against Christianity and that liberal snobbery and hollywood/east coast elitism we are all sick to death of. A good helping of disdain for southerners added into the mix “y’all”. Your pompous condescending attitude is very telling and made it very difficult to read this diatribe. A person can be concerned about the homeless and also upset that a person who doesn’t toe the PC line faces the wrath of the eternally “offended” among us. I’ve been offended but I guess I don’t have the power of the Gay and Lesbian groups to get people fired or ostracized over their offensive words and actions. So you know what I do? I turn the channel. Why do some classes get to be offended and others do not? Miss America did not state her disagreement of Gay marriage so coursely as Phi but she was attacked nevertheless for stating religious objections to Gay marriage . And when is it “hateful” to disagree with someones choices anyway? And who decides just who and what gets to be offensive today? My own opinion on Gay marriage is this. The state shouldn’t be involved anyway. If you can find a church to marry you—fine with me– but don’t try to make MY church do it…of course you can’t do that. If my Church won’t agree to marry you then we will have to be called “haters” and lose our tax exempt status, etc. l. You are not happy with diversity of opinions, you want YOUR opinion to be enforced.
A&E can do what they want. If they want to cancel the show that’s their business. We also have the right to disassociate ourselves from A&E.
JimmyMcMullen A&E is also partly owned by Disney, who obviously is very pro-gay. The point is, he very likely knew the company he was working for supported gay rights, so if he disagreed, he should have quietly quit and gone to another network. And if you’re genuinely wanting to help a gay person, you don’t go up to them and tell them they are like animals and are going to hell. That’s not how Jesus handled the prostitute either!
MrZ, I seriously doubt you have a clue as to how Messiah is reacting. Not “would react” – that’s how I know you don’t.
RandyWindborne Ok so tell me again how he handled the crowd and the prostitute?
That’s a lovely theory, Kent, but we both know it does not reflect reality.
blueaccord19 JimmyMcMullen Maybe you should read more of the bible than the parts about the prostitutes and you’d get somewhere. It’s also in the bible to tell others about Christ and how to get to heaven so you’re contradicting yourself.
RandyWindborne Well let me tell you, he didn’t walk up to the prostitute and tell her she was going to hell. He condemned all the others around her for condemning her.
blueaccord19 JimmyMcMullen And no telling them that they’re animals is wrong but saying “this is wrong and I want you to come to heaven with me” is biblical and in Christian’s eyes right
Staceylane blueaccord19 JimmyMcMullen I know WAAAAY more about the bible than you, actually. So I should ignore Jesus teachings? Which is the basis of the whole religion CHRISTianity? No I think you should read more of your own word which you hang on every word.
blueaccord19 Staceylane JimmyMcMullen Then please tell me, did Jesus tell the prostitute she could continue in her ways? No. She sinned as every human being does and he helped her change her ways. You should follow that teaching which you claim to know so well, show your brothers love by allowing them a chance to get into heaven.
Again a bogus comparison. Messiah handles (note the verb tense) each situation his own way. If you must speculate on what he would do, based on scripture accounts, rather than knowing what he is in fact doing, then you’re just another religious fraud gathering stones to throw. An uncomfortable reality, I know.
Staceylane JimmyMcMullen Maybe I should cite Gen. 6:6 when he regretted creating humans, or Isaiah 14:21 which says to slaughter the kids of sinners?, or maybe you mean Ezekiel 9:5-7 where god commands a group of people to go through a village and kill everyone and steal their stuff? Yeh ok…
He also did not tell the woman she hasn’t done anything wrong. He acknowledged that she wasn’t sinless and told her to go and sin no more. That part often gets left out of the story.
Staceylane blueaccord19 JimmyMcMullen He was also supposedly the son of god! You are not.
cinco Supporting a bigot is never a good idea, but please continue doing it… it’s the, um, christian thing to do…
Staceylane blueaccord19 JimmyMcMullen And there is probably a reason that there are 10 times more verses about judging people than homosexuality.
jm1180 Ok well next time your kids disobey you, make sure you stone them to death. That’s what the bible says….
blueaccord19 Staceylane JimmyMcMullen I would read your bible if you’re going to say someone is not a child of God. Also all your verses are out of context, I know exactly what they say and what the cross references and rest of the chapter mold them into. Instead of using the Bible to sling hatred at people maybe you should read it in context and you would understand what you’re saying. I could explain every one of those verses right now and explain why what you’re saying is out of context but something tells me you’re too close minded to want to know. you’d rather hate a group of people.
blueaccord19 Staceylane JimmyMcMullen Because all people sin, homosexuality is also a sin commited by PEOPLE. it’s not that hard to put together
Staceylane blueaccord19 JimmyMcMullen No actually the verse on god telling people to go into a village and kill everyone, including the livestock, and take the virgins for themselves was done out of vegeance for what another person did that angered god. It is not out of context at all. I don’t hate anyone, actually. Never said that. It just sickens me how christians refuse to uphold the teachings of the very person the religion came from, and THEN are too prideful to admit when they’re wrong.
blueaccord19 Staceylane JimmyMcMullen Maybe if you read more than individual verses and read the Bible in context you would understand it. One line means nothing, I could take one line out of any speech, book, movie, and twist it as you do.
Gen 6:6 in context with the rest of the chapter and cross references means God was sorry he had placed man on an earth where sin was possible, that he should’ve kept them from it.
Isaiah 14:21, if you would read the rest of the chapter you would see that the city was destined for destruction on it’s own, it was filled with murderers, rapists, child molesters and despicable people. We deem it ok to get rid of them today but not in biblical times?
Ezekiel 9:5-7 Is the same situation as above but instead in the temple. No church would allow prostitution and the events occurring in that temple to happen, killing people as punishment was common in biblical times, not just by Christians, it was simply how things were done
blueaccord19 Staceylane JimmyMcMullen It sickens me how people who don’t know anything about a religion try twist it and discriminate against us. You don’t know what Christianity is it seems like since you only know three bible verses and only parts that are to slander us. I would say we’re being a little less prideful and hateful.
hey christians, your religion isn’t the only one. you will be outed like you were in the past, but in this day and age, you can’t go on your crusades murdering those who don’t believe the same as you.
Staceylane blueaccord19 JimmyMcMullen How do you know homosexuality is not something people are born with? There is no proof that it is solely a choice. I have a friend who is gay and her dad is a preacher. You really think she wanted to disappoint her dad? She says it is not a choice, it is who she is and unless you’re a scientist with proof, you haven’t been in their shoes, nor can you say a person is going to hell for something they were born with.
Staceylane blueaccord19 JimmyMcMullen but thats not how he said it, not once in that comment did he say he loved homosexuals and wanted them to go to heaven. He just said they weren’t. And the bible also says to be careful with your tongue, because it is a reflection of the heart.
blueaccord19 Staceylane JimmyMcMullen There are scientific studies… they don’t get broadcasted though because the media only wants you to believe what they want you to believe. I know many people who are now straight and Christian who have written online blogs, books and spoken at events that though they were gay and then realized that they really weren’t because they had chosen to do that. Yes many people wonder about it, even Christians but it’s been biologically proven more than once that it’s not something you’re born with. Look up the studies.
blueaccord19 Staceylane JimmyMcMullen Actually he ended it with “i won’t stop respecting people just because they’re not like me” he was saying they weren’t going to heaven because when he started the show he said he wanted to use it as a platform to broadcast the word, he felt it was his duty to let them know that if they wanted to go to heaven they needed to change their ways
strik9 That’s the thing, they don’t study the religion and its origins. They just go to church and learn the same stories over and over and skip the parts that are morally wrong and don’t make sense. I grew up my whole life for 23 years in christianity and so I know how it goes, and looking back, I understand why christians are ignorant, but with all the information available today, there is no excuse for ignorance anymore.
cooolthings cinco How is he a bigot? Not agreeing with gay marriage is being a bigot? That’s the problem. You don’t know what being a bigot means. He is not trying to stop you from doing anything. He believes the gay lifestyle is a sin. So what? He is not doing anything TO you, AGAINST you, or STOPPING you from doing whatever you want. He’s not denying you rights, goods or services. His opinion effects you and yours not one wit. He did not state he hated gays, but instead said he loved them and was indeed commanded to do so by his religion. Evidently he is the victim of bigotry as he is the one who has been affected, displaced by his opinion. He was ASKED for it. In my opinion he was “baited” but that’s beside the point.
blueaccord19 Staceylane JimmyMcMullen I would rather tell a gay friend that I want them in heaven with me and they’re not on that track than sentence them to hell by not opening my mouth because I’m too afraid they’ll be offended. I’ve done so before and they’ve all been understanding. That is a reflection of the heart that I think is ok to have.
cinco cooolthings christians try to stop gay marriage ALL THE TIME, with bills and such. Oh but when you think your “freedom of speech” is at risk, you are all up in arms.
blueaccord19 I never understood it. It is known that the tyrant kings (those who the bible tells you to stand up against) destroyed all prior copies of the bibles to release their own versions. there was a time where a pope had a lifespan of a couple days because they were getting assassinated so that someone else could control the people.
BrianThompson2 It’s actually not, if you read the constitution. Nowhere does it say you can’t be fired for saying something your boss doesn’t like but it says you can’t be told not to say something and you can’t be detained for it. I don’t like the situation either but it’s not a violation of first amendment rights
blueaccord19 cinco cooolthings I stated my view. Can you read and understand what you read? Are you 12? I don’t believe the state belongs in marriage PERIOD. The government should have nothing to do with marriage. Find a church to marry you. I don’t care. Don’t try to force my church to marry you. You can’t do that can you? Who is intolerant????
BrianThompson2 I have seen MANY angry christians on my facebook, including relatives. And many of them ran out to make ol’ rich phil even richer to “Support him”. Try supporting the homeless and starving instead.
blueaccord19 RandyWindborne You conveniently forget the part where he told her to go AND SIN NO MORE!
Let me just remind all of you that as its okay to have different opinions (I get it) arguing over who is right and wrong in the end gets us no where. Yes we disagree, but should it be on a level of condsecension and hate. I think if Im not mistaken that this is exactly what the devil wants, if for us to disagree to the point of hate. And if you look at some of these comments thats exactly what it points to whether you mean it to or not.
cinco blueaccord19 RandyWindborne is this really your only arguement? you know one bible story and you’re using it to fight with everyone. It’s not even relevant to the topic and you’re still leaving out parts of the story. Maybe learn to love and respect people instead of spreading hate.
rhall3 That’s the problem with this article. It was VERY condescending in nature.
cinco I didnt think it was at all.
cinco blueaccord19 cooolthings Well you have to go through the state to get a marriage license correct? Are you not aware of that? How you believe marriage SHOULD be handled and how it actually is, is two different things. A person can’t get health insurance through their partner without being legally married. I know a gay couple, of which one of them has cancer and is unable to work, but can’t get health insurance through her partner, because I live in the ignorant south. You can’t tell someone their wrong, going to hell, or deny them certain human rights, because of your religion. There are a dozen religions that came before christianity, so why not make laws based on them too? Actually i had been a christian from birth until age 23 and realized what it’s about. I’m 28 now and have learned more about the Bible in the last 5 years than any christian will probably ever know. So I beleiev it is YOU who does not understand.
cinco blueaccord19 cooolthings Not to mention many gays will tell you they were born that way, so how is it a christian or anyone else’s place to tell them they are wrong and going to hell for being who they are and what makes them happy? The church though science was evil back then too, they didn’t have a good understanding of many things. There is much more knowledge and information these days, and I bet you’re thankful that the church didn’t continue to hinder science or we’d all still be dying of many curable diseases.
I find it hypocritical that the church considers homosexuality a sin, but yet when a priest molests and sodomizes little boys/girls, they immediately step in and prevent that priest from facing charges and going to jail? And you can always google search how many priests go to jail over molesting and sodomizing little boys/girls.
cinco cooolthings Also I know of a gay couple that was not allowed to adopt because of their gay relationship, which I guarantee came from some Bible thumpers. People are constantly having there rights taken because of religious beliefs. Freedom of religion is also freedom FROM religion.
sznottka Religion is one big hypocrisy, I just wonder If I’ll be censored for stating these truths.
blueaccord19 sznottka Honestly, I believe religion is just a form of control over another human being, that’s why I believe in God, not religion.
BamaBubba JoshsGemini And A&E has a right to fire him. So yeah, the freedom works.
sznottka blueaccord19 I believe in science unless a credible “Holy book” comes along. I have read so much stuff in the Bible that I never knew existed since I left christianity. It’s just the bible has been rewritten so many times since the first copy (since there were no printing presses back then), and if you ever played the telephone game (where you whisper a phrase into someone’s ear and see if it stays the same on the last person) you know that within 30 seconds that phrase almost always changed by the last person. Now imagine rewriting a massive book over thousands of years, where language and handwriting was constantly changing, and having multiple authors. There’s no way we have “the original” Bible and, in fact, it’s been proven we don’t. I just believe in being a good person and treating others like i want to be treated.
sznottka blueaccord19 It’s also a way to make millions of dollars.
strik9 blueaccord19 Yeh because people believe blindly what they were taught as kids, like i did myself. No one actually studies the history of the Bible and where it actually originated and came from. Nor do they acknowledge all the mistakes made in it.
blueaccord19 if you want to read more about what George Carlin says about religion, google it. He probably has the best view on religion ever, and the sad thing is that he is 100% right.
blueaccord19 First, that’s not what Torah says. Second, Torah commandments & judgments are not applicable to gentiles grafted into Messiah. Third, when you understand why Torah commandments were given in the first place, you’re on the road to knowing God’s heart. And no I won’t tell you.
cinco You must not have seen or read what that duck guy said… his words are most definitely bigoted. And all I said was supporting a bigot is a bad idea . I could care less about him but I do like watching bigots get what they deserve.
sznottka blueaccord19 oh yeh i just watched some george carlin the other day. He is hilarious, but also a smart guy. Yeh I love when talks about “the guy in the sky”. lol
Well said!!!
RandyWindborne blueaccord19 Well I know plenty about the bible, but I can only debate with ignorant people for so long, just wears me out. I really have no hate in my heart, just discussing. I do know ancient egyptian mythology came waaaaaay before christianity or any other religion, yet it has similar stories as the Bible. Virgin birth is a common story in a lot of religions. What a coincidence!
1. Horus born of a virgin. Jesus born of a virgin.
2. The foster father of Horus was Seb or Seph. Jesus was fostered by Joseph.
3. Horus was of royal descent. Jesus was of royal descent.
4. Horus birth accompanied by three solar deities [star gazers] who followed by the morning star of Sirius bearing gifts. Jesus birth accompanied by three wise men [Zoroastrian star gazers] who followed by a star “in the east” bearing gifts.
5. The birth of Horus announced by angels. The birth of Jesus announced by angels.
6. Herut tried to murder the infant Horus. Herod slaughtered every first born in an attempt to kill Jesus the forthcoming messiah.
7. Horus is baptized at age 30 by Anup the Baptiser at a river. Jesus is baptized at age 30 by John the Baptist at a river.
8. Horus resists temptation by the evil Sut [Sut was to be the precursor for the Hebrew Satan] on a high mountain. Jesus resists temptation by Satan on a high mountain
9. Horus had 12 followers. Jesus had 12 disciples.
10. Horus performed miracles like healing the sick and walking on water. Jesus performed miracles like healing the sick and walking on water.
11. Horus raised someone from the grave [his father Osiris] Jesus raised Lazarus [notice the name similarity] from the grave. Lazarus is short for Elasarus – the “us” on the end is romanized. Elasarus was derived from “El-Asar” which was the name given to Osiris.
12. Horus was buried and resurrected in the city of Anu. The place Bethany mentioned in John was a derivative of the words “Bet” and “Anu” which translates “the house of Anu”. The ‘y’ on the end of bethany is interchangeable with the letter ‘u’.
13. Horus was killed by crucifixtion. Jesus was crucified.
14. Horus was accompanied by two thieves at the crucifixtion. Jesus was crucified with two thieves.
15. Horus was buried in a tomb at Anu. Jesus was buried in a tomb located in Bethany [Bet-Anu].
16. Horus was resurrected after 3 days. Jesus was “said” to resurrected after over a period of three days.
17. The resurrection of Horus was announced by three women. The resurrection of Jesus was announced by three women.
18. Horus was given the titel KRST which means “anointed one” Jesus was given the title Christ [Christos] meaning “anointed one”
You’re a perfect example of IGNORANCE in your thought process! And stupid for posting something so stupid!
A. Catholics are not Christians. Per definition! A Christian believes Jesus is the Messiah! And ask him for forgiveness and acceptance.
B. A priest is catholic-not same belief system as a christian.
That’s not to imply Catholics don’t believe is Jesus their beliefs just vary greatly from “Christian”
I absolutely agree with most of this article. Didn’t personally care much for the ridiculous comparisons. Its not JUST about Phil’s suspension. He is probably secretly happy happy happy. The anger comes from frustration. That a decision based off people’s reaction to the media spin. Every post/ article had at least 5 inaccuracies!!!
Bottom line…I fed up with catering to people who are to ignorant to form an opinion…a reasonable one. There was nothing offensive about his racial comments! He said at the beginning of that, from what he saw!!!! This guy asked her button questions that are controversial with most. The comment about gays tho true was brutal! However, with a ounce of sense you can tell by his comments..come on dudes….girls just have more…he was softing the blow. He quoted the Bible, but because he is a christian and his desire is to Love and share. He choose to add a Phil humor, none the less what was brutal were biblical. So lets keep facts straight!! I’d your to ignorant to come an objective opinion you shouldn’t get catered to. Oh we punished the big bad bullet that hurt your feelings. That is enabling stupidity and blind conformity!
Staceylane blueaccord19 JimmyMcMullen Christianity is psychotic, nothing promotes hate, racism, tribalism, homophobia, misogyny, slavery, blood sacrifice, incest, etc like Christianity, while at the same time having the most jealous god who commands you to love AND fear him which is sadomasochism. The whole religion is a joke, and when people believe they derive good things out of it, it’s because of their innate ability to be good, and has NOTHING to do with the religion. Plus, nobody can prove Jesus’ existence anyway, or what he said was divine, or even if what he said was morally sound, last I checked he supposedly said something along the lines of having “no thought for the morrow” telling you to leave your family and friends and follow him because death is around the corner, and he can’t wait for it to happen. The good in the bible is very easily over-shadowed by the bad. Or how the story went; Jesus did not come to wage peace, but he came bearing a sword. Being homosexual is NOT a choice, and even if it was, what does it matter? You can’t have a quote from the bible that’s “in context” because it’s all up to interpretation, and everyone interprets it differently. Which is another reason to not believe a word of it.
drclevins Staceylane blueaccord19 JimmyMcMullen I believe since Christianity started, they have started the most religious wars in the history of the planet.
GayleShidiskis “Catholicism is a denomination, hence a subset, of Christianity. All Catholics are Christians, but not all Christians are Catholics. A Christian refers to a follower ofhttp://www.diffen.com/difference/Buddha_vs_Christ who may be a http://www.diffen.com/difference/Catholic_vs_Protestant, Gnostic, http://www.diffen.com/difference/Evangelicalism_vs_Mormonism, Anglican or http://www.diffen.com/difference/Special:Information/Orthodox_Christianity, or follower of another branch of the religion.
A Catholic refers to a Christian who follows the Catholic religion as transmitted through the succession of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope of Rome and the Vatican Empire across history.http://www.diffen.com/difference/Catholicism_vs_Christianity#The_Pope_View is the leader of the Catholic church. The Catholic Church is the largest of the Christian Churches – about 60% of http://www.diffen.com/difference/Christianity_vs_Judaism are Catholic.”
I disagree, people are angry that he is preaching the truth of the bible, if that offends them, that is there problem not ours, you failed to mention also that he said he would never treat anyone differently or love anyone less because they are different then him. Also you fail to recognize the importance of this television show, it is the only pop-culture christianity is in, culture molds EVERYTHING in society, if christians are shaping culture then the culture will end up in a horrible place (as it is today) I disagree with your assumption that this is “no big deal” and I also think its foolish for you to think that anger at Sudans being killed and anger at this have to be mutually exclusive. This has more publicity thus it gets more attention. All in all I think you have some pretty big loopholes in your argument.
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John 8. He defended the adulteress…Not the adultery itself, but the woman caught in it. He also said, He did not condemn her.
Also in Luke in the story of Zacchaeus, when the crowd began muttering about Him being the guest of a sinner. “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.” This has always reminded me that regardless of the specific sin, we are in the same boat.
Tim Romero Couldn’t agree more, the section where this author talks about how we should not offend people blew me away…. Jesus offended all the religious leaders of His time. Of course or job is not to go out and try to offend people, but if they are offended by the teachings of the Bible, it is their problem, we should not stop preaching parts of the Bible because it offends some people (1.4% of the population to be exact)
JohnnyFurlong I read the entire article. Jesus turned the tables once with righteous anger…towards those that KNEW better. There was a difference between the leaders of the church and those not of the church. I am happy for Phil and his suspension. Not in that I think he should be punished for his beliefs but that he was steadfast in them enough to BE “punished.” From this one point, he managed to complete Luke 6:23 in full! We should all be rejoicing with him! Luke
6:23… “Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall
separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out
your name as evil, for the Son of man’s sake. Rejoice ye in that day,
and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven.
RyanCooper123Tim Romero Thanks Ryan. This may sound weird but if I am living a life that is surrendered to God I will continually offend this culture, that is my goal. I agree, when will we realize that we are the majority and God is on our side. (I’m sure that last comment will draw some offense. 🙂
blueaccord19 strik9 no,of course not.are no historical scholars of the bible.and everything you have said is based in solid historical fact.give me a break, there is plenty of hisorical evidence. I am very sorry that your church left you in the dark, which I will gladly admit many churches do. But not all Christians are simply ignorant. These duck dynasty fools apparently are, but they do not represent all of Christianity, and it is just as much ignorance on your parto make the claim that they are.
Tnutzz GayleShidiskis oh snap!
I’m sorry, I’m not religious, but i saw this article and wanted to read about the situation. And before you judge me for not believing in your god or anyone else’s, iwant you to know that i will not judge you for your beliefs. I don’t believe (but for all i know i may be wrong here) that the bible says that a vagina is better than a man’s anus. Now if that is quoting scripture then excuse my ignorance please, but i don’t believe it is and that is enough to offend me, a heterosexual man. Because who are you to judge another person’s preferences. Strictly my opinion and i mean no offense to any fellow humans, regardless of your religion or belief system.
blueaccord19 RandyWindborne Oh, Poor Wikipedia historian, he doesn’t know most of his amazing details were added into the story of Horus after Coptic Christianity began to spread through Africa and the local religious leaders were threatened by its rapid growth. Prior to 300 BCE the only similarity between Horus and Christ were that they were both supposedly born of Gods (although Horus was not of virgin, Much like these Percy Jackson books, the Gods actually mated with the women) and Died and came back to life, (although Horus was after one day). If your going to sit on here, and man do you ever sit on this page, and spew supposed facts, then at least, please, please, please, get a real history book and do some research. Otherwise you will just sit here and embarrass yourself, and no one really wants to see that.
blueaccord19 I take it your source for the Horus information is the internet. The only source I have is Messiah himself. Either Messiah is alive and intimate and speaking, or he’s nothing.
RyanCooper123 If our culture is in such a terrible place, and you are saying it is the fault of Christians, why don’t Christians try doing something DIFFERENT that impacts our society and culture for the better? I am a Christian and most of what I see from Christians is them alienating and condemning people. No, it’s not the Word doing the dividing; It’s the people using it.
GayleShidiskis What’s with the name-calling? Anyway, I’m going to assume you don’t know many Catholics, though with your mindset, I’m not sure how a friendship with a Catholic would even be possible. Hmm. That’s sad.
Tim Romeroagain, not sure why you don’t understand this, but your religion isn’t the only one. imagine how up in arms the church would be if a famous muslim said that christians are no different from rapists or drug addicts and they will experience eternal suffering for it. christians have filled the streets with blood over such words.
JoshRomeroHi Josh, I was speaking to the scripture reference in 1 Corinthians 6 that Phil Robertson referenced. Check it out. I will stand up for the truth of the Bible, you are free to believe anything you want to. We do have common ground my friend you see I am not religious either, but I do have a relationship with the God that created me, big difference. If the Bible offends you, you are not alone. Judge you? I don’t even know you, but if want to know more about what I believe, I’ll be glad to help you.
RandyWindborne TIL Jesus is alive and spends his time watching the show Duck Dynasty and has a unique interpretation of the Constitution.
Great example of fallacy and non sequiturs. For example, Sudan is a foreign sovereign nation and people dying there is a tragedy but the case for outrage at their deaths is a completely different issue than what is as work here with DD. Secondly, the author clearly doesn’t understand the problem of homelessness and there are NO children dying of malnutrition here, that is simply not true. So, using untruths and completely nonrelated outrageous events to support his position is just as bad or worse than the behavior or “the church” he is railing against. I find it interesting that the author says nothing about the million or so babies that are murdered in the womb every year, his lack of outrage to that is truly telling. The truth is in nearly every church in America there are women who choose to abort their unborn children, that is a real outrage. You horribly missed the mark Matt.
strik9Tim RomeroWell I respectfully disagree. You see Jesus said ” I am the Way, the Truth and the Life and no one comes to the Father except through me.” He said it I did not, I just believe it. The problem with me is that I have seen it from your point of view and I realized I was wrong. I don’t practice a religion and whatever you think has been done in the name of Christianity has nothing to do with my need for a Savior. You are free to believe anything you like and by the way, more vile things are said about Christians and Christianity than any other belief system.
I’ll tell you something. If we don’t stand for God whenever and wherever He won’t stand for us. We had better quit sticking our heads in the sand every time God and His word gets attacked. While it is true He can take care of things without me, I believe He wants to see what I’m going to do.
JessN JohnnyFurlong nauqcaj Jess stop trolling and go jump off a bridge. I’m pretty sure we are all the masters of our opinion so STFU!
Tim RomeroRyanCooper123 People like you are the reason that I and many others like myself have walked away from the church and organized religion. I could no longer take the hypocrisy that people like yourselves continue to spew from your bungholes. I turned to Buddhism because I have yet to find a loud mouth Buddhist that runs around trying to offend people.. You both are incorrect, Christians are not the majority, in fact the numbers are dropping by the day. People are sick and tired of hearing the garbage that you and your Duck Dynasty buddy like to dump on them. People are tired of hearing about preachers running around molesting young boys and girls, they are tired of hearing about the scandals and they are just plain sick of organized religious nut jobs like the Westboro Baptist Church. For zealots like yourselves, you seem to think there is some kind of honor in the way you present your faith but there is nothing to be proud of and I am pretty dam sure that Jesus was here, he wouldn’t be happy about this crap either. People that hurt other people in the name of God are the worst kind of people, you are part of the problem and not the solution. I hope you two can one day pull your head out of Jesus’s but and see the light.
Tim Romero it doesn’t matter what jesus said, that’s the point i am trying to make. the word of jesus and god has nothing to do with those who don’t believe in them.
JosephTrokeyyou will burn in hell for you beliefs. the great Allah will force his wrath upon your misguided views.
BenHouchen blueaccord19 RandyWindborne Regardless, if your not familiar with egyptian mythology, the bible does have comparable events, or stories to that of the bible. And as I said above the bible has been rewritten so many times since the first copy (since there were no printing presses back then), and if you ever played the telephone game (where you whisper a phrase into someone’s ear and see if it stays the same on the last person) you know that within 30 seconds that phrase almost always changed by the last person. Now imagine rewriting a massive book over thousands of years, where language and handwriting was constantly changing, and having multiple authors. There’s no way we have “the original” Bible and, in fact, it’s been proven we don’t. Stories are in it now that aren’t in the earliest manuscripts. Any homophobe could have added what they wanted along the way. Therefore my point being, you can’t have religious nuts citing a fictional story when trying to influence laws or tell others how they should live and whats right or wrong, if they are not hurting anyone. And show me some scientific evidence that it’s a choice for people to be gay, otherwise your god is a screwed up guy, creating people with a genetic fault and then condemning them to burn forever for it. And yes I do get information off the internet and typically stick with websites associated to universities or historic organizations by scholars. So what other ignorance am I spewing? Please correct me. So you think all information on the internet is fake? Boy are you behind….And randy i was a christian for 23 years and never had any voices in my head. Might want to seek help?
strik9Tim RomeroYou have made your point. Thanks.
JessN JohnnyFurlong nauqcaj Hey troll, i.e., JessN, I’ll assume you’re an expert in English/Journalism 101. But maybe you don’t have the best analytical skills. The author said,
“Can we–members of the American Church–all just calm down for a moment and look at ourselves? Because we look ridiculous. We look foolish. And worst of all, some of us sound downright ignorant. Because how we respond to events like this matters—ducking matters!”
Then he made roughly four main points on why it doesn’t matter. So although he may not have explicitly stated it, and I am unsure if English/Journalism 101 teaches you to think, but I’m pretty sure what we said is implied.
So stop being a troll, unless you’re the English/Journalism 101 that likes to sound smart by chiming in on conversations with nothing useful to say. #Troll
scubadoTim RomeroRyanCooper123Thanks for your thoughts. You are assuming a lot about me and I am glad I gave you an opportunity to vent. I agree about hypocrisy, it certainly knows no bounds, as you have proven.
JosephTrokeyWell said Joseph!
scubado Tim Romero RyanCooper123 You ran because you didn’t like what you heard. And the word of God is not going to change. You can’t change religions every time you discover you don’t like what the bible
says.
BenHouchen blueaccord19 RandyWindborne And yeh ben I am sitting on this page today because I’m off for 2 weeks for CHRISTmas. I can do what I want right? Since we’re talking about all this freedom stuff. I like to speak on this subject. Assuming you are a christian, you should check out bible scholar “Bart Ehrman” on youtube. He has some great debates and makes some great points. He left christianity, but is a distinguished religion professor at a university in north carolina.
JoAnneScurtoBrook scubado Tim Romero RyanCooper123 Wow you all just can’t understand. Religion is like an opinion, it is not fact. So say you have a bunch of scientists who have an opinion on something, but none of them can prove they are right. Scientist 1 can’t go tell scientist 3 he’s wrong, that wouldn’t make any sense. And not one of the scientists are going to just walk up to a nonparticipant and tell them they are wrong for not believing THEM. So that’s basically how religion works.
What happened to loving one another?
If Messiah has watched any DD, he’s watched more episodes than me.
Messiah’s sheep hear his voice. You may have been Christian but clearly not his.
JESUS offended the self righteous, the religious leaders. The political leaders were less offended and only persecuted Christ to please the Jews. Maybe he offended the prostitutes, homosexuals and adulterers but the most common theme of offense in the New Testament seems to be that of the self righteous religious leaders. Just a thought.
Well said Matthew.
Can I just say something? Your opinion on whether or not homosexuality is a sin DOESN’T MATTER. What does matter is that people can’t seem to put down the books of their religion or stop preaching verses long enough to realize that your hatred is killing people. Let me repeat that; YOUR HATRED IS KILLING PEOPLE. Teenagers that are part of the LGBT community are three times more likely to commit suicide. Let’s think about that for a second. The fact that peoples’ hatred is killing other human beings changes this issue immensely. If you have a shred of humanity in you then you’ll realize that this is a terrible tragedy. You all feel the need to yell and scream about how everyone is going to hell is causing people actual pain. And it’s ridiculous. Why? Because every sin is the same. God views all sins to be on the same level. There isn’t some great sin you can commit that will keep you out of Heaven. No sin is more horrific than the other. If you lie it is a sin and in God’s eyes it is the same sin as someone acting on their homosexual feelings. So don’t pretend like homosexuality is a huge sin and that God will strike down every person who doesn’t conform to the beliefs written down in an ancient book. If you knew how much your words, your blind; narrow minded; ignorant words, hurt people and drove them to the point where they don’t want to live any more, wouldn’t you feel morally responsible? Wouldn’t that make you shut up and just remember that being a homosexual is just as big a sin as lying? Or Adultery? I don’t see you condemning people who have cheated on their spouse to a lifetime of purgatory. I really don’t understand why you feel the need to bring religion into this at all. It isn’t your place to judge or pretend like you know what God wants you to do. God created us the way he wanted us. If he didn’t believe that gay people should exist he wouldn’t have made them.
strik9JosephTrokey I feel sorry for you.
read the new testament Jesus also didn’t condone actions that were not condone in the old testament…
mygirlkacy01 Jesus also didn’t condone sin which he stated in new testament, read the new testament he preached the same standards that were preached in the old testament,,,,
JosephTrokeystrik9 why? you are the one that will spend eternity suffering for your belief in a false god with the other vile sinners. christianity is not right, and until you find Allah, you are no different than a rapist or murderer.
blueaccord19JoAnneScurtoBrookscubadoTim RomeroRyanCooper123 I live by Faith not a religion… I have seen God work, I have heard His voice.. and the Bible is His word … its the most scrutinized book there is and history and archeology does prove the bible is true.. also many non believers as believers in the days of Christ talked about the miracles He did. Jesus died for all of us and I pray you will see the truth ….
blueaccord19JoAnneScurtoBrookscubadoTim RomeroRyanCooper123Well what you need to realize is that God did not create religion, man did. Truth is not subjective, by definition there can only be one truth. So according to your example only 1 scientist is truly correct, the others are wrong.
PaulCochran blueaccord19 JoAnneScurtoBrook scubado Tim Romero RyanCooper123 Actually no, the science does not prove the Bible is true, neither does history. Actually science has proved the earth is at least 30,000+ years old. The Bible puts it way younger.
Tim Romero blueaccord19 JoAnneScurtoBrook scubado RyanCooper123 Yeh but you missed the part where I said none of them could prove they are right.
Your way off base, this has to do with Christians standing for our beliefs plain and simple.
Boozleford I do understand what it means it must be you that doesn t
Must be.
blueaccord19Tim RomeroJoAnneScurtoBrookscubadoRyanCooper123 Actually I did not miss it, it is irrelevant because someone has to be correct about the truth. That is where faith enters the picture. If you cannot see evidence of a Creator all around you, you are deceiving yourself, I know because I used to have to have proof of everything to believe in it. I agree that I cannot prove to you that God exists, not due to lack of evidence but rather your lack of faith.You cannot prove to me that He does not exist if you are honest with yourself.
Tim Romero blueaccord19 JoAnneScurtoBrook scubado RyanCooper123 No, all of them could be wrong actually, because there are more than 10 ways we could have gotten here.
It really doesn’t have anything to do with that. You’re promoting nothing but mean spirited ranting. I know you think it’s more than that. But it’s all just noise that has nothing to do with Jesus, God, or Christianity…
BenHouchen blueaccord19 strik9 Well then why is it atheists know more about the bible than most christians?
I think Phil realizes the power of media and how he can be a role model to other Christians. So why do you think people are pissed? because finally Christians have made a public footprint in entertainment tv (which many non believers watch) . He is trying to make a difference by being an example and sharing his beliefs and immediately he gets persecuted for it.
BendouglasWhen Phil was on Jimmy Kimmel Live, he gave out his home address on the air, so my faith in his being some kind of media-wise sage isn’t all that great.
blueaccord19 PaulCochran JoAnneScurtoBrook scubado Tim Romero RyanCooper123 so red sea scrolls? the ark they found? the left over remains from the plague in egypt? The hieroglypics depicting the story of Moses? the 5 scientists who became devout christians when they proved themselves wrong over the star of Bethlehem theory? I mean that last one speaks for itself, if there are atheists trying disprove God and they find so much evidence of his existence in science that they become Christian you’re choosing not to see or you’re not looking hard enough. Ignorance isn’t always bliss
strik9 Tim Romero muslims have already said that, this is also the fourth or fifth person you’ve tried to correct for saying christianity is the only religion when they really didn’t say it.
blueaccord19 sznottka mr “blueaccord’ I would like to know how you’re a good person and want to treat others the way you want to be treated based on you’re hate in all these comments. You’ve gone out of your way to try and hurt others. Is that what you want done unto you? Now you’re the hypocritical one.
nwaring Infoczar1 Don’t call me a FAD you homophobe.
such a terrible article. Exactly what “church” are you speaking on behalf of? America’s church? What the hell is that? Secondly, Phil was asked about his beliefs, and then shared them. Jesus and his followers do love everybody, but it doesn’t mean he condones their actions. And seriously, vagina and anus? It doesnt get more proper then those words….What would you rather him say? bum bum and pee pee? If you actually read what hes saying here, he said TO HIM, girls have more to offer. HOW IS THAT OFFENSIVE? Any Gay dude would probably say the opposite. and yet that wouldnt be offensive? People need to grow up and quit getting their feelings hurt so easily.
As for the rants, you are correct. This is not a matter of free speech, but it is a matter of ignorance by A&E. They made millions off of this family, knowing damn well of their christian values. In fact, That is one of the shows greatest selling points to the majority of viewers. Yet when the family actually acts on those values they get canned? give me a break. Dispite what your ignorant post suggests, he is not spreading hate. He even stated he loved all people equally. However, according to the bible, he is correct. So what is the problem here? are you going to start protesting every christian church you see now too? because they are also spreading the word of god.
cbk1 Did you read the post? GLAAD is an organization for the LGBT community. They don’t “care” about Sudan because that isn’t the purpose of their organization, and when someone says offensive things about the community they represent, then they usually comment. But Christianity *is* about helping the least of these, and about spreading peace and love. The second greatest commandment Jesus gave was to love your neighbor. And the first was to love God – not shove your beliefs about God down other people’s throats.
jmcpha1 cbk1 exactly, they dont care about peoples rights, only their rights. and you are obviously not christian because christianity is not about spreading peace and love. It is about Living for god. Christians do not live for everybody else, they live for god and spread his word.
kstack34 “They made millions off of this family, knowing damn well of their christian values.” I find this very strange that you would assume condemning the LGBT community to be a “Christian Value” when merely two or three sentences before this one, you openly scoffed at the author for condescending to speak for the entire “American” church. If Turner cannot speak for all Christians, then why do you get to?
It does not matter if Phil was spreading hate, spreading Christian values, spreading Jewish values, good values, or bad values. What he said violated the terms of his contract plain and simple. It is not a condemnation of Christians, it is A&E exercising their right to employ or not employ people based on the contracts said employees sign. Phil, having signed the contract, should have known what was in it and what was appropriate to say. It has nothing to do with him being a Christian.
Also, the author never said he was spreading hate.
jmcpha1 kstack34 Im not condemning anyone. It is not for me to judge, However It is Gods judgement. and the Bible clearly states where God stands on this matter. The LGBT community doesn’t have to prove itself to me. I am a sinner, just like them, same as everybody else. However we are charged with spreading gods word
kstack34 jmcpha1 cbk1 My friend, I am a pastor’s daughter and was raised in the Church from the time I was born. Please do not assume that because I don’t believe like you, I must not be a Christian. That is one of the biggest points of this post. I honestly can’t believe you’re trying to convince me that spreading love and peace is not a Christian’s job. Did you miss the part about the first and second greatest commandments? Or all the countless stories about Jesus healing the sick, taking care of the poor, and commanding his disciples to do the same? Saint Francis of Assisi is quoted as saying ” go out and spread the Gospel. And when necessary, use words.” It is so sad to me that you seem to think that spreading the Gospel is only about converting people or telling them about God. Spreading the Gospel is about mush more than words. “Faith without deeds is dead.” (James 2: 14 – 26).
Also, I’m not sure what “exactly, they dont care about peoples rights, only their rights.” means. What don’t you understand about GLAAD being about the LGBT community? They actively fight for LGBT rights all the time. I am not defending them, or condemning them. I am merely stating what a special interest group is. Would you expect an environmental special interest group to fight for Sudanese rights? What about an oil company? What about a women’s rights group? Yeah, I wouldn’t either. Because that’s not their job. As I have said several times, it IS a Christian’s job to care for the less fortunate, not to make sure that everyone openly condemns and hates homosexuals.
kstack34
And you sir/ma’am are why I’m happily Atheist after being raised as a Seventh Day Adventist.
“christianity is not about spreading peace and love”
That is the most pathetic thing I’ve heard in a long time from someone who professes to be a Christian.
kstack34 The bible clearly states a lot of things that Christians have stopped practicing and, actively discourage people form doing (stoning adulteresses anyone?). Condemning people while hiding behind the excuse “this is where God stands” does not make you any less condemning.
It’s also truly strange how you can keep missing the point of all my posts. It doesn’t matter what Phil was sharing, be it the word of God, or the Word of Poseidon. What he said broke the bounds of his contract. He is not being persecuted for being Christian, he was let go for a completely legal and common reason. Phil can certainly spread God’s word however he sees fit, but it can and will come with consequences, in this case, losing his job.
cinco cooolthings His comments about African Americans being better off before the civil rights era was pure bigotry. Even if you liked them cinco.
BillBlanken Really “NO children dying of malnutrition here”? On what planet do you live? Must be nice there.
The greatest love and mercy one can give is to warn others of where there actions will lead. To remain silent is to say that you don’t care that they are on their way to hell.
JeffCraven WhitneyHempsey I guess it just seems like any good that could be done is overshadowed by the ignorance of what was said. In order to reach people that aren’t christ followers and direct them towards Jesus we need to show love, mercy, acceptance, etc….like Jesus did for us. It’s that whole, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar theory.
Tim Romero” If a man strikes you on the face turn the other cheek that he may strike that one.” ” Be gentle as a dove and wise as a serpent.” “Give to any man that asks of you. If he asks for your coat give to him also your shirt.” When we start living by these standards people MIGHT care what we think about what they do in the privacy of their bedroom. When asked what he believes he could have said, “I believe that Jesus came to save us from sin and bondage. That he has empowered me to proclaim sight to the blind, freedom to the captives, and healing to the sick. I believe that God loves every one.”
JosephTrokeystrik9 He’s making a point through satire. That is my impression. He is showing you what it is like to have the most fundamental negative interpretation of a religion thrown at you as an unbeliever. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. THough Phill didn’t condemn any one to hell he stopped just short.
yvonne_1 If you are a Christian, then you are mistaken in your comment.
“There is no greater love than this: that a person would lay down his life for the sake of his friends.”
~The Author and Perfecter of the Christian faith.
If you are not rooted in Christianity, then you may believe what you said as you will.
kerin “Teenagers that are part of the LGBT community are three times more likely to commit suicide.”
Also Christians who identify as gay are more likely to commit suicide.
If nothing else, this suggests that maybe it isn’t as simple as we (in the church) have been told.
Yusch Frjynxyvonne_1Brilliant.
PaulCochranmygirlkacy01He also said, “He who is without sin throw the first stone.”
JeremyNaranjo PaulCochran mygirlkacy01 No stones were cast. He was just stating what a few sins were.
BillBlanken Just some facts for you to ruminate on. http://www.worldhunger.org/articles/Learn/us_hunger_facts.htm
Tim Romero “…as a follower of Christ it is my duty to stand for and support those who speak the truth.”
It is for us to stand for and support or brothers and sisters in Christ, yes.
“Phil Robertson quoted scripture and last time I checked the Bible is the Word of God,”
Jesus dealt with people on a regular basis who quoted and referenced scriptures: The Pharisees, the religious leaders. He did not stand for them or support them (though he did share meals with them).
I am NOT saying I think Phil R is a pharisee of our day. What I am attempting to communicate is that just because someone quotes scripture does not mean they are speaking the truth (Also remember when the devil tempted Jesus, he did so by quoting scripture).
jmcpha1 kstack34 You read his contract?
SarahPigg JeremyNaranjo PaulCochran mygirlkacy01 Yea, what she said
JoshRomero He said that was his opinion. To him, a vagina is better than a man’s anus for the act of coitus. He did say that he didn’t really get it… but he also doesn’t have to get it. I don’t get why people need to drink to the point of drunkenness. Personally, I find it rewarding to really be cognitive of how crazy goofy you are by being sober and adroit about that craziness. However, I don’t judge, I’m certain for those who like being drunk, it’s fun. However, vices are normally fun. Swearing is fun, but I know it’s wrong too.
SarahPiggJeremyNaranjoPaulCochranmygirlkacy01 My reply was to Paul not Phill. He said, “Jesus did no condone sin but held people to the same standards as the old testament.” In many ways that is on its face true but when people want to point out sin all the time Jesus just might point out their sin all of the time. He said this in the parable of the debtor.
Tim Romero RyanCooper123 “This may sound weird but if I am living a life that is surrendered to God”
Beware brother of religious bragging, it’s a trap I’ve fallen into much in my life:
““Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them…” ~Jesus
“I will continually offend this culture, that is my goal.”
I have no scripture to back this up, but that is a terrible goal. Your goal should be to speak the truth with love(an action not a fluffy, empty word). IF that offends then it offends. To make offense be your goal, I believe you may blind yourself and be led astray.
“when will we realize that we are the majority and God is on our side.”
Firstly, Christ’s followers are rarely if ever the majority: “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.” ~Jesus
Secondly, while “He is for us, who can be against us.” Is in scripture, this is not about taking sides.
Scripture also says that God is for both the good and the evil by providing for them what they need.
Scripture also tells the tale of Joshua preparing to lead the Israelites to war with Jericho. Joshua meets up with a man (actually an angel) with a sword drawn. Joshuas asks, “Are you for us or for our enemies” The messenger of the Lord replies, “neither.”
ChristopherShackle jmcpha1 kstack34 Nope, and neither did he, apparently. I am however, studying contract law, and did do some research before I attempted to comment on this, and I read A&E’s statement about this issue. “We are extremely disappointed to have read Phil Robertson’s comments in GQ, which are based on his own personal beliefs and are not reflected in the series ‘Duck Dynasty.’ His personal views in no way reflect those of A&E Networks, who have always been strong supporters and champions of the LGBT community. The network has placed Phil under hiatus from filming indefinitely.” When you sign a contract with almost any company, you agree to uphold the values of said company. The wording is usually vague, ie: not: “You agree not to bash gay people,” but instead says something to the affect of the employee agreeing to uphold the company’s code of conduct, and/or a morality clause at the employer’s discretion. That’s how people can get fired for posting inappropriate things and photos on Facebook, and how endorsements get taken away from celebrities who break the law, and how countless other people get canned every day. As an employer, A&E has the right to terminate employment. If they didn’t, then that would have been written in to the contract.
SarahPiggJeremyNaranjoPaulCochranmygirlkacy01Here is a good summation of the difference of tone. We know that communication is not what you say but how you say it and here is where the church fails miserably. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfuyE45FCI4
I am not angry, I am not offended, I am not defensive, I have merely shared and voiced my own christian opinion in support of a person’s rights to free speech and the freedom above discrimination. How can you be so assumptive that the church should calm the duck down when I know I am calm and as for me that is what I will say to you, “I am calm”. Your assumption is unmerited. We are not in a third world country and many people are VERY concerned about third world countries, the lost, the poor, the starving and are TRUE to THEIR CALL IN GOD while sowing seeds with their whole hearts and with their pocket books as well. You’re assumption again is unmerited. The christian community of individuals seems to be sowing seeds of concern and support over this discrimination issue right here on our own soil and you wrongfully accuse them of “needing to calm down”. Again, your assumption is unmerited. Your article is a failed attempt to discredit yet again true disciples and believers of Christ. I personally would accept Mr. Robertson in my church if I were a pastor with a whole heart and accept that HE has the Holy Spirit working in His life and allow HIM to have His own convictions. One man’s convictions are not another’s and people cannot play GOD. The God I serve is never a God of force. Sure I agree this show is a reality show, but these people are being real in entertainment and people are responding in their love for some very likeable people who are being real, fun and opinionated for their moral standing in their particular lifestyle. Haven’t you heard that Love covers a multitude of sin. I personally am excited about the GOD I serve and love and I do want to share with the world the freedom I have found since I found Christ, or He chose me I suppose. Much is not right about what A&E did to Mr. Robertson. The discrimination issue is very valid when it comes to people discriminating against people with christian values and speech but revering muslims and homosexuals by devaluing the voice of one christian believer who has made it well on public television. I have personally witnessed on homosexual programming the slamming and sarcasm about preachers without apologetics involved at all. I didn’t get on the band wagon of complaining against the homosexual view, I just changed the channel when I had heard enough. There also is much to be said about the GQ magazine asking such probing questions in the first place. Some people want to make christian’s appear to be foolish because their own personal view of christianity is that they don’t believe in God and they believe it is hocus pocus nonsense in the first place. I dare to say that I just hope their soul is ready for what they don’t know about the afterlife. Just because a christian is a peacemaker does not mean they are to lie down and be quiet while being stepped on or are expected to shrink back while everyone else has their freedoms exercised without interference. A higher power used leaders to bring about judgment with the civil war for freedoms from discrimination of black Americans and Christian’s should have the same freedom to be who they are without discrimination. I personally believe that Christians should rise up and do what they have to to obtain their rights and freedoms from discrimination I am definitely tired of it myself and I am not going to tip toe around anyone and not be allowed to be myself freely. Who the son has set free is free indeed.
cincoblueaccord19cooolthingsHere’s a scripture for you now go away behind a veil somewhere and make me a sandwich. awomenoftruth, why are you attempting to teach? 1 Timothy 2:12
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. Sarcasm obviously but hopefully you get the point.
cincoblueaccord19RandyWindborne why are you attempting to teach? 1 Timothy 2:12
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
RandyWindbornebecause you know who’s name is written in the book of life? You must be the second coming.
So, Christians shouldn’t talk about what the Bible says about sin? What a joke.
“Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God.” (I CORINTHIANS 6:9-11).”
He pretty much called out all sinners, not just homosexuals. Pay attention people.
What Bible do you read? Jesus was loving to sinners, but he certainly didn’t tell them that living in sin is okay. Seriously!
Infoczar1 nwaring How am I a homophobe? I called Duck Dynasty a fad.
Jeremy, that made no sense to me.
AndrewImlay jdallen1 Hi again, Andrew–
I wanted to respond yesterday, but Christmas with two toddlers makes for chaos and lots of late-night catch-up. :o)
You are too kind. I wish we could sit down over coffee too. You write so beautifully and thoughtfully, I feel I can easily presume your words are the product of a beautiful soul. I hope that I am not too presumptuous when I wish you a very “Merry Christmas”. Blessings on you and yours.
I am a ginger haired, left handed, Appalachian American who has dealt with prejudice on many levels. In no way do those insults compare with what I have seen and heard in reference to my Christian faith in the last two days. God bless. John 15:18-20
“If my son were gay, he better come home and talk to me like a man and not [mimicks a feminine voice] or I’d pull out a knife and stab that little n***** to death.”
-Tracy Morgan
“F**k the FBI and the army troops … fighting for what? Be your own man …”
-Soulja Boy
“Libyan Rebels kill[ed] Gadhafi, if American liberals want respect, they better stop listening to Aretha & kill Sarah Palin.”
-Orlando Jones
“But I’ve often said that if I had — I have two dogs — if I had two retarded children, I’d be a hero. And yet the dogs, which are pretty much the same thing. What? They’re sweet. They’re loving. They’re kind, but they don’t mentally advance at all. … Dogs are like retarded children.” — Bill Maher
Offended? Then stop reading, but I will continue to write.
I am not really a Duck Dynasty fan. Reality TV of any sort is just not my thing, but I DO support Mr. Robertson. He has every right to say what he said, just as the afore quoted celebrities did. The issue I take is the vast discrepancy in repercussions. Bill Maher is still working for HBO, Tracey Morgan is still a comedic icon, and so on…
Why is the backlash so brutal for this southern Christian conservative? What is the motive? Furthermore, what is YOUR motive Mr. Turner?
Yes, there’s despicable turmoil in Syria and Sudan. Yes, our country’s debt crisis is spiraling out of control. And yes, school shootings are still happening. But, I feel that the thing that could cure many of our world’s problems can be found around the dinner table, hand in hand, lifting up prayers just like the Robertson family. The way they worship and the way they interpret the Word is different than mine, but, as Americans it is their right to do so, and I’d say 90% of their audience agrees.
I will close by leaving you with this comedian who backed Barak Obama, has contracts with FX and Netflix, and continues to make millions off of his freedom of speech.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KdFJ-hFFdI8&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DKdFJ-hFFdI8
Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer. (Romans 12:12)
May God be with our country.
Are you comparing the prejudice you’ve dealt with as a blond left-handed American to the prejudice black Americans suffer? I do not “get” what you mean to say–and I had to untangle the words of Faulkner and Joyce while earning a masters in English literature.
If you could clarify what you are trying to say, I would appreciate it.
Everyone has a cross to bear, everyone has something to teach us. Everyone struggles. But I’m well aware of my privilege and grateful for the blessings I’ve received. I’m so grateful, so grateful, for the privilege of an education. I know that my quiet struggles in my soul are a privilege. Others suffer through hunger, through abuse. I will never assume that my suffering is worse than another’s, and I’m grateful for my struggles because it helps me have empathy for the struggles of others.
kerin Actually the person u should be upset with is God not Christians because God has condemned homosexuality in both the old and new testament. yes the other sins are just as sinful. Homosexuality is one of the sins that God pointed out specifically as damning . So take ur issue up with Him.
Amazing how all of you “tolerant” non-Christians feel so comfortable sharing your religious beliefs while lambasting Christians for doing the same. You can share your belief in the great spaghetti monster in the sky but Christians should only “love everyone” and spread peace and love. I am far from a Christian fundamentalist, but Phil was simply sharing his faith when specifically asked what he considered sin. Should his response have been “oh, I don’t believe in sin, I just spread love”? (Then of course the non Christians would have called him a liar…he couldn’t win.) The point is, without condemning the people, he stated his belief that the acts were sinful. If he can be punished for answering a direct question about what he believed then we all can.
Pretty white lady says stupid thing, gets fired. “If she was black no one would care!” “It’s just cause she’s white.” “White people are being persecuted” “what happened to freedom of speech?” “It’s just a joke people get so offended if you are offended it’s not her fault”
http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/thelede/2013/12/20/a-twitter-message-about-aids-africa-and-race/?_r=0
So. What say you, victims of persecution, lamenting the loss of freedom of speech?
Staceylane blueaccord19 PaulCochran JoAnneScurtoBrook scubado Tim Romero RyanCooper123
,
OK, where is your citation of these ‘FACTS”. I would like to review them before I give you any credit for them. Anyone can say something, but proof is what is required for it to be a fact.
I think this is, by far, the best blog I have ever read. ever. thank you.
kstack34jmcpha1The point is Robertson does not have freedom of employment. A&E, while loving the publicity and likely making millions, has the right to suspend, end employment, or re-negotiate their agreement with the cast of DD. I don’t watch the show, because I think it’s trite and boring. I wasn’t surprised that this guy said what he said in GQ and frankly don’t care…I don’t agree with him, but don’t care that he said it. However, if he loses his job, that doesn’t surprise me either. I’m pretty sure if i was in a national magazine and said something that embarrassed my boss and upset our clients, I would lose my job.
cbk1Actually, you are incorrect. If you look at the vast majority of groups aiding people in Sudan and other 3rd world countries where humanitarian aid is needed…it is typically either governmental agencies or liberally based groups.
PaulCochranblueaccord19JoAnneScurtoBrookscubadoTim RomeroRyanCooper123Can you please explain how archeology proves the Bible is true?
this dude has lost his mind he needs gotten rid of… of but wait its freedom od speech such as phil had. and they got rid of him… so hey keep runnin ur mouth and they will get rid of you which i hope they do…
good points here, but carries less weight from someone who is using curse words and substituting “duck” for the F-word. How can you criticize Phil for using “anus” and “vagina” (which are NOT cursewords) and then turn around and curse in your comments? Looks very hypocritical….you could have made these same excellent points here without all of that. Maybe you thought it was cute, or clever…..not really.
jnk2Christians routinely and without a second thought use “Flip” and “Frickin'”…sometimes from the church pulpit. If using those words is fine, then rhyming is probably okay too.
If Phil was lets say the Rev Al Sharpton saying something very similar about whites,or if he was Rosie Odonnell provideing her comments about straights…. Even if he was a muslim commenting on his beliefs on Christians the media would be so accepting and even welcoming of those statements, no matter how radical they might be……lets be honest in todays time we have to be so careful not to offend anybody’s race, gender, sexual preference or religion, except if you are talking about the White Anglo American Christian Male then its fair game………..Welcome to todays UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!!!
Mjime1974Okay, so what’s your outer limit? What could Phil have said that WOULD be worth getting fired? Is there anything? Or is free speech so all encompassing that an employer has to absorb any amount of embarrassment from an employer in the name of fairness?
has nothing to do with black… people r still stuck on racism. need to get a life… we r talking about christians being oersucuted everyday for believeing in the one who made us… Al Sharpton didnt make us Neither did Martin Luther King. Muslims arent worth my time neither is the president. Hes not even from America… Oh well people voted him in. So they can vote to impeach….
McRedYou are exactly correct!! Calling sin, sin is no longer accepted! The most hateful think I can think of is not telling people about Christ’s love!!! Love the illustration of stopping someone from walking in front of a bus!! I wonder if these people have ever thought that they will have to give account to God for not sharing the warnings of scripture. BTW I’m from Appalachia also, I have brown hair and blue eyes but I’m overweight, I’ve listened to insults all my life. I grew up being called white trash and even my school counselor discouraged me from going to college and suggested I look for a job! That kind of discrimination is not quite as bad as what blacks once faced but in today’s society it is probably more difficult to overcome!
And where do people come up with the idea that Christians hate everyone? Seems to me it’s the other way around! The church is the only place I was accepted. Besides if I’m accepted by Christ the rest of them and just go whine and complain, because He will never leave me or forsake me!!!
Well said… How many of these Christians were for/against Paula Deen’s firing on the Food Network, for words she spoke decades back??… or Mel Gibson, Michael Richards, Charlie Sheen… They ALL suffered the consequences for their words but because you like a Duck Show, this guy should be considered off limits?? No, justice is blind and he isn’t being “singled” out.. He is being treated just like all others who have spoken ill of others…
taylorcaprijones taylorcaprijones Regardless of all the proof of “inequality” of white folk, tv personalities like Paula Deen, Mel Gibson, Michael Richards, Charlie Sheen HAVE had the very same consequences as Phil the Duck Guy… and they were MAINSTREAM personalities…
As for freedom of speech, again just like freedom of religion and freedom of the press AKA 1st Amendment in the Bill of Rights, those rights pertain to us vs the government.. Has NOTHING to do with free market, private companies…
As for A&E choosing to suspend indefinitely, well all 50 states are “at will” states, meaning a company can hire/fire for no reason at all… They just cannot discriminate when firing… No firing occurred – he is suspended indefinitely – all legal and as a private company, A&E CAN invoke its employees to follow certain rules and procedures, INCLUDING conduct while an employee of A&E…
If Phil had some etiquette he would have censored his opinions, as the interviewer just let Phil speak.. I read the article and the interviewer didn’t ASK him his views on gays, or race, or a little unknown ignorant statement that hasn’t been picked up – referring to the Japanese as “Shintos”… Shinto is a religion, not a race, just like Islam is a religion, not a race.. He insults 2 types of religions and lumps them in with 2 political ideologies – Nazi and Communism… No the interviewer just let Phil ramble on, which seems to be what happens in that household… Phil also sees himself as our savior and believes if we all just believed like him, there would be no problems… I believe that is how Nazism began…
So just because comedians, who aren’t even in the mainstream, who are not on tv are saying things offensive, doesn’t mean they are being rewarded… Hence Andrew Dice Clay.. Where did he go after all the offensive remarks he made about women in his comedy routines???.. EXACTLY!!!
cahawk134 Really so homosexuality is a sin as if adulterers, thieves, drunkards, swindlers… Yet you have no problem voting these people into office, to represent us in the United States of America… Bit hypocritical don’t you think?? You cannot pick and choose your religious beefs… You either follow the rule of the bible COMPLETELY or take it as it is… A written book, by men who wanted to control people in a certain era, that is so outdated, that many things in the bible would be against the United States Constitutions and laws of the land….
He didn’t condone it…. He abolished it. I mean, that’s what I believe. It’s ok if we see things differently. I was just bringing a different perspective. I believe in the Cross more than sin. He said it was finished and I just do not believe He left anything undone. I study my Bible daily but certainly no scholar, it’s just my perspective. I do appreciate your response 🙂
lcplmarineI don’t even know where to begin with your comment. First of all, are you under the impression that the people can vote to impeach the President? You do know that’s not how it works, right? No, the people cannot vote to impeach.
Secondly, all due respect, but if you’re actually a Lt. Corporal in the Marine Corps, I’m going to have to reassess my stance on supporting the troops. Christians in America are not persecuted. Christians in America are occasionally made fun of. When your country has had forty four elected leaders, and all forty four have claimed to be Christian, that’s not persecution. Visit China or Sudan. That’s persecution.
Tim RomeroJoshRomeroThe Bible also says if you work on the Sabbath, you should be put to death, that you should not shave, and also endorses slavery. Those are old Testament, but still the Bible. I’ve heard alot of people say their beliefs are stricktly in the time of Jesus and the New Testament. However, when quoting Corinthians, you realize those letters were written by Paul, who NEVER met Jesus. It was 50+ years later. I consider myself a Christian because of what I’ve read that came from the mouth of Jesus himself. It’s human nature to insert your own message when telling and re-telling a story. I don’t think humans were exempt from that 2000 years ago and likely did this when writing for the Old and New Testaments. This is all just my personal belief. I have no ill feeling for Mr. Robetson, I just don’t subscribe to what he has said. I also agree with this author that it was insensitive. I’m from the same town as the DD folks and about the same age. If he didn’t see discrimination, he was blind. We had riots in one school and mass busing and outrage. If he doesn’t agree with the being gay and he’s straight…saying it’s “not logical” is just being simple minded. Having said all that, the one point that is most important in this whole issue is, A&E has every right to not like what he said, just as he does not like anuses.
Still think is was wrong to suspend the man for sharing his beliefs and his views on life from his personal experiences. I personally don’t agree with every thing he said but I took no offense because I have my own beliefs I stand behind and I don’t need to agree or disagree with anyone. It’s not like he called anyone names. He use labels and shared observations he made in his life. If any of that offended anyone they can’t be truly ok with what their doing…. So maybe they should adjust their lifestyle and change their label! If you are happy with whom you are and what you are doing nothing he said should offend you. I feel that is the ground his employer should have taken. Maybe they would have if everything was not about the almighty dollar! It shows lack of belief in the company. Believing would be to know they may lose an add or two, but with a show that popular some other company would have filled the space! As far as ratings go most likely anyone whom took offense to what Phil had to say is not someone watching a show like duck dynasty any way! If any thing ratings may go up for a little while because people offended or not are still curious creatures.
taylorcaprijones And you are comparing how christians should act to these people? And I believe the constitution allows for people to speak against the government. Robertson didn’t get arrested people!! I doubt the constitution says anything about an employer not being able to fire someone for offending their customer base. A&E can do what they want, you people can’t even understand that this isn’t about freedom of speech! It’s about an employer not wanting to employ someone, because it could hurt their customer base! Get a clue and a life! A&E is partly owned by Disney, so it wouldn’t surprise me in the least in Disney execs told them to take action. Phil could have just as easily passed over the question or kept his mouth shut.
kellyspeaksinfo taylorcaprijones Nice to see a few voices of reason in all of this!
cahawk134 And where is your proof that homosexuality is a choice and not something their born with? Oh you mean the bible? The most rewritten and manipulated book on earth? Of which it was not in the least, the first religion to come about. LEARN something about YOUR religion, before you try to make it the law of the land.
Forget religion. Get intimate with Messiah and his Father. Blueaccord19 seeks knowledge, but that tree bears only death. Seek Life. Seek Messiah.
How ridiculous. Don’t you realize that they HAVE offended its customer base?! That would be Christians who lead the crowd of the record setting viewers for Duck Dynasty. Which is also why that horrible show about sleezy husbands and fathers they slotted right after the family friendly Duck Dynasty tanked immediately. They will absorb one of the most collosal net losses in recent history over losing this show, which will not continue without Phil. I guarantee GLAAD won’t feel proud enough of their “stand” to help compensate that loss. So to recap they lose millions of viewers and customers of the countless merchandise. Go for it
I was simply making the point that there is disparity between who is punished by their media conglomerate contract and who is not. Some people can get away with anything. With that said, you can’t deny that there is a double standard.
I am for love, peace, and joy. I don’t support the views ANY of the quoted entertainers at all. I feel that their brutal language is not pleasing in the eyes of God, but there is an undeniable revelation that some face a much harsher penalty than others. I won’t shrug off a filthy comedian just because he’s a comedian doing his job. We should show a little more humanity and filter the rhetoric that comes from our mouth accordingly. I will continue to choose my words wisely, and see things for exactly what they are regardless of party affiliation. Right is right, and wrong is wrong!
blueaccord19 the problem is that the same misguided philosophy that people use to justify homosexuality is used to justify all those other injustices we are supposed to be concerned about – particularly human trafficking and it’s “feeder system” the porn industry. This is not about the Robertsons and whether they get to be on TV – it’s about speaking the truth about sin and its consequences. Jesus was VERY concerned about sin – so much so that he died for it. Christianity IS about love and grace, but it is also about justice and redemption. The Bible commands us many times to judge what is right and what is wrong – if you read the entire passage instead of just one phrase you’ll see that the warning is not to judge based on our own standards, but according to God’s righteous standard.
MatthewPaulTurner I’m not a christian, but Matthew I’m glad there are still christians like you. Many people leave the faith or don’t take it seriously because of people like all these others who defend his actions and constantly dwell on this unimportant issue. Great article and thanks for writing it!
cooolthings cinco “bigotry” – the inability to see the merits of an opposing viewpoint.”
Seems like A&E and GLAAD are doing their best to create as many bigots as possible – silence everyone who disagrees with you.
ncdurr PaulCochran blueaccord19 JoAnneScurtoBrook scubado Tim Romero RyanCooper123 Yes stacey please cite your sources for all of these FACTS, because I have done my research and science, through MANY different tests and evidence, has proved the bible wrong. There are MANY christian fundamentalist sites that state blind “facts” that have been proven wrong since the claims were made. Christian science is biased science, sorry.
ncdurr PaulCochran blueaccord19 JoAnneScurtoBrook scubado Tim Romero RyanCooper123 You can’t legitimately PROVE something if you go into the experiment with a preconcieved or biased belief. That totally destroys the whole experiment of finding the truth, because your mind is not open to ANY possibility. It is wanting a particular possibility to be true.
ExpectMoore kobe14 TimothyMcPherson ignatzz
Just like many before you, you are twisting Jesus’ teaching to fit what you want to believe. According to you, speaking of Jesus is not what Jesus called us to do. However, that is exactly what he called us to do in the great commission. It is exactly what Paul and the disciples did. I’m afraid you have chosen to believe the opposite simply because it makes things easier for you as a Christian living in a society hostile to your beliefs. By simply “doing good” for others while not telling others about Jesus, you are able to feel as though you are somewhat living how Jesus told us, while at the same time steering clear of any ridicule or derision you may receive on behalf of your faith. Thankfully Paul did not succumb to your line of thinking. Otherwise you or I would likely have never heard of Jesus. Perhaps your most disturbing quote is “Out of that action, they may never HEAR about Jesus, but many of them will know him because of the supernatural power that is the grace, peace, love and deliverance of God and his son.” In effect, you have nullified your what is perhaps your most important duty as a Christian: to tell others about the saving grace of Jesus Christ. Caring for others is important. But if all you are doing is providing food and mosquito nets to children in Africa, I imagine you will be just as effective as spreading the gospel as the UN is.
KzelloIf you read the post again, you’ll see that I never said that Christians didn’t help the poor or homeless. I just pointed out the fact that the current social media uproar wasn’t about those causes. I was simply using good important causes to shine a light on how shallow and pointless this “Phil” cause is…
Tim RomeroncdurrJoshRomeroHe did not meet him in the flesh on the road to Damascus. It was a vision that transformed him. My point is he never heard Jesus verbalize those thoughts.
Personally, I do not advocate the Army’s Position Statement on Homosexuality. I believe it is wrong and that they have fractured many lives because of it.
As far as I have read the Bible, Jesus said nothing about homosexuality. He did say a lot about divorce, though.
I appreciate your thoughts on this paul but you are missing the point. Christians are not angry about homosexuality or are they in love with Phil Robertson. This is all about free speech. It just so happened that Phil became the poster boy for free speech…im not sure if that is good or bad but its reality. other than that DD is just a nice tv show with good ratings. Free speech on the other hand is a serious issue that will get people fired up
ncdurrTim RomeroJoshRomeroI believe he wrote everything under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. I believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one and in perfect unity. What Paul wrote is the Word of God. There is no error in it and you may choose to interpret it any way you want as most do who want it to fit their own view.
It’s not controversial that the network distanced themselves from Robertson’s personal views. Most people could accept their right to do that. A&E, however, went too far when they put Robertson on “indefinite suspension.” This amounts to an intrusive effort to control Robertson’s personal liberty and free speech in what he says on his own time. And let’s be honest, there is no way that Robertson’s views could have surprised the network.
This means that they don’t care if he holds his view as long as he doesn’t talk about it — at least not publicly. Like others on this issue, they’re saying, “Keep it to yourself or keep it in your Church!” There is no safe place for publicly disagreeing with a homosexual lifestyle. Tolerance has become a strategy of power used to control people rather than a virtue to promote civility.http://thinkpoint.wordpress.com/2013/12/19/duck-controversy/
Sorry, but you are DEAD wrong, this is about FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND FREEDOM OF RELIGION, both CONSTITUTIONALLLY PROTECTED RIGHTS GUARANTEED UNDER THE FIRST AMENDMENT. AE caved into glaad, as did cracker barrel, AE proved what hypocrital asses they are by showing Duck Dynasty marathons AFTER firing Phil, Here’s to hoping the Robertson’s get a lawyer & sue the hell out of AE, it’s illegal to fire someone for their religious beliefs, which is exactly what AE did. Where is the outrage from ACLU & EEOC?
MatthewPaulTurner Kzello Wrong! It isn’t about Phil. It is about Christian’s rights to express their beliefs. For far to long the christian community has sat back and allowed the media, LGBT community etc., tell us what we can and can’t say and think. About time the Christians said enought is too much. We as Americans have the right to voice our opinon just as you do. Get over it….we ain’t going to take it any more
I must have missed something. Was somebody prevented from sharing their beliefs? What I saw was someone who exercised his beliefs freely and experienced some social consequences. That’s the way it works.
DonnaHash , no, my dear, you’re the one who got it wrong. As a public figure who is/was working for A&E, his speech reflects on his employers who do have the legal right to fire or suspend him, based on his public actions. No one is denying Robertson’s right to say those things he did, but you are giving him a free pass on his accepting the consequences of and responsibility for whatever fallout those statements may have. Where you this outraged over the public’s reaction to the Dixie Chick’s comments at the beginning of the Iraq war? Somehow, I doubt it.
Agree with most of what you said, especially on how we
should love and treat others. Where I struggle is how we handle the
inconvenient Truths of the Bible. It’s easy to talk about preaching love, and
love should rule all, but when love and sin collide I don’t think we should be
forced to sidestep Bible-based beliefs out of fear of offending. We should
speak in love but talking about sin is unfortunately offensive, especially to those caught up
in it. I don’t think Phil went out proactively trying to offend, he was asked a question to which he responded. I guess the ultimate
question is, do we take the Bible as true in what it says… even when it’s
hard and alienates some people or do we look the other way or respond “politically correct” when asked a question because we don’t
want to be offensive? I’m not being sarcastic, I’m genuinely asking the
question.(P.S., I believe we are to Love God and Love Others, despite who they are or what they do… gay, straight or whatever. We’re not called to judge, God will handle all that.)
Ok, many of us work in jobs where there are just some things we can’t say. In my position, I’m not allowed to publicly criticize the school system in our town because I work for the food service company that feeds those kiddos. OK, fine. I can live with that. This is the case in many jobs. Makes me wonder what Phil’s CONTRACT with A&E actually says. Did he violate his contract? I know A&E actively supports the LGBT movement. I don’t, because my God says that lifestyle is sin, just like lying, cheating, killing, etc. We tend to act like there are some sins that are worse than others, when in God’s eyes a sin is a sin! Are any of us perfect? No? Then maybe we should be praying for each other and speaking the truth in love.
And by the way, Matthew, it isn’t just Christians who are upset by this. On the flip side, not all of us Christians are raging about it either. Please be careful of generalizations, OK?
MatthewPaulTurner How is it pointless? It’s actually an important underlying issue. Maybe Phil himself isn’t but the point that his situation raises is. First, we all agree that sin is sin right? No one sin is any different than another regardless of how WE (as people) like to try and weight different sins as being worse than others. If I lust, I sin. If I murder, I sin. If I am greedy, I sin. Etc. Keeping that context, what about this scenario… say the Bible says that lying is a sin (which I believe it does). Then say that GQ interviews me and asks me what my thoughts on lying are. I respond, maybe in a peculiar off-color way but I respond with my basic beliefs that lying is bad. Then all the liars are offended, get all up in arms and their association speaks out publicly and I get fired from my job as a result of my beliefs on lying. I never treated liars bad or differently than anyone else, I just responded to a direct question when asked what I thought about lying and my response was what I felt was Biblicaly true. I know this is a ridiculous example but how is it any different from what happened to Phil? In this specific situation with Phil, I guess the root of the question becomes what we believe the Bible has to say about homosexuality (sin or not) and how we should respond to it when asked specifically about it. I’m not talking about how we should love, because we should love God and love others regardless (because we’re all sinners). The more difficult question is how to respond, in love, when our response is an inconvenient truth of the Bible that may be perceived as offensive to others.
MatthewPaulTurnerKzelloNo, your comments implied that we are not concerned about what you think are important. Yes, millions of Christians have commented or “liked” a post. That is the extent of time most of us spent on this issue. While you spent a great amount of time composing your column telling us how we were offending others, some of us were working with feeding the homeless and praying for those Christians be killed for their faith in the Middle East.
I know we would love to have Phil in our church. We might tell him that we think he was a little too coarse in his comments, but we love him because he loves Jesus and is bold about his faith. He can sit with me in the 4th row left aisle.
blueaccord19cahawk134Why is it that people who don’t believe in the Bible, or heaven or hell are any Christian views get so offended when we say that this is a sin? You say That what we believe is a myth, so don’t get it shouldn’t matter to you.
Though the Church should minister to the homeless, fatherless and the hungry etc., that is NOT the purpose for the Church. The primary purpose for the Church is to spread and share The Gospel. Our concern and our ministry to others should grow from the love of Christ in us but if we give some one bread and he does not know the “Bread of Life’ we have done him no favor. If we give him a home but he has no heavenly home we are not his friend. If we provide his needs as would his father and he has no relationship with my heavenly Father I have misplaced what is eternal for what is temporary.
carltexblueaccord19cahawk134It matters because there’s a wing of Christianity who’s not content to believe it, but rather enact its tenets into law for everybody, and teach the Creation and Flood stories in public school. Restrain yourself to belief, and I don’t think there’ll be much of an issue.
I’m sick of this whole ridiculous argument but this is the only really sensible article I’ve read!
http://deaconcast.com/2013/12/19/why-phil-robertson-is-the-most-dangerous-man-in-america/
BTW why is what Phil said hate and inappropriate? He only said “It seems like, to me, a vagina — as a man — would be more desirable than a man’s anus.” What’s wrong with that???
mygirlkacy01 Kacey sorry if I said it the wrong way wasn’t trying to. but I was saying is that Jesus stood with the standards and morals of the old testament.. I didn’t mean he allowed sin..He was against the same sin that was taught in the old testament… Jesus said He didn’t come to change the law but to fulfill it. We still have to stand with Gods word. What Jesus did by giving His life on the Cross was taking on our sin and giving us the way to heaven by repenting and following Him.
so we all must still work to live by the standards of the old and new testament..
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God
and for Jeremy we all sin.. what is being pointed out was what sins were… is wasn’t just homosexuality. so no one is throwing stones but it show people wanting to use a particular line to try and make a useless point..
WilliamShelton1 DonnaHash his speech reflects his employers… i laughed lol…look at the shows they are currently airing…and you think they should be caring about HIS speech! hahahahaah! You’re missing the point of free speech. Yes, A&E CAN fire him for whatever reason. This is a classic misconception: the ability to do something does not coincide with its morality. Is it legally right to fire him? Sure. Is it ethically right to fire ANYONE based off of their beliefs? Absolutely not. It isn’t right to fire a Christian for saying what he believes is sin and it isn’t right to fire a homosexual for him saying he thinks Christians are hateful. Free speech is just that: it is supposed to be outside the boundaries of CORPORATE punishment. The only punishment that should come from free speech is MORE free speech and debate! If you think that this isn’t about our rights, and I mean EVERY AMERICAN’s rights, you have lost what it means to be American.
Jane, you just brought a smile to my face ! I was beginning to lose faith in humanity after reading these posts. I too was counseled against going to the college of my choice. When I went to that school (without the counselors help), I was to told by my roommate that her teacher taught her that people who talked with an accent like mine were “stupid”. I carried a 3.95 GPa through college, she almost dropped out. I have dealt with discrimination for much of my life. It made me stronger. I identify with many minorities for this reason. My faith has sustained me through many highs as well as tragedies. I am glad to have found a friendly voice in the sea of hate in this comment thread! Thank you!
KentStraithjnk2Since when do we determine what is right and what is wrong by looking at what people do? I don’t care how many pastors use euphemisms from the pulpit….that doesn’t make it right. Your line of thought here is flawed. Pastors or Christians doing something does NOT make it right. We are to judge right and wrong by the Word of God. What does the Bible say about our conversation? Read Colossians 3:8, Ephesians 5:3, 4, Ephesians 4:29, Matthew 12:34, Psalm 19:14.
James 3:10-12 “Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.”
Jesus said “out of the abundance of the hearth, the mouth speaks”
If a person continually uses rough, vulgar or profane speech, it is an indication of what is really in their heart (Jesus said it, not me). We certainly should not just accept this as “normal” for Christian behavior, and certainly not from our pastors.
It’s red hair (Ginger) and making fun of Appalachian Americans and discriminating against us not only occurs today, but is widely accepted. There is no lobbyist group or association who defends us. We take care of that all on our own. I too have a masters in education and graduated at the top of my high school and college classes. But I did it while dealing with discrimination. I get prejudice. But these days, a special level of disdain seems to be reserved for those in the Christian faith that believe in absolute truths of any sort.
McRedI was told I couldn’t do college level work. When I worked up the nerve to try I graduated with a 3.78. This blog is so negative I think I’m going to quit following.
Ditto. Nice talking to you. God bless.
JaneScroggins Some men prefer the butthole.
Bostick1JaneScrogginsYEAH I know so why did everyone get mad at Phil Robertson? Is it just a matter of what you call it?? And the comments on this blog are getting more and more absurd!
GaryBowmanMinistering to the hungry, homeless and those in prison is sharing the gospel. See Mathew 25: 35-40. ” I tell you the truth, when you did it one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing this to me”. We pray with them and invite them to our church. If you go to the hungry and preach at them and leave them hungry. you will accomplish little for the Kingdom of God.
Uhhhhhh. It was never right for anyone to get fired for a personal belief. Just because it happened in the past didn’t make it right. It was wrong then and it’s wrong now in this case.
Yes. The answer is yes. There is no limit to free speech outside of work unless it is libel or slander about said company that the individual works for. Keep in mind that libel and slander are not just speech, but lies and deceit.
I don’t know what church the writer goes to but he needs to change what he is listening to. This topic is one of many that is important to Christians. Although there is other things going on in the world this is one of many that needs to be talk about. Why is it that Christians have to be offended because we say we don’t want to see homosexual acts of any kind on TV and when we say something we have to wonder who it’s going to offend. Why when we say it’s to much cussing on TV and violence that we have to bow down and be offended but let the common person not get offended. The Fool is you. God so love the World that who so ever believeth in him shall have everlasting life. When a person is living like that they have been turned over too a mind set that makes them think it is ok to act like that that is living in the dark and not for God. IT’s not good I don’t care how much you sugar coated it. I am a Christian and I try my best to love every body and treat every body with respect but I do not have to like there sin what ever it may be. When I became a born again Christian I gave up my sin to live for Christ. Although the word of God says be not offended by the way people act but show them love so they can live right. Don’t mean we have to like the sin and act like it is ok or agree with it. The first part of what that man said is the truth and the truth hurt sometime. Neither the adulterers, the idolaters, the male prostitutes, the homosexual offenders, the greedy, the drunkards, the slanderers, the swindlers—they won’t inherit the kingdom of God. Don’t deceive yourself
Good Grief. I feel sorry for people that need a BOOK to tell them how to live their lives, and to decide what is right or wrong….. I also can’t stand how “Christians” get to pick and choose which parts of the “Bible” that they will follow and preach. If the “Bible” is the law…. then you should have to follow ALL of the laws!!!! PERIOD!
EricPashiaI would agree that there is no limit to free speech outside of work, save for libel, slander, and that which creates a clear and present danger to the community. That said, this is not a free speech case. Nobody’s rights are being infringed whatsoever, and the First Amendment applies only to the government, not to an employee/employer relationship. “Free Speech” is a lovely concept, but it doesn’t actually exist, in that there are always consequences for the things we say or do, for positive or negative.
MatthewPaulTurnerKzello well you miss the point your self because that is what I got out of it. This is the topic at hand and to use those others to make a point was a bad choice due to Christians everywhere are constantly dealing with all those issues daily. What makes what this topic so shallow any way. He said that truth about what he believe and it was freedom of speech. I thought it was a reality show any. Yea guess what Christians every where believe in the same thing. wow
EricPashiaLet’s pretend for a moment that it wasn’t gays he was speaking out against. Let’s pretend it was blacks, and let’s say he quoted the part of the Bible that says the descendents of Ham shall be cursed, and that’s why slavery is okay in the eyes of God. This was, up until the 20th Century, a very common belief among Christians. So, are we still good? Advocating a return to slavery still free speech….can’t fire him for that?
Richardwb2 It is not a mere book; it is the literal Word of Almighty God. Given that fact, you are correct that it is inappropriate to pick and choose which parts of it one will obey. I’m the first to admit that hypocrisy runs rampant within the Christian community; which explains why this article was even written. Phil was absolutely correct to be as bold in his assertions about the appalling phenomenon of homosexuality, and it is unconscionable that anyone calling himself a Christian should be anything but supportive.
True that societal free speech may not exist in the form of laws and statutes but fighting for tolerance to be upheld in the workplace is something that should never be unpursued. Free speech should never be punished but combated with more free speech. I would hope no one would be for an employer punishing internally a person who merely expresses their opinion externally.
Richardwb2 funny you needed a book to learned your job, and to help take your driving test. You needed a book to show you how to put things together and to learn and grow. If I recall I needed to read one all through College and school so I guess we been living out of books for quiet some time now. But when someone says this book is the best book I ever read and will give you hope and piece and less worry. It will tell you how to manage your marriage, bills, and children, you turn your noise at it. Yes all the rules should be followed but what ones are you going to follow. Do you follow all the laws of the land. There in a book too.
KentStraith RobDrury KristenAdams Perhaps you missed my point, Kent. I do not turn a blind eye to persecution of the church anywhere, whether it be people killed for their faith elsewhere in the world, or simply being wrongfully admonished or unemployed right here in the US. As I intimated, Phil’s treatment is a precursor to the much more serious threats that we read about in other parts of the world, but will before long be more commonplace right here. Make no mistake, Christians will die for their faith in the good ol’ US of A; likely at the hands of our government.
dolesdMatthewPaulTurnerKzello When I was working for a social work agency run by the Methodist church — had I gone on TV and said I was in favor of equal rights for gays .. I would have been fired before I got to my car.
EricPashia seriously? Well you CAN say whatever pops into your head – but there may be consequences. Employer can and do fire people for behavior (including speech) that reflects poorly on the company. Some companies are “at will” which means that can fire you for any reason or no reason. Some companies have clauses in the contracts stipulating “appropriate” behavior/
Well said, MPT, well said!
JaniceWillifordEvans Phil can say anything he wants. He has freedom of speech. But if there is a morals clause in his contract with A&E, he needs to keep his mouth shut.
If you’re basing that prediction on prophecy, then so be it. I tend to believe it’s based more on hysterical Obama/anti-government paranoia, but I can see how it might possibly come true. The moment an anti-abortion protestor tries to storm the White House and gets shot, the line will be they were killed for their faith. As far as being executed by the legal system for their faith, I’m thirty eight, and it won’t happen in my lifetime. That’s for absolute certain.
My religious beliefs and my political beliefs are separate and yet, run together; as I speculate it does for almost everyone else. How can they not? However, one of the strategy by those on the side of the party that is trying to achieve balance of power or acceptance is to appeal to a sense of fairness and equality. The strategy is to do this without regard to the same standards that they themselves are striving to achieve.
I don’t watch Duck Dynasty, it is not my cup of tea. After the first show a friend begged me to watch I politely excused myself and have not watched it sense, so I do have an idea of the characters and the what the show is about. I would bet that all reality television shows only survive if it is creates conflict and controversy on air and off. I would not put it past the network doing this as a publicity stunt to keep ratings and viewers entangled and rating and viewership up…. as I would guess the blogger, MPT, has done here to get traffic to his site. Maybe he has his own view on homosexuality and is using this as a vehicle to share it.
But lets put down our arms and really discuss the issue here. The country has never been more divided and understandably so; people want their freedom and equality and the ability to exercise it. This creates a conflict between the two parties and there is a cost to it for both sides, those that are wanting it and those that are giving it up, the United States, as many other nations in the history of the world have gone through, was created on this one principle alone.
What are we really talking about? The Gay/Lesbian individual wants the same rights under law as the heterosexual individual has as well as the same social acceptance too. This is natural and understandable, (our nation time and time again proves that through freedom and the laws set out by the framers of the constitution really were trying to create a nation of freedom), it is the same thing that women fought for when they set out to get the vote and the same thing they fight for now to get equal pay and benefits in the work place. It is the same thing that African-American citizen has been fighting for since they were sold into slavery by their own country and countrymen.
But where the problem is, as I see it, lies in the actions and arguments of those same individuals who have been fighting for their equality, freedom and fair treatment. The laws protect “all” people, not just the citizens who object the loudest or have the most disposable income, by age, sex, or sexual orientation. Having the freedom of speech right s given to each person, and when we fail to see that we as a nation have taken away this right of whoever the character was on Duck Dynasty the problem becomes more deep rooted, because you are the same people calling for equal rights, fair treatment and the freedom of speech.
Some here have argued that the character does not have the right to share his thoughts and opinions b/c he is employed by A&E and he cannot do it publicly. He did not do it on the show, he did not do it on the A&E network so where is he supposed to exercise his 1st Amendment; in the shower, within the walls of his home because he lives in fear that if he does he might be shunned, persecuted, killed? Is this not what China faces right now and so many others that have come before us have faced?
I leave you with this thought- do onto others as you would have them do onto you. If you want freedom stand up and fight for it and do not lose hope as God will be there to protect you and guide you through the darkness.
el
elmmVery well said. Thank you.
@TaylorNikol said Jesus never stated homosexuality is a sin. By Jesus affirming man and woman being the only valid marriage is condemning anything outside that. On numerous occasions, Jesus condemned the sins of adultery (Matthew 19:18), sexual immorality (Matthew 19:9) and fornication (Matthew 15:19). These terms describe any type of sexual intercourse that is not within the confines of a marriage ordained by God. Jesus then proceeded to define exactly what God views as a morally permissible marriage. He stated:
Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh”? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate (Matthew 19:4-6).
All scripture is God breathed as holy men of old were moved to inspire them to write what they did. In other words GOD WROTE THE BIBLE not mere men. This is exactly what the bible talks about when it comes to loving the creation more than the creator (Romans 1) . I pray that God will open up hour eyes to see and know the truth
Richardwb2 i feel sorry for people who don’t read books to figure out how to live there lives. books are a short cut to wisdom.
robcreece Prove your God exists first, then we’ll talk.
as a christian the man is sharing his beliefs….your article is condiescending to Christians who may not share his point of view…you are lumping us all into one category which is stereotypical and judgemental…Live and Let Live…geez.
The proof that God exists is without Him you have no justification for knowledge, truth, logic, morals, etc. You can’t tell me why something is either right or wrong in your worldview. J have an objective standard, you have opinion. @paticklibingstonhayes You must ask yourself could you be wrong about everything you claim to know? If so you can’t know anything. As a Christian I can know some things for CERTAIN. And sir you actually do know God exists you suppress the truth in unrighteousness. Those who deny God love their sin. And you know if you acknowledge Him you must stop things you love doing that aren’t pleasing to God.
robcreece Actually I believe the bible you all read was constructed in about the 3rd century in Alexandria in Egypt. That’s when all the then church leaders got together and decided what to put in the book and what to throw out.
Toots1968you did not read the whole thing if that is what you think he is saying
If calling a behavior sin, as defined by that persons faith, in response to a line of questioning on that very topic, while standing on your own land, can warrant termination from your workplace… then this is a truly messed up country. No one wants to be perceived negatively. .. to be seen as a sinner, but to say that expressing your understanding of sin is inherently hurtful… did Christ not tell the woman at the well, go and sin no more? We must love… don’t get me wrong… but the Christian faith rests in the belief that we are all sinners in need of redemption.
I don’t watch DD. But I don’t see the hate or prejudice you see in the man’s words. I see a man who was fired for expressing the tenants of his faith, or his understanding of those tenants, when asked. Its an injustice just like firing man or woman for being gay or… for a closer example, firing a Muslim who, when asked, explains that the Koran teaches unbelievers will be condemned for their lack of faith.
The tenor of your article is great. Love must be central and there are greater injustices in the world. That being said, given the principles of religious freedom and freedom of speech that were integral to the founding of this nation, I don’t think its unfair for people to be concerned with this story.
Scripture clearly indicates that God reveals himself when and how he decides, Patrick. I would never bother proving his existence. That’s up to him.
The unique characteristic of scripture is that it is, by definition, “breathed” (inspired) by God’s Spirit. So unless you are receptive to God’s Spirit you have no valid means to understand it. Which BTW explains a few things, huh?
There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?
James 4:12 ESV
This educated, compassionate, and enlightened view brought to you by Bryan McLean.
@RobDrury Are you aware–and do you approve–of the imprisonment and slaughter of gay men and women around the world? The international spotlight is on Russia right now, but many third world countries–countries with low education rates and poorer living conditions–are also fearful and cruel to their gay brethren. These countries tend to have corrupt governments with heavy religious fundamentalist influence. So, let’s establish this: poor, uneducated countries with corrupt religious fundamentalists persecute gays. And women. So while you wear a tinfoil hat to church and make up weird futuristic things to be afraid of, people are ACTUALLY RIGHT NOW being tortured, bullied and killed. You believe it is more valuable to fear a hypothetical future infringement of Christian rights because a wealthy man made some careless poorly worded comments loosely based on the Bible, than to accept that maybe things are wonderful and blessed for Christians ACTUALLY RIGHT NOW? Because things are actually wonderful right now. Right now is probably the best it’s ever been. The internet makes it so easy to share good words and inspiring stories, to donate words money and prayer, to connect with those who have lost their way. That is a blessing from God that you are choosing to reject in order to spread fear and hate and then, even more tragically, to do this in Gods name. You can fester with hysteria that your rights are being oppressed, but I would guess that our Lord would join those freeing the oppressed and living bravely and fully, thinking not of their own suffering but of the suffering of others.
Hatred stirs up strife, but love covers all offenses.
Proverbs 10:12
There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?
James 4:12
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
Galatians 5:14
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
Matthew 7:12
Duck yeah!
The reason for the commotion is that Phil represents every Christian who believes the Bible about homosexuality. We are definitely proud of our dear brother for standing up for his beliefs in what the Bible says. Yes we care about all those other things too. I don’t know of too many unbelievers or non-believers who give to Christian Children’s fund or World Vision. You seem to think we should be silent about an important matter because there are other matters out there. As Christians we are versatile and care about every matter that matters. We believe we should be the salt of the earth. Being salt, we are preserving agents that slow down the moral decay in the world caused by such sinful behaviors as homosexuality and fornication. I ask you, Matthew Paul Turner, are you a homosexual disguised as a Christian or are you just working for A&E?
Really? “Disguised as a Christian”? A few reminders for you because the end of your post sounds awfully angry/accusatory: 1. For ALL have sinned… 2. …the Greatest of these is LOVE. 3. Judge not lest ye be judged. We are a broken race in a broken world pursuing Christ. We will not be fully redeemed in this life but redeemed with Christ. The injustice of this drama-as I outlined below- is that a man has been publicly marginalized by his employer because he expressed his religious views on sin. Thats overt intolerance from the supposedly tolerant left. Dont fight intolerance with intolerance.
Boozleford – Actually, that one Lawgiver in the United States would be the US Constitution, from which all other laws emanate, and not your religion’s god. The Constitution established the “judge”, which would be the Judiciary branch of the Federal government and its equivalents in the separate states, as established by their respective state Constitutions. This is a secular republic. Your argument is not valid.
I totally agree, I mean that individuals shouldn’t judge, and should love their neighbors, including gay neighbors. I’m a huge supporter of separating church and state.
BryanMcLean trust me honey, the parts FIT very well.
elmm because this isn’t about freedom of speech or any of that. It’s about bigotry, it’s about this country finally waking up and realizing that just as you ignore many parts of the bible that are completely ridiculous, it’s time to move on and accept that homosexuality is NOT a sin. God made us this way I will bet my, and your life on it.
He can say whatever he wants, but it is ok to mold our country to be more accepting. Teach people that feeling that homosexuals are going to hell, is a bad thing to think. You may be saying, “who the hell can judge what I think!”
this is about what is RIGHT. If this was someone saying that blacks are going to hell, and using some line from any religious item, there would be no debate. he’d just be a mean, racist person and we’d all move on. It’s funny, because people are absolutely OBSESSED with sex, and the idea of homosexuals is for some reason ridiculously controversial, that it’s ok to not be ok with gays. I’m sorry, that is not ok.
I used to live with a mindset that people should feel what they want. But i’m sorry, it’s extremely uneducated and absolutely deplorable to group and entire population of people into some sort of “sin.” It doesn’t make sense. In 100 years none of this will matter, as your great great great grand children will be raised with more equality entranced in their brain.
No one is born a bigot – that’s a learned trait. And society is finally taking action, just like so many minorities have been through, to get rid of the bigotry in this country. I wonder if you can empathize when a teen who is just coming out of the closet is being told that being who they are will surely not grant them to the gates of heaven. There are so many amazing, helpful, kind, god loving (and atheist) gay people out there with not a bad bone in their body. Just like there are terrible gays who are rapists and murderers. but that’s the thing, we’re just like any other group of people. We vary so heavily in our personalities, in our kindness, in our faith. You have to realize how public comments like that only hurt this country. And collectively can destroy generations.
You have to understand that, and this is why people are taking actions against bigots, whether it’s due to his own lack of experience with meeting gays or not – it doesn’t matter. Ignorance doesn’t matter at this point, it’s time to stop judging the group, please, i beg you – start judging the individual.
This is a prime example of what Christianity has morphed into. See the truth is no one really wants to be a christian anymore unless it benefits them in some way. We only turn to God when its convenient to us and we don’t live the way he wants us to everyday. Let one thing go wrong in life and the first thing we do is ask God why and then ask for as many people to pray to heal us or pray that God will get us out of a situation. No where in the bible does it say homosexuality is ok. But it is not my duty to decide how a person shall be judged when there time comes. It is clearly written in the bible that all sin is equal and the penalty for that sin is death. We all have the opportunity to be forgiven of the sins we commit. What I read into Phil saying is that unless we ask for that forgiveness and continue to live in sin that none of those people will be received into the kingdom of God. That is the truth and if you cannot accept that then I would question what type of church you attend. You clearly have marked Phil as some rich hunter. BEING RICH AND BEING A HUNTER HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SITUATION. I am not rich but I am a hunter and to suggest that hunters are a different class of people is stupid in its own right. Then you mention the mess in Sudan I bet you didn’t know that there are American Troops over there right now trying to stop the impending civil war right now. I pray for them that they will be safe. But true world peace is something that will most likely never be accomplished until we all accept the fact that the way most of us live each and everyday is not pleasing to God. Which is living in sin. This is the message that Phil was trying to convey. You just seam to be one of the ones that only want to here the side of Christianity that benefits you and that is not willing to accept the reality of if. All sin is equal Murder, Stealing , Bestiality, Adultery, Cursing, Homosexuality, Pornography, and ect. the penalty of it all is death no matter what it is. But all can be forgiven. We as all humans live in sin everyday and everyone of us sin daily. Accept it we all are human. I hope that god will touch the heart of each person that has such a problem with this on each side and forgive us all of our sins that we live in each day.
I don’t know what Bible you have been studying, my Bible says Homosexuality is a sin. Jesus had nothing to say on the subject, but He was a Jew and believed and quoted the Bible. After Jesus’s death, Paul reiterated that indeed homosexuality was a sin. Where people seem to get so uptight on the subject, to the point they turn away from the Bible, is that God does NOT say that one sin is worse than the other, only people think that. It doesn’t matter if your sin is homosexuality, over eating, alcohol, drugs or adultery, sin will keep you from being in the presence of God, only through Jesus can we be made sin free. I have been studying my Bible since I was 9 years old, we are NOT to judge anyone, we are to love the person, and hate the sin. But we don’t get to decide who is sinning and who is not. all of this came about because of the Phil Robertson situation. What he said was Biblical, his choice of words were unfortunate, but the fact that the Interviewer asked him his opinion on homosexuality just shows how far the media goes to call out a professed Christian, also the fact that GLAAD took an unpublished article to ET, where ET called it a RANT, just shows the agenda they have. One other thought, this question would have NEVER been asked except to a Christian, if an interviewer had asked anyone other than a Christian what they thought about homosexuality the interviewer would have been fired. You think Christians aren’t being persecuted? Think again!
The watered down Christianity you are touting is the one covered in Revelation. We AREN’T Christians, we are spiritual, we AREN’T Christians we are politically correct, we AREN’T Christians, we just want to feel good. You don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings,you will just let them go to hell from a lack of knowledge.
Winston Churchill once said,”You have enemies, good, it means you stood up for something. Good for you Phil Robertson, I might not watch your show, and I would have used different words, but you stood up for what you believe in, that is more than the majority of Christians, or for that matter most anyone else would have done.
Toots1968As long as we’re going to live and let life, can we leave gays alone? You believe what you believe? That’s fine, and I respect that. Has any of the “your lifestyle is an abomination” talk ever changed a single mind? How about, if it’s a sin, we let God deal with it when the time comes. You deal with you? Are we good? Fine. Live and let live.
robcreece The God made up by the Christian church after Jesus died, tells you how God thinks and you think because of that you know the God who will judge you. Good luck with that. Get back to me after you have stood before Him and been judged of Him. You have heard that ignorance of the law is now excuse, right?
AlexNeuelmm Nope. Just stop judging, your God already told you that’s His job.
RandyWindborne The Stupid Hurts
Sleepless in FL:
1. Paul never met Jesus.
2. It is mentioned in both Luke
and Matthew that Jesus healed a Roman centurion’s gay lover slave, and
actions speak louder than words
CurtisVick:
It is mentioned in both Luke
and Matthew that Jesus healed a Roman centurion’s gay lover slave, and
actions speak louder than words.
The Bible states clearly
that it is easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than
for a rich man to get to Heaven, so I guess Phil being wealthy is quite
relevant.
geoffreyprimanti:
If all of us are sinners, and all of our sins are different, then a Christian could also be a homosexual… without being in disguise.
KentStraith If that’s how you choose to characterize it, I guess it’s based on both. But then, it’s only paranoia if it’s not reasonably plausible, which it most certainly is. The line regarding your hypothetical prolife protester SHOULD read that he was killed for his faith, but unfortunately, that likely wouldn’t be the case. He’d be labeled a dangerous lunatic; and I suspect you’d agree that he was. Hopefully, you’re right about the timetable, but you’re probably not. I’m not that much older than you, and in my lifetime I’ve seen this country turn from unquestionably the most moral nation on Earth to a land where sound principles for living are not even tolerated, let alone followed. I’m afraid I don’t share your certainty about our future. Fortunately, God is in control.
Boozleford Wow, Boozie; you apparently need to reread my post.
DevonGalley geoffreyprimanti Of course. There are most certainly homosexual true Christians. Homosexuality is a sin just like any and every other sin. If one has accepted salvation through Jesus Christ, one’s homosexuality is forgiven. Is homosexuality acceptable? Of course not; just like any and every other sin.
RobDruryDevonGalleygeoffreyprimanti
Oh my — the old — it’s ok to BE homosexual as long as you don’t DO anything homosexual. There are many contemporary theologians who have researched the culture of Bible times. Episcopal, Lutheran and other churches are welcoming and inclusive toward Gays and Lesbians and Transgender people. Homosexuality is a part of how God made some people, the same as some people are left handed.
SueRoediger RobDrury DevonGalley geoffreyprimanti Yep; the day has come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine. Hmmm, seems like I read about that somewhere. I also read a recent statement from an Episcopal bishop who said that salvation does not come through Christ, but through our own divinity. So much for theology.
God didn’t make anyone to be homosexual. Did God make some to be serial killers? Virtually every one of the prominent ones in recent decades was found to possess the XYY genome, so it’s clear that they were “wired” that way by God, so I guess it’s okay for them to do what they did.
To put it in your terms, yes, it’s a fact that we all have a propensity for sin; that doesn’t make it okay to sin.
If it’s stupid to trust someone who has pursued and loved and healed me, I’m OK with that.
RobDrurySueRoedigerDevonGalleygeoffreyprimanti The only problem is a SIN is defined by your Christian understanding. To a Jew or a Muslim who believe in the same God as you eating pork is a terrible Sin. Who is right? In the end you have to do what you feel is good and try not to let your actions and words hurt others. Now I don’t say offend because too many people are offended to easy now days.
DevonGalley Sleepless in FL
1. But Paul did spend 3 years in Arabia where he received the Gospel from the Lord (Galatians 1:11-17). And he made a visit to the Throne of God (2 Cor. 12:1-4) where he saw things he was not allowed to talk about. In 1 Cor. 15:3-8, when Paul recounted all the Lord’s post resurrection appearances, he included himself as one who had seen Him. So, at some point, he apparently did have a physical meeting with the Lord.
2. in some instances pais was used to describe the junior partner in a homosexual relationship. But that is not what it means here nor the rest of the New Testament. The Greek noun pais is used in the New Testament 24 times and has a range of meanings that include “adolescent,” “child” and “servant.” In the LXX (the Greek translation of the Old Testament) it appears numerous times and it always refers to a “servant.” There are no occurrences of the term anywhere in the Bible that can be interpreted a referring to the junior partner in a homosexual relationship. With that in mind, we might be better off translating pais as “servant” here. Second, Michaelson acknowledges that in Luke’s version of the story the person in question is first called a “slave” in 7:2 (doulos) while the Centurion calls him apais. He suggests that this distinction is important by which I assume he is suggesting that perhaps Luke got the terminology wrong but the Centurion got it correct. But Luke is writing all of this and would have been aware of the two terms which can in fact be used as synonyms.
A better explanation for the difference in terminology in Luke might be that Matthew and Luke had a common source that identified the person in question as a pais, which could be taken as either “child” or “servant.” Matthew decided to leave the whole scene ambiguous by not introducing it with an explanation that the centurion had a sick slave (doulos). If you read Matthew’s version substituting “child” for “servant” (with the exception of 8:9 where the word isdoulos) the story could just as easily be about the centurion’s son and not his servant Luke, on the other hand, recognized the ambiguity in the story engendered by pais, and decided to clear it up by calling the person in question a “slave” (doulos) because that is who Luke thought he was. Had Luke not made that addition in 7:2 both stories could be read as the healing of the centurion’s “child.”
Third, it is true that pais could be used as a term of endearment for slaves. As bad as slavery was/is there were those cases when a slave and master did become close. But that does not automatically translate into homosexuality. For instance, we have a copy of a letter sent by Augustus to one Stephanos of Laodicea. In the letter Augustus says “you know how fond I am of my Zoilos.” This Zoilos was a former slave of Augustus who apparently became very close with the emperor. But no one is suggesting that the two were lovers in a same-sex relationship. Zoilos was apparently very valuable to Augustus and the emperor developed affection for him.
The problem is that Michaelson has invested too much in the meaning of pais. While it can be used to refer to the junior partner in a homosexual relationship, this would be the only such instance anywhere in the New Testament. As I pointed out, it is a somewhat ambiguous term. Nonetheless, I do think servant here is probably the best interpretation of pais, even though it could be child.
But simply assuming that this term means that the servant was the Centurion’s same-sex partner has no standing. There is not enough evidence. We cannot assume that because the centurion had some affection for the servant that they were, therefore, sexually involved. And we also cannot assume that just because the centurion implores Jesus to heal the servant that he feels anything for the servant. We know nothing about this slave and what role he fulfilled. But if he was a slave that managed the centurion’s house well and was in danger of dying, the centurion might have asked Jesus to heal him so that he didn’t lose his financial investment as well as a good manager. I am not saying this is the case, but this scenario is just as likely if not more so than suggesting that the two were somehow sexually involved. But in the end we don’t have enough evidence to spin either situation and the terminology is too ambiguous.
Michaelson reaches for this story to provide a way for gays and lesbians who are struggling with same-sex marriage as a religious act. (John Byron)
Let’s not twist scripture to benefit our circumstances. I do believe that Jesus loves and died for all mankind, I do believe that he does heal sinners, Jesus accepts and loves each of us sinners, however He NEVER tolerates sin. We can twist scripture to justify any of our sins, but in the long run how does that benefit us??
Sleepless, you miss the point. Some in evangelicalism today, reacting to real or perceived ‘legalism’ of the past, follow this philosophy of Christian life…the only sin is greed (or anything associated with greed) OR to dare to name a sin…other than greed.
DevonGalley Sleepless in FL
1. Paul did meet Jesus.
2. Where is this lover slave? The Greek says: “servant.” That’s a bit different isn’t it?
Devon, have you heard the one about Jack and his magic beans? It has the same credibility as servant being a gay lover….smh.
REDTROOP RobDrury SueRoediger DevonGalley geoffreyprimanti Christians worship Jesus Christ, one-third of the trinity eternally existent as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Jews and Muslims do NOT worship this God. Jews worship God the Father, so they do worship one-third of our God. Muslims reject it all and worship a God who is not at all the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Each of these three will claim that they are right. But, if “in the end you have to do what you feel is good,” you will end up in hell. So at that point, it won’t matter whether you were right or wrong. It’s not about being right or wrong; it’s about doing what it takes to have a relationship with Almighty God.
Because of humanity’s sin, Jesus (God the son) had to come into the world and die a terribly painful death in order to pay the penalty required for our sins. His death allows all who believe in him to restore the relationship with God that was destroyed by our sin.
That is truth. It is the truth of the New Testament (the Christ) and it is the truth of the Old Testament (the Messiah). It has no part or equivalent in the Muslim religion.
But none of us need to worry about which religion is right. We need only a relationship with the one who died to save sinners. And we are all sinners. So we all qualify.
I think a few folks who were followers of the show, whether they agreed with Phil or not, were more saddened by the potential loss of it from their choices of entertainment. Most of the voices I heard were saddened that it’s one of the few shows available that they find decent. I can understand that. I don’t have cable for that reason and simply to save some cash on something I wouldn’t use all that much so I’ve never seen a Duck Dynasty episode. I think a lot of people are just mourning the loss of a character and possibly even the show. At least that’s what I’ve heard and seen but I know the internet is buzzing with the Freedom of Speech angle and more.
ForrestLord Until the family’s statement in response to the suspension, the show did not seem to be in danger of ending. In fact, it’s not likely to end even now because other networks have already offered to take the show. But I think you’ve recognized an accurate emotional response–that this is one of the few decent shows out there. But I think it was not fear that the show would be cancelled but anger that A&E would make such a strong move against the patriarch of the family in the only decent show out there. Gov. Bobby Jindall expressed that well when he mentioned that Miley Cyrus doesn’t seem to cause a stir with her pornographic antics but A&E makes a strong move against a man who quotes scripture and gives his opinion to a magazine in an interview.
SandraGilletteFackler The fact is without the God of the bible you couldn’t exist. I know he exists the same way you do. The difference between you and me is you love your sin and if you acknowledge God you know you would have to give up on things you like doing.
Lets keep it simple …The Holy Spirit reveals to us and allow us to understand what Gods Holy Word truly is. There is a difference in head knowledge and heart knowledge of scripture. The devil will do his best to twist Gods Word in our minds to make us believe/justify sin. Anyone can read the Bible but if we don’t apply to our everyday lives it does us no good. Jesus made it simple to become saved. By faith, believing that Jesus was born of a virgin, died a horrible death on the cross, rose again on the third day and now is in Heaven with His Father. We shall be saved. He sent the Holy Spirit to lead guide and direct us in our everyday lives. We have to listen to the Holy Spirit, study the Bible and apply it, All of it to our lives. Yes…There are terrible things going on in the world around us and they need to be addressed and prayed about. But, I believe there are more people dusting off their Bibles and reading it this Christmas than there has been in a long time. Remember God is in control and Merry Christmas.
REDTROOP RobDrury SueRoediger DevonGalley geoffreyprimanti I certainly see what you’re saying, but you’re saying it under the apparent assumption that we have no way of knowing God’s will regarding these things, which is patently untrue.
RichardGelina REDTROOP RobDrury SueRoediger DevonGalley geoffreyprimanti Well said, Richard.
NorwoodPagan Sounds like someone’s jealous of Phil’s infinitely higher popularity. I watch neither show, but at least I knew of DD and Phil Robertson. Captain Paul doesn’t appear to be much of a “star.” More importantly, why does Captain Paul insist on making declarative statements regarding topics about which he implicitly admits to having no knowledge. To the contrary, Phil knows precisely what he’s talking about. This is not a discussion about “religion” or personal beliefs, but about the absolute reality of God’s will, and the fact that true Christians have first-hand empirical knowledge of it.
RobDruryREDTROOPSueRoedigerDevonGalleygeoffreyprimanti RobDrury — you are assuming that the collection of writing known as the Bible is accurate, inspired and true. A study of how they came to be in their present form is enlightening. I once believed devoutly as you seem to do………………..I have many doubts now. I try to live by the words that Jesus is supposed to have said……….Love God with your whole heart and soul and love your neighbor as yourself.
SueRoediger RobDrury REDTROOP DevonGalley geoffreyprimanti No; it’s not “enlightening;” it is deceiving, and intended to be so. I don’t “believe” these things to be so, as I don’t use my limited carnal understanding in discerning them. I do love God with my whole heart, but His understanding is perfect and He can take care of Himself just fine. Loving my neighbor is another issue; requiring that I care enough about him to tell him the truth even if he finds it offensive.
RobDrury NorwoodPagan ” This is not a discussion about “religion” or personal beliefs, but about the absolute reality of God’s will, and the fact that true Christians have first-hand empirical knowledge of it.”
What a crock! You have no more “first-hand empirical knowledge” of your so-called reality than I do. You have a belief system, no more, no less.
Actually WilliamShelton1, it’s Messiah Yeshua – aka Jesus – who has me.
RandyWindborne Ah, you mean the Prophet Isa (PBUH)…
jds56 You quote the first verse of Matthew 7? Pardon me, but how can you twist the Bible to mean what you want it to mean? If you’re going to quote it, then quote it in its fullest. The following two verses of verse one of Matthew 7:
Matthew 7: 1-3
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Boozleford Matthew 7:1-3
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
WilliamShelton1 Nope.
WilliamShelton1 RandyWindborne William – The prophet Issa is a liar and a fraud. Muslims say that the prophet Issa, son of Mary, was not divine but is one of the great prophets. But Issa claimed to be divine, so he was obviously a liar and a fraud. Issa is NOT Jesus.
KentStraith This strikes me as the most bizarre talking point coming from the anti-Phil Robertson side of this argument. Limiting someone’s ability to speak freely ALWAYS comes after the speech has been exercised. The force applied against Phil Robertson and the misrepresentations and demands for punitive action are exactly what makes this an attack on the right to freely speak. Other’s certainly may get upset, but going after a person with the intent to harm them because of what they said is a direct attack on their freedom of speech.
If a murderer kills someone before he is arrested and jailed, that does not mean that he was free to murder. The punitive action always comes after the act.
But unlike the murderer, Phil did nothing wrong. In fact, his speech is protected by EEOC laws. A&E disciplined Phil for religious speech. That is workplace religious discrimination and is illegal.
WilliamShelton1 DonnaHash William – A&E did not have the right to discipline Phil for his statement of his religious views. That is workplace religious discrimination and is illegal.
And your comparison to the public’s reaction to the Dixie Chicks is ludicrous. The Dixie Chicks made statements that didn’t set well with their audience. So the marketplace responded. The only similarity to what happened with the Dixie Chicks is the fact that the marketplace has responded to A&E and to Cracker Barrel – strongly. So far, Cracker Barrel has heard the marketplace and reversed it’s unwise decision. A&E, like the Dixie Chicks, seems determined to kill it’s own income by sticking with it’s ill-advised position on this.
RichardGelinaKentStraithThe talking point that I find bizarre is the idea that a an employer CAN’T limit someone’s ability to speak freely. The First Amendment does not apply in this case. “The right to freedom of speech” applies ONLY to governmental entities and has absolutely no bearing on an employee/employer relationship.
As for the EEOC laws, they don’t apply here, either, as Phil Robertson is a contracted talent-for-hire, and the only document which has any legal force here is the contact between PR and A&E Networks. I have not seen a copy of the contract, but there’s almost certainly a morals and/or non-disparagement clause. Whatever your view of homosexuality as it relates to Christianity, it is not a tenet of any religion to express your disgust at a sexual act or the relative desirability of the vagina vs. the anus. There are still churches in America that believe and teach that black people were born to serve white people because of the curse of Ham in Genesis, but I doubt you’d argue that expressing a pro-slavery position would fall under some kind of religious get-out-of-jail-free card.
In closing, I’d ask you to consider a different situation: What if you worked for Focus On The Family, and one day, coming out of a Wal-Mart in Colorado Springs, you were asked by a reporter about gay marriage, and you said “I’ve struggled with that issue, but in the end, I think it’s fine and they should be able to do whatever they want to do.” And let’s say that quote ended up on the evening news, with your name attached, and under your name on the screen, it said “Focus On The Family Employee”. How long would you have your job?
WilliamShelton1 RobDrury NorwoodPagan
“You have no more ‘first-hand empirical knowledge’ of your so-called reality than I do.”
Like Norwood Pagan, you are clearly admitting that you have no knowledge or understanding of spiritual issues. How can you consider yourself qualified to make the above remark?
RobDruryNorwoodPagan there is no – first-hand empirical knowledge – the bible is transcribed work of mouth. None of the NT writers actually knew Jesus in his lifetime … do some research on this
SueRoediger RobDrury NorwoodPagan LOL. Maybe not in His lifetime on Earth, but ALL of the NT authors knew Jesus quite intimately. Besides, I wasn’t referring to them; I was referring to myself and every other Spirit-filled Christian, who know Him as well.
KentStraith RichardGelina The EEOC laws actually do apply here, but that doesn’t really matter. Phil will not avail himself of that protection. He is not in need of A&E for any reason.
Your attempt at a contrasting parallel falls miserably short. Focus on the Family is a group dedicated to the sanctity of marriage. So if I thought homosexual marriage was okay, I would not work for them. So that’s not even a reasonable suspension of disbelief leap in the dark. At least I HOPE A&E’s reason for being is not to actually promote aberrant behavior. If, however, that IS the reason for A&E’s existence, I’m sure Phil and the rest of the family are quite glad they now know so they can separate themselves from such a vile organization (along with their 14 million viewers.
See – this is how conservatives do this. We actually try to not misrepresent ourselves. It’s far more likely that a liberal would try to lie and hide the truth while attempting to get a job at Focus on the Family in order to some day drop a bomb that makes Focus on the Family look bad. It’s just not in the nature of a Christian to behave in that way.
RichardGelina I’m not certain what A&E did to sink them to the level of a “vile organization” in your mind, other than suspend (not fire) an employee who’d embarrassed them and ensured a boycott. Pre-interview, nobody was boycotting A&E. Post interview, someone was certain to, all because of Phil. They had to choose who would be angry at them. If that makes the organization that spent $23 million on “The Bible” miniseries just this past spring “vile”, then I best be on my way, cause you’re took fickle and reactionary to discuss anything with.
KentStraith RichardGelina Nicely stated, Kent. I’m tired of responding to the reactionaries on here who are not the least bit interested in having any kind of civilized discussion. I think we both had best be on our way.
RobDrurySueRoedigerNorwoodPagan well that is certainly NOT “first hand empirical knowledge” ………… at best it is a gut feeling or intuition
RichardGelinaKentStraith Perhaps you don’t realize a great many of those viewers are watching the way you watch a train wreck — you don’t want to see but you can’t look away …………… we are laughing at the backward, backwoods self-proclaimed rednecks. As to what Phil had to say about “sin” . is anyone surprised .. he’s an old coot (or at least portrays himself that way) every family has some old Uncle who spouts off and who no one pays any attention to
danieldeckerMatthewPaulTurner ok ,,, same scenario ……….. this time the question is about slavery ………….. would you support the biblical ideals regarding slavery? Have we no evolved morally since then in our understanding of how evil it is? Sexual orientation is something we understand now in ways they didn’t then. Why are so many people clinging to the bible’s concepts ofonly homosexuality – but releasing the ideas of other topics?
SueRoediger RichardGelina You see, Sue. This is the level of disrespect we see out of the liberal left essentially all the time. The party of “tolerance” cannot tolerate anyone who marches to the beat of a different drum–especially if that drum is beating out the pattern of scripture. Yes, I’m sure quite a few people watched the show because they are low-life dreck that can find some relief in life only from laughing at others in a vain and failed attempt to make themselves feel better about their miserable lives. (Around 2 million, I believe, was the viewership of the marathon after this flap exploded – that would mean, according to your theory, that the approximately 6 million extra people who avoided watching the marathon used to watch the show because they respect the Robertson family’s education, strength, and character. I’d say that’s about the right proportion. 75% of us believe in God, respect his word, and attempt to live lives of character, the remaining 25% feed off of the hate in their own hearts.)
No – I’m certainly not surprised that Phil said these things. He is an educated, well-spoken, man dedicated to proclaiming the truth of Almighty God so what he said is no surprise at all to me. It fits with his character as I’ve seen it on the show. Perhaps you should have watched the show a few times before you commented here. It’s quite clear your speaking out of ignorance.
DevonGalley Sleepless in FL And I never said Paul met Jesus,just they were both Jews that knew and practiced the Laws in the OT. But I would say that Paul met Jesus on the Damascus road, but that was not what I was saying in my post.
. And the Greek word used in Matthew’s account to refer to the servant of the centurion is pais. In the language of the time, pais had three possible meanings depending upon the context in which it was used. It could mean “son or boy;” it could mean “servant,” or it could mean a particular type of servant — one who was “his master’s male lover.” So maybe He did and maybe He didn’t.
Neither of us know that for sure, but Jesus healed Gentiles, lepers, and many other outcasts, as far as the Jews were concerned. So what is your point? He treated everyone the same, I try and do that as well, but my point was that the Interviewer was out to get Robertson, just because he was a Christian, and that he could NOT have asked anyone that question and not been fired.
KentStraith RichardGelina I’m sorry – Apparently, I wasn’t clear enough in my response. Until A&E went public with their agenda to support the LBBT community against the clear mandates of scripture and the plain science of biology, we didn’t know they were vile. Now we know.
Broadcasting the Bible mini-series is not a quid pro quo for later proclaiming your dedication to aberrant behavior.
I guess that’s why there are lawyers on both sides. I also checked with a friend who consults for the EEOC. He said that workplace discrimination laws do apply to contractors, but that a contract can easily be terminated and would not likely give rise to a lawsuit. However, they didn’t terminate Phil’s contract. In violation of EEOC law, they suspended him. I realize you’d like to puff out your chest about it; but there simply is no case.
RichardGelina When you say, “The party of “tolerance” cannot tolerate anyone who marches to the beat of a different drum…”, perhaps you should look in the mirror. I see NO tolerance on your part for opinions that differ with yours, especially considering your sneering and arrogant tone.
SueRoediger RobDrury REDTROOP DevonGalley geoffreyprimanti Sue doesn’t the fact that out of ALL the so called Holy Books, the Bible is the only one that has had more than three hunred OT prophesy’s fulfilled, and many more NT prophesy’s fulfilled make you believe the truth of God’s word>Just the one prophesy comcerning Israel is enough to make me know that the Bible is real. It was prophesied that Israel would be destroyed as a Nation, its people scattered, and it’s language lost, BUT it also said in the end times, Israel would become a nation again, and in 1948 that happened. In ALL the known history of the world, that has NEVER before happened, but Israel, is a Nation, their people have been returning to Israel since 1948, and Hebrew is their language. If that were the ONLY prophesy that was ever fulfilled it would be enough to convince me. If you believe in God, why can’t you believe He can get His word to us in the right form?
RichardGelinaSueRoediger I watched the show many times. Phil may be educated but he certainly does not portray himself that way on the show. As for well-spoken – he doesn’t act that way on the show either. It is possible to believe in God and live a life of character without taking the bible literally. As for tolerating Phil, I am among those who wish A & E would have just issued a statement saying that Phil’s opinions are his own and let it be at that. I feel he has the right to believe as he does – just as I have the right to disagree. There are many things of the culture of Biblical times that we know better now …………..
RichardGelinaSueRoediger and as to the level of disrespect …. Phil’s tone was most disrespectful, even hateful toward gays
WilliamShelton1 RichardGelina I’m not a democrat. I don’t find tolerance to be the ultimate virtue. Discrimination, in many cases, is a sign of backbone and character. Accepting anything that comes along is not anything to which I aspire. The left is the intolerant group of bigots who love to talk about how tolerant they are.
I apologize if I have demonstrated a sneering and arrogant tone. When I speak the truth of scripture, I speak it as truth because it is truth. Truth does not need anyone to accept or believe for it to be truth. It is simply truth. I happen to know some things are true because I accept without exception what scripture presents as truth. With regard to non-biblical things, I hope I do not present my arguments in a pretentious way. If I have done so, I am sorry that I have done that.
RichardGelina Spoken like a true right-wing Christian zealot who does not understand Jesus’s message, particularly the not judging part…
When you say you “speak the truth of scripture”, how do you know it is “the truth”? Did God Herself come from on high and tell you? Or was it just the voices in your head? You have no real proof, other than an old book that not all people recognize as being divine and that was written and compiled after the fact by people who did not witness what it is said to describe.
RichardGelinaWilliamShelton1I believe in the truth of Scripture, as well. But to say “I happen to know some things are true because I accept without exception what scripture presents as true” is a self-defeating argument. You don’t “know” that what Scripture presents as truth is true. You believe it. You have faith, and faith is is the evidence of things NOT seen. That’s the difference between knowledge and belief. The arrogance is the expectation that other people will accept and cherish Scripture in the same way you have. Scripture’s importance is completely tied up in the choice to either believe it or not believe it. That’s why we (in this country) don’t make Scripture into civil law. That’s why we have to put aside our personal feelings and belief in what God thinks of gay people and simply treat them as other people. Sinners to whom Grace is available. Any condemnation or discrimination more than that is overstepping your role.
KentStraith RichardGelina I guess we have to agree to disagree on this then, Kent. When God speaks – I must proclaim his words as truth. He has spoken. He has said that homosexuality is an abomination and that those who practice it (along with a list of other bad practices) will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. So, in love, I must tell homosexuals that their behavior will land them in hell. That’s simply what God has said. I have homosexual friends who I care deeply about. I tell them this when the time is appropriate as well. And they have seen it on my facebook page over the course of this Duck Dynasty thing. One of my homosexual friends had a little friendly banter with me over it.
Like Phil, I cannot back down and will not change course, when it comes to the clearly-spoken word of God.
I don’t expect others to agree with me–in fact, I expect many of them to not agree with me because God’s word says “because they knew God, and they did not glorify him as God, nor did they give him thanks, so that they became destitute in their reasoning and became dull in their heart without understanding” (Romans 1:21).
If I must take a stand with one group or another, I must choose to stand with those who are enlightened and against those who have become destitute in their reasoning and become dull in their hearts without understanding. It just doesn’t make sense to me to do anything else. But I always welcome them into the enlightened and “quickened” camp. And I love anyone who is not yet in the group of believers because I have no idea when God will take away any person’s heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh so that they desire good instead of evil.
RichardGelinaKentStraith I’d have two questions for you, then:
1. Do you feel you have to tell them constantly. Because there’s some homosexual in America who’s somehow unaware of the Christian belief on this matter? Is one telling enough? Four tellings?
2. I assume you’re equally strident about the other abominations, then. Do you stop people on the street and tell people about tattoos when you see them?
Sleepless in FLSueRoedigerRobDruryREDTROOPDevonGalleygeoffreyprimanti there is evidence that some of the chapters were written after the things they prophesized had already happened. Leonardo Da Vinci made “prophetic drawing, Jules Verne, Aldous Huxley, and others wrote science fiction that later proved true, even Star Trek “predicted” technology that eventually happened. I believe in a God of love, in the words alleged of Jesus “love you neighbor as your self” and what Matthew says Jesus said in Matt 7:1-5 ..the part about the speck in my neighbor’s eye and the plank in my own. I don’t think it is my job to explain to others how they are sinning. When they die God is not going to call on me to ask my opinion
RichardGelinaKentStraith what then of God’s words in the Bible where he tells slaves to obey their masters………….. ??? Are we to take this to mean that it is “biblically justified” to hold slaves. Or where God orders Onan to “fulfill the law” and lie with his brother’s widow and give her a sone to be his heir ………………..???
Dear, dear Sue – undoubtedly you are aware the the “immorality” of human slavery is a quite recent devolopment, and in fact slavery continues to be an accepted practice in many cultures. How closed-minded of you!
RandyWindborne well — then you see how that works…………… Give the many contradictions in the bible, the many ways cultures have developed … how can you say that book is a guide for current life?
SueRoediger I didn’t, SueRoediger. If you think the bible is some sort of moral guideline for right and wrong, you have well and truly missed the entire point, have you not?
SueRoediger RobDrury NorwoodPagan Really? Wow; your god must be really, really small. Mine’s not.
SueRoediger Sleepless in FL RobDrury REDTROOP DevonGalley geoffreyprimanti
“When they die God is not going to call on me to ask my opinion”
Probably not. Of course, He may ask you why you allowed them to die in their sin; or more likely, He’ll simply say “depart from me; I never knew you.”
SueRoediger RobDrury NorwoodPagan Really? Wow; Sue, your god must be really, really small. Mine’s not.
RobDrurySueRoedigerSleepless in FLREDTROOPDevonGalleygeoffreyprimanti ………….well there is Matt 7:1-5 …………..
SueRoediger Sleepless in FL RobDrury REDTROOP DevonGalley geoffreyprimanti You are right, He won’t be calling to ask your opinion. I am sorry I bothered you, I thought you were really trying to understand, perhaps searching for understanding, my mistake. Whenever I see someone on these type boards, if I feel I can help them, then I try to do that. But if you are allowing the world to convince you that the Bible isn’t God’s Word then there is nothing I can do to help you. If knowing how many prophesy’s have come to realization in the Bible can’t help, then nothing I can say will chance your mind. I will add you to my prayer list, and will ask God to send someone into your life that can answer the questions you have and to lead you back to God.I pray you will have an open mind and heart.
SueRoediger RobDrury NorwoodPagan You are wrong, Matthew, John and Peter were members of the twelve original Apostles with the latter two being personally very close to Jesus. They all were close companions of Jesus in His ministry and they all saw Him alive after His resurrection from the dead.
Paul and James saw Jesus alive after His crucifixion and burial. Paul was personally chosen by Jesus to preach the gospel to the non-Jewish Roman world. James was a member of Jesus household as His half brother and a close associate of the Apostles being a prominent member of the early church.
Mark and Luke were contemporaries of Jesus and were both very close associates of the Apostles. Both had a tremendous opportunity through their association with the Apostles and many others to know the facts about Jesus.
Jude was a contemporary of Jesus and the Apostles and was a brother of James and half brother to Jesus who surely qualifies as a reliable witness to the truth.
SueRoediger RobDrury Sleepless in FL REDTROOP DevonGalley geoffreyprimanti
How ironic that we cite the same chapter.
Nowhere in my comments have I been in any way judgmental toward persons; only behaviors. Colossians 3:16 and many other verses direct us to do this. Being nonjudgmental and tolerant of persons in no way means to allow them to wallow ignorantly in their sins. Doing so would be hateful, just like allowing a blind person to walk over the edge of a cliff. It also doesn’t mean we have to be tolerant of sin in the governing of our society. If this is difficult for you to grasp, just remember that God makes no distinction between sins and applies the same standard to all. Take every “judgmental” remark you’ve read in these comments and substitute your choice of vile sin (murder, theft, torture, rape, etc.) into them and see if you still consider them judgmental statements.
SueRoediger Sleepless in FL RobDrury REDTROOP DevonGalley geoffreyprimanti I so wish i were a mathmetician so I could tell you by numbers the chance that ALL those very specific prophesy’s could happen.
But even without that how could a prophesy such as the one about Israel becoming a Nation again, not at least make you wonder if you might be wrong. No nation that was destroyed, their people scattered and their language lost has ever become a nation again, in recorded history, none but Israel.Doesn’t that make you at least wonder if you might have it wrong?
RichardGelina WilliamShelton1 Well said,
RobDrurySueRoedigerSleepless in FLREDTROOPDevonGalleygeoffreyprimantiRob, I would agree that ignorance is a real killer. But, how often are you being informative? Are you content to let a gay person know once that they’re going to Hell? Or do you think you have to make it a topic of conversation every time you see them? Do you think that the Christian belief on homosexuality is a great mystery to gay people at this point? “Wallow in ignorance”? Why, I never knew you guys felt that way! I’ll change right now!
It’s also worth asking, if as you say, all sins are equal, if you’re hanging out in online forums about sloth. Are you equally up in arms about greed? If a friend tells you about how he made a business deal all the sweeter for himself, do you let him wallow ignorantly in his sin?
KentStraith RobDrury SueRoediger Sleepless in FL REDTROOP DevonGalley geoffreyprimanti Kent… after being hit by the tsunami of your logical fallacies I dropped out of the conversation. But your misdirection du jour about whether or not we Christians see all sins as equal reminded me that I need to address something with you–just so you know that I take all of the bible seriously.
Proverbs 26:5 says, “Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes.”
Quite a few of us have attempted that in the course of this conversation. You have taken the wisdom of the word of God and rejected it and then attempted to misdirect the conversation away from the truth using the same logical fallacy the woman at the well used when she met Jesus… “Oh, your a prophet. (who is about to talk to me about my sin)? There’s a water cooler discussion about where we should worship, which side of the argument are you on?”
Jesus didn’t fall for it. Neither will I.
Proverbs 23:9 – “Do not speak in the hearing of a fool, for he will despise the good sense of your words.”
Yep, we’ve seen that enough to know what sort of person we’re talking to here. Not arrogance, just recognizing the truth of the proverb. So, now that I have an understanding of your foolish nature, I will follow the advice given in Proverbs 26:4 – “Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself.”
RichardGelinaI find it’s easier to claim a tsunami of logical fallacies than to actually list them. I bet you do, too.
just larry I will stand by what I said. There are many different sins, but the Bible says, there is only one unpardonable one, and it has nothing to do with greed, homosexuality, etc. So I will believe the Bible instead of you.As far as the “feel good” churches, they are a fast way to hell.
REDTROOP RobDrury SueRoediger DevonGalley geoffreyprimanti
Jews, Muslims and Christians most assuredly do NOT believe in the same God. The Jews follow the OT, they believe in Jehovah God, the Father, but not in Jesus and the Holy Spirit, Christians were saved by grace,we believe in the triune God so we are not under the dietary laws, and all the oher laws that the Jews follow, we both follow the ten commandments. And the Arabs don’t believe in our God, they just come from the line of Abraham, and they believe Jesus is a minor prophet. They do NOT believe in Jesus as God, not the Holy Spirit.
So I can’t really see your point as a valid point.So in the end it is NOT about doing “what you feel is good, and trying not to let your actions or words hurt others.” It is about confessing your sins to God, asking for forgiveness, and then turning away from that sin, We, in and of ourselves are hopelessly lost, and our sin seperates us from God, and only through Jesus’s blood sacrifice can we be made sin free and able to be in the presence of God.
LOL! It is not your job to explain to others how they are sinning? I’m sorry if this comes across a little harsh, but don’t claim to study the scriptures or be a Christian if you know not the mandates of God. You truly need to read the bible and study to show yourself approved. The NUMBER ONE most prominent thing that consistently happened in scripture was God using his people to call people back to him – he did this by appointing prophets who would literally go to such lengths as standing in the middle of cities shouting out all the sins that the people needed to stop committing. Has God’s love changed over the years? Does he now care nothing of using YOU to proclaim not only love but TRUTH since his spirit is available to all of us and not only prophets now? Was the mandate not “Go! And make disciples of many nations!”? Do you expect to accomplish making disciples by sitting idly by? Do you not know that even Christians will be held accountable in the Great White Throne Judgement? You must study the scriptures and break past your milk diet to consume the real meat of God’s word.
EricPashiaThere is no doctrine which teaches that Christians are called to account at the White Throne Judgment. The WTJ is a different thing than the Judgment seat of Christ. If you’re going to preach at others about studying the Scriptures and maturing, you really do need to get the terminology correct.
KentStraith RichardGelina It sure is, and your response shows that you’re probably not aware of them, so I’ll be glad to mention them for you:
1. As stated in my earlier post: misdirection. Your questions about whether or not we Christians hold the same standard for the other sins is misdirection and guides the conversation away from an argument you are unable to answer.This is considered one of the fallacies of relevance.
2. You’ve used multiple straw man arguments, such as saying that tattoos are prohibited by scripture. This would be considered a fallacy of ambiguity. Your arguments regarding slavery and it’s support among the Christian community are an example of this, although this might have come from someone other than you. The straw man arguments in this forum thread have been so common, I’m losing track of which person is making which false argument.
3. You have presented a few false dilemma logical fallacies in which you have offered either/or arguments while ignoring the third option, which was presented by me or one of the other people you were making an argument against. You have also given non options (known as complex questions) in which you have asked if I was really willing to admit that I held a certain position (subtly implying that it was a ridiculous position to hold – this is also a form of the logical fallacy of poisoning the well). Example: “do you think you have to make it a topic of conversation every time you see them?”
Sleepless in FLSueRoedigerRobDruryNorwoodPagan I am in the fourth year of a four year program ………… studying Church history. I think you should do some reading with regard to the “authors” of the Bible.
RichardGelinaKentStraithYou might think of it as misdirection because it’s convenient to do so, but the question remains. The Bible is clear on the nature of sin, and there are none greater than another. So let me misdirect you back to the question: Are you as concerned about other sins as you are about the sexual choices of other people? Other people, I might add, who do not subscribe to your religion and care nothing about its teachings to begin with?
The thing about tattoos is not a straw man. Tattoos ARE forbidden by scripture, and in the very same book which calls homosexuality an abomination. It’s most certainly not a straw man to determine the consistency of moral critics. If the critic has any integrity, he will be equally as upset about all things called “abominations”, and I’m wondering if that’s you.
I can’t make heads or tails of your third paragraph, beyond demonstrating that you know some logic vocab words.
KentStraith RichardGelina I guess I should have mentioned these things before, Kent. At this point the conversation is so far off-track that many of these logical fallacies may not seem that way. Tattoos have nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not Phil Robertson was or was not reprehensible in his comments. I have found the ensuing conversation to be quite tiresome. I have far more to do than hang out here arguing points of interpretation with folks who do not believe in the accuracy of scripture.
But I will answer your question. Then I need to get on with real life.
I believe that all sin, no matter the severity of it in our minds, separates us from a holy God who cannot abide sin. Therefore, if we have lied, stolen a Bic pen, murdered, raped, misrepresented the truth of what Phil Robertson said, or had sex with a person of the same sex… they are all equally capable of separating us from God and creating in us the need for the death of Christ to pay the penalty of that sin. And we have all sinned. So we are all headed to hell if we do not accept Christ’s atonement on our behalf.
God sees certain sins as particularly abhorrent and he lists those in scripture. There are quite a few of them. Among them are included sowing discord between two or more believers, justifying the wicked (that would include being accepting of homosexuality), condemning the just and bearing false witness and oppression of others, (those three would include attacking Phil for stating his belief and adherence to scripture), refusing to hear the law (that would include rejecting the clear presentation of scriptural mandates that have been presented in this forum, wearing the clothes of the opposite sex (that would cover the “T” in LGBT)p, homosexuality (that would include the “L,G, and B” in LGBT), and adultery (that would include the other things Phil mentioned in his original interview comments, and to which he has admitted guilt.
Regarding tattoos — I am assuming you are talking about the prohibition given in Leviticus. When you interpret the bible as I do, accepting as full truth in all matters of faith, practice, science, history, and anything else I have not mentioned, you accept the verbal and plenary inspiration of scripture. In other words, the bible was written by men who were moved by the Holy Spirit and scripture was figuratively “breathed out of the mouth of God.” So this is God speaking directly to us. Because of the importance of such communication, I must figure out the context and historical relevance of anything in scripture in order to understand it fully.
This methodology will put me in opposition with legalistic Christians who are motivated more by controlling others than by the libertarian message that Jesus died to make us free.
The passage about tattoos in Leviticus is talking about a specific situation in that culture. The tattoos talked about in Leviticus were an identification with the pagan religions. (Leviticus 9:28: “You shall not make any cuts on your body for the dead or tattoo yourselves: I am the Lord.” If you look at the context of this, which is clearly presented in that very verse, it is saying that you should not do something that is identifying you with pagan culture. That certainly applies to tattoos today. I am against any tattoo that presents an identification with paganism. So 666 tattoos, tattoos that promote sinful living, tattoos that are anti-Christian would definitely be wrong – and I would be opposed to them based on that scripture. But tattoos for decorative reasons or tattoos of the names of their family members, or celebrating and promoting Christianity are fine. Well – at least they’re not forbidden in scripture.
This is the problem with this type of a forum for this depth of investigation into what scripture teaches. These things are pretty deep and require a true understanding of hermeneutics. If you don’t know that word or don’t have a good hermeneutic, you will fail on this point. And I simply don’t have the time to present a credited college level instruction on hermeneutics.
RichardGelina I can only take issue with three points.
1. If Homosexuality is listed alongside tattoos and shellfish and use of mixed fabrics in Leviticus, and we put aside the other things as being for a specific time and place, can we also put aside in our argument of homosexuality being forbidden in Leviticus?
2. I am also well aware of the prohibition against men lying with men in Romans. As I’m sure you’re aware of the prohibition against women coming to church without a hat. Don’t we have to deal with all of these things or none of these things?
3. When you assign a label of wickedness to those who “accept” homosexuality, how far does one have to go to not accept it. Do you have to fight them? Physically keep them apart? Are words enough? If you’re truly committed to God’s word, do you not have to sacrifice your body and freedom for the cause?
KentStraith RichardGelina TEDIOUS, TEDIOUS, TEDIOUS… please don’t waste my time. If you have an argument to present, please present it. Don’t ask me if you can. I’m not pursuing anymore of your misdirection. If you have something cogent to say, please present it – otherwise, I need to wax my Camaro.
RichardGelinaKentStraith you say the mention of tatooos was “talking about a specific situation in that culture”. ………… many contemporary scholars say the same thing about the references of “a man lying with a man” as Leviticus is the priestly code………………..
RichardGelinaKentStraithIt can’t be THAT tedious, since you came out of a self-imposed retirement to defend your position by pretending the questions were tedious. The questions stand unanswered.
You say we are not to judge others, yet you spend much of your article judging Christians who support Phil Robertson. How is this not hypocrisy? Of course as Christians we all support God’s view on human sexuality (one man, one woman, in marriage), just like Jesus preached. But who are you to decide what issues I should be vocal about? Who are you to say I should spend this much time, energy, money on this area? How about the millions of babies aborted in America, since that # is higher than the one you gave for the 500 murdered in Sudan does that make you a lesser Christian because you didn’t show concern for the innocent american babies?
Personally, I am not sure if the Robertsons are Christians as they might believe in baptismal regeneration (a heresy), and I agree that this in not a free speech issue. But, I am annoyed at the so-called Christians that call their statements regarding homosexuality “wrong” or “hateful”, if that is the case – throw out your Bible and find a different religion. God is love, and He love homosexuals so much that He died for them, the least they can do is stop acting out their sinful desires (just like heterosexuals).
SueRoediger RichardGelina KentStraith Sue, you keep referring back to various merely academic references to scripture and what this or that “scholar” says. Don’t you think it’s time you had some one-on-one dialogue with the Holy Spirit over these things? I believe this will alleviate a lot of your confusion.
SueRoediger RichardGelina KentStraith Sue – I care very little about what this or that “scholar” thinks. It is up to each of us to study the word, which is clearly written so the “common man” may discern the truth. But it does require scholarship, just our own. The context of that verse, in fact the first phrase in that verse, //? is what tells us it is talking about a cultural situation. The context of the verses discussing homosexualiy do not. Some of the verses discussing homosexuality actually pinpoint a nation’s or group of people’s rejection of God as being the reason God removes his hand of protection and allows homosexuality to increase rapidly. So I would say the homosexual issue is contextually more applicable to the state of our nation currently than most other sins mentioned in the bible.
KentStraith RichardGelina And you have yet to make your argument. I will determine how much time I have to participate in this forum. When people insist on using logical fallacies or, as in your case, not even presenting an argument at all, I do not think it rises to the level of demanding my time.
RobDrurySueRoedigerRichardGelinaKentStraith — when you say “merely academic references” it sounds like you don’t put much stock in research and study. I don’t know anything of Greek or Hebrew so when I read scripture in today’s translations, I am at the mercy of whoever transcribed and interpreted. A few years ago I considered my self “unchurched” … little by little I had come to a parting with the church I was raised in. Their reliance on dogma and tradition raised many questions for me … and when I realized I am gay I knew there was no place there for me. In that church homosexuality is considered “intrinsically disordered” and the only way for me to stay in church was to live a lie and pretend to be straight, or live in celibacy. Then in 2008 someone knocked on my door canvassing for an election issue. It was a hot day so I asked her to come in for some lemonade and to cool off a bit. We chatted and she was all enthused about her church. I told her I am a lesbian and there is no church where I can be openly myself. Long story short….I went to check it out. The are welcoming and inclusive ….. I attend regularly. I pray, and meditate, I feel God led me there so I would not be one of the lost sheep. I got into the class to learn what the Bible says and how it came to be in the form it is in today.
So I do have regular dialog with the Holy Spirit……………I feel I am at home in God house … that God loves me just the way I am. The pastor, Rev. Ed Bacon, said, in a sermon and on TV with Oprah … “Being gay is a gift from God………………as is eye color, height and being left or right handed.”. Once society thought that being left-handed was a sign of evil. Lefties were shunned or beaten to change them ……. we know better now.
It may be that you, also, might benefit from some one-on-one time with the Holy Spirit………… I will pray that God will open you heart and mind to the knowledge that God loves ALL God’s children.
RichardGelinaSueRoedigerKentStraith In Leviticus it is the priestly (Cohen) code as are the other things there to set the priests apart for the rest of the people. Paul is writing about the practice of going to pagan temples and participating in orgies. Straight people male and female were doing this. This is why I am in a class at my church to learn about the history of how the bible got to be in the form it is now .. and the cultural context from whence it came.
SueRoediger RichardGelina KentStraith And, perhaps, Sue, that is a proper understanding of those two things you’ve mentioned. But when you come at scripture with a preconceived agenda, it is easy to twist things and interpret things along the way to make them support your agenda. But with regard to homosexuality, we don’t have to rely only on the scriptural mandates against homosexuality. When God created Eve, he created her as a “suitable” companion for Adam. Adam had no concept of sexuality prior to Eve, so he would not have known any different if God had given him a man. But God knew, and God created a woman for Adam. He also created marriage and defined it as being the union of a man and a woman. Genesis 2 is very clear on this: “The the Lord God said, ‘iIt is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.'” Then God directs Adam to name all the animals and birds. God had already created all of them, in male and female. Adam noticed that there were male and female animals and birds, but “there was not found a helper fit for him. So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept…. [God] made… a woman and brought her to the man.” After Adam responds in gratefulness to God, the narrative goes on… “Therefore,” which is translated in the KJV as for this reason, “a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.”
God wanted Adam to understand his need for a woman, so he made him aware of his need. Then he created a WOMAN for the MAN. And then he said, “for this reason” marriage is between a man and a woman, because a woman is suitable for a man, “fit” for a man.
When you look at the entirety of scripture, you will get a much better overall picture and have a much better understanding of God’s will than if you cherry pick verses in order to justify your sin.
You mentioned in a previous comment that your lesbianism would mean that you had to remain abstinent. Yes, it would. And that is no different for the rest of us. I have sexual proclivities as well, which scripture has forbidden. That does not mean that God made me an adulterer so it must be okay. And it doesn’t give me license to point to David’s multiple wives in some inappropriate attempt to twist scripture to soothe my conscience so may continue my practices. It means that I am sinful and I must control myself and not allow my sinful desires to turn into action.
It is not wrong to have sexual desires other than one man and one woman in a marital situation, it is wrong to dwell on them and it is wrong to act on them.
Richard, my argument has been made. And you know it. My argument is that you appear to be haphazardly inconsistent in your application of Scriptural law, based on those sins which are important to you personally. While pretending to be equally distressed across the board with any sin. Your actions, or lack thereof, indicate otherwise. I asked for some clarification on this to see if I was misinterpreting your words, and I’m not getting any. This is the argument. Stop pretending to be waiting for a different one.
Also, if you’re sticking around to talk, stick around to talk. Stop pretending to leave because this is so beneath you. We’ve all got cars, and the dead of winter is a poor time to wax them. You’re here or you’re not.
RichardGelina SueRoediger KentStraith Well said
RichardGelinaKentStraithRichard, my argument has been made. And you know it. My argument is
that you appear to be haphazardly inconsistent in your application of
Scriptural law, based on those sins which are important to you
personally. While pretending to be equally distressed across the board
with any sin. Your actions, or lack thereof, indicate otherwise. I asked
for some clarification on this to see if I was misinterpreting your
words, and I’m not getting any. This is the argument. Stop pretending to
be waiting for a different one.
Also, if you’re sticking around
to talk, stick around to talk. Stop pretending to leave because this is
so beneath you. We’ve all got cars, and the dead of winter is a poor
time to wax them. You’re here or you’re not.
KentStraith RichardGelina Kent – the reason I have said you are tedious is that you have not made an argument. You have made assumptions. The reason for the focus on homosexuality is that this thread, this blogpost comment forum is about what Phil Robertson said about homosexuality. So while the rest of us try to have a reasonable conversation, you apply misdirection in order to make yourself look better than they are by hoping that someone will bite at your bait and switch and one of your assumptive accusations will stick. That is called an ad hominem and is another, previously unmentioned, logical fallacy. Your comments are so full of logical fallacies that it boggles the mind.
If you’d like to pursue this different line that you intended as a distraction, please point out which sin I have identified as not being important. If you cannot do that, your argument is completely baseless and invalid. But perhaps if you commit yourself to reasoning through the comments and responding in like kind, you can recover this grating misstep and actually get involved in the conversation.
BTW – Yesterday, after I signed off of this thread my son and I waxed my Camaro. Then I sat on the porch in my shorts and t-shirt watching my son (also wearing shorts and t-shirt) ride his skateboard down our hill. When I sign off now, he and I will be going up into the mountains to photograph nature. We are both wearing shorts and t-shirts again, although I may change into longer pants because the temperature is usually about 10 degrees lower when we get up to around 3,500 feet than it is down here next to the river.
You don’t know very much about me so making accusations about how I see the bible, how I follow the bible, which sins I may or may not promote, or whether or not I should wax my car is… well… misdirection, ad hominem, and beneath me, but obviously not beneath you. So that is the reason I have grown very weary of interacting with you.
If I have the time when I check in here from time to time, I may respond, but I’d really love it if you actually typed something based on some thought and accepted debating techniques.
RichardGelinaKentStraithI’m not interested in accepted debating techniques. Largely, because I’m not interested in debate. I’m interested in information. Specifically, whether or not you’re as passionate and involved and boisterous in your denunciation of the other sins the Bible mentions alongside homosexuality. If so, where might I find evidence of that. If not, why not? I, quite literally, could not care less if this is the proper forum for this topic or how we arrived here in the first place. Only if you’re willing to go out on the limb that you are as anti-gluttony as you are anti-gay. Or anti-gossip. Or if you get in somebody’s face when you hear them call somebody else an idiot. After all, Jesus himself said that if you call your brother a fool, you’re in danger of the fires of Hell (Matt 5:22). Whether it’s women speaking in church (I Cor. 14), women wearing hats in church (I Cor. 11), tattoos (Lev. 19)…you seem to have nothing to say and accuse me of “distractions”. They. Are. Not. Distractions. They are issues of great importance to the Church and to the Christian because the Bible expressly condemns all of these things. You’re welcome to check in any time you like, and I’d be happy to reply any time you deign to grace us with your presence. Tell David to be careful on that skateboard.
KentStraith RichardGelina You, Kent, are a fool! You’re NOT a brother, so I’m allowed to say that. In fact, I said it way up there before because you are, in fact, a fool. This isn’t about me, and your attempt to make it about me has been addressed multiple times. You’re a fool. A fool who has admitted to not being interested in proper conversation techniques. I have already addressed tattoos. The bible does not say women are supposed to wear hats, it says their heads are to be covered. How can I hold a conversation with someone as dishonest as you?
Yes – my church follows all of the things you have mentioned, although we follow them according to scripture, not according to the misrepresentation of scripture that anti-Christian fools such as yourself present.
RichardGelinaKentStraithWell, I was saved at the age of four and have been a faithful and active member of my church ever since then. I’m a believer in the power of the blood of Christ over sin and death, and I consider you a brother. What you consider me is certainly up to you. But be careful with drawing definitions too tightly.
Women are supposed to have their heads covered. Does that mean hair, or does that mean hats or does that mean something else? Were shaven head women a problem in the Corinthian Church which needed Paul to address it specifically? And the important question: However you define “covered head”, when you see somebody in church not living up to that, do you get in their face about it? I’d love to know how your church deals with that issue. Do you have weigh ins/BMI checks prior to Communion to keep people accountable on the issue of gluttony?
As for the “anti-Christian” remark, I think that alone says a lot about how you view God and Christianity on the whole, and who’s allowed in the club as you see it. I don’t want to jump to conclusions, but I’m glad I’m at my body of believers and not yours.
RichardGelinaSueRoedigerKentStraith you lost me when you cite Adam and Eve as real ……………. you, and your congregation, have your understanding of the bible ………. I have a different understanding.
Sleepless, you misinterpreted my post…I am in basic agreement with you. Much of the church today simply doesn’t recognize or name sin. Sorry for the miscommunication.
SueRoediger RichardGelina KentStraith Since you don’t believe the bible, Sue, why do you study it?
RichardGelina, maybe she finds it to be a fascinating and historically important text. I certainly do, and I’m not a Christian.
SueRoediger I’m sorry, Sue, what do you believe about Adam and Eve? Also, could I ask your churches denomination?
AlexNeu BryanMcLean is that sarcasm Alex?
KentStraith RichardGelina How can you be saved at the age of four? You can’t even comprehend the concept of what Jesus did at that age. A faithful and active member of your church isn’t credentials for your salvation, they are meaningless representations of you faith. I’m sure you’ll say, “faith without works is dead”, and yes that’s true, but it sounds like you identify your faith by your works. Correct me if I’m wrong, I don’t want to jump to conclusions as I don’t know you, thus unable to properly inspect your fruits.
What I don’t see mentioned here is that the “Law”, as almost everyone refers to it, is actually not just one “Law” or set of laws. The “Law” can be divided into different parts. For instance, God’s moral law, which existed before the “Mosaic” law. People before Moses knew that God expected sacrifices (see Cain & Abel) and tithes. Sacrifices didn’t just come along with Mosaic Law. In fact, the shedding of blood has always been part of God’s plan for the redemption of sinful mankind. Abraham paid tithes to Melchisidec (spelling?) before tithing was mentioned anywhere else in the Bible. So, obviously God communicated expectations to His people before the Mosaic Law. How else could anyone previous to Moses live a holy life pleasing to God? Enoch lived before Moses, and he was so pleasing to God that God took him up into heaven (Hebrews 11:5).
Also, God mentions certain things that are an abomination unto Him. and other things that were an abomination to the people of Israel. These that are mentioned as an abomination to Him are part of His moral law and they do not change. Things that are an abomination to the people of Israel were intended for the Israelites and no one else. God said, “For I am the LORD, I change not” (Malachi 3:6). God’s nature and character does not change….how he deals with or relates to man may change, but His nature, character, holiness does not change. God changed how blood was used to redeem or atone for sin….first in sacrifices and then through the blood of Christ today our sins are forgiven. This doesn’t mean that God changed. He still requires blood.
The Mosaic Law can be divided into judicial law meant to govern the nation of Israel, ceremonial law intended to be used for religious ordinances (which Christ fulfilled in the New Testament) and also God’s moral law was certainly included in the Law of Moses (since God’s moral law never changes).
Its very easy and unfortunately ignorant today to lump everything in the Old Testament together as “The Law” and then be critical of Christians today who “keep this law” and “ignore that law”. First you have to have knowledge of what type of law the particular ordinance fall under. If it was ceremonial law, then those those things were fulfilled by Christ and are no longer valid. If it was part of the judicial law intended for the nation of Israel, then of course those things do not apply to us Gentiles, but if it is God’s moral law, then those are still in effect today.
Remember, Jesus said He did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it. Blood was required in the Old Testament and is still required today for our salvation. Paul said “For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins” (Hebrews 10:4) but we know that the blood of Jesus Christ certainly washes our sins away through baptism. Jesus fulfilled the ceremonial law of the Old Testament by becoming the perfect sacrifice for sin and was offered one time for us. The sacrifices of animals had to be done yearly because they were not perfect (Hebrews 10:1) but the blood of Jesus was only offered one time (Hebrews 10:12) “But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever”.
Jesus did not fulfill and thereby invalidate the moral law of God. He fulfilled the ceremonial law as related to religious ordinances and sacrifices. If God ever said “this is an abomination to me”, then He will NEVER change His viewpoint that that is a sin. It will always BE sin.
SueRoediger RichardGelina KentStraith
I see what you did there, at the end. The “God loves ALL God’s children” card. This is where I begin developing my thought process that you are very misled, and misunderstand scripture, and have perverted it to suit you life. You don’t change the Bible to suit you life, you change your life to meet the Bible. Which I already find evident in you finding acceptance in being a lesbian Christian. You’re church isn’t continuing your relationship with God, because you do not know Him.
Yes, God loves everyone, for He so loved the world that he gave His one and begotten son, and whomever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
So yes, I just quoted John 3:16, as you already know. God loved the world so much that he gave us his only son. who ever believes in him will have everlasting life. You have to accept Jesus as your savior! He loves us ALL, and that is his gift to us because he does. But its our choice if we accept it or not. Based on your statement though, “God loves ALL God’s children.” then why would it matter to be a Christian? We would all go to Heaven regardless! So the point that God loves everyone is true, he gave his ONLY son, but the second part of the verse makes it clear its up to us if we choose to accept or deny His gift.
When I say you don’t know God, I say it in the sense depicted in Matthew 7:21-23:
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. http://biblehub.com/matthew/7-22.htm Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? http://biblehub.com/matthew/7-23.htm And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
To define iniquity: “immoral or grossly unfair behavior”
then look at synonyms of the word: https://www.google.com/search?espv=210&es_sm=122&q=define+wickedness&sa=X&ei=mYG_Uq_rJpPgsATIw4KoDQ&ved=0CDAQ_SowAA, sinfulness, https://www.google.com/search?espv=210&es_sm=122&q=define+immorality&sa=X&ei=mYG_Uq_rJpPgsATIw4KoDQ&ved=0CDEQ_SowAA, https://www.google.com/search?espv=210&es_sm=122&q=define+impropriety&sa=X&ei=mYG_Uq_rJpPgsATIw4KoDQ&ved=0CDIQ_SowAA
God has described homosexuality as immoral, wicked, sin so we can be safe to say that homosexuality is included in the last word of this word.
Being a Christian means you’ve accepted Jesus as your Savior, and when you accept Jesus you’re born a new creation. The Bible says you won’t know the old you, because you’ll be a new creation seeking to glorify God. Accepting Jesus as your savior means constantly seeking redemption for your sins. As homosexuality is a sin, if you seek redemption for some sins and not ALL your sins, then you never knew Jesus, nor God, since God is Jesus and He, Him. God cannot be with sin, so if you don’t ask for forgiveness for ALL of your sins then you cannot know him as he cannot be with you. He loves you, He loves ALL, and that’s why he offered us a way to be with Him, but its up to us if we want to accept it or not. You either accept 100% of the Bible, or none of it. So if you declare to not accept Adam and Eve as a factual event stated in Genesis then you fail to grasp that the Bible is from God.
_JoshuaAbbottRichardGelina To answer your questions, Joshua…being saved at a very early age is pretty common in the Evangelical church. In my case, I was watching a cartoon version of C.S. Lewis’s “The Lion, The Witch, & The Wardrobe”, and afterward, had a talk with my mother about how Aslan represented Jesus and how He had to die to cover our sin, like Aslan had to die to satisfy the wrath of the White Witch. It’s among my earliest memories, and though my faith has grown and matured and I’ve gained a better understanding of God in the ensuing thirty eight years, that’s certainly my salvation “moment” or event. Now, let me ask you…when I tell that story in the future, what age should I make up so that I won’t get wildly presumptuous questions from strangers insinuating it didn’t really happen? If I’d said seven, would that have been okay? Because a seven year old’s understand of sin and redemption is sooooooo deep?
I don’t identify my faith through works, though I’d agree that like you (and James the Apostle) said, without works, faith is pretty tenuous. What I was doing was trying to give some context to a truly arrogant person who thinks he can ascertain someone’s spiritual status by their view on a political issue and informed me (much to my surprise) that I was not a Christian.
Thank you, I simply wanted clarification on the matter. It seems that at such a young age it is improbable that you could understand the Bible in a context that lead you to accept Hesus as your Savior. Do I believe that happened? Yes, I never said it didn’t, I said you couldn’t have understood what you truly did, and stand by that. But yes, you absolutely believe that you’ve grown to comprehend exactly what it is you accepted and have grown to a strong belief in the Bible, from what I’ve read on this thread. Personally, I believe that someone doesn’t fully understand what they’re doing until 10+ years old. Simply because it’s a mind boggling concept, and I know I don’t want my children to accept Jesus without knowing that means a life of dedication to Him. And you seem to invalidate your own point when you mock a seven year olds understanding as soooooooo deep. Yes, it isn’t, so they should wait until the fully understand what it is they’re doing. I’m not going to sit here and say you’re not a Christian, I believe you are. You’ve said gigs I agree with, and things I don’t, but it’s irrelevant as I see you’ve accepted Jesus as your Savior and Redeemer. And I only ask about your works because I’ve seen many people show off tier faith by their works and not really have a relationship. I wasn’t sure if that was the case with you, and if it was I would’ve liked to talk about it, but as you’ve answered my question, I see that it’s not. And you appear to actially have a relationship with Him and you lorify him by your works, but not by your works alone. Thanks for keeping your response constructive.
Sue, you are so deceived. If you’d finding that Matthew verse you just quoted you see that it continues on to say that you should deal with the plank in your own eye so you can see clearly to remove the speck in your brothers. That’s aka, calling you to hold each other accountable for each others sins. Please sit down and read the Bible before you percent it. It seems all your arguments you’ve made have been taught to you in a class at your “church”, and I haven’t heard you talk from personal understanding of the 100% true, Bible. If you don’t accept the Bible as fully truth, then why, and how do you claim yourself as a Christian? Blasphemy it what it is.
RichardGelinaSueRoedigerKentStraith RichardGelina I read and study the bible partly because I was raised Catholic and lt was used as a tool to control me. I used to believe literally until I stared to pay attention to the contradictions.. I began serious study to fine out what is really in it and to discover the historical context of the time it was put together. Today it is one of many sources that include the poems of Runi, the teachings of Buddah, and Desmond Tutu………….. I look to the metaphors for lessons, but not literal meanings
_JoshuaAbbottSueRoediger I was raised Catholic in 50’s and 60’s. but found things that I could just not abide … such as only baptized Catholics will go to heaven. I am currently attending and studying in the Episcopal church, particularly All Saints in Pasadena CA. I believe the story of Adam and Eve is a metaphor- a story to help us visualize a loving and personal God,,,,,,,,,,,, as is the image of God as an old gray haired father. Our Rector (like a pastor) talks of the bible as poetry or a guide for meditation.. There are food things to be found even if it is not literally true.
Personally I focus on the words attributed to Jesus – the Sermon on the Mount and Jesus answer to what is the greatest commandment. It is my desire to live like Christ .. with compassion, and caring. The two best things I like about All Saints are that they say “who ever you are and where ever you are on your journey there is a place at the table her for you” and the concept that each of us is God special child, and that God dwells in us ..and in ALL God’s children…there are no outcasts.
_JoshuaAbbottSueRoedigerRichardGelinaKentStraith Lovely fundamentalist sermon ………… I leave you to see God how ever you do …………….God dwells in you. and in ,me too. The difference is I don’t look down on you, or act like I have the only answers. A moment after my last breath. i will know the answers
_JoshuaAbbott so nice of you to appoint yourself judge,
_JoshuaAbbottSueRoedigerRichardGelinaKentStraith JoshuaAbbot …..so while you obviously see homosexuality as a sin and see yourself as justified in pointing it out to homosexuals everywhere, may I ask…………….have you the same zeal for other sins ………… divorce, gluttony, the eating of shellfish and pork ????
_JoshuaAbbott /The point is I don’t see the bible as %100 true in the same sense you do. The are many types of Christians. When I was a “true believer” in the Catholic church…………we held that we had the “one true faith” and all others – including you – were heretics. Current practicing Catholics still do.
jnk2 therefore ………….. all of Leviticus is still God’s abomination …………. yes?
robcreece ………….. clearly you believe that “all scripture is God breathed” ……. many, many do not. There are SO many contradictions in that collection of oral tradition finally set down on paper. It is not a science text, or a history book. Parts were written in different languages, translated into Greek, then Latin . then into modern languages. Each time the hand of the man holding the pen made sleight alterations – sometimes innocently through lack of skill, other times deliberately for various reasons. In the council of Nicea in 330AD – Constantine and the Cardinals of the day made choices of which books to include or reject – the main goal was the consolidation of political power. under the authority of the church.
RandyWindborne oooooooo such a sarcastic tone, especially from one who holds fast to concept of a “breathed” bible. I understand why you are fighting so hard to maintain the validity of your belief — if modern times can accept any “evolution” of theology — it shakes the foundation of your faith You are saying you have a special reception for the Holy Spirit and any who don’t see things your way are — not in the special in crowd gifted with hearing from the Spirit.
I do not believe as you do but I will not mock you for it. If it works for you fine. Your attitude of superiority is rather tiresome though.
elmm I find it interesting that the same people who are crying out for Phil’s free speech rights are also fighting against the bill in congress to prevent people for getting fired for just being gay. While I do not agree with Phil – I wish A & E had just said “Phil’s opinions are his own” and let it drop at that.
RobDrurySueRoedigerDevonGalleygeoffreyprimanti
I disagree………….people do not decide to be gay. It is like left-handedness. A newborn pretty much uses both hands equally……….by about 3 years old they show a definite dominance of one hand or the other, although some people are actually ambidextrous. But the kid doesn’t choose handedness. Long ago left handed people were vilified and punished so they would change. In pretty much the same way by the time a kid is 5 they have a sexual orientation..though most are not aware of it so young. It is not a choice …………. If you are straight it is not because you have decided that is the right way to be … you simply have not felt any other way. What a gay person feel is and natural FOR THEM as you feelings are for you. Yes the bible says different but they didn’t know then what we know now. Slavery was an accepted and normal thing then, we know better now. Men were allowed more than one wife. A man was supposed to “lie with” his brother’s widow to give her a son to bear his name. Pork and shellfish were abominations………………..
KentStraith _JoshuaAbbott RichardGelina Kent – You’re right. I should not do as you have done this entire conversation and assume things about someone I know very little about. I should simply accept what I see here, which is enough to know that you are an ass. Your modus operandi has been repeated with many people and you’ve now done it again with Joshua. You ask questions that make glaringly wrong assumptions in an attempt to poison the well and bully. These things are not assumptions–they are abundantly clear in your comments.
I have never understood why someone would present what they see as truth in a way that indicates they are not fully convinced of that truth. If they are not fully convinced, they should not be engaged in defending that position until they can study enough to be fully convinced or to change their position on the issue. If that seems arrogant to you, then in addition to being a bullying ass, you are also very insecure. But that one is still up in the air for me. I’ll continue to watch and if you continue to press logical fallacies against everyone who disagrees with you, it will be confirmed that you are very insecure in your beliefs, just as your actions hitherto have proven to all that you are an ass and a bully.
SueRoediger _JoshuaAbbott Do you believe in a literal Jesus ,Sue? Because Jesus believed that Adam and Eve were literal people and not a metaphor.
SueRoediger _JoshuaAbbott RichardGelina KentStraith Where does this stupidity come from? Sue, you and Kent are stuck in this mode of casting aspersions on others who you know nothing about. Sin is sin. Although, if this is the way you and Kent want to carry on this conversation, perhaps I should ask you if you are as lax with other sins as you are with homosexuality. Would you be okay with murder? How about rape? Do you encourage pedophilia? Do you actively pursue drunkenness? Does your church use scripture to defend lying, bestiality, torture? Do the metaphors in the bible encourage you to be a polygamist?
This method of non-conversation might make you feel good, and it certainly indicates that you DO look down on those who disagree with you, but it does not further the discussion.
RichardGelina, your comments to Kent, in which you call him “arrogant” and “an ass” show the depth of your Christian attitudes… You’d best look in the mirror before you call anyone an ass. You will see the perfect image of one staring back at you…
RichardGelinaKentStraith_JoshuaAbbottRichard…you seem to be unfamiliar with the idea of a rhetorical question, and consider the existence of a question I already know the answer to “bullying.” I do have to say that it’s ironic that someone who defends maintaining the status quo of systematic public discrimination against a group of people based on their rejection of your religious conviction is now complaining about bullying. Somebody who believes they are appointed by God to forcefully bring other people into line with teachings they don’t believe in is complaining about bullying….over some uncomfortable questions? My questions were designed to point out that you feel very strongly about homosexuality and believe it’s your duty to wage war against it, while only falling back on a limp decree that your church believes that all sin is equally bad, while steadfastly not living it out. You accuse me of distraction and poisoning the well, and I’m simply trying to get an answer to those questions. By the way, if “the well” is your freedom to consider some sins really important and worthy of your constant scorn and derision, I am only too happy to poison it.
SueRoediger – though I’m unfortunately quite talented at sarcasm, none was intended. The wildly disparate scripture interpretations evident in this discussion indicate either God does not exist, God is not willing to speak to us, or we’re unwilling to hear him.
SueRoediger – the TANACH aka Old Testament is generally translated directly from Hebrew to the host language. Regardless, if God’s Spirit does not reveal God’s heart, or if we are unwilling to hear, scripture has no meaning or function.
KentStraith RichardGelina _JoshuaAbbott Kent – you are as wrong as you could possibly be. I have not said that I want to force anybody into anything. I have told you what the bible says about homosexuality. Your questions assume all kinds of bad things about me, all of which are wrong. You even made assumptions about where I live. You are bombastic, arrogant, and delusional.
I’m am quite familiar with rhetorical questions; you have not utilized that technique yet. Perhaps you should go back to your earlier sworn position of not carrying about methods of civil debate since you know so little about the definitions of terms.
RichardGelinaKentStraith_JoshuaAbbottRichard, I beg you to hear this and hear it well: You will not be able to insult me into shutting up. My questions are not designed to insult you. They’re designed to point out inconsistency. I remain anxious to hear why you’re on fire about homosexuality and not the other sins mentioned alongside it in similar language. You can address this, or state your intention to continue ignoring it. Either one will bring this to a close. What will not bring it to a close is name calling.
KentStraith RichardGelina _JoshuaAbbott You have made a baseless assumption and have attempted for the entirety of this discussion to distract me from the topic of this discussion, which is what Phil Robertson said about homosexuality. I answered you as soon as you asked and told you that all sins are equally effective at separating us from God. I do NOT get in people’s faces about homosexuality; I mention it when the conversation turns that way only. I do have some other issues that are significantly more important to me. If you would like to read what those are and actually learn something instead of remaining willfully ignorant (that’s not an insult, it’s a simple fact — you ARE ignorant about me and have chosen to assume a great many false things), you may find my thoughts about a variety of issues on my blog http:richgelina.blogspot.com.
The Holy Spirit lays different concerns on each of our hearts, if we have accepted the truth of scripture and are worshiping the God presented there–not a God of our own creation. Homosexuality is actually not a primary concern of mine, which is probably why I have two close friends who are homosexual and we get together regularly–at least once a week–just for friendship. About the only time I mention my beliefs about homosexuality are when my friend’s wife wants to debate scripture. She, too, was raised Catholic and enjoys comparing the things she was taught growing up with the Evangelical thinking on those things. Sometimes the conversation turns around to homosexuality and if I need to point something out from scripture, I do. But if the conversation doesn’t require that, I don’t go there. I really hope you understand what I’m saying when I use the term “require.” Your propensity for assuming the worst of your opponent is shocking.
The issue I am most concerned with on my blog is that of twisting scripture in order to force others into a certain behavioral pattern. I am libertarian to the core and do not believe in forcing others into anything. I am opposed to the government getting involved in the issue of homosexual marriage at all. They should not prohibit it and they should not condone it. It’s, frankly, none of their business.
But my libertarian worldview does not mean that people should not discuss their beliefs. In fact, as a libertarian, I believe in the free flow of ideas from all points of view. What I do not like in my personal discussions is when people, such as yourself, use improper argument techniques intended to bully and smear their opponent. It is tedious and unproductive.
I know you will still accuse me of holding homosexuality as the worst sin and ignoring others, but you are absolutely wrong about that. I will mention just one other sin that I have worked very hard against–the sin of abortion. I was employed as the editor of a pro-life magazine for 7 years and have been involved in pro-life activism for 27 years. My method of being pro-life is not to bully women into my way of thinking, but to encourage respect for the sanctity of life. One of the many ways I acted on this was to open my home to a young crack addict who was pregnant and had been kicked out of her parents’ home because of her third pregnancy. She had aborted the first baby. She carried the second to term and was raising her in her parents’ home. Her parents did not want another child in their home so they demanded that she abort this third pregnancy. She felt very guilty about the first abortion, so she went to see her priest (Anglican). He advised her to abort. Then I hired a friend of hers and her friend asked me to talk to her about her options. Eventually, she asked if my wife and I would adopt her son. We said that we would love to.
My son, David, is that baby who was saved from a premature death by my pro-life activism (and my wife’s). He is bipolar, has Sensory Integration Dysfunction, Oppositional Defiant Disorder, Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, Autism Spectrum, and severe ADHD, along with what Children’s Hospital described as “a grab bag of other emotional and behavioral disorders.” This is the result of the crack cocaine in his birth mother’s system while he was in utero. But he is also highly intelligent and has a tremendous love for life. It has been a difficult road, but he is now 18 and a high school graduate and has a job at the restaurant where my wife works.
I hope this story helps you to understand my nature better — I am NOT the person your questions and comments have indicated. But I was trying to remain focused on the topic of this discussion, which was not gluttony or women wearing hats in church.
RichardGelinaKentStraith_JoshuaAbbottOkay. That’s mostly what I was going for. The Spirit has laid on you a special concern. I don’t know how libertarian you actually are, but you sound like a genuinely good guy.
I read your blog a couple days ago, but thanks for the link.
SueRoediger _JoshuaAbbott Apparently you don’t have a firm understanding of what ever verses you’d like to pick that say, “don’t judge others”. Like Matthew 7:1 it talks about don’t judge others when you have a plank in your eye. But if you would take the time to understand the WHOLE verse and not just the part that suits your beliefs, you’d understand that it continues to say that you should remove the plank from your eye SO you CAN REMOVE the speck in your brothers eye(aka fellow Christian). I’m called to judge you and tell you that your in sin. I’m sure your definition of the word “judge” is skewed, so let me define it in its simplest, truest form, it means “to evaluate”. So yes, I am evaluating you and trying to tell you that your drowning in sin. If you would study some of the Bible that you use to talk to others with, you should understand the whole context of the verses. Don’t take the first verse or second verse out of a 3 or 4 verse context. If the verses speak on the same topic, use the whole part of it, not just the part of the whole that suits you. I don’t look down on you, if I looked down on you, I wouldn’t try to show you the error in your understanding. I’m sorry, but its an error. If I saw any part of your remarks that resembled a true understanding I would be at ease, but you seem to have twisted the Bible to suit your life. You found a church that doesn’t hold you accountable but encourages you in your pursuit to have the Bible suit you. You asked RichardGelina to open his heart and pray to God for understanding and a more open mind, I pray that for you. Richard seems to understand the Bible perfectly fine on his own, and knows his faith, and hasn’t just quoted things hes learned in a class or something preached to him. Hes researched and studied and draws his own conclusions about the Bible, and he supports his views with the Bible; a good understanding and base of his belief. Where I see you support the Bible with your views. A backwards way to understand Gods, 100% true book, given to us as 1 of 2 amazing gifts that He offers.
RichardGelina KentStraith _JoshuaAbbott SueRoediger I think that this thread has gotten out of context from the original story. The original post was dealing with his comments on homosexuality, and partially, why Christians are so lax on other issues. Regarding other issues like gluttony and greed and such, they’re being referred to as a sin when they’re held higher than God. God has no problem with someone being rich, its when they hold their riches higher than they hold God. The eye of a needle argument is talking about it in that sense. Now, regarding the original topic of the thread, homosexuality. The Bible is clear that acting in it is a sin. It never claims homosexuality as a sin, it refers to the actions, man shall not lye with another man. Its the action that is condemned. What are y’alls understanding on the matter? I genuinely would like to know.
jdallen1 AndrewImlay Chaos here too! Congratulations on the toddlers, I envy you the experience of raising children (assuming the toddlers are yours) because I don’t have children…fantastic for them and fantastic for you…God bless your family. Andrew.
KentStraith RichardGelina _JoshuaAbbott Thank you for saying that, Kent. And I am extremely libertarian, but I am also a rule follower. That’s an odd combination, I know. But the rules have to be from a authority who has the right to set the rules. I don’t go much for man-made rules.
SueRoediger RobDrury RichardGelina KentStraith
Looks like we’re going to have to break this one down bit by bit:
“…it sounds like you don’t put much stock in research and study… I am at the mercy of whoever transcribed and
interpreted.”
I am at the mercy of the Holy Spirit.
This overcomes any and all barriers of language or human interpretation.
“In that church homosexuality is considered ‘intrinsically disordered…’”
Well, since you’re so inclined to value scholarship and academia over
spiritual authority, consider that as late as the 1970s the American
Psychological Association categorized homosexuality as a psychological
disorder. The World Health Organization
held this view until 1990. It was very
clear that their reasons for changing their official stances were purely
political and not based at all on any conclusive new evidence. I would appropriately go a step further and
categorize it as both a psychological and a spiritual disorder.
“…and the only way for me to stay in church was to live a lie and
pretend to be straight, or live in celibacy.”
Wow; so it’s your way or the highway.
Maybe God should get a vote?
“So I do have regular dialog with the Holy Spirit……………I feel
I am at home in God house … that God loves me just the way I am.”
Your “interaction” with the Holy Spirit is conveniently compatible with
what you readily admit to being nothing more than your emotions and sexual
preference; and the best validation of those feelings comes from an obviously
biased and agenda-serving guest on Oprah.
Next…
“The pastor, Rev. Ed Bacon, said,…
“Being gay is a gift from God………………as is eye color,
height and being left or right handed.”
I’m sure Reverend Eddie did say that.
Unfortunately, God said the opposite.
“It may be that you, also, might benefit from some one-on-one time with
the Holy Spirit.”
Of course. That’s how I reached
my conclusions.
“I will pray that God will open you heart and mind to the knowledge
that God loves ALL God’s children.”
I guess we define “God’s children” very differently. I choose to define God’s children the way He
does; as those who know Him personally and have received salvation through
Jesus Christ. If you define them as all
human beings He created, then yes; He does in fact love them all, but He will
be sending the vast majority of them to hell, largely due to their ignorance.
SueRoediger RichardGelina KentStraith Sorry; there are no differing valid understandings of the Bible; there are only correct ones. The rest are misunderstandings. Adam and Eve are not, as you suggested elsewhere, metaphors; they were actual human beings who actually walked this Earth. Anything to the contrary is one of those misunderstandings.
RobDrurySueRoedigerRichardGelinaKentStraith Faith is the holing on to one’s beliefs — without resorting to facts or reason. You believe what you do ………… fine. I hope it comforts you. your last paragraph ………is the essence of delusion.
RobDrurySueRoedigerRichardGelinaKentStraith If Adam and Eve were actual persons ,,,,,,,,,,, all humans are the offspring of incest.
SueRoediger RobDrury RichardGelina KentStraith I have beliefs; that is, those things that I accept without being able to confirm them as irrefutable fact. However, given the critical nature of directing others in the area of sin, and recognizing that I am in an allegedly Christian forum, nothing I have discussed here falls into that category. I’ve limited my discussion to absolute confirmed reality. When I discuss a belief, I’ll be certain to label it as such.
SueRoediger RobDrury RichardGelina KentStraith
“If Adam and Eve were actual persons ,,,,,,,,,,, all humans are the offspring of incest.”
Yup; what’s your point?
The best way a Christian should defend traditional biblical marriage is to hold their own marriages in high and holy honor and esteem. But that is not happening as divorce rates and high incidence of adultery, pornography, neglect and abuse will testify. What hypocrites we can be.
RobDrurySueRoedigerRichardGelinaKentStraith No sir – you have not discussed “absolute confirmed reality”, you believe Adam and Eve were real people, and I’ll be you believe the earth is around 6 thousand years old. Wow. just wow
SueRoediger RobDrury RichardGelina KentStraith No, I don’t claim to knowl the Earth’s age. That’s because I don’t know the Earth’s age. I do KNOW that Adam and Eve were real.
You happen to believe that homosexuality is normal. Wow, just wow.
SueRoediger RobDrury – Yes – it DOES mean that Adam and Eve’s children married each other or they married their nephews or nieces. But man had not fallen so far yet… sin had not yet caused the damage it eventually did over time. The gene pool was clean. Incest did not cause the blood trouble it is prone to now.
Incest was forbidden by God many generations later when the gene pool had reached a point of mutation (loss of information–the opposite of macro-evolution) that raised a high likelihood that the offspring two immediate family members would have serious problems.
Another thing that must be done when we read the bible is remember that it was not written in 2013 and it does not describe things that happened in 2013. It is not metaphorical except when it says that it is. With that in mind, sexual relations between Adam and Eve’s offspring is not a bad thing.
But we can also look at it scientifically, for those of you who believe the bible is as reliable as Harry Potter or the Twilight series. Scientists recently reported that all humankind descended from one woman (Mitochondrial Eve) who they think lived somewhere in northern Africa. They got the dates of her existence wrong, but the name “Eve” and the location fit with scripture. They were pretty quick on this one. It took them only about 5,000 years to discover what Moses transcribed for God so long ago.
SueRoediger RobDrury – So then, Sue… What would holding onto one’s beliefs without resorting to facts or reason look like? Would it potentially look like someone who believed herself to be created by God to have sex with another woman and who held to that belief despite the fact that her church stood against it, the scientific and medical community stood against it for thousands of years, and if everyone lived that way it would mean the annihilation of all human life within one generation?
I see your point. And, yes, it is delusional to act in that way. And I’m glad that you finally agree with scripture on that point because God said, “you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do,in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity” (Ephesians 4:17-19).
Walking in “futility of their minds” in order to “give themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity” kind of sounds like that delusion you were talking about.
lynne0652 I agree. And that is the reason why the bible includes the book of James even though such notables as Martin Luther thought it should not have been included in the canon of scripture. We must show our faith through our works, as James proclaims, and we must call sin sin, as all the other epistles (plus James) say.
SueRoediger – Per Torah God first spoke light into existence. In our ‘olam,’ time is a function of light. Since the Creator is outside the realm of creation, the point of creation (on the timeline/lightline) would be entirely at the Creator’s option … and indiscernible to those within the timeline. It’s like selecting the zero point on a temperature scale. Theoretically our olam (universe/age) could be -20 years old from God’s perspective and we would be unable to tell the difference.
SueRoediger RobDrury – Nope – about 8 to 10 thousand years old. And since no one was around to observe the creation of the world and no one (other than God) could ever reproduce it, the scientific method says that an old earth (older than what the bible says) is a theory. And it is a theory based on science, which has to update and edit its theories every year so the new textbooks will be accurate with their new explanations of things that they were found to be deficient on during the prior year.
The bible, despite what you said after you corrected your statement that it was originally written in Latin, has not been adjusted. And to believe that there was a conspiratorial attempt to change scripture in thousands of manuscripts without being caught doing so and while destroying all evidence of the tampering (as you have alluded to previously) requires faith far greater than simply believing “absolute confirmed reality” as presented in scripture.
All you have stated in this conversation is theory. And all theory requires faith. Your scholarship and the scholarship of the church to which your itching ears directed you is bankrupt. Look to the Holy Spirit for guidance, not to scholars who have studied for years how to baffle others with their ignorance.
SueRoediger Regarding “faith,” the concept is more accurately translated as “trust.” Normally, trust is developed over time as we experience someone’s character … or lack thereof. Scripture indicates even demons believe in God, but clearly they don’t trust him.
RandyWindborneSueRoedigerWhat does that even mean? Time is a function of light? We don’t measure time according to the speed of light. Our most accurate timing methods are measured by the radioactive decay of a cesium atom.
RichardGelinaSueRoedigerRobDruryI’m interested in the 8000-10000 year estimation. Where does that come from? A literal reading of Genesis, with “year” meaning what it does today leads to a creation date of 4004 BC, which would just over 6000 years since creation.
SueRoedigerjnk2 No….just the parts where he says, “this is an abomination to me.”
KentStraithRandyWindborneSueRoediger Time & light: general relativity.
KentStraith RichardGelina SueRoediger RobDrury Sorry, Kent – I meant to say 7 to 8 thousand years. That’s based on calculations from the bible taking years and days as literal days and years (in keeping with Jesus’ understanding of the story of creation). The calculations various people have made range from a creation date of around 5500 BC to a date of around 3800. So I guess the actual range for the earth’s age would range anywhere from 6,000 to almost 7,500 years. My personal belief is that the earth is slightly more than 6,000 years old. I take that belief by faith in scripture, which I believe was delivered to us by the only person who was an eye witness to creation–God himself. Those who believe in an old earth take their belief by faith in fallible man who admits yearly that they were wrong.
So both positions require faith. From my point of view, far less faith is required to believe that this world was created by a designer than is required to believe that this world happened by accident in a manner that has never before been observed on earth and has never been able to be duplicated in the laboratory.
RichardGelinaKentStraithSueRoedigerRobDruryAs far as faith goes, I fully believe in an intelligent designer, specifically God. I believe that Man was created in the image of God, with curiosity and intelligence and a sense of order and ability to solve problems. To believe in a young Earth is to believe that God gave us all of these curious, inquiring attributes, and then not only asks us to believe that everything we know about science is wrong, and where science disagrees with faith, then choose faith, because…….faith. It’s to believe that God has made our eternal destiny dependent on choosing to discard discovery and common sense in favor of…..faith. To believe that God created stars with light already on the way leads to the inevitable question of why? Why would God go out of his way to fool us? Why would he create a vast, literally cosmic illusion that so completely obscures the TRUE age of the universe?
RichardGelina lynne0652
If you think we are called to constantly harass gays about their sin while our own houses are rotting from sin, then I almost feel sorry for you and your tremendous ignorance of the true work of Jesus Christ. Almost.
lynne0652 I agree. However if we wait until we are perfect to speak out against sin then we will never be able to come out against sin EVER! Thru our acceptance/tolerance shall we let them continue down a path to hell? Is is better to just be nice and get along? Do we not speak out against politcal issues that can morally effect major change in our society? Changes that effect what is taught in schools? Changes that result in Christians assisting in abortion? or being a part of wedding ceremonies? Pedophilia is next. Read what is going on in Canada right now. They are sayiing they are born that way and soon they will have rights….what shocks us now will be the new norm tomorrow.
RichardGelinaKentStraithSueRoedigerRobDrury So the discovery of any artifact, or bones that is dated older that 55BC – is what? a hoax, a conspiracy?
lynne0652RichardGelina Oh my — thank you lynne0652 — yours is the rare voice of compassion on this page.
KellyDenoyerRussell lynne0652 Kelly… your comment brought tear to my eye. You are so right! We need to seek the Lord in prayer. He is in control, and he weeps at the wickedness too. We are not alone. And he will win.
KentStraith RichardGelina SueRoediger RobDrury Amen, Kent. Amen! God has done exactly that. He has said, “believe me … even when the scholars say no.” I ask you… who is telling the truth. Have the scholars ever lied? Has God ever lied? I will believe God until … until … forever. And ever. Nothing will ever convince me that the God of this universe… the designer… the person who knows everything and about whom we cannot even come close to comprehending is wrong. Nothing. I will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS side with God. Even when his spotlight shows that I am a sinful and pathetic creature. See my blog. And, thank you, Kent. You brought my attention to something I needed to consider.
lynne0652 RichardGelina I’m sorry the truth has offended you. I do not relentlessly harass gays or point my condemning fingers at them. You, like the other agenda-driven commenters here have proven by your inaccurate assumptions that you have no place at the table of thought and conversation.
RichardGelina KentStraith _JoshuaAbbott
There is only one ass and bully here, Richard. You are he.
KentStraith RichardGelina _JoshuaAbbott
You are too kind, Kent. The Spirit has laid on me a special concern for 25 years and that is the extreme unfairness that Christians have exhibited in our treatment of the LGBTQ community. Richard is unstable, accusatory and totally belligerent in his comments especially toward you personally.
lynne0652 KentStraith RichardGelina _JoshuaAbbott Speaking on the subject of how old the earth is. God creates things at an aged state, he created Adam and Eve at aged states, so why couldn’t he just as easily create the earth at an aged state? The age of earth is based on our understanding of science when God created it how he wanted. Now, people turn testing with carbon dating as fact of how old earth is. I agree with Richard on his claim that the earth is only 6-8 thousand years old. God lives outside of our laws of gravity and time. He speaks to us using terms that we created, so yes, I believe the 7 days of creation literally took, 7 days, as He explains to us.
Lynne – How is Richard unstable, and totally belligerent? He literally just states exactly what the Bible says. I’m sorry if her understanding isn’t the same as his, and therefore abides by it in a different comprehension. But you can’t read the posts and say her understanding is biblically sound. I see his comments and posts no more belligerent and accusatory as the words written in the Bible. You certainly won’t want to read my former posts if you find his to be so egregious, as I’m sure mine will be portrayed as hateful, when, to my best belief, am stating scripture and explaining it.
RichardGelina KentStraith _JoshuaAbbott
I saw your blog and the single most remarkable aspect of it is the lack of readership and comments – for years! No one wants to engage with you. Your air of superiority, your arrogance and name-calling is indefensible. And you call Kent an ass and fool? Outrageous!
You are so full of yourself, Richard Gelina, that it is impossible to see Christ shining through. I pray you will begin to hear the sound of the Savior’s voice over your own so you may possess the compassion required to just stand for a few minutes in another man’s shoes.
RichardGelina lynne0652
The truth offend me? Oh, you poor man. By no means. You are the only offense here that I can see – you are so full of yourself that no one can really see Christ through your arrogance, name-calling and air of superiority.
And that really is the point of it all – to show them Christ. When you fail that, what good have you done for the lost or for His kingdom? (Don’t answer that – it’s a rhetorical question.)
KellyDenoyerRusselllynne0652I’m not certain what’s going on in Canada, but pedophiles DO have rights and SHOULD have rights…as long as they live within and obey the law. There’s not, in my lifetime, going to be a law in any country in the modern world that de-criminalizes sexual conduct with a minor. Pedophilia is NOT “next”. because the public will not allow it. Bestiality is NOT next, largely because nobody wants to do it and it’s largely an invented bogeyman. There is a difference between conduct between legal, consenting, rational actors and sexual assault.
And yes, Kelly, at some point, you have to let somebody go down a path to Hell. The logical extreme is kidnapping and brainwashing them, and you probably wouldn’t have that. When somebody makes their choice on how to live, and your feelings are known and there’s been a discussion, it’s over. At that point, yes…it’s better to get along.
lynne0652 RichardGelina KentStraith _JoshuaAbbott Thanks, Lynne. When proclaiming my beliefs according to my reading of scripture makes me an ass and a bully, I will wear the label with pride. Jesus said this would happen to those of us who followed him. So I am not surprised.
lynne0652 KentStraith RichardGelina _JoshuaAbbott Lynne – The Spirit of who has laid on your heart a special concern for those who defy His will?
KellyDenoyerRussell, so would you care to back up your claim, or, rather, insinuation, that Canada is on the road to granting pedophiles rights? How about some context? Credible sources? It seems to me that the only places that are broadcasting and supporting your claims are groups like StormFront, you know, that paragon of neo-Nazi Christians who are long on hate and extremely short on love for anyone who is not a white, heterosexual non-Catholic, non-Orthodox “Christian” (i.e., their definition, not mine).
RichardGelina, please read my response to Kelly… you are SO wrong it is sickening.
lynne0652 RichardGelina KentStraith _JoshuaAbbott What was your motivation for writing this, Lynne? Is striking out against me for no reason at all something that you were led to by the Holy Spirit? I think not.
_JoshuaAbbottlynne0652KentStraithRichardGelinaWhy the Genesis creation account reads like a metaphorical explanation of unfathomable events to primitive people is this: On the fourth day, God created the Sun, Moon, and stars. What is a “day” without the Sun? On the second day, God divided the heavens from the earth. What does that mean?
If God created Adam and Eve in, let’s say, their mid-twenties, wouldn’t it be more likely to be because human beings require a great deal more attention and care in childhood than, say, fish…and that’s probably not indicative of why he would create a star that was already in its death throes, cosmologically speaking. If everything God creates is perfect (pre-sin) would He create any stars that were about to die? Did He create the moon with craters? Why would He create a scarred, pockmarked moon, with literally every possible evidence of having been bombarded by meteoroids for millions of years if it was brand new? In short…why would God, who loves humanity and desires that no man should perish, lest the alternative be eternity in Hell, create a world that is designed from the cellular level up to fool humanity into thinking that it’s older than it really is? Why would God create a world that points to anything other than the truth?
KellyDenoyerRussell lynne0652
Kelly, why not tend to our own burning houses and let the Lord deal with the lost as they come to Him’ just as they are’? If not, we are like clanging cymbals and hypocrites of the very worst kind.
Our own Christian marriage and family travails are causing far more destruction in quantity and vileness (adultery and pornography specifically) than homosexual activities. It might be different if we could offer our own good and godly marriages as models to aspire to – but we do not. Our hypocrisy is insidious and far more reprehensible to Christ than the sin we are condemning. This is obvious by looking at the people who inspired anger and disappointment in Jesus and why they did so (Matthew 23).
We are doing a miserable job of winning the lost to Christ. Just miserable! Nothing is gained – nothing except further isolation from God for people who are struggling and literally jumping off cliffs to be rid of the pain.
It’s as if we Christians are standing between God and His beloved children like a firing squad, locked, loaded and ready to fire at anyone who dares to come close to the Lord before we get our hands on them to ‘straighten them out’.
How do we live with ourselves, I wonder sometimes? And after we send them away and put down our guns, more than half of us will run to our computers, surf for porn and pleasure ourselves with the same hands that will hold the Holy Bible in the morning, praying for those ‘homos to see the light’. Disgusting hypocrites!
RichardGelinalynne0652KentStraith_JoshuaAbbottThere’s a difference between being thought of as righteous and being thought of as a bully. There’s very little doubt that Pope Francis is a righteous man, and nobody thinks of him as a bully or an ass. In a single year, one man’s application of the love in Scripture has gone a long way toward cleaning up the reputation of the Church. Jesus said blessed were the righteous, and they will be persecuted. He also said that blessed were the meek, the poor in spirit, the humble, and the peacemakers. When you examine your role on earth, Richard, is it to loudly proclaim the way things should be, and to point out how others are doing it wrong, or to encourage more people to be like Christ. Encourage people to follow him because they want to be like you? If God has laid a spirit of confrontation and belligerence on your soul, I suppose I have a hard time arguing about it. That’s simply not how I interpret a Christian’s mission on Earth.
KentStraith RichardGelina lynne0652 _JoshuaAbbott Women and men think significantly differently and present arguments significantly differently when they speak with men or women. Had I know, Kent, that you were a woman in disguise, I would have commented very differently. I’m sorry for any confusion that may have caused.
RichardGelinaKentStraithlynne0652_JoshuaAbbottWhat on earth are you talking about? I’m a thirty eight year old man, and never claimed to be otherwise. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt on the idea that you’re not saying that someone who prefers peace over confrontation must be a woman. Because that would be utter idiocy, and you surely don’t mean that.
KentStraith RichardGelina lynne0652 _JoshuaAbbott Wasn’t saying that at all, Kent. I did a search on your name and came up with a few sites (Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, etc.) and the only ones that really told me anything were registered to a woman whose middle name is Kent. Sorry for the mistake. Although it was helping me to understand some of your earlier posts. 🙂
RichardGelina
What makes you an ass and a bully is the way you talk to others.
Jesus told his disciples they would be blessed when they were hated, excluded, reviled and their names spurned as evil, (Luke 6:22), but he did not tell them they would be labelled asses and bullies. You carry that distinction on your own, apart from Christ’s validation.
RichardGelina
Holy Spirit
RichardGelina
The reason for my writing this is for your admonishment and yes, I am led by the Holy Spirit in bringing this message to you.
_JoshuaAbbott lynne0652 KentStraith RichardGelina Joshua, To clarify for you, I stated that Richard is unstable and belligerent, not because of any scriptural references he makes, (though he does engage in the same type of cherry-picking he accuses others of doing), but because of his inability to convey his faith without personally attacking others and couching his argument in a sickening arrogance that drowns out anything relevant he may bring to the discussion.
I don’t know whose posts you are referring to, Joshua, when you say “her posts”. I am not speaking of anyone’s ‘sound biblical understanding’, or lack thereof. So I’m not sure where you got that. My comment is strictly in regard to Richard Gelina’s demeanor as I have observed throughout this thread, particularly as he responds to Kent. The following are direct quotes of his during some of their exchanges:
“It’s quite clear you’re speaking out of ignorance.” “I realize you’d like to puff out your chest about it.” “You, Kent, are a fool!” “…because you are, in fact, a fool” “You’re a fool.” “How can I hold a conversation with someone as dishonest as you?” “…anti-Christian fools such as yourself present.” “I should simply accept what I see here, which is enough to know that you are an ass.” “…just as your actions hitherto have proven to all that you are an ass and a bully.” “You are bombastic, arrogant, and delusional.” There is plenty more, but I think you get the picture. These highly inflammatory, unnecessary and rude statements speak to his instability and belligerence in dealing with others. No further comment is needed from me about this matter, I should think.
lynne0652 RichardGelina You do realize, do you not, that the unpardonable sin is defined in the bible as attributing the work of satan to the Holy Spirit? Tread carefully, Lynne. Your eternal soul is at stake.
RichardGelina lynne0652 KentStraith I hear far too often people say, “the Holy Spirit led/ is leading me to do this”. Lynne, I seriously doubt you’re feeling called to bring you message. You say “they would be labelled asses and bullies. You carry that distinction on your own, apart from Christ’s validation.” but thats a little too much. He simply says, because of my name, you will be hated. Calling someone in ass would be a sign of dislike. And is that not bullying as well? Is it ever appropriate to call someone an ass? You’re above that. As Christians, we’re called to be above such petty name calling, and insulting. We’re called to a standard. That goes for anyone calling someone else an “ass”, as Christians, we should be using language that reflects our beliefs. Calling someone a fool is different, if it has the right credentials and is a true statement, then say it. Jesus tells us to be careful with calling someone a fool, because that’s a “heavy” accusation. But if you’ve truly determined someone as that, then worry not about condemnation because if you calling someone that is biblically sound, than it is right. Remember, cast a righteous judgement. God doesn’t say, don’t judge, he warns us not to judge by our standards, rather compare to the Bible and what it says, then evaluate/judge; aka a righteous judgement. I’ll post a link to my blog talking about judging and what it means if you’d like further reading into what and how we’re called to judge our fellow brothers and sisters. Calling someone a fool is’t wrong, as long as its a righteous judgement(not self righteous).
RichardGelinalynne0652 Actually Richard, the unpardonable sin, per Jesus, is attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to satan. So technically lynne0652 should be in the clear – though still…
_JoshuaAbbott
Joshua, you have not read my message at all, nor does it appear that you are aware that it is Richard who introduced the words “bully” and “ass” into this thread when he called Kent these horrid, uncalled for names. Did you not see all the offensive direct quotes from Richard that I listed in my post? Those were HIS statements, not mine.
Surely, you don’t intend on defending his crude insulting language and treatment of other posters here do you?
And, you are right – I am well above such language, as is everyone else here apparently, except for the emotionally charged and severely misfiring Richard Gelina.
If you read his comments you will see that Richard goes on to say that he will “wear the label bully and ass with pride because Jesus said this would happen to those who followed him”.
That is a direct quote from Richard several comments above. Did you see it? I was just correcting him by giving chapter and verse in the bible where Jesus said his disciples would be hated, reviled, etc., but Jesus never said they would be labeled “bully and ass”, or any Aramaic equivalent of those words. Richard would have to carry that distinction without validation from Christ.
Please, Joshua, know who has said what in these comments – it’s ugly enough without you attributing Richard’s foul language to other people, for heaven’s sake.
And yes, there are times, especially when the offense is so glaring and strangling to the work of the HS, that we are led to admonish one another in His name. Praise God!
So Matthew, it would appear, (if this thread is any indication), that NO! we can’t all just “calm the duck down”! Too many riled-up legalists straining gnats and swallowing camels. Pity, isn’t it? Great article and thanks for posting your very reasonable thoughts.
Oh, come Jesus!
lynne0652 Okay; this thread has gotten WAY off the beaten path. This article was about the relative rights of two parties to their opinions, where those rights may have been exceeded, and how we deal when those rights conflict. The “legalists” are entitled to their opinions too. What so many of them, myself and Phil included, are being lambasted for (ironically in an allegedly Christian forum) is presenting and adhering to what is not an opinion at all; that God, while He certainly loves the individuals engaging in it, finds homosexuality revolting. That’s not “legalism,” it is reality; and not only is it okay to point it out, it’s not okay not to when confronted with the issue.
No, I’ve read your posts in their completeness, and Richards, and everyone else’s. It’s you who misunderstood/didn’t read my post.
First off, let me address the fact that you said you were above such language regarding “bully” and “ass”:
“What makes you an ass and a bully is the way you talk to others.” – via Lynne
Hypocrite. Don’t try to validate your words,they’ve been said and noted. It doesn’t matter who introduced the words first. If one person throws mud on someone and they throw it back are they not both equally covered in mud? You’re just as much at fault, so don’t act so mighty and above him.
Secondly, if you read my post, you’d read that I say “that goes for anyone calling someone else an ‘ass'”. I’m holding everyone accountable, Richard, Kent, you. I’m addressing everyone. I never sai his choice of words were ideal, but his message(s) expresses throughout posts shows me his heart is in the right place. Also, you haven’t read through posts, or didn’t bother with them in their entirety. The insult “ass” has been put out there a couple times now a few times thanks to your turn, by a few people. You should read the WHOLE thread if your going to reference past posts, otherwise you’ll leave stuff out, and appear uneducated in the present topic of the thread.
Also, have you read their last post(s) towards one another? They we’re quite nice and encouraging and neutral. So, hey seem to be doing just fine on their own. I don’t mean to sound so blunt and rude, it’s been a late morning so I’m a little done and ready for sleep, just wanted to get this post in before I left.
lynne0652 _JoshuaAbbott Actually, Lynne – your list of my misstatements included many things I was quoting from Kent. So you, in fact, have not fully read the thread that you are accusing Joshua of not reading.
Here in the country, surrounded by farms, the term “ass” has a very specific meaning. It means someone who is stubborn beyond all reason. Kent was displaying that stubbornness by repeatedly accusing me of untrue things for which he had no evidence. And in doing so repeatedly, when I had already answered those accusations is bullying. So I believe I used the words correctly at that point in the conversation.
However, I think Kent and I have finished that line of conversation when I finally gave a much more direct answer to his questions.
Then you stepped in an made a personal attack based on my blog, which, by the way, is part of Networked Blogs, so the comments go to Facebook rather than my blog except in the rare circumstance that someone is aware of my blog outside of Facebook. After you posted that strange comment about how many people read my blog, I clicked on your Lyvewire link and found that at that time you had posted 11 comments, which received zero likes. I think quite often we attack other people over the things we ourselves feel guilty about. Lack of readership or disagreement with what we say should not be of particular concern to us if we are speaking the word of God, even though our attempts are feeble. God promises that his word will not return void but will accomplish the purpose for which it was sent.
_JoshuaAbbott I have heard your rebuke, Joshua, and respect it. My mother would not have been happy with my use of the word “ass” either. I got a little overheated when i thought I wasn’t being heard. That’s a fault of mine that I should probably work a bit harder at.
And, yes, you’re right. I think Kent and I have come to a place of mutual respect while agreeing to disagree.
_JoshuaAbbottNot to be nitpicky, but my motto here has been “blessed are the peacemakers” from the get go, so no, I’m not responsible for any name calling.
KentStraith _JoshuaAbbott It’s interesting how you and I had settled things before Lynne stepped in and stirred things up again. For the record, you were the first person to cast aspersions on someone else when you called me arrogant. But hopefully we’re past that now and Lynne can take a Prozac or something.
just larry No problem
SueRoediger RichardGelina KentStraith RobDrury I have read volumes on this subject, and I still say when scientists carbon date a dinosaurs leg, and get a date different than the dinosaurs other leg that it makes it a bit hard to believe they can even get close to a date of the earths creation.
KentStraith _JoshuaAbbott lynne0652 RichardGelina Not everyone is fooled. I have a much harder time accepting scientific carbon dating, where they get more than one date on two legs from one poor dinosaur.
But one thing I do know, is God doesn’t lie, nor does He try and trick anyone. As for our moon, how do you know it has been millions of years of bombardment,( hopefully not from carbon dating) how much damage might have been done in 6000 years? Seems like hyperbole to say “with literally every possible evidence.” Not to mention “bombarded by meteoroids for millions of years.”
But the bottom line is that we cannot know the mind of God, all of the questions we have will be answered when we go to be with God, of course it won’t be important to us then, but meanwhile what we need to focus on is not all these little unanswerable questions, instead we need to know we are right with God.
Sleepless in FL KentStraith _JoshuaAbbott lynne0652 RichardGelina
Nicely stated!
Absolutely right, IMHO. If Phil’s comments and statements were to be read completely and in their entirety, there would be cause for alarm, and A&E took the proper stance because there’s no warning prior to the show’s airing: “The opinions and statements made in this program are not necessarily the opinions and views of A&E. This program is for entertainment purposes only. Some of the content can be explicit.” or at least something to that effect.
It makes not difference who we are and where we grew up, as long as God’s grace and wisdom flow through us like a raging river. We must acknowledge ever person with whom we meet, shake a hand or offer a hand to help, and realize that’s what God would do. I agree that Phil is outspoken and has his beliefs about people and it’s his view, not the law or the policies of the land. It’s his own opinion. People tend to forget that an opinion is just like a nose, everyone has one, and that where you stick it really depends on your beliefs and realizations.
Perception, in this day and age, is thrown our the window for fact. These two things are not interchangeable! You perceive with your mind and you see with your eyes. It is the “perception” of Phil’s persecution by A&E that you seem to be adamant about, as if Phil’s getting the shaft. In some ways, he is, but it’s not for you to judge or criticize– it’s what A&E did to try to soften Phil’s opinion by not having him return to the show. It is a reality show, and things get said, but talking to the camera, or in an interview, and letting “your hair down” to get to what you believe is not necessarily the correct course of action, or is it appropriate.
Speeches are one thing, and Phil was not speaking as if he had this great idea and decided to go on a lecturing tour to prophecy his Christian values– Phil’s Christian values– and offer tirade after tirade and tell people how he “sees”, how he *perceives* the world through his eyes and mind. He didn’t and it was an interview. The questions were screened, and Phil answered them the way Phil would. As soon as A&E saw the transcripts of the interview, because that’s how these things work, A&E decided to pull the plug on Phil Robertson’s unadulterated, unedited style of speaking. Remember, Phil was also warned about praying by A&E executives because it might offend the Muslims. Phil was upset over this, but refused to conform with A&E’s request.
Nothing you do, short of the perpetuation of hate and lies, will make you look foolish and unintelligent to others. This is something we can control. Think before you speak. Take you time and formulate your answers to questions that are posed, and try to look better in others’ perception than just what they see,.
RobDrury: How can you say that “God … finds homosexuality revolting”? When have you ever been in Our Creator’s mind and speak from Our Creator’s mouth? You are placing your own revulsion in God’s mouth and that revolts me.
Please speak from your own mouth and NOT God’s. When will you “revolting” Christians realize that YOU DO NOT SPEAK FOR GOD! God will act and speak for Himself.
lynne0652This is NOT the case! Traditional, Biblical marriage also states that a rapist and his victim are married, a man and multiple wives, and a man a woman and several concubines/mistresses is a “traditional marriage”.
Divorce rates are not attributed to pornography and that’s present in many “traditional” marriages. Adultery, neglect and abuse attribute to a small portion of divorce rates in the US. Nothing states that marriage equality is going to take your loving spouse away from you, nor will it. Gays, Lesbians, Bi-sexuals, Transgendered AND Heterosexual people all are God’s children. We should be showing our brothers- and sisters-in-Jesus love, compassion, grace, humility and acceptance. What their sexual preference is none of your concern. Love is a Universal Truth. Love conquers all.
How would you feel if someone asked you: “When did you decide to become heterosexual?” This is the kind of stigma that many in the LGBT community (as a group) have to live with, from the likes of God-fearing Christians. Laws should be passed to further Inalienable Human Rights and bestow upon ALL people, Equal Rights for employment, spousal benefits and marriage (should this be what the LGBT community wants), and not have fearful Christians vying for hateful and restrictive laws that limit or deny those Inalienable Human Rights: the pursuit of Life, Liberty and Happiness!
I’m sorry. All men, and women, in God’s eyes, are created equal. If this statement bothers you, I am truly sorry. This is how I feel and I am a Good Christian. I am also a transgender woman and lesbian. I speak for myself and the thousands of my constituents, colleagues and cohorts that this is the kind of rhetoric that is stalling ENDA in the House and keeping all of us from being able to truly help and reach out to everyone, through God’s Will and God’s Grace.
Understand: This is not a debate against Christians. It is a debate for the morality and the duty all Christians have toward their fellows. To show tolerance. To show acceptance. I’m not expecting you to fully comprehend my change in life, but this is not a change in “lifestyle”: it is a change in “life” that must take place to allow many of us to remain stoic in our beliefs and to remain happy where we are and with what we can call ours.
We are not out for your spouses. We are not out to undermine your own marriage and spousal relationships. This is not our purpose. This never was our purpose. I guess you could say, from the standpoint of someone on the outside looking in, and observing from afar, like so many science-fiction aliens: “We come in peace.” Truly, we do.
And that Christian of us to do so.
KellyDenoyerRussellYou are gravely mistaken, unfortunately. What you have read is true, about the studies in Canada. it’s also been proven in Sweden, the UK, Australia and Japan. We are not trying to force you into understanding what we have been persecuted for and against, but it truly is morally offensive to me, and to many of my LGBT friends and family, as we are all Christians under the same God.
Pedophilia is a crime. Plain and simple. These perverse hypocrites need to be dealt with according to the laws. We in the LGBT community are NOT the perverted sexual deviants, as you suggest. We are not. We have never been that way. Your fear of the unknown, xenophobia, is what’s gripping you and telling you what to believe. This is not Godly nor is it God’s influence. Fear has never been a Godly act.
I am a transgender woman and lesbian. I am a kind and compassionate person, through the Will and Grace of God, and I cannot idly stand by and have you criticize and attack anyone that is like me, learning they are like or that they are being repressed by people like you and your inability to wrap your mind around one simple Godly act: Love. It is stated in the Bible: “Love thy neighbor.” This does NOT mean to castrate yourself before your neighbor and be her slave to all things– this is not the idea– it is to be compassionate, graceful, humble and truthful with your neighbor, showing her love and kindness.
By denying someone their basic needs, employment and residence, you are condemning that person to never be happy, never have a real life and to never understand what it means to have liberty. Human rights are needed to help perpetuate securities in life that you take for granted every day. I’m not here to dispense hateful rhetoric. I’m not here to offend, but I am here to try to open your eyes to the reality of your statements and your perceived fallacy about those statements.
God has never said he wanted you, personally, to be forcing yourself upon others in a sexual manner. This act is amoral and disgusting. You cannot be attain perfection, as God’s Perfection, while holding on to the very notions of hatred and bigotry by denying other humans “Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness” through the use of laws that deny us of our dignity and human rights.
I’m not on a bent or tirade, here. I am not. I am just speaking from the heart and that’s what God would have me do. He speaks to me more than I care to admit, and He’s ALWAYS right. It’s not on anyone to judge anyone else, this is all God’s Realm. I hope you can see and perceive, the idiocy that you are trying to promote, and ask God for His Forgiveness to mend your straying ways. I pray that you will.
RobynnMussell I don’t claim to have inhabited God’s mind or to speak for Him, but in this case I most certainly speak according to direction He has given me quite directly. It is you who is speaking based on personal perception or preference.
He didn’t claim to be in God’s mind. He said what is said in the Bible. He spoke what God has told us trough His word. He claimed what he said as the word of God because he drew his statement directly from the word of God. You have spoken through your preference. He has biblical support in his.
RobynnMussell lynne0652
“Gays, Lesbians, Bi-sexuals, Transgendered AND Heterosexual people all are God’s children.”
As I stated elsewhere in this thread, that depends on how one defines “God’s children.” God defines His children as those who know Him personally through redemption in Christ. It is quite safe to say that relatively very few gays, lesbians, or Bisexuals are His children. At the same time, let me reiterate that I in no way single out homosexuality as anything more significant or heinous than any other sin; but a lifestyle so adamantly centered around sin, or such a blatant ignorance of God’s will is most certainly a strong indicator of a lack of relationship with the Father.
“We should be showing our brothers- and sisters-in-Jesus love, compassion, grace, humility and acceptance.”
I couldn’t agree more; but nothing in this statement in any way justifies lying to them about their lifestyle.
“What their sexual preference is none of your concern.”
Until they attempt to shift societal standards and laws; then it’s absolutely my business.
“Love is a Universal Truth.”
It sure is. Unfortunately, far too few understand love as defined by the God who created, and is, love. Nothing in His definition is consistent with homosexuality.
RobynnMusselllynne0652 thank you ………perfectly stated
RobynnMussell
Hello Robyn – you may have misunderstood my initial comment above. I am not saying that pornography, adultery, neglect and abuse are responsible for high divorce rates. I was not pointing out the causes of divorce at all. I am saying something very different. Please read this post as I try to explain it better and let me know your thoughts.
Here is God’s truth that well-meaning, yet hurtful Christians (who relentlessly take others to task for their gayness) need to focus their attentions on: in this country, (and perhaps the world), there is nothing more destructive to traditional (heterosexual) marriages and to displacing families and harming children than ALL OF THESE that I mentioned – divorce AND adultery AND pornography AND neglect AND abuse. And all of these happen within the Christian community in alarmingly high rates making homosexual activities pale in comparison. The first three are absolutely rampant in our community, and still we preach on and on about godly marriage?
To hear us talk, (in the mainstream Christian majority). you’d think it was gay relationships that are ruining God’s precious marital and familial foundations, but OMG, it is us and our own even far more evil and weightier transgressions that are leading the way.
Generally speaking, for the most part, when prayerful reflection is given this truth, good folks easily recognize their error and hypocrisy and when they recover from the shame of it, their voices change – in both tone and content. We are not required to change what we believe but the more we know God, His Truth and His Love, the less we are compelled to beat anyone up about sin – especially sexual sin. It is time to tend to our own burning homes and let the Lord have His way with this precious hurting segment of our population – our family and friends.
RobynnMussell
I hear you Robyn and I am very glad you are Christian. I believe you! Your heart is in the right place if you honor and seek after the Lord. Our journey with God is the most important relationship in our lives and I pray you can help bring that message of love and hope to your friends.
We all need to come to Him just as we are, sinners in need of The Savior. I trust He will lead you to all Truth as He is leading me also and has been my faithful friend and counselor these past 25 years. I’m so glad He takes away our sin and remembers it no more. I’m glad He gives us His indwelling Holy Spirit so we are now the very righteousness of Christ.
2 Cor 5:21
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
I am glad we are no longer slaves to sin and no longer under the law which is death. I still pour over Romans again and again, esp. chapter 7, to learn more about the law and what it means to be rid of it and yet still there can be sin in my flesh. It’s overwhelming to wrap our heads around it at times, do you think? And even Paul struggled to grasp his new nature in the spirit and all that it meant. Do you have similar struggles as you “work out your salvation with the Holy Spirit”?
Philippians 2:12-13
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
But beyond all these difficulties, surely the beauty and simplicity of Jesus’ fulfillment of all of the law and His giving a New Covenant shines through and over-arches the gospels and the epistles. And the covenant is between Jesus and God – not us – so it cannot be broken. Jesus gave us a new command – beyond even loving each other as we love ourselves, because that kind of love is often a broken, painful love. He commands us now to love others as He loves us. Perfect love, given perfectly. We miss that mark, but hopefully, we come closer and closer every day.
Hebrews 12:24
and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians+3:6&version=ESV
Our sufficiency is from God who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
John 13:34A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.
SueRoediger jnk2
Sue – you are right on track here. If you read the beginning of the chapters in Leviticus, you sometimes see that God is telling Moses to ‘tell Aaron and His sons’ (the priests), but for the most part all of Leviticus is given to all of the people of Israel.
All of the transgressions listed are to be considered sinful, whether they are described as ‘abominations” or not. It’s common in Christendom to make references to various divisions of law with respect to whether or not we are to keep them, or the Jews, or whether Jesus fulfilled them all, or that some are ‘moral’ laws. Jesus fulfilled them ALL.
Matthew 5:17,18
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
See Proverbs 6:16-19 to see what the Lords deems abominable:
These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
An heart that devises wicked imaginations, feet that are swift in running to mischief,
A false witness that speaks lies, and he that sows discord among brethren.
lynne0652SueRoedigerjnk2 so why the hysterical emphasis on just the one “abomination” ?
RobDrury
Rob, you said this: “it’s not okay not to when confronted with the issue.”
I disagree. When there is this much mainstream Christian hypocrisy, confusion and inability to rightfully handle the word of God, and relentless condemnation, isolation and even abuse of LGBTQ folks (who, by the way, are visited with SSA in their innocence – a stark contrast to dirty-handed Christians engaging in porn and adultery in their mature years), then yes Rob, it is VERY OKAY to back off the soapbox a bit.
Maybe folks who really care could take some time to gain a better perspective, more education, more prayerful understanding of the gospel. Spend a little more than the 30 minutes a week thinking and yakking about gays when they see a new FB status or read the latest news tidbit.
These folks are living it 24/7 year in and year out, some don’t make it out alive. And the truth is, they don’t have to change to come to Christ – that is not a requirement that I know of – God wants us to come to Him JUST AS WE ARE. Gay behaviors from committed Christians pale in significance to the vast riches and reward of knowing Him and journeying with Him from now through eternity.
God’s got this one. He doesn’t really need our so called ‘help’, does He?
SueRoediger
Sue – I wish I could answer that for you, definitively. And to your satisfaction…and mine! It’s pretty hairy and complex I guess..I hate that as much as the next person because it really takes the focus off the most important person – Jesus – and puts it on us and our behavior.
Sue, do you have any ideas about why Christian seem to focus there? I think those Proverbs listings are far more applicable to us all and more worthy of God’s disdain. (Even though He holds no more disdain for those He inhabits. Praise God!)
I’m beginning to think it might be two things: #1 Christians are not able nor willing to ‘celebrate enthusiastically’ something we know goes against foundational precepts given by God in the bible, and #2 these sexual matters, these deviations if you will, well, they hit a little too close to home.
Among the many ways God is ministering in, by and through the LGBTQ community, He is also lending them to us as a sort of mirror – we’re getting the message, I think. Slow but sure.
I hope I haven’t offended you by saying any of the above. You have courage to stick it out in this particular ‘den of lions’ where you have not received the best treatment from some folks.
You go girl! And keep pressing on in your journey with God. It’s worth every smile, tear, giggle and frown!
jnk2
Where did you get that? Jesus fulfilled all of the law and the prophets according to his own words in Matthew 5:17, 18.
Where in the bible does it say which laws are ‘moral’ laws?
lynne0652SueRoediger My journey has been strange. I told of it on another entry. I was raised Catholic and there is definitely no place for me there, unless I am willing to call myself “intrinsically disordered: and to live in celibacy or to act straight and marry – which would be torture and disgusting to me. A neighbor was sharing about the church she had found, I said – “there is no church for me as I am a lesbian” She said oh you have to try this place. The first sermon I heard there was about how God is “a stubborn kind of God, who – though you are lost – will seek you out and bring you back home” – It was as if her was talking about me. This church interprets things in a way make a place for me and those like me. Others on this page have said that God does not love us all . God hates sinners and only loves those who are “saved” …………but each denomination thinks theirs is the :one true faith”…… your voice is SO refreshing
Over simplification and I guess the author got his article read. Not impressive!
SueRoediger lynne0652 If someone said God doesn’t love us all, they don’t know what they are talking about. God does love us all, and He wants us to all come to Him and repent our sins. He hates sin, ANY sin, and other than the Unpardonable sin (blaspheming the Holy Spirit) all sin is forgivable. It takes only us being willing to turn away from our sin, to change our way of looking at things, for us to be forgiven.I feel sure you probably don’t look at your lifestle as being sin, I had never looked at my overeating as sin, but it is. When we put what we want, ahead of our relationship with God, we are making a god of our sin. There is not one degree of difference in your sin or mine. Both are forgivable, as long as we turn away from that sin, and turn towards God. Some people on this board seem to think homosexuality is somehow worse than other sins, it is NOT, When Jesus was once talking about sin, the one sin He mentioned twice, was being a liar. Is there ANYONE on this board that has NEVER told a lie?
GOD DOES LOVE ALL US SINNERS, HE JUST HATES SIN< NOT SINNERS!!!!!
lynne0652jnk2 You can understand this when you read the Bible as a “whole” and not by
taking single scriptures by themselves to form a belief or doctrine.
The Bible says (Isaiah 28:9-10) “Whom shall he teach
knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are
weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be
upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here
a little, and there a little:”
This
is saying to have true understanding of His Word will require study and
devotion to His Word. True understanding is not for the casual or
occasional reader of the Bible, but for the student of the Bible. True
knowledge is found “precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little
and there a little”.
You must use Scripture to interpret Scripture. The rest of the Bible
will explain to you what a single verse means. It will not contradict
the rest of the Bible….they will agree. By the way, most Bible
scholars agree to this “rule” for the formation of a doctrine. It is
not formed by a single scripture.
When
God said, in multiple places, “I change not” (or the equivalent), then
you can form a doctrine of an unchanging God, a God who is forever the
same. This, as I mentioned in the first post, is referring to God’s
nature. He can change how He relates to man, but that is not the same
as God changing His nature or His characteristics. As stated in the
first post, many things were established by God prior to any “formal”
law, such as the Mosaic law, to which Jesus was referring (the law and
the prophets). Jesus fulfilling these things do NOT however, change the
nature of God (remember, He said that He does not change). So if God
stated His position on something and called it an abomination to HIM, it
is and will forever be an abomination to Him. In Genesis, God
established what a marriage is and what He wants a relationship to
be….one man and one woman. Jesus spoke of this when pressed by the
Pharisees about divorce. He said “in the beginning” (Matt. 19 &
Mark 10) God made them man and woman, leave their parents and become
“one flesh”. This is God’s plan for marriage – it was in the beginning,
it was in Jesus’ day as he said, and it is today. This was not part of
the Law of Moses. And before anyone mentions it, yes, he was speaking
of divorce here, which is still wrong today. Just because a lot of
Christians today divorce, doesn’t mean that it is OK.
To
answer your original question, No…the Bible doesn’t say which laws
are “moral laws” in those exact words, but if you read the WHOLE Bible
in context (many today read out of context), the Bible definitely
teaches these things.
Jesus spoke about parables (read
Mark 4) to his disciples and explained that he did not INTEND for people
to understand parables. “And the disciples came, and said unto Him, Why do
you speak unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them,
Because it is given unto YOU to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but unto them it is NOT given.”
(Matt 13:10-11) Jesus actually HID the meaning of his teachings from
the masses. In Luke, ““Let these sayings sink down into your ears. . .
But
they understood NOT this saying, and it was HID from them, and they
perceived it NOT; and they feared to ask Him of that saying.” (Luke
9:44,45) Also, “Then He took unto Him the twelve, and said unto
them, Behold we go up to Jerusalem, and ALL THINGS that are written by
the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. . . and they understood NONE of these things: and this saying was HID from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.” (Luke 18:31-34)
Just before Jesus was crucified, the Bible says “Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures.” (Luke 24:45)
God’s
intention is that we passionately study His word to gain knowledge that
is hidden from us. This will not be given to the casual reader. He
will reveal His word to us.
I
have seen over and over the argument made that because Christians make a
big deal about homosexuality and not other issues, that somehow this
magically makes homosexuality OK. ALL sins are equally wrong and will
send an unrepentant person to Hell, but making one a big deal and not
another doesn’t in anyway make the “big deal” less of a sin. That’s not
even remotely logical. I agree, that Christians often “categorize”
sins, which they shouldn’t do, but how does this make homosexuality, not
a sin just because someone ignores divorce, or lying or any other sin?
We can’t “explain away” the biblical fact that homosexuality is a sin
and God called it an abomination to HIM. If God “changes not” then how
could He possibly be OK with it today? Otherwise, He has changed and
violated His own Word.
lynne0652SueRoedigerjnk2I believe I made the distinction between what He said was an abomination to Him and what was an abomination to YOU (speaking of Israel). I never implied that none of these things were sinful. They were in fact ALL sins if you transgressed those things.
My point was that Jesus fulfilled the “law and prophets”, but these things that are an abomination to HIM (to God) do not change, they are, in fact, still an abomination to God today, because He changes not. He instituted marriage in Genesis between one man and one woman and this transcends the Law of Moses and the words of the prophets. Jesus did not fulfill any law as it pertains to marriage or homosexuality.
lynne0652SueRoedigerjnk2So this verse in Psalms is supposed to cancel out other places where God Himself told us things that He considers an abomination? How do you arrive at that conclusion?
SueRoedigerlynne0652jnk2 I have given no “hysterical” emphasis as you said on homosexuality being an abomination. The emphasis was made as soon as this article was posted. If you like I can “emphasize” many other sins, so as not to be “hysterical”, but this is the topic of discussion on this page. I think your description of me as “hysterical” is hysterical.
lynne0652SueRoedigerActually Jesus said a LOT about us and our behavior. He called them sins. It was important to Him that we do NOT sin. So, it is actually important that we discuss sin and not ignore it.
Sleepless in FLSueRoedigerlynne0652 just as it is not sinful to be left handed, because that is natural and normal for a left handed person…………it is not a sin to be homosexual. The high ideals of the bible (like loving God and our neighbor) may be inspired – but certain details are limited by the ignorance of the times. The bible talks of the sky as firmament (like a dome) over the earth, and says the sun moves across the sky, it says the eating of certain foods is an abomination. We have learned a lot since then. The treatment of left handed people has changed from trying to change their evil and defiant aberrant ways to acceptance. The same is true of people who God has made as homosexual.
SueRoediger Sleepless in FL lynne0652 The XYY genome is also a “natural thing.” I guess serial killers were just made that way, so what they do is perfectly acceptable to God.
BTW, the Bible is the absolute Word of God. It reflects no ignorance.
RobDrurySueRoedigerSleepless in FLlynne0652Rob: We have to allow for the possibility of errors, omissions, and mistranslation of the Bible. Granting the premise that the ‘original’ texts were the directly inspired Word of God, the current Bible makes the following claims:
Matt.19:26 – “…with God, all things are possible.”
Judges 1:19 – “And the LORD was with Judah; and he drove out the inhabitants of the
mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because
they had chariots of iron.”
Mark 15:25 – “And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.”
John 19:14-16 – “…about the sixth hour…they cried out…crucify
him….Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified.”
2 Kings 24:8 – “Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months.”
2 Chron. 36:9 – “Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to
reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem…”
2 Kings 8:26 – ““Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign…”
2 Chron. 22:2 – “Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign…”
2 Sam. 6:23 – “Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death”
2 Samuel 21:8 – “But the king took…the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul”
1 Kings 4:26 – “And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots…”
2 Chron. 9:25 – “And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots…”
Matt 1:16 – “And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus…”
Luke 3:23 – “And Jesus…the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli”
Gen 22:1 – “And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham…”
James 1:13 – “..for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.”
Gen 32:30 – “…for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.”
John 1:18 – “No man hath seen God at any time…”
Now, all that to say, let’s show a little moderation in what the Bible is and what the Bible is not. Namely, inerrant. If each and every one of these is written off as “context” or “multiple people with the same name”, we’re on very dangerous ground, and the Bible can say, literally, anything you want it to say.
KentStraith RobDrury SueRoediger
lynne0652 i DON’T AGREE WITH YOU , on so many levels. First you are taking verses and compairing them to other verses all out of context. That is what people do when they want to make the Bible say what they want it to say. The Bible is the INERRANT word of God. This doesn’t mean there have NEVER been human mistakes. But those mistakes get corrected. The Bible I read has been gone over not only by english scholars, but Jewish scholars as well.
.I believe God is incapable of telling a lie. that he is omnipodent, infallible, omnipresent. If He is all these things doesn’t it follow that He could get His book to us in just the form He meant for it to be? I believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God.
T1. No! It was how God told Bible believers He counted Ahaziah among the wicked kings of Israel, and not among the kings of Judah, so they would know why Jehu killed him when cutting off the house of Ahab (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/II%20Chron%2022.7).
2. No! It was how God told Bible believers He counted Ahaziah among the wicked kings of Israel, and not among the kings of Judah, so they would know why He removed Ahaziah, his son, and his grandson from the lineage of Jesus Christ (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Matt%201.8).
3. No! It was to test whether men believe God and his word or the “research” of textual critics, commentators, and seminary professors. As Jesus gloriously thanked His Father, God has hid such things from the wise and prudent and revealed them unto babes (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Matt%2011.25-26).
4. No! It was how God showed any Bible with “22” in http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/II%20Chronicles%2022.2 is not His word. He exposed the liars that worship the “originals” but change them whenever they wish! And He exposed any preacher or commentator by their submission or rebellion to http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/II%20Timothy%202.15.This is to refute just one of your choices of a mistake in the scriptures….
lynne0652 jnk2 The Bible presents two laws: one changeless and eternal, the other provisional and temporary. One presents the duty of man to God and to his fellow men, the other was given because of man’s disobedience to God’s requirements.
The Moral Law
The moral law of the Ten Commandments is an expression of God’s character; it is the standard of all righteousness, an expression of His will. The Holy Bible was written by men under inspiration of God. “For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost” (2 Peter 1:21). The moral law of the Ten Commandments was not given by inspiration, but was written by God’s own finger on tables of stone. “And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them” (Exodus 24:12). “And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God” (Exodus 31: 18). See the Moral Law (Exodus 20:3-17) and (Deuteronomy 5:7-22).
The moral law is the embodiment of two great principles: Love toward our Creator and love toward our neighbor. When a lawyer asked Christ “Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets” (Matthew 22:36-40). The transgression of the moral law is called sin. Therefore, “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law” (1 John 3:4).
Of the moral law Jesus says, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:17-19).
Sleepless in FLKentStraithRobDrurySueRoedigerlynne0652All due respect, but your reply is clearly insane. No, God did not put “trap” scriptures in among the “real” scriptures as a test of faith and expect us to discover and ignore them. The Bible is not the obstacle course on Double Dare. There are, clearly and unarguably (except by the very desperate) errors in the modern Bible that cannot be explained away. The verses I quoted here are from a Bible that is being handed out (for free) at my church currently. These are not old, since corrected errors.
SueRoediger Sleepless in FL lynne0652 The Bible does present a cosmological model of the universe, although, being a spiritual guide rather than a scientific one, it is not overly detailed. Even so, it is scientifically accurate. Overall, the Bible presents God as the Creator of the entire universe (matter, energy, space, and time). It makes the following audacious claims, which contradicted the prevalent ancient cosmologies, but have been confirmed by modern science:Time had a beginning.http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/dome_of_heavens.html#n29The universe had a beginning.http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/dome_of_heavens.html#n30The universe was created from the invisible.http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/dome_of_heavens.html#n31The dimensions of the universe were created.http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/dome_of_heavens.html#n32The universe is expanding.http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/dome_of_heavens.html#n33Creation of matter and energy has ended in the universe (refutes steady-state theory).http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/dome_of_heavens.html#n34The universe is winding down and will “wear out” (second law of thermodynamics ensures that the universe will run down due to “heat death”-maximum entropy).http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/dome_of_heavens.html#n35
Contrary to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, the Bible does not say that the earth is the center of the universe, but that the universe actually controls the earth.http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/dome_of_heavens.html#n36 In addition, the Bible correctly identifies the order of creation.http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/dome_of_heavens.html#n37 The Bible’s description of the heavens comprise three different areas – the three “heavens.” Of these heavens, the third heaven is God’s abode,http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/dome_of_heavens.html#n38 which is not part of the physical universe.http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/dome_of_heavens.html#n39 The second heaven is also called “the highest heavens,” and contains the stars.http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/dome_of_heavens.html#n40 The first heaven is the atmosphere – the raqia or biblical expanse, in which the birds flyhttp://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/dome_of_heavens.html#n10 and clouds form to produce rain.http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/dome_of_heavens.html#n41Conclusion
Although many ancients did believe in a solid dome heaven, the claims that the Bible espouse this view are shown to be false. Skeptics who make these claims rely upon poor English translations of the original Hebrew verses, taken out of context, in order to “prove” that the Bible teaches a false cosmology. In contrast, this page shows that the Bible teaches an advanced cosmology that was not fully verified until the 20th century.
SueRoediger Sleepless in FL lynne0652 And I will say again, being a homosexual is not a sin, acting on those feeling is the sin. Just as my wanting to overeat is not the sin, acting on those feelings, that is the sin. Any sin that takes us away from God, that we put before God, that is the sin.
RobDrury SueRoediger Sleepless in FL lynne0652 Are you saying the XYY genome causes SERIAL KILLER’S?
RobDrury SueRoediger Sleepless in FL lynne0652 What is 47,XYY syndrome?
47,XYY syndrome is characterized by an extra copy of the Y chromosome in each of a male’s cells. Although males with this condition may be taller than average, this chromosomal change typically causes no unusual physical features. Most males with 47,XYY syndrome have normal sexual development and are able to father children.
47,XYY syndrome is associated with an increased risk of learning disabilities and delayed development of speech and language skills. Delayed development of motor skills (such as sitting and walking), weak muscle tone (hypotonia), hand tremors or other involuntary movements (motor tics), and behavioral and emotional difficulties are also possible. These characteristics vary widely among affected boys and men.
A small percentage of males with 47,XYY syndrome are diagnosed with autistic spectrum disorders, which are developmental conditions that affect communication and social interaction.How common is 47,XYY syndrome?
This condition occurs in about 1 in 1,000 newborn boys. Five to 10 boys with 47,XYY syndrome are born in the United States each day.What are the genetic changes related to 47,XYY syndrome?
People normally have 46 chromosomes in each cell. Two of the 46 chromosomes, known as X and Y, are called sex chromosomes because they help determine whether a person will develop male or female sex characteristics. Females typically have two X chromosomes (46,XX), and males have one X chromosome and one Y chromosome (46,XY).
47,XYY syndrome is caused by the presence of an extra copy of the Y chromosome in each of a male’s cells. As a result of the extra Y chromosome, each cell has a total of 47 chromosomes instead of the usual 46. It is unclear why an extra copy of the Y chromosome is associated with tall stature, learning problems, and other features in some boys and men.
Some males with 47,XYY syndrome have an extra Y chromosome in only some of their cells. This phenomenon is called 46,XY/47,XYY mosaicism.
KentStraith Sleepless in FL RobDrury SueRoediger lynne0652 Wow, you just really must want to argue, and I do not. There were no traps in what I said. I also am not desperate, and I guess we will have to wait til we are in Heaven to see who is right. But my God doesn’t make mistakes, so if he doesn’t make mistakes, it would follow that He could get His word to us without mistakes. That doesn’t seem to me to be “desperate” in any way.
Also “All due respect, but your reply is clearly insane” doesn’t seem to be anything except possibly an oxymoron, unless indeed you do respect insane replies.
Finally, as a Christian of over 50 years, I will not name call or call you or your remarks insane, that my dear is between you and God. God Bless You, you are in my prayers.
Sleepless in FLKentStraithRobDrurySueRoedigerlynne0652Listen closely. There are **direct contradictions** in Scripture. There are multiple instances of Scripture saying two things, one of which, by the definition of reality, cannot be true. The list I presented contains only some of these. God does not make errors, and is certainly capable of getting his Word to us intact. The Bible has a great many errors (at least in the English language). What conclusion does this lead to? Joseph cannot be the son of two men. A king cannot begin to rule at age 8…AND at age 18.
Sleepless in FL RobDrury SueRoediger lynne0652 No; I’m relating this to Sue’s insistence that God creates homosexuals. Those who hold this view commonly cite genetic differences between homosexuals and heterosexuals. ” The XYY genome has been well documented and linked to a tendency toward psychopathic behavior and heinous violence. Most of the noted serial killers in modern history have been found with this abnormality.
God has never made a homosexual; He created mankind, who chose to rebel and set a legacy of sin. Homosexuality is a direct result of that legacy.
lynne0652 RobDrury
Lynne, you make some great points. Mainstream Christianity is full of
hypocrisy and perversion; that’s because if this weren’t true, it wouldn’t be “mainstream.”
You must remember that this is satan’s world. He has been given temporary rule
over it by God. What he cannot control directly, he will pervert and confuse.
This would explain such things as world leaders who are not only corrupt and
self-serving, but remain popular despite the transparency of their corruption.
Hitler wasn’t merely tolerated; he was loved by the masses well into his
atrocities. Barack Obama has been elected president – twice. Enough said.
Slavery was not only legal in the freest nation in the world; it was popularly
condoned and often justified by twisting God’s Word. Most working adults today were alive at a time
when the medical and scientific community still adamantly categorized
homosexuality as a psychological disorder. What’s changed? Absolutely nothing,
except that the abnormalities that were once used to identify it as a disorder
are now being cited as evidence that it is a natural state, and therefore, “normal.”
It is, perhaps, as “normal” as cancer or
a physical handicap; it is at best a disease.
God’s got this one? Just like He’s got disease, crime, corruption, and
natural disasters? He absolutely does not need our help, but He most certainly demands
it. There is not one problem in this world that He couldn’t eradicate instantly.
Again, He put satan in charge, and He has a reason for it. We are to face
trials, tribulations, and tests for one reason only; because eventually we will
need to rely totally upon Him. In the meantime, we are charged with caring for
our brothers. This includes treating them with compassion, feeding them when
they’re hungry, teaching them the truth, and admonishing them when they stray
from it.
RobDrurySleepless in FLSueRoedigerlynne0652 until about 30 years or so ago, catholic schools would not allow children to write left-handed. Centuries ago, the Catholic Church declared left-handed people to be servants of the Devil. For generations, left-handers who attended Catholic schools were forced to become right-handed. They justified this belief on the basis of several bible quotations that stigmatized left-handedness.
There are also quite a few superstitions about being left-handed. It wasn’t until we realized, in the last half-century or so, that there are legitimate biological reasons for left-handedness, that people were no longer forced to use their right hand
There is evidence that sexual orientation is like handedness, You are free to choose to live your life based on the notions of an ancient text. I choose to look for fact and evidence. In addition I do have a conscience and I knew what sin is………….. I am not “intrinsically disordered” as the catholic church outs it. Believe what you wish……just do not judge me or preach to me.
RobDrurylynne0652 you credibility is vastly impaired he you compare Our President to Hitler . shame on you
RobDrurylynne0652 Correcting my clumsy fingers — obviously I meant “your” and “when”
SueRoedigerRobDrurySleepless in FLlynne0652I’m curious as to which verses have been used to condemn left-handedness…..I’ve never heard of that. Thanks.
SueRoedigerSleepless in FLlynne0652You have justified here that homosexuality is not sinful because it is not a sin to be left-handed. How did you reach this conclusion? Is there a biblical comparison made between the two? These 2 things are independent of each other. I would certainly agree that the Bible does NOT condemn anyone for being left-handed, but being left-handed cannot define, validate, justify, etc, etc, being or not being homosexual. I fail to see the relationship here. If you decide to answer, I am looking for biblical support on this. Thanks.
lynne0652SueRoedigerjnk2The key in the words of Jesus here is “I did not come to destroy”. Most people quote that He fulfilled the Law, but He made a point to also say that He did not come to destroy the Law. Most people use the “fulfillment”part and define that as destroying the Law, which Jesus specifically said He did NOT do. So, there is a difference made.
http://www.livefyre.com/profile/28656807/RobynnMussellActually when discussing what is or isn’t sin, people usually recommend speaking from God’s Word and quoting what He DID say about it, rather than just spouting our own opinions. My opinion and your opinion isn’t really worth too much. This may be the first time I’ve seen someone actually say “Please speak from your own mouth and NOT God’s.” That’s very interesting….
Rob Drury was actually saying what God said….not his own opinion about it. God said specifically “Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.” (Leviticus 18:22)
By definition, “abomination” means:
a•bom•i•na•tion (əˌbɒm əˈneɪ ʃən)
n. 1. something greatly disliked or abhorred. 2. intense aversion or loathing; detestation. 3. a vile or shameful action, condition, or habit.
lynne0652RobDruryYou are correct….you don’t have to change to come to Christ, BUT in order to be saved requires 1st repentance of sins. And TRUE repentance means to turn AWAY from those sins. Jesus told the woman caught in the act of adultery, “Go, and sin NO MORE.” If change wasn’t required, he would have said simply, “Go.”
lynne0652How does someone else committing sin (adultery, pornography, neglect, abuse) let you off the hook for your own sins? The Bible teaches that God will hold each of us responsible for our OWN sins. If I believe that homosexuality is wrong, then does that allow me to say, “Well, because Lynne is gay and committing sin, then I’m not responsible for my sin of, lets say (hypothetically!) adultery? Of course not! We need to stop justifying sins by pointing out another persons sins. The Bible doesn’t support forgiveness of sin by pointing at another sin.
jnk2SueRoedigerSleepless in FLlynne0652 While there is no particular biblical proscription regarding left handedness – in biblical times it was commonly held that there was something wrong with people who used their left hand dominantly. It was considered abnormal, and it is not actually “normal” since only about 10-12 percent of people are left handed. It is a recessive trait that tends to run in families As late as the 1950’s people tried to change kid’s handedness, aggressively. Kids were hit or had their hands tied to their sides. Some religious leaders in earlier times considered it evil, or from the devil.
My comparison was that as we have learned that left handedness is a normal difference that can be accepted – we can also acknowledge sexual orientation to be different in certain individuals and still be not evil or from the devil. Homosexuality also tends to run in families, and is found in just under 10 percent of people. If you want to live by your interpretation of an ancient text – fine – but in these times we have gained knowledge about many practices . and many of us follow science.
Religious denominations do not get to make civil law.
RobDrurySleepless in FLSueRoedigerlynne0652 Your reality and your beliefs are yours. It is not your place to make law or set policies based on your reading of the bible. Live your life as you choose, and let others live as they believe
jnk2RobynnMussell What about all the other “abominations in Leviticus?
Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations.
working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death.
hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27.
Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we stone them? – Lev. 24:10-16.
and the ones about shellfish and pork and other foods that are abominations?
SueRoediger RobDrury lynne0652 Well, you apparently fail to recognize Obama as the true personification of evil that he is, and you consider homosexuality as normal. So much for credibility. No need for shame; it’s not my fault the truth hurts.
RobDrurySueRoedigerlynne0652 why do you say Obama is “evil”?
SueRoediger RobDrury lynne0652 OMG! Really?
Who cares what the Catholic church says? The Vatican has historically proven itself to this day to be nothing but a self-serving heresy; and given your description of your current congregation, it appears that you’ve found more of the same, just a different agenda.
RobDrurySueRoedigerlynne0652 yes really………specifically….from your perspective
SueRoediger RobDrury Sleepless in FL lynne0652 Again, when I’m discussing “my reality,” I address it as such. I’m limiting this to God’s reality.
RobDrurySueRoedigerlynne0652 as to the normalcy of homosexuality ………..as with most thing human there is a “range of normal” and from what I can tell there is truth in my statement that this is normal for me. I seems disgusting to you because that is not how you are wired. Being with a man is disgusting to me……feels very wrong, I imagine it is the way you would feel if a guy wanted to kiss you
Sleepless in FLSueRoedigerlynne0652 I think I understand what you are trying to say and I appreciate your respectful tone. However being gay is not like overeating. It is more like being right or left handed. Just as attraction to opposite sex people is natural and normal for you…..for a gay person their same sex attraction is right for them. When a gay person considers relations with an opposite sex person the reaction is like what you likely feel when thinking of being in a same sex relationship.
I was raised with a strong sense of right and wrong and I know when I am doing wrong …………
RobDrurySueRoedigerlynne0652 Unless you’re doing this to entertain yourselves at this point, there’s no point in going forward with Rob. Anyone who uses “personification of evil” about an elected American President is obviously some kind of zealot, and you could show him forty two photos of Obama helping old ladies across the street and personally feeding orphans, and I promise you, it would not make a difference.
KentStraith RobDrury SueRoediger lynne0652 I am not a zealot, I am even a Democrat, although I didn’t vote for Mr. Obama either time. It had nothing to do with his race, it had to do with his inexperience. But after paying attention to what our president has said, and done I wouldn’t believe anything he said. Now it is true that being an intelligent person I take anything a politician says with more than just a grain of salt, but when the President hires thugs , or czars or whatever you call them to stick their noses in my business totally bypassing the congress and senate, that may not be the personification of evil, but it is a total disregard for what is right. So while I disagree with quite a bit of what Rob has said, it really is just semantics. Oh, BTW, after being a Democrat for all of my voting life, President Obama, and the specter of having Hillary Clinton run for president, means I am changing parties.
Sleepless in FLKentStraithRobDrurySueRoedigerlynne0652Personally I find it highly unlikely you’ve ever been anything approaching what I would call a Democrat, but anything is possible. The “thugs” you refer to are policy department heads, and have existed in this country since the 1930s. Only in America is there this kind of rampant, irrational paranoia.
KentStraith Sleepless in FL RobDrury SueRoediger lynne0652 I find it highly unlikely that we can have a conversation if you insist in using sweeping generalizations and hyperbole. I am 66 years old, I have voted in every election as a Democrat, until Mr Obama, who I felt did not have the experience we needed at such a time in history. I think I have been proved right, repeatedly. Now I have no way of knowing what you consider a Democrat, but I think my voting record alone should prove that was what I was. I am no longer a party line follower because what I see now is a Democratic party I know longer know or understand. The idea that Hillary Clinton could even be considered as presidential material just shows how low our expectations have become.The 2012 Benghazi attack, and the things Mrs. Clinton said would be reason enough for a sane person not to vote for her for dog catcher, but President, it boggles my mind.
I certainly do take issue with your statement” Only in America is there this kind of rampant, irrational paranoia” It is certainly NOT only in America where citizens don’t trust their governments, I would be hard pressed to come up with a handful that don’t. As for paranoia, if you are reading, watching and listening to what is being said by our government on a daily basis there is much reason to be paranoid. In 65 years of my life I never owned a gun, but I bought one last year, and I have always been against having a firearm in the house, but for the first time in my life I see things happening that lead an even halfway intelligent person to know major change is coming to America, and it is coming fast, and it will not be good.
Oh, and as far as the czar remark I made, just for an example, Republican George Bush had czars, all but 2 were vetted by the senate, 8 of Obama’s are not vetted
Sleepless in FLKentStraithRobDrurySueRoedigerlynne0652 It seems likely to me that you are a rather avid viewer of Fox News, as as such, no, you’re likely not a Democrat.
RobDrury
“Mainstream Christianity is full of hypocrisy and perversion; that’s because if this weren’t true, it wouldn’t be “mainstream.” You must remember that this is satan’s world.”
So, what is your point there? That Satan is responsible for the mainstream Christian hypocrisy and confusion which relentlessly beats down the gays?
I won’t necessarily argue with that, although you give him more credit than he is due. Man has enough pride and ignorance on his own without Satan’s help, and obviously, it does not disappear so easily after salvation.
KentStraith Sleepless in FL RobDrury SueRoediger lynne0652 Again you would be wrong, I seek out the news, I do not watch any news or read any newspapers, I don’t need anyone to tell me what is going on, it is all out there for everyone to see, if they will just open their eyes. But I don’t even know why I waste my time answering you, you are all about quips, and attacking people, seems like you are a very unhappy man. I have been a Democrat since John Kennedy, I was too young to vote for him, but even at 16 I knew he was different, but to compare JFK to what passes for a Democrat now, I would have to drink the koolaid, and I am not willing to do that.. You want to believe that the Democrats are looking out for you, that is your business. I am not looking for any politician to look out for me, I will take care of myself and my family. You think Obama has your back, enjoy your koolaid.
MichelleVillers DevonGalleySleepless in FL
Y’all need to study more ancient Roman culture.
The Bible pretty explicitly states that the centurion BEGS on behalf of his servant, meaning this particular servant was VERY special to him. There is only one reasonable explanation for this. Most often in the case of a Roman centurion, pais (Matthew) would refer to a shield servant. We know for a fact that Roman soldiers had homoerotic relationships with adolescent boys, their shield servants in particular—it’s a central plot point in Satyricon (one of only two partially surviving Roman novels). Luke refers to the boy as the centurion’s “entimos doulos”, meaning “most honored servant”. In ancient Roman society, a “most honored servant” was one chosen for intimate and sexual encounters.
mrchumba DevonGalleySleepless in FL
Y’all need to study more ancient Roman culture.
The Bible
pretty explicitly states that the centurion BEGS on behalf of his
servant, meaning this particular servant was VERY special to him. There
is only one reasonable explanation for this. Most often in the case of
a Roman centurion, pais (Matthew) would refer to a shield servant. We
know for a fact that Roman soldiers had homoerotic relationships with
adolescent boys, their shield servants in particular—it’s a central plot
point in Satyricon (one of only two partially surviving Roman novels).
Luke refers to the boy as the centurion’s “entimos doulos”, meaning
“most honored servant”. In ancient Roman society, a “most honored
servant” was one chosen for intimate and sexual encounters.
Sleepless in FL DevonGalley
Y’all need to study more ancient Roman culture.
The Bible
pretty explicitly states that the centurion BEGS on behalf of his
servant, meaning this particular servant was VERY special to him. There
is only one reasonable explanation for this. Most often in the case of
a Roman centurion, pais (Matthew) would refer to a shield servant. We
know for a fact that Roman soldiers had homoerotic relationships with
adolescent boys, their shield servants in particular—it’s a central plot
point in Satyricon (one of only two partially surviving Roman novels).
Luke refers to the boy as the centurion’s “entimos doulos”, meaning
“most honored servant”. In ancient Roman society, a “most honored
servant” was one chosen for intimate and sexual encounters.
DevonGalley mrchumba Sleepless in FL
OK. Some servants were used for homoerotic relationships.
Still, the word is also used to describe strictly platonic relationships. Relationships that, if ended by death, could be upsetting. (i.e. a business partner, a college buddy, a coworker of 15+ years).
It doesn’t seem like very good logic to assume that because some Roman soldier relationships were homoerotic therefore all relationships in which the men are so close that one begs for the life of another one are homoerotic relationships.
mrchumba DevonGalleySleepless in FLYet it is logical, since Luke uses entimos doulos. That’s the hammer hitting the nail. Otherwise Luke would have simply used pais or some other similar word. But he didn’t.